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Projects And Transportation => Northeast Ohio Projects & Construction => Topic started by: KJP on December 12, 2004, 11:45:22 AM

Title: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: KJP on December 12, 2004, 11:45:22 AM
http://www.cleveland.com/business/plaindealer/index.ssf?/base/business/1102761172230871.xml (http://www.cleveland.com/business/plaindealer/index.ssf?/base/business/1102761172230871.xml)

Developer of $170 million Flats project wants Cleveland to chip in for fix-up
Sunday, December 12, 2004
Corwin Thomas
Plain Dealer Columnist

Recently filed requests for public money to assist in the financing of a $170 million mixed-use development on the east bank of the Flats have revealed additional details of the proposal.

According to the 2005 State Capital Budget Requests, Scott Wolstein, who owns a majority of the land and is the developer behind the project, wants Cleveland to contribute $20 million over several years for infrastructure improvements - including new and reconfigured streets and sidewalks, utility relocation and reconstruction, and construction of a new, publicly owned riverfront boardwalk.

The state has already set aside $3 million for the project.

Wolstein declined to comment.
.........
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: FerrariEnzo on December 12, 2004, 01:03:44 PM
I was hoping for more residential units.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: pcforsgren on December 12, 2004, 01:30:39 PM
Yeah but if this project comes to fruition and goes well, I could see demand bringing more residential units to the rest of the flats.  Either way, this is exciting stuff.  I think the city needs to do all they can to make this happen and return the east bank to prominence again.  I like what I'm hearing as far as commerical property - a full service grocery downtown, movie theaters and bookstore would help continue to increase the allure of downtown living. 
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: MyTwoSense on December 12, 2004, 01:46:16 PM
Nice project.

However, why do we need close to 2k additional parking spaces downtown?  More resedential unites are preferred with the message to use public transporation in this high density area.

The waterfront line is at your door step!

why movie theatres?  towercity is a few blocks away!

These two items I do not like nor do I understand the need.

I agree with improving the infrastructure and a grocery store, but not more parking - its the last thing downtown needs.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: mrnyc on December 12, 2004, 02:48:51 PM
i think the 2k parking garage is rather forward thinking infrastructure that will be needed. maybe not all just for residents but for events and visitors. if they build it creatively and with street level retail or whatever business on the ground level it would be fine (like the new garage going up on lower euclid).

another movie theater? heck yeah why not? whats wrong with more than one downtown? maybe a small screen or two of this theater could be for cinemateque or cedar-lee type fare or retro or digital films? the boardwalks, marina and grocery sound real good for sure. how's about they add a dog run park and maybe a kiddie only park?

otherwise, it's what they want to tear down and tear out that is worrying. what exactly do they have in mind? the last thing the east bank flats needs is to be torn down and its visually striking and unique character destroyed. for example, isn't the peabody's/pirate's cove original rockefeller warehouse landmarked?

lastly, the city also needs to lock in some kind of build guarantee with wolstein so that if something is torn down something will take its place. who needs more holes in the ground like the former schoolbelles building hotel project bust or the eons-long public square ameritrust building parking lot. 

Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: Frank V on December 12, 2004, 04:34:05 PM
I agree I'd much like to see most existing structures on the East Bank remain and be renovated.  They definitely have a character that would be missed if torn down.

Looking into this fix up may be coming at a good time, especially with Queen Jane trying to get gambling legalized.  A casino would look pretty nice down there.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: Punch on December 12, 2004, 04:34:22 PM
If it happens, it sounds like a nice way to bring some of the old entertainment district flavor to the flats, while also helping to continue its transformation into an extension of the WHD residential area.

I heard Jimmy DeMora saying that he wanted to put the casino in the flats, and I was scared.

The development sounds a lot like the place in Chicago I went to go see movies when i lived there.  It had a big garage, a Barnes and Noble, movie theater and I think a Wild Oats.  I wonder if Wolsteens owned it. 
(It was on Clyborn where Southport ends, right by Jack Sullivans, the OSU bar.)
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: the pope on December 13, 2004, 10:26:46 AM
is this the same wolstein as in the son of the passed Bert Wolstein?+

also

MyTwoSense,

greetings and welcome, i am a former resident of the square. North Moreland to be precise.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: Map Boy on February 26, 2005, 10:28:00 PM
Sorry, I posted this earlier in the wrong spot...

On this subject, I was just reading Jane Campbell's State of the City address and I got to this interesting paragraph:

"The Lakefront Plan is the very definition of what it means to have a vision for the City. This is the plan that sets the stage for a whole new neighborhood on the East Bank of the Flats with significant private investment in housing, shopping, and entertainment poised to break ground within the next year."

The address is dated February 18th, but I haven't seen any updates here since December.  Has progress been made?
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: Jmart on February 28, 2005, 10:25:16 AM
MyTwoSense...  Have you ever been to the Cinemas over at Tower City?  Talk about seedy at night..  I went once... years ago...  wont go back...  its horrible...  Tower City is just draws a bad crowd all around...  I wish it was more upscale..  So yes, I think more cinemas would be a GOOD idea...  Also.. do you work downtown?  If so you would know that we NEED more parking spaces...  rates are ridiculous as of now.  Even thought the DP deal fell through, I would like to see more parking downtown.. No not surface lots, I hatem but, thats all we have..  I liked te idea DP was goign to implement with underground parking etc..etc...

thats my 2 cents...  Mytwosense...  ;)
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: MyTwoSense on March 02, 2005, 05:57:44 AM
MyTwoSense... Have you ever been to the Cinemas over at Tower City? Talk about seedy at night.. I went once... years ago... wont go back... its horrible... Tower City is just draws a bad crowd all around... I wish it was more upscale.. So yes, I think more cinemas would be a GOOD idea... Also.. do you work downtown? If so you would know that we NEED more parking spaces... rates are ridiculous as of now. Even thought the DP deal fell through, I would like to see more parking downtown.. No not surface lots, I hatem but, thats all we have.. I liked te idea DP was goign to implement with underground parking etc..etc...

thats my 2 cents... Mytwosense... ;)

I've worked in the heart of downtown since summer 1988.  I interned at Sherwin-Williams for two years, and then started at SOHIO (it will NEVA be BP to me - but hey that's personal issue!).  Therefore, I've watched Downtown and its surround 'hoods change for almost 20 years.

I "commute" from Shaker Square to Tower City when I'm working in the Cleveland.  I prefer to use public transportation since it's so convenient in the Shaker Sq. area as well as downtown.  I have friends that live in the WHD, Tremont, OC, Upper Prospect, Superior-Payne and i use public transit to visit them as well.

I've been to TC Cinemas many times.  I personally do not think anything is wrong; however, we all have our own "comfort" levels.  I do not find it nasty, seedy, rowdy, rundown or a place I would not recommend people patronize.  Question?  When you last visited did you voice your concerns with management????

I too wish TC had more upscale store as it did when it first opened, however, the only downtown residents were on two buildings on East 12.  Today, Downtown and its adjacent 'barrios have a population that can support the mall and any adjacent street retail IF WE HAD ANY, however, TC fell into mediocre, which changed it shopping clientele.  However, TC owners could change that.  TC has turned into nothing but a HUGE restaurant, granted many of the restaurants in the mall are packed every night of the week, not just "game" nights - which is a good thing.

Do I know about the parking lots?  We have millions in downtown and they are EYE SORES!!  Personally, I think if people feel the price to park downtown is too high they should take public transportation.

With developments, I think parking lots have to be apart of the mix sense many of the people who buy might be car owners.  However, I’m not in favor of building 2k.  500 yes, but not 2k.  It defeats the purpose of having a FUNCTIONING RAIL LINE AT YOUR DOORSTEP and living in a true urban enviornment.

I personally feel we should take a note of our east coast and European sister cities and building housing and retail on street level without any parking, forcing those to use public transportation.  This confines and reduces parking lots/garages.  The remaining lots/garage could service several nearby business and building instead of having a sea of lots.  This put people on the street and the retail locations are winner because people will SEE them and public transit become more of a part of everyday life instead of an alternative or only used for special events.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: Map Boy on March 02, 2005, 10:23:24 AM
I do agree, in principle, with the prior post on the notion of not supplying parking for new buildings in the Flats, but I have a feeling that the city and often other government agencies have parking requirements of new developments that would prevent even a developer who sought this idealist design from seeing it through.  Maybe it's more incentives than requirements...I don't know.  Someone fill us in if they're familiar...

On the subject, I spent a semester studying in London in 1999, during which I completed a design proposal for a 50 acre site over a rail yard.  I included parking in my proposal and all the other people (Italian, Japanese, British) around me asked why...I thought about it and I realized that this is a complete waste of space in Central London and that the site had 3 underground stations within a five minute walk.  However accessible this Flats site is to public transit, though, residents of the neighborhood can't get WHEREVER they want from the Waterfront Line.  And people who are coming in for the shopping or the entertainment can't get to the site from WHEREVER they are.  That's the advantage of transit systems in Europe, Asia and NYC...you really can get anywhere you need to go, maybe with a transfer, maybe not.  In Cleveland, it often takes several transfers...and the waiting!  I love me some public transit, but Cleveland just doesn't have the critical mass to support it without accommodating for the use of automobiles.  Sad as it may be.

One last note...If we were evern going to try to push this NO PARKING agenda forward, I think the Flats would be an ideal place to do it, since there is so much parking and transit nearby.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: 3231 on March 02, 2005, 11:11:16 AM
The Flats is in a strange situation.  It is not very accessible like Gateway is.  In a way, you would want to encourage people to either park elsewhere and arrive on foot, or to take transit.  I would hate to see what a casino downthere would do for the traffic cutting through the warehouse district.  I remember the Flats in its heyday, traffic was horrible, especially if there was a concert. Now, with a thriving warehouse district, this could be a traffic mess if both districts are drawing in folks.  I like what H. Morrison said about the Gateway garages.  We need them, but they cant be too big or else we lose the chance at having a large number of people walking through and discovering the warehouse disrict.  I favor more apartments and townhomes down in the flats.  I was disappointed when they only planned about 300 downthere. 
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: Map Boy on March 02, 2005, 11:58:10 AM
The streets on the East Bank aren't very functional anyways.  Has anyone ever seen a proposal for making the East Bank, namely Old River Road, car-free?  They have a neighborhood similar to this in Portland, Oregon where they've run the light rail through on a cobble-stone, car-free street.  It's called Old Town/Skidmore and it's very very functional.  They have one of the best outdoor urban markets down there and loads of clubs, bars, shops, homes, etc. There are bridges passing overhead and trains passing through...very charming.  It all has an old feel and it's connected directly to the riverfront park...sounding familiar at all? 

Here's a website: http://www.oldtownchinatown.com/

And here are some of my pics:
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: KJP on March 04, 2005, 07:56:18 PM
That is just a lovely area. What the hell am I doing in this town....

KJP
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: Map Boy on March 04, 2005, 08:23:57 PM
No, no, no!  Wrong answer!  You're in this town because you love it and you want to make it better!  Trust me, when I was in Portland, I felt an air of futility because the market was so driven and determined already that no one needed to push it forward.  Of course, this is a simplification, Portland needs visionaries who can guide development in the right direction, but it appears that there are so many out there, that development is going the right way.  Cleveland needs you and loves you and we will see it flourish again!
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: X on March 04, 2005, 09:53:12 PM
I got the exact same feeling when I was in Seattle, and that is why I didn't stay.  I do think it is always a tug of war between where I want to work as a planner, and where I want to live as someone with a fairly advanced taste in city living.  Cleveland works because its my hometown, and because it at least offers some tastes of the latter while certainly being the former.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: KJP on March 05, 2005, 12:42:26 PM
Cleveland needs me and loves me? To quote Nazareth, "Love hurts" or Tina Turner, "What's love got to do with it?" or the J. Geils Band, "Love stinks" or Amanda Perez, "Love is pain."

Did I miss any others? Methinks I just took this thread in a whole new direction...

KJP
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: Map Boy on March 05, 2005, 05:01:52 PM
Again, I'm out of town, have there been any drawings or proposals posted?  Anyone got any pictures to share with me???
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: X on March 05, 2005, 05:49:24 PM
All that I've seen are the rough building footprints that are in the Lakefront Plan.  It would be the area fronting on Front Street down to the Main Avenue Bridge.

This is a big PDF:
http://planning.city.cleveland.oh.us/lakefront/finalgraphics/conceptplan.pdf
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: Map Boy on March 05, 2005, 06:08:35 PM
Thanks, X.  I've seen this plan before, but now I've got a better idea of where this specific development is.  I'll make up the rest of it in my head!
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: Punch on March 06, 2005, 11:58:26 AM
From the 3/6 PD...

Company not giving up on city
Sunday, March 06, 2005

Scott Wolstein, chief executive of Developers Diversified Realty Corp., said he remains committed to Cleveland and Ohio, even while his company has gone national. More than 8 percent of the square feet it manages is in Ohio, trailing only New York.

When asked why he doesn't invest more locally, he responded as if he's accustomed to hearing the question. He and his father Bert Wolstein spent millions in the 1980s and '90s developing the east bank of the Flats, only to see the project fail.

More at cleveland.com http://www.cleveland.com (http://www.cleveland.com)
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: mrnyc on March 06, 2005, 08:31:20 PM
Quote
"There have been tens and hundreds of millions of dollars lost by developers -- by us and Forest City and [Dick] Jacobs and others -- investing in our city."

gee, does that negate the tens and hundreds of millions of dollars they all *made*? must be more that that too since they are all still in business and none of them are exactly personally hurting financially. especially jacobs he made out best of all.

and also, how does this excuse them from sitting on property today and doing nothing with it? sell off your freakin property if its so bad!!! give someone else a crack at developing it!
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: KJP on March 06, 2005, 09:30:06 PM
^Thank YOU!  :clap:

KJP
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: X on March 06, 2005, 09:46:24 PM
Hmmm... Land tax anyone?  I think that it would do wonders for development in this city.  We have way to many people sitting on way to much land, hoping that someone else will come along and give them a bundle of money for it.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: Map Boy on March 07, 2005, 11:25:03 PM
What is the standing rule on that anyways? 
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: KJP on March 08, 2005, 07:19:14 AM
I believe it can be done if a tax is to achieve a higher purpose, and not seen as punitive.

KJP
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: mrnyc on March 08, 2005, 03:33:10 PM
Quote
Hmmm... Land tax anyone?  I think that it would do wonders for development in this city.  We have way to many people sitting on way to much land, hoping that someone else will come along and give them a bundle of money for it.

that is true but i am not hopeful.

you are forgetting who's pockets the way too many people (aka negligent landowners) are stuffing campaign loot into. that would probably have to change first. it could happen if a real rich guy ran for mayor, he or she would be untouchable in that way. peter lewis ya listening???
 
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: X on March 08, 2005, 10:02:43 PM
I doubt it.  Peter Lewis talks to other millionaires and mayors and such.  Not us. j/k!

Of course, you are right about what you said.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: MayDay on March 09, 2005, 09:46:00 AM
Folks, you do know that Standard Parking got its start here? And do you know who helped found it?

http://moritzlaw.osu.edu/alumni/newsletter/oct2003/metzenbaum.html

Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: nsc on March 09, 2005, 11:22:14 AM
I read on the Cleveland.com forum that Doug Price, the developer of Stonebridge, is going to be anouncing a Condo project on the East bank.  There are no details on it yet.  Does anyone know about this.  Something like Stonebride "hugging" the river would be nice.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: Punch on March 09, 2005, 11:38:00 AM
Mister Good Day brings up a good point about the street level interaction that Stonebridge lacks.
I hope this is taken into consideration if they do something big on the East Bank
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: nsc on March 09, 2005, 11:44:48 AM
You won't have much going on at the street level with that being the first development over there.  Bring more and more of that and you will see street interaction.  Be patient for the spin-off.  Lets just be glad things are happening in the flats. 
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: 3231 on March 09, 2005, 04:42:50 PM
I wouldn't want any street retail with Stonebridge.  Cleveland has too many store fronts.  We need more critical mass before we can support more retail. That said, I wish that there was more of an entrance with the street.  The parking lot is on the first floor, but I remember that you can see over the gray wall into the garage
Whatis that about?  I wish that the stone/brick would have gone all the way down to the ground.  Also, I think that store fronts would be too isolated in that dead end street to succeed.  Can't wait to hear more about his plans.  That woud be a nice neighborhood there.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: 3231 on March 09, 2005, 04:54:24 PM
I hope that the new project doesnt hug the river. I like the views that Stonebridge has of the river.  It would be too cluttered if more buildings were added between Stonebridge and the Cuyahoga River.  We need to move inwards and line some of the streets that descend into the flats from St. Malachi.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: Punch on March 11, 2005, 02:23:29 PM
New port official looks to revitalize region
Thursday, March 10, 2005
Sarah Hollander
Plain Dealer Reporter
Mayor Jane Campbell's former chief of staff begins a new job next week with a mission of expanding the Cleveland-Cuyahoga County Port Authority's economic development role.

Deb Janik starts Monday as the port's vice president of regional development. She will work directly with the city, the county, suburbs, local banks, developers, the Cuyahoga County Mayors and City Managers Association and neighborhood and civic groups, such as Team NEO and the Greater Cleveland Partnership.

More at cleveland.com http://www.cleveland.com (http://www.cleveland.com)
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: 3231 on March 11, 2005, 02:42:01 PM
I saw that article.  I wonder how long it will take until there is word on the timeline for the project.  The Warehouse District needs more than just bars to survive as a viable neighborhood. I hope that there will be something that keeps the place vivrant during the other hours of the day (as a bookstore, grocery store, cinema all could do) We all saw how the Flats sunk quickly in the late 90s when it was such a mono-culture. 

I hope that the number of units ends up being higher that 350.  We need more critical mass.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: MayDay on March 11, 2005, 03:13:32 PM
The thing is - the Warehouse District *does* offer more than bars. Sure, there are plenty of them but the majority of market-rate housing downtown is right there.The Flats never really had much of a residential element.

What I'm liking is that there are more and more casual eateries opening around the Warehouse District instead of "special occasion" spots. You have Nauti Mermaid on West 6th, Captain Franks on St. Clair at West Third, and Flo Cafe on West 6th at Lakeside. That tells me there's a demand for everyday places to eat which tells me the area's investment in residential units is paying off. I think Constantino's is good enough to tide residents over until there's truly enough critical mass for a full-size grocer.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: 3231 on March 11, 2005, 03:28:12 PM
I was in the Warehouse District last weekend for the first time in years.  I saw Ron Harper and a bunch of NBA-looking people eating at a restaurant on the corner of W.6th and St. Claire. 
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: MayDay on March 11, 2005, 03:40:41 PM
That would have been either XO, Metropolitan Cafe, or the Blue Point Grille. Those are a few of the "special occasion" joints, especially XO and Blue Point.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: 3231 on March 11, 2005, 04:36:47 PM
Blue Pointe. 
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: Punch on March 11, 2005, 04:56:45 PM
When I first heard about this development, I thought it was just another Wolstein big idea for the flats (remember putting a roof over old river road?) but it actually sounds like it might happen.

Can you imagine a lazy day, sitting on a porch with a cup of coffee watching one of those huge barges slowly navigating the river.  I would love to live there.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: 3231 on March 11, 2005, 05:25:44 PM
I think that the roof idea was actually put out there by Corna.  He is one of the guys from Stonebridge. Corna also wanted to line condos along the street that runs parallel to the CSX tracks and ends at the old Fagans.  I always wondered how he would get control of the land. 

I think that this plan has a chance.  The state has already given 3 million to the project. I doubt that they would throw money at something that is not going to happen.  I just hope that the density it great enough.  I think that the bookstore idea is grand.  Borders did wonders for a neighborhood next to Vanderbilt in Nashville.  I would think that the 20-30 yr educated crowd in the Warehouse District area would create some steady business for the bookstore, and provide for some alternative entertainment.  Diversity is important for the area's success.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: Map Boy on March 13, 2005, 04:28:29 PM
I just spent a few days in Cleveland and one of my persistent impressions of the city remains the same...we have a city with many great neighborhoods that are on the verge of becoming complete, yet are still functioning independently of each other.  These places...Tremont, Ohio City, Detroit Shoreway, the Flats, Warehouse District, Gateway, CSU, Midtown, etc...have the potential to grow together to form one of the most exciting, complete, vibrant collections of inner-city neighborhoods in the country.

On that note, I'm glad to hear about the new position at the Port Authority...especially with someone who has so much experience with City Hall and Neighborhood Progress Inc.  I think we've all shared the sentiment that the "powers that be" in Cleveland are often working against each other.  Having someone in this role with the necessary connections and relationship coming in will certaintly expedite the development process.  I'm very optimistic about the project we're talking about here and with the Port Authority working as another group that wants to make this a reality, we've got a much greater chance of seeing it happen. 
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: Punch on March 13, 2005, 06:13:12 PM
One huge piece of the puzzle is still owned and neglected by FCE, that is the Scranton Penninsula.  That would definitely connect Tremont to downtown and to duck island, which would spill over to Ohio City.
Maybe one day.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: Map Boy on March 13, 2005, 08:05:11 PM
a boy can dream, can't he?

I was pleased to find how easy it was to get from Tremont to Ohio City and Downtown on RTA buses.  When bike weather returns...piece o' cake!
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: 3231 on March 19, 2005, 12:58:05 AM
From the sounds of this project (cinema, large bookstore, grocery store, etc), it seems that it would be more successful if placed on Forest City's large surface lot on West 6th.  From that location, it would get much more foot traffic from downtown office workers.  It would bridge the office district and the WHD.  If it is stuck down the hill in the Flats, it is too isolated.  If Wolstein is interested in doing in the Flats, why isn't Forest City interested in doing something similar in the WHD?  Wolstein's project would preclude any similar retail project from being attempted on FC's land for the foreseeable future.  FC must seriously be sour on Cleveland. 

That said, I still think that Wolstein needs more than 300 housing units in the Flats, especially since District Park looks dead.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: Map Boy on March 19, 2005, 03:08:03 PM
What's this Forest City site in the WHD?

I agree, though, that the bookstore/cinema could be too isolated in the Flats.  That's for right now, though.  I would hope that somewhere down the road, in the not-too-distant future, we'll be able to support Tower City, a development of major retail/entertainment on this site in the Flats and another one over by Playhouse Square.  I could see something big like a movie theater/bookstore sprouting up on 14th and Euclid once the Euclid Corridor is completed.  They could capture the residential and hotel population over on that end of Downtown, especially with new E.12th Street projects and CSU residential growth.  The existing population in the WHD and new housing in the Flats (east and west) could support the one we're talking about in this thread, and the commuters from the suburbs would still support Tower City. 

This seems like dreaming right now, but come on, we should be able to support multiple bookstores and theaters in our Downtown!  And I for one know that I would be much more inclined to live down there if there were more sprouting up...chicken and egg, I guess.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: 3231 on March 19, 2005, 08:39:54 PM
Forest City controls the mamoth parking lot that stretches from West 3rd to West 6th, bordered by St. Claire and Superior Avenue.  I might be wrong, but I am pretty sure that they control that land.  It was where their first attempt at a convention center site was before they realized it was not a good place, and then they retreated back to the Tower City site.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: Map Boy on March 19, 2005, 10:43:47 PM
I tried to check it all out on the city's GIS pages, but I couldn't figure it out.  There seem to be quite a few different owners.  However, I suppose Forest City could just have all sorts of subsidiaries that are listed as owners, but in reality, they control the whole thing.  Whatever, it needs to be developed already!
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: 3231 on April 05, 2005, 10:42:10 AM
Here's another article on the project.  Kind of a long read that is short on details..

A Second Chance
Learning from past mistakes, developers and the city of Cleveland are working to revive the Flats.

Sara Lepro
lepro@inside-business.com 
Rustom Khouri bought his first piece of property in the Flats in 1986. He was one of many developers at the forefront of revitalizing the historically industrial site into an entertainment district.

"We believed it would have a national draw," says Khouri, president and CEO of Carnegie Management Group, a Westlake-based commercial real estate development company that owns property on the East Bank. "For a long time, that was the case."

During its heyday of the 1980s and 1990s, the Flats pulsated with bars, nightclubs and restaurants dotting both banks of the Cuyahoga River.

More at www.inside-business.com (http://www.inside-business.com) 
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: clvlndr on April 06, 2005, 12:27:42 AM
This is the single, key sentence in the whole article... leads me to believe this one, at least partially, might get done:

The city has agreed to contribute between $15 million and $20 million to the project over several years, and the state has allotted $3 million of its 2005 capital budget toward the project.



Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: nsc on April 06, 2005, 08:01:43 AM
To make a long story short, is this going to hapen or not?
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: 3231 on April 06, 2005, 11:25:14 AM
The tone has always seemed to be that it will get down.  The city has agreed to fund it and the state has already given money.  I wouldn't think that they would give cash to something that they  doubted would happen.  I wish that we would hear a timeframe for this project. 
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: nsc on April 06, 2005, 03:14:26 PM
What is the project.  Is there a specific architect involved, is there a site plan, are there tenents?  For a project that has already received funding, and as much as it has, I would have expected to see something by now.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: 3231 on April 06, 2005, 03:26:09 PM
I would assume that once some anchor tenants have signed on that we would hear some names.  The fact that we haven't heard anything must mean that negotiations are ongoing.  Of course the city and state money must be contingent on it happening.  In order to show the potential tenants that it will happen, I am sure that the goverment must demonstrate first that they will put up the cash.

All the articles seem optimistic, or, as if its a foregone conclusion that the project will happen.  I'll believe it when I see it.  That said, I do have my hopes up.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: X on April 06, 2005, 06:17:02 PM
This isn't a specific project rendering, but a slide from the Lakefront Plan that shows something like what might happen here.  Look to the far right of the picture, the buildings grouped around a grass oval.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: Map Boy on April 06, 2005, 09:37:27 PM
The article is great...very optimistic...and I like to hear that kind of talk!  It's refreshing!  This has been one of the most talked about projects that I can think of over the past year or so that would actually MAKE SENSE.  Screw the convention center...this is the stuff that makes cities livable.  Real neighborhoods that connect to other real neighborhoods.

I'm also glad to read that Stonebridge is being hailed as a success and a sign of things to come.  Partnerships and cohesive vision are invaluable and if the public and private sides of things continue to work together like this, then we might see more creative, unique places like the Superior Viaduct come into the picture.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: 3231 on April 06, 2005, 09:47:59 PM
MGD,

Corna, one of the two partners on Stonebridge project, is the dad of a kid who went to wildcat high during my years.  It sounds great that there is such open dialogue amongst the west siders.  Hopefully, they will continue building residential on that side of the river. 
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: nsc on April 07, 2005, 09:28:51 AM
I could just see the city shutting this down because the plan interferes with shifting Rt 2. 
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: X on April 07, 2005, 02:55:47 PM
I don't think that the bridge portion of Rt. 2 is shifting. 
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: 3231 on April 07, 2005, 04:08:11 PM
Shifting the bridge would make the projection extremely expensive, am I wrong? 

Where will Route 2 begin to change its path through downtown?  Will it stil be elevated through the WHD?
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: KJP on April 07, 2005, 05:30:33 PM
I don't think that part of the project has been decided yet. One proposal is to have the lanes come down off the Cuyahoga Valley bridge to the level of city streets, before crossing West 3rd, and then angle its way over the tracks to the current alignment east of Browns Stadium. Another is to leave it just the way it is through the Warehouse District. I don't care for that. There may be more options using some other combinations but I'm not aware of what they might be.

KJP
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: 3231 on April 07, 2005, 05:34:02 PM
I agree with you, KJP.  It is imposing to look up and see a highway bridge blocking the view of the port and the lake from Wests 6th and 9th.  I hope they lower it.  As I am engineerically-challenged, I don't understand how it would be done.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: Ewoops on April 07, 2005, 09:52:05 PM
I hope the city gets some input in what happens with the redevelopment of the Flats.  It is, in my opinion, Cleveland's most unique asset, and the city needs to do the best job it can to help it fulfill its potential.  Stonebridge, while gorgeous on the outside, seemed to fall short (at least to me) when I actually took a look at an apartment there.  It was just too sterile.  The Flats needs to keep its funky feel, and there are so many great buildings down there, a mix of new buildings and redeveloped ones would really be amazing. 

Does anyone else feel like the parking lot bridging the Warehouse District and Public Square is a better spot for the type of development being proposed for the Flats? Something similar to Block E in Minneapolis, if anyone is familiar?   It also seems like the Flats needs more residential development than the current plan offers, as well as more hotels. 

It is so close to the Rapid, which can take businessmen/women to Public Square and the north end of the financial district, that it seems a no-brainer for a number of small, cool hotels mixed in with a ton of housing (similar to South Beach, but with a Cleveland flavor, maybe we could get more marina slips at the north end of the flats and near Whiskey Island to compensate for the fact that there's not a beautiful beach)  With this kind of traffic, the retail (not to mention dining and nightlife options) aspect would take care of itself.

However, I don't want to look a gift horse in the mouth.  If they are going to get something down there started, I am all for it.  I just hope that the infrastructure being put in place for this development will be able to accomodate future growth as well.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: 3231 on April 07, 2005, 11:19:37 PM
Ewoops,

I agree with you. I fear that this project has too much retail and commercial located in an area that is too far from Public Square.  The giant parking lot would be a much better location.  It would draw the office crowd and the residential crowd.  I don't see folks wanting to walk down into and out of the Flats just to patronize the grocer and bookstore.  We'll see. I'll take the project anyday, but I think that it is not optimally located.  If there was more residential going into the Flats, I would feel better. But, I don't think that 300+ is enough for that area.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: nsc on April 08, 2005, 06:54:33 AM
I agree with you wimwar.  They will need a ton of residential in the Flats to support what they have proposed.  The people in the WHD are getting the retail they need right now for their everyday needs.  Therefore, I don't see the WHD residents walking down the hill to support the proposed retail in the Flats.  I think it will turn into a situation we had 5 to 10 years ago.  Both districts thriving and one hanging on in the long run.  Back to my point however, if they do incorporate enough residential in the Flats project and slightly downsize the commercial, we could see two thriving districts for years to come that feed off of eachother.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: Map Boy on April 08, 2005, 09:35:57 AM
ok, first on the parking lots between public square and the whd, we all know those have issues of their own with owners sitting on them until who knows when.  And I think we all agree that the Flats are a district unique to Cleveland and can really become our signature residential quarter in the downtown area.  So, building housing is a key element to this, but what's keeping people away right now is a critical shortage of amenities.  if this project can push the amenities quotient up OVER what the district supports right now, then the residential development will follow because the demand for housing will push it! 

Ewoops, I like the mention of a boutique hotel down there as well.  If this is going to be a signature residential quarter, a boutique hotel will fit in very well.  And I know there are lots of people who look for this type of option first when they're visiting a city for pleasure or for business...they want a more unique, creative space that will put them right in the center of a real neighborhood, not just in the CBD.  love it!
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: X on April 08, 2005, 06:18:36 PM
A boutique hotel or even a hostel would be a cool addition to the flats.  I like the idea floated (pun intended) awhile back of using the Mather as a hostel.  That would go over extra well if the Mather were moored somewhere in the Flats.  Isn't there a slip that isn't used any more behind Nautica?  Or is it still in use?

Unfortunately, I don't think that the Flats is the place for the sort of development that has been proposed.  Even with more residential development down there to give it a neighborhood base, it doesn't have good enough access for the non-neighborhood residents that the sorts of retail they are proposing will require to be successful.  And I don't think that the retail they are proposing is unique enough to bring people in from more easily accessed alternatives.  I'd much rather see a bookstore or theatre go along Euclid somewhere.  Of course, its not my project, my land, my money.  Whatever.

BTW, this is the same developer who is building a strip mall with loading docks that have some of the nicest views in Northeast Ohio.  Makes me wonder about there decision making process.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: Punch on April 09, 2005, 11:44:09 AM
The flats still has the general reputation of an entertainment district so that should draw people.  The WHD is literally spilling over into the flats, especially if District Park comes back online.  (By the way, steel prices are starting to ebb down)
I think there will be enough people, and this may be a great shot in the arm for people to take another look at opening restaurants in the flats.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: Map Boy on April 09, 2005, 12:09:02 PM
Seriously, and why can't we have two bookstores downtown???  Really, I think that once developers and retailers see how much public money is going into downtown development and how much of an emphasis there is on residential growth, they'll be lining up to get in on the action!  Or at least, that's how I see it...
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: 3231 on April 12, 2005, 07:33:36 PM
MDG,

There was an article in Crains this week about how a developer backed out of buying the Reserve Square apartment building because it had just been released that Cleveland was the poorest big city.  There are many reasons why national chains will drag their feet before jumping on the downtown band wagon.  Reputation is definitely one of them. I think that eventually we could handle two large book stores, but not now.  Sometimes, I wish we could fast forward a decade and see what developments actually take place.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: Map Boy on April 12, 2005, 11:00:33 PM
kind of like in Sim City?
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: 3231 on April 13, 2005, 02:04:04 AM
Exactly.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: 3231 on April 16, 2005, 12:57:52 PM
I can't find the topic, but I remember reading that the port authority was looking into buying up WHD lots to squeeze out other lot owners.  Looks like Cleveland has had this idea going for a while. Below is an excerpt from Bruce Blog in late 2003

Plans are in the works for the development of a new city park in the Flats known as Canal Basin Park, located just west of where Forest City wanted to build a convention center. First, the Cleveland Waterfront Coalition, the nonprofit that fought to save two of the giant Hulett ore unloaders, is conducting an engineering study to see if a parcel of land at the river’s edge is suitable to support the Huletts. The land, just west of the Carter Road Bridge, is owned by businessman Mike Miller, who tore down an old B&O railroad station and paved it over for parking.

The city really wants a park there and an achievable green space initiative that it can get a win on (one that is easier or more achievable than Whiskey Island) and that Campbell administration can take credit for. So, the city surrounded Miller with parking and lowered their rates to effectively squeeze his parking operation out—which seems to be working—he can’t fill his lot even charging $1 a day.The CWC is spending some considerable money to test the soil to see if the riverbank land could support the tonnage of the Huletts and to assess the market value of the land in order to make Miller a competitive offer.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: Map Boy on April 20, 2005, 03:45:36 PM
sounds unfair, but i like it!
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: Punch on May 09, 2005, 10:17:52 PM
Interesting interview from Crains Cleveland, it mentions this project.


 Engineering a new Cleveland
Few companies have had their hands in as many Northeast Ohio projects as engineering, design and architecture company URS Corp.

The company, led in Cleveland by 44-year-old lifelong Northeast Ohioan Gary Hribar, has done design work on Gund Arena, Jacobs Field, Cleveland Browns Stadium, Cleveland Hopkins International Airport, the Cleveland-Cuyahoga County Port Authority, and widening of State Route 91 in Mayfield Village.

Mr. Hribar, a 13-year veteran with URS, took the reins of the company’s Cleveland office late last year, after serving an apprenticeship under Bill Laubscher, who led the office since 1995.

More at crainscleveland.com http://www.crainscleveland.com (http://www.crainscleveland.com)
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: zaceman on May 09, 2005, 10:50:31 PM
now its over 200 million....??
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: WoollyBear on May 10, 2005, 08:59:44 AM
S**t, atleast this project is starting. I am really interested in seeing what they are planning on building. I am excited to see that there is going to be a residential component to this project though.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: 3231 on May 10, 2005, 09:46:58 AM
I find it interesting that they said the residential component would be large.  I wonder if they have changed their focus since we last heard about these plans.  It seemed that the commercial aspect was more important then.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: Punch on May 10, 2005, 10:24:26 AM
well, maybe the steel prices are factoring into it.  Also, plastic components have increased along with the price of oil.  I really hope the project has expanded, but it may be just the cost of materials
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: Paul in Cleveland on May 10, 2005, 06:34:15 PM
Take a look at Penton. Penton was a company that moved downtown into the Bond Court building and should be a thriving company, but has fallen on tough times for whatever reason.

Sorry for the aside.  From a 10-year Penton employee, I should mention that Penton has always been downtown (we used to own the Penton Press in Berea, too).  Before moving into the old Bond Court Building, we were in the Diamond Building.  We've also been in the old Penton Plaza (near Perk Park, now renamed something else) and in the Rockefeller Bldg. many years ago.

Penton got in trouble because we bought up a bunch of Internet-type publications and trade shows right before the Internet bubble burst, and we also invested heavily in trade shows, and then 9-11 made everyone want to stay home.  Double whammy.  The company would be doing fine, except we have over $300 million in debt with nothing to show for it.  Our ex-CEO made a lot of dumb moves, thank goodness he's gone now!  Hopefully, in a few years, we will be a much stronger company, if we can refinance our debt.

Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: Punch on May 10, 2005, 09:24:48 PM
glad to hear it Paul, that interview kinda bummed me out
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: X on May 10, 2005, 09:30:24 PM
RE the Crain article:  Everyone has a viewpoint, but I wouldn't assume that an engineer is necessarily any better informed about the city's economic condition than any other person.  Interesting observations, but take them with a grain of salt.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: 3231 on May 11, 2005, 05:26:25 PM
Well, finally we are going to hear about this proposed project.  This should give us something positive to talk about..   :yap:  :clap:

Flats project to be unveiled

By BRANDON GLENN
 
Plans are set to be unveiled Monday, May 16, for a new $200 million real estate project on the East Bank of Cleveland’s Flats.

A statement released this afternoon from public relations company Lesic & Camper Communications LLC announced Monday’s news conference, but provided few details. According to the statement, the project “represents the largest private sector investment in Cleveland since 1988.”
 
More at http://crainscleveland.com/news.cms?newsId=3355 (http://crainscleveland.com/news.cms?newsId=3355)
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: mrnyc on May 11, 2005, 05:39:50 PM
wow, some very good news! mayday you have a lunch appointment, bring camera!!!
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: zaceman on May 11, 2005, 05:49:50 PM
oh awesome

is that the full article?
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: 3231 on May 11, 2005, 06:01:32 PM
Yep. It is the full article.  I am hoping that they tell Crains before Monday so that the story will be in next week's edition.  They always post the new edition at midnight Sunday night.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: X on May 11, 2005, 06:52:03 PM
...Which is why I'm always up till 1:00 Monday morning!  Ok, just kidding, I'm always up till 1:00 AM.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: zaceman on May 12, 2005, 08:25:20 AM
$230 million Flats plan picks up speed
Thursday, May 12, 2005

Christopher Montgomery
Plain Dealer Reporter

Backers of a long-discussed revitalization plan for the east bank of the Flats will kick off a campaign next week to gain support for the $230 million project. Public financing, a major question about the development in the past, appears to be falling into place.

Developer Scott Wolstein is proposing a mixed-use development composed of 300 housing units - split evenly between condominiums and apartments - and commercial components that could include a multiplex theater, grocery store, bookstore and other retail.


More at http://www.cleveland.com/business/plaindealer/index.ssf?/base/business/111589061235222.xml&coll=2 (http://www.cleveland.com/business/plaindealer/index.ssf?/base/business/111589061235222.xml&coll=2)
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: Punch on May 12, 2005, 11:04:52 AM
Ignorant question:
Knowing where this development is, can there be a way to incorporate the waterfront line?

By the way, the corporate head of IT has told just told me that I am one of the top 25 abusers of the internet in the company in the world.  So I may participate less, at least during the day.  :-(
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: FerrariEnzo on May 12, 2005, 11:43:54 AM
I hate to be the pessimistic one but isnt 300 units pretty skimpy?  3000 would be a bit more like it.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: FerrariEnzo on May 12, 2005, 11:45:34 AM
lol punch what a super superlative... btw isnt if funny how this started out as 170 million then 200 and now 230 as reported by the PD??  Maybe when its near completion we will have a multi billion dollar investment.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: MyTwoSense on May 12, 2005, 11:47:12 AM
 :clap:    :clap:

lets pray there is only a small parking lot included.  we dont need more parking spaces/lots downtown.

What is this, the third reincarnation of the flats?  Second since 1983?
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: 3231 on May 12, 2005, 11:52:33 AM
I think that the waterfront line dissects the project.  Doesn't Wolstein own the land between main avenue and west 10th.  I know that long ago they had plans to turn that mega-lot into a parking garage. 

I really like that there will be public boardwalk.  I would hope that it could someday stretch down to settlers landing.  If done well, that would certainly improve public access to the waterfront.  I am excited to see the plans.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: 3231 on May 12, 2005, 11:54:24 AM
Ferrari,

I agree with you about the units.  But, maybe it makes sense with the development as planned.  I would hope for more, but 150 condos is a very healthy amount.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: WoollyBear on May 12, 2005, 12:40:25 PM
I was kind of puzzeled by the amount of residential. For $230 million I thought there would be more. There must be a lot of office, and commercial planned. This is great news for Cleveland, hopefully it blends in with the WHD nicely.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: MayDay on May 12, 2005, 12:50:21 PM
"wow, some very good news! mayday you have a lunch appointment, bring camera!!!"

Um, excuse me but did it ever occur to anyone that I might have a life

Just kidding, of course I don't have a life (sad but true) so I will do my best to be there!

Folks as far as the residential count - well, the Bingham has a little over 300 units spread over 12 enormous floors. So take the Bingham and flatten it to say, 3 or 4 stories but spread it out to accomodate the same total of units. That covers a lot of space if you ask me.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: FerrariEnzo on May 12, 2005, 03:19:30 PM
How much did Pinnacle end ip costing for comparison reasons?  Then we can predict the size ans scope of this project and its relationship to amount of units.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: Map Boy on May 12, 2005, 03:54:57 PM
Yeah, 300 units isn't that considerable, but there's already so much residential down there and not as much commercial/retail diversity.  So, commercial focus is ok by me!  And spinoff residential will surely follow once this one gets moving.  You can bet on it!

I'm stoked...
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: Punch on May 12, 2005, 05:54:00 PM
I wonder how much of the projects price tag is things like the public boardwalk and reconfigured streets and sewers.  The earlier articles say they are looking for $20M from the city for stuff like that
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: Ewoops on May 12, 2005, 07:54:24 PM
Does anyone have any idea if there are firm commitments from a bookstore, movie theater, or grocer yet?  If that were the case, I'd sign up right now.  I can't wait until they announce the details of the project, this could be incredible.  I still think that mixing in boutique hotels would make the area even more incredible.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: Map Boy on May 12, 2005, 08:01:14 PM
absolutely!  and I really can't wait to hear about all the possible retailers...hold your breath for monday!
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: zaceman on May 12, 2005, 08:14:38 PM
it sounds better than a lifestyle center... lol

i wonder if this will help spark some other projects like district park and the proposed W9th tower across the street.  this is definately going to link the WD to the Flats and its RIGHT on the WL so its a perfect transit oritented development as well.  i wonder how that will look from the WL since right about there is where the train elevates up.   i could see them adding another station too
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: clvlndr on May 13, 2005, 12:15:15 AM
Stonebridge also has just over 300 units, I believe, and you see how huge that project is.  And it includes a small amount of office and commercial, too -- and this is expanding.   Wolstein's tipping a lot toward commercial -- I too am a bit taken by the inflation from $170 to $230M since December -- maybe that's good.  I'm not quite sure of the physical parameters, but I don't think, at this time, it will extend north of the Waterfront Rapid line (onto P.A. land) at this time.  This project should spin-off development -- although let's not count on too much, this is a slow developing town that is not prone to multi-unit development on a large scale.   Don't forget, the handsome Riverbend condo's been there since the early 1980s.  We're not like D.C., Chicago or Toronto where they throw up huge developments at the drop of a hat.  One disturbing note is I think Wolstein is oriented toward bulldozing all the storefronts on Old River, which would be too bad.  While some of its junk, there’s a good deal of unique, historic architecture there.  It would tend to presage the more boring, bland stuff like that in Baltimore’s Harborplace/Inner Harbor (gag).

My biggest hope is that this development, whatever form it shall eventually take (and will probably evolve significantly from what's on paper, now -- that's the way development is), that it is a more substantial/permanent revival of the East Bank into something more than the fly-by-night bars and restaurants of the 1980s/90s -- by all accounts, it will be.  Maybe, just maybe, this will generate more daytime foot traffic than exists right now (which is close to nil) And I hope that and expect the Waterfront Line will reap the traffic benefits, so its naysayers will shut the hell up and go away once and for all.   :-D

And let’s hope this will spell bye-bye to all that surface parking behind the building lines and the Waterfront Rapid.  (btw – surface parking just grew in the area as the derelict, though fixable, buildings next to/behind the Flat Iron Café were torn down a month or so ago – double damn!  :whip:

I've got the feeling this development will be compact with a lot of density, which will be good.  We'll learn more Monday, I guess, when Wolstein, Jane & co plan to go on a splashy media blitz.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: clvlndr on May 13, 2005, 12:33:52 AM
Answers part of my question (from the PD site): Location: north from Main Avenue to the Norfolk Southern railroad tracks and between West 10th Street and the east bank of the Cuyahoga River

One big negative: I hear a chunk of $$ for this is coming from our already starving school system -- that really stinks, indeed.   Kinda curbs a bit of my enthusiasm.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: Map Boy on May 13, 2005, 07:49:48 PM
I guess the boundaries are a little smaller than I had previously expected.  And I didn't realize it entailed demolition of existing "historic" structures.  Though, if we want public access to the waterfront, I guess there's no choice....

I'm excited to see this spill over (eventually) to north of the Norfolk Southern tracks.  There was a plan several years back for a World Trade Center of Cleveland office complex & hotel that included building over the Waterfront Line and featured a new station inside the complex.  I'm assuming this has been dead for years, but it demonstrates that the potential for an additional station is pretty reasonable.

Can't wait for monday!
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: X on May 13, 2005, 08:33:53 PM
Most of the Historic stuctures are on the other side of Old River Road.  I hope some of them can be incorporated, especially the old Kindler's (I can't remember what it is now).

The WTC on the Waterfront Line site is dead, but I've seen rumors recently of a potential Gateway site.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: clvlndr on May 14, 2005, 10:38:33 AM
Eventually, MGD, plans call for development north of the NS tracks as part of the Harborplace development, but I'm wondering whether more brownfields clean-up money will be needed for that parcel -- if I'm not wrong, $1M in such funds have been allocated for cleanup of the area Wolstein now plans to develop...

Also, you’re right about adding a Waterfront Line stop on that elevated portion of tracks -- space for such was provided (the embankment widens allowing for potential train platforms in that area) for a station, originally, for a proposed Great Lakes Aquarium that sadly was never built -- slated to be, I think, just north of the tracks.  It's very likely that RTA will revisit building a stop there with this new development which will give the development extremely intimate rail service -- much like that in Shaker Square...

Also, I agree with X -- there are a lot of interesting, historic facades along ORR that I hope Wolstein incorporates into the project rather than bulldozes.  Sadly, if I recall, his original stated intentions were to clear the area entirely and build anew... this wouldn't be good imho.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: 3231 on May 14, 2005, 12:55:08 PM
Regarding the facades, I like the building where the Harvard brewhouse once was.  But, I think that we need to put things in perspective.  I don't love that they will tear down some old buildings, but I view it as a necessary evil  From what I've heard, the streets will be reconfigured.  The locations of the existing structures are not situated in accord with the plans.  This project needs to be done right.  It can really boost the warehouse district and it can spur development of the port land to the north.  If the right retailers can be enticed, such as a bookstore, I think that demand will really rise for the housing units.  I am very excited to see this.  However, it looks like everything is far from done.  All the land is yet to be amassed. That can be a very elongated process.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: X on May 14, 2005, 03:33:32 PM
I'm worried that, as always seems to happen in this town, we will get as far as demolishing the really nice historic buildings and then the project will stall and we'll be left with nothing.  I've been feeling really pessimistic lately, I guess.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: Frank V on May 15, 2005, 06:39:53 AM
I think the reason the price has escalated is due to rising steel and wood prices.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: FerrariEnzo on May 15, 2005, 11:02:23 AM
God help us indeed.  I would like not to see eminent domain used, nasty thing that is, abuse of property rights.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: Punch on May 15, 2005, 05:32:45 PM
It sounds like he is ready to deal if the price is right, but I agree with Ferrari, we cant use eminent domain.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: 3231 on May 15, 2005, 07:02:20 PM
Sometimes we have a very skewed version of property rights.  If one man's right to property hurts a city's ability to provide for its citizens, then we have a system that fails.  This summer's supreme court case will be very interesting.  That one seems abusive, while Cleveland's case would pale in comparision.   
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: 3231 on May 15, 2005, 07:03:40 PM
If the price is right?  The problem is that landowners like George get very greedy and demand much more than their property is really worth.  Let's just hope that he takes the higher road.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: 3231 on May 15, 2005, 07:05:37 PM
My third consecutive post..

Is there any engineering issues at play here?  How high can you build on land that is so close to the rigver and lake?  Also, is the land north of the tracks reclaimed?
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: FerrariEnzo on May 15, 2005, 09:12:39 PM
Breaking your string wimwar.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: KJP on May 15, 2005, 10:10:29 PM
Yes, all downtown land north of the tracks has been reclaimed. There are old pictures that show the railroad tracks hugging the shoreline. But don't take my word for it. Here's a picture from the 1890s, showing the downtown lakefront. In the background are the old Lakeside Hospitals, between what is now East 9th and East 12th streets....

(http://members.cox.net/ohiohsr/CleLakefrontRR1890s.jpg)

KJP
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: StrangeBrew on May 16, 2005, 08:25:23 AM
The Flats are the original settlement area in Cleveland.  They have basically been developed since the Moses set anchor.  During the late nineteenth century and early twentieth, various refineries and other industries sat where bars and warehouse would later come.  The land beneath those bars is a little dirty...to say the least. 
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: WoollyBear on May 16, 2005, 12:44:02 PM
When are the plans for the Flats development supposed to be released?
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: MayDay on May 16, 2005, 12:50:39 PM
It's what you've been waiting for!

(http://www.clevelandskyscrapers.com/flatsproject2.jpg)

(http://www.clevelandskyscrapers.com/flatsprojectsiteplan.jpg)

(http://www.clevelandskyscrapers.com/flatsproject1.jpg)

(http://www.clevelandskyscrapers.com/flatsproject3.jpg)

(http://www.clevelandskyscrapers.com/flatsproject4.jpg)

(http://www.clevelandskyscrapers.com/flatsproject5.jpg)

Views from the site:
(http://www.clevelandskyscrapers.com/flatsproject6.jpg)

(http://www.clevelandskyscrapers.com/flatsproject7.jpg)

(http://www.clevelandskyscrapers.com/flatsproject8.jpg)

Quite a crowd showed up:
(http://www.clevelandskyscrapers.com/flatsproject10.jpg)

Some of the highlights:

The glassy building closest to the lake is a proposal for the DFAS offices. I guess high rent was cited as a reason for closing the Cleveland center *however* that rent was set by the Feds (another branch, that is). They are going to appeal the recommendation by offering the new structure (400K sq. ft.) as a site for DFAS.

I noticed that parking is limited to one surface lot, and garages under the townhouses on the northern section of the site.

Utilities will be buried and/or concealed.

Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: Paul in Cleveland on May 16, 2005, 12:53:13 PM
MayDay and I went down to the press release at 11:30 a.m. today.  We both took photos of the renderings (there were only a few), but I don't have a way to upload them from my camera until I get home, I imagine MayDay will beat me to the punch, anyway.

The design by Forum Architects (never heard of 'em) is okay, lots of 4-ish story red brick buildings with lighter yellowish brick on the top floor, some skylights.  Nothing mindblowing, but nothing awful, either.  It kind of reminds me of a new urban college campus.  One thing I like is a semicircular marina/plaza located about where Dick's Last Resort is.  Kind of an shallow ampitheater facing the river.

They also had in one rendering about a 400,000-450,000 sq-ft building where the Cleveland World Trade Center proposal from a few years back would have gone, just inside that strange peninsula of land made by the Waterfront Line, north of the main Wolstein proposal.  Apparently, that is a part they're adding for that Defense Accounting (or whatever) group that was just announced is leaving Cleveland.  They are hoping to house all 1,000 of those people in this building, if the gov't. will reconsider moving the jobs out of town.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: Paul in Cleveland on May 16, 2005, 12:53:47 PM
Holy crap, you beat me to it as I was typing!  :)
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: WoollyBear on May 16, 2005, 01:15:22 PM
Thank you so much for taking time out of your day to go down there and take pictures of these proposals.  :clap: I was pretty impressed with the pictures. I really like how they will incorporate retail and residential. Was there any news on when construction was going to start? I was really happy to hear that they have a plan for DFAS, hopefully they reconsider moving the jobs out-of-town. My favorite part was the marina/plaza. It kind of looks like if this project is successful that it can spread to the other side of the bridge.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: zaceman on May 16, 2005, 01:22:55 PM
oooo nice!
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: StrangeBrew on May 16, 2005, 01:37:52 PM
May Day you are the Freakin' MAN!!! 
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: StrangeBrew on May 16, 2005, 01:54:21 PM
Forum Architects are architects forumly...get it...known as GSI. 
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: Punch on May 16, 2005, 02:04:01 PM
before I read Paul's comments I was going to write Holy Crap myself.  I really did not imagine that this development would transform the entire area!

Even if that DFAS isnt built, it would be nice to have an office building with direct RTA access.

Is that surface lot behind the development the spot where district park will go?
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: MayDay on May 16, 2005, 02:11:58 PM
No, the District Park site is located to the right of the proposed 'bookstore' site, and across West 10th from the existing RTA Station.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: FerrariEnzo on May 16, 2005, 02:20:53 PM
Small footprint but hey its something to get teh ball rolling.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: nsc on May 16, 2005, 03:18:29 PM
That may be one of the most beautiful developements to ever hit the inner-city.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: 3231 on May 16, 2005, 03:39:04 PM
Wolstein announces Flats plan
 
 
By STAN BULLARD
 
Updated 4:15 p.m.

Wolstein Group today announced its plans for the "Flats East Bank Neighborhood," a $225 million residential and retail complex that would transform the dilapidated — but key — part of the Flats at the north end of Old River Road between Main Avenue and the CSX railroad tracks.
 
The plan calls for 330 residential units and 250,000 square feet of entertainment and retail space. Old River Road would be relocated slightly east and the riverside would be reshaped with a waterfront promenade and marina. It is the largest private real estate project proposed since 1988 in downtown Cleveland.
 
More at crainscleveland.com http://www.crainscleveland.com (http://www.crainscleveland.com)
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: presOhio on May 16, 2005, 04:03:44 PM
OK, not to throw rain on anyone's parade here, but what is the caliber of the existing building stock in the redevelopment area?  Not knowing the area really well, and relying on the aerial view in a recent post, it appears that there might be 19th century commercial buildings on site.  What are we talking here?

Reason -- we are getting ready to review nominations for Ohio's Most Endangered Historic Sites -- and while we have a Cleveland nomination (Cozad-Bates house near University Circle), is this something we should also consider?

Don't get me wrong -- I understand that the loss of historic building stock is necessary sometimes to generate economic development to save a larger, more complete set of buildings -- is that what is going on here?

Any insights on to what is there now?  Thanks!
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: oallostavros on May 16, 2005, 05:38:32 PM
A big thank you to you guys for the effort for these pictures   :clap:

The "project" looks great to me.  There's plenty of public space, and Wolstein's comments in the PD article show that he has a vision for this place - neighborhood first.

BTW, The Stonebridge project on the west bank looks great in those pictures. 

One thing though - Anyone else think the noise from the trains will be a problem for some of the residential units?

Today is a good day for Cleveland - lets hope it all pans out.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: Map Boy on May 16, 2005, 07:25:26 PM
First, a reply to the last post...I just spent a morning touring a new building here in Manhattan that sits not only above Houston, 2nd Ave, and the Bowery (all VERY busy streets), but also above 4 subway lines.  We were in the building for about 2 hours and the only time I heard traffic was when we were on the sidewalk and the subway when we were in the basement, checking out the pool!  We commented on this to the developer and he said it was a welcome side-effect of the materials that they used in conforming with NYC energy and building codes.  Thick glass and sturdy supports and walls...higher cost, but far better product.

Next, my reaction to the images and article:  I like the plan, the scale, the public space, and especially the ideology...  And my only comment about the article?  2009??? WTF???  Can we not build faster than that?  Maybe they're talking about opening it it phases...but come on...four years if they break ground this year???
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: clvlndr on May 16, 2005, 07:33:07 PM
Great job MayDay! you could show Cleve.com a thing or 2 (as of 6:30p they STILL hadn't posted anything and I’m sure it won’t match what you’ve posted)...  I am very excited about this and hope our public officials stay on task to get this thing through w/o major battles.

Now for the sour note -- call me wet blanket #2: as nice as this more permanent, high-density development makes perfect sense, I can't but feel sadness that the old East Bank will be snuffed in this development.  The exciting old Flats that helped make us one of the nation's top summer pleasure destinations, will be no more.  As nice as this new stuff looks, it kinda screams: Joe Typical Waterfront Development -- really no different from a lot of cities including, now, Zinzinnati.  As honky-tonk and rundown as the old E. Bank was, this aspect was also its charm.  It had a certain raunchy edginess that sucked people in.  -- I've always disliked plastic joints like Fisherman's Warf, or NY's South St Seaport or (double-ugh!) Baltimore's faux nautical Inner Harbor.  But this is what we're getting.  I just wish that when the Flat's was still hot, we could have meshed in much of these projected buildings behind the building line of ORR bars and restaurants that made the Flats what it was.  We could’ve had our cake and eat it too… Why did it have to die first before we did the right thing? A truly special part of Cleveland is gone forever.

BTW, re the RR: if the impressive drawings are true, it appears that the residential units will both be on a rise a level higher than the NS railroad tracks as well has have their backs to the tracks (and be slightly separated from them by small rear lots).  I would assume, also, that these units will be thoroughly soundproofed – I’m sure the units backing up toward the tracks will be markedly cheaper.  But the rumble of those heavyweights will, I'm sure rattle, a piece of china ware here and there, regardless of soundproofing...

Also, I do like the office building directly connect by the Waterfront Line – which will finally get the ridership boost its always deserved.   Hopefully this office building will be built even if the DFAS isn't saved.  And as far as our prospect for saving it?  My formula, unfortunately, is

  Kucinich + Tubbs-Jones + Campbell x Dubya = No Way Jose!
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: X on May 16, 2005, 07:35:51 PM
I'm disappointed.  I don't think that the architecture or layout of this development pays any attention to the geography, history, or unique identity that the flats possesses.  This could have been built anywhere.  It is, indeed, "Crocker Park in the City". 

Sorry, I've just been very pessimistic lately.  But that's how I feel finally seeing this.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: clvlndr on May 16, 2005, 07:43:17 PM
MGD, I was put off by the 2009 open date, too... maybe its the brownfield clieanup work to preceed it that will slow things down.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: zaceman on May 16, 2005, 07:52:18 PM
i wonder if it will be built in phases though...  it looks as thought it very well could
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: Map Boy on May 16, 2005, 08:07:55 PM
Ok, I could accept the brownfield remediation excuse, but it's not like there wasn't stuff on here already...I suppose it's better to get 'er done right, though, rather than finding out in 20 years that the thing is sliding into the Cuyahoga or that radiation has been soaking up through the beams for two decades.  As for phases...that would be ok, I guess, but it's no larger than Crocker park's initial opening section, right?  Why couldn't it all be done at once? 

One exciting bit to think about, though, is that by 2007/8, there may be new ground struck to the north, east, and west...the towpath trail could be further north by then...the Browns could be winning...possibilities galore!

And on the subject of the "every day riverfront development" feeling of this project, I have a couple comments.  One, I think this one has the potential, with the boardwalk and the plaza and the size of the river, to be much more intimately tied to the water.  The buildings sort of hug the curve and the promenade definitely does.  As for the architecture, we don't know yet what it's going to look like...materials, design, etc...I'm pretty sure these pics are all just concepts.  And finally, I'm envisioning this more like Tribeca than South Street Seaport...SSS is an outdoor mall...this will be different.  (fingers tightly crossed!)
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: mrnyc on May 16, 2005, 08:14:54 PM
wow thanks for putting up the renderings you guys. thats a lotta nice work.

my initial impressions? somewhat disappointed. it seems rush rushed. i thought ok office park with the second rendering and then, oh man, pj's with the third -- ha!

also, i immediately fretted over the loss of kindler's, the oldest bar in the city, and the original rockefeller warehouse, i wish they could be saved, but that is impossible with this kind of rather uninspired clearcut thinking. i say uninspired because it looks like similar stuff you see going up recently in other cities. realize this tears the visually unique heart out of the flats.

howevvvvvver, i am very happy and excited about it and glad wolstein is in the lead, true clevelanders with cleveland at heart.  go figure, right? the positives far far outweigh the workmanlike architectural blandness. anything with residential over retail, amenities and density like that is superb in my book. also, the new public boardwalk looks....not unsafe! ha! that will be fun.

alright so whats the 'real' timeline? when can they get cracking and get some shovels in the ground? 2009 seems like a long time to build those?

oh yeah, the dfas structure is a bonus imo, fingers crossed there. something will surely go there soon anyway if this is built.


Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: Map Boy on May 16, 2005, 08:46:14 PM
yeah, about that boardwalk...it's funny to think of those benches just looking over at a whole lotta nothing...I hope there's a sea of construction cranes over the river by the time people are sitting down to relax by the riverside!

Next, the old post and heavy chain routine...is that still the standard?  I know the majority of North Coast Harbor has this design, but is it the best idea for a potentially crowded boardwalk?  I'm sure we're due for a lot more design, but I'd like to see something more along the lines of a handsome 4-foot iron fence that you can lean up against without fear of falling into a river that could catch fire at any moment!

and what about a connection to the future Whiskey Island park???  something across the rail bridge perhaps?  Portland Steel Bridge is the same sort of lift bridge and it accommodates commercial and amtrak rail and has a great pedestrian component to it that connects two riverfront parks.  how 'bout it?
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: 3231 on May 16, 2005, 10:27:55 PM
I am very excited about the design.  There are many more city blocks than the existing East Bank has.  This creates for some potentially lively streets.  Also, I like the area along the river.  The present configuration blocks river views and does not allow pedestrians to meander along the riverbanks.  I wish that the boardwalk could be connected to Settler's Landing and then over to the Towpath.  This would be fantastic.

I miss the old Flats.  But, it was a formula that didn't work anymore.  I enjoyed its heyday, but we have to recreate ourselves if the status quo is sinking fast. 

On the timeline: all the land is yet to be acquired.  If eminent domain must be used, it could be a lengthy procedure.  Also, funding is not secured.  I can see why it will take awhile.  I highly doubt that they will break ground this year.  Once they do, it shouldn't take four years to complete, unless leasing and condo sales lag.  But, I think that this project will have the fastest sale compared to other downtown condos.  It will be a dynamic area with narrow streets, river views, and good retail.   
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: oallostavros on May 16, 2005, 11:55:43 PM
Anyone else notice the parks on the roofs of the buildings?
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: MayDay on May 17, 2005, 08:17:12 AM
"what is the caliber of the existing building stock in the redevelopment area?  Not knowing the area really well..."

Here are some links to images of the existing building stock. Quite frankly, it's not much to write home about. I'm also a preservationist at heart but the loss of the buildings in question wouldn't warrant any alarms.
http://www.placesintown.com/cleveland/cleveland_flats5_lg.jpg
http://www.placesintown.com/cleveland/cleveland_flats1_lg.jpg

The big problem with the East Bank as it is now is that those buildings block all public access to the riverfront. Unless you're a patron and able to access one of the decks/patios (and given how many places are closed, that's not easy to do), they block some of the best views of the river/lake. In many cases, the decks aren't connected so pedestrian traffic along the river is hampered. Oh and don't forget the lovely parking lot RIGHT on the river.

"realize this tears the visually unique heart out of the flats."

Hardly - look at the aerial and compare it to the site plan - a major component of this project is being built on what? What's that? A parking lot! Correct me if I'm wrong - we've all been chanting "build infill on the parking lots!" A small strip of bland brick buildings (remember, we are hardly talking about buildings like the Hoyt and Bradley Buildings in the HWD) that have outlived their usefulness many times over are not the "visually unique" heart of the Flats. The Flats are the river, the bridges, the lake, the leisure boats, the ore freighters - and those aren't going anywhere.

Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: Qwios on May 17, 2005, 09:09:43 AM
As long as the building don't taper inwards towards the bottom like in the third picture I say good stuff.  Wolsteins can have the east bank, Stark gets the WHD, Ratners get TowerCity/Scranton/whatever else.  Lewis I guess gets University Circle, now only to lure Jacobs out of his "estate planning."  Who did I leave out?  Ahh yes the Lerners... and then on to our out of towners Quicken loans guy, Gund, and so on and so forth.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: 3231 on May 17, 2005, 09:46:16 AM
If this project goes through, it looks to have some nice spin off potential. 

1. Going down Old River Road towards Settler's Landing.  I am not sure how much vacany there is, but that is a nice road that could really be helped along by this project.

2. Along west 10th---the huge surface lot just north of the Main Ave bridge would be a nice spot for residential tower, a la district park.  Also, this could help encourage the resurrection of District Park.  I would like to see some pedestrian corridor go through the District Park site in order to help connect the East Bank to the WHD.  Presently, St. Claire is the only viable way into the Flats.  Main Ave's stretch underneath the main Ave bridge is way too gloomy.   
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: StrangeBrew on May 17, 2005, 09:49:38 AM
The whole problem with "entertainment districts", in my opinion, is 1) they only generate revenue for part of the day (after the sun goes down), 2) they are at the mercy of other factors such as the public's surplus disposable income for drinks, winning sports teams to draw crowds, warm weather to keep crowds moving, etc.) 

The overall residential component breaths real life to the project. It is futher enhanced by public transportation and its connectivity to neighborhoods such as Warehouse Dist and Ohio City/Tremont/Duck Island/Scranton Rd., Quay 55, and Gateway.

Finally, an entertainment district along Cleveland's waterfronts could always occur along the lake to the north on the Port Authority's land (around Cle. Browns Stadium) or to expand along the parking lot on the West Bank.  But, I don't think it is that important to use waterfront land for bars. 
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: nsc on May 17, 2005, 11:08:01 AM
^It is mixed use.  There is more than nightlife incorporated.  There are offices for the daytime benifit, restaurants for the nighttime benifit and housing for the 24/7 benifit.  That is the whole idea of mixed use....making money at all hours of the day.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: 3231 on May 17, 2005, 11:54:33 AM
As others such as MGD has pointed out, I wish that a small boutique hotel could be a part of this project. 
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: nsc on May 17, 2005, 12:03:29 PM
^I think we need to wait for the convention center for more lodging to pop up.  Also, I do not think we should be in this position.  The flats should have been built up back in its heyday when it had a big name nationwide.  You would not even have to advertise for this developement or look for more money.  Hotels and residential would have been major cash back then.  But it went to hell, now we are stuck with a risky developement, that still may not happen,  that involves tearing buildings down that once brought in tons of money and tourism. 
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: WoollyBear on May 17, 2005, 12:19:09 PM
I really like the idea of the boardwalk. I was just viewing the San Antonio picture thread that  showed the river walk, and I was really impressed by the number of people walking. I think that a boardwalk by this development would be a great way to lure residents, and tourists. Could you imagine living there, and being able to go out on any night and enjoy a great meal, do some shopping and then finish off the night by walking down by the river? That would be awesome. If this thing gets built, by 2015 I bet that entire corner of downtown is going to look totally different. I can not wait until this thread gets moved to the "completed projects" board.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: Map Boy on May 17, 2005, 06:21:59 PM
"I think we need to wait for the convention center for more lodging to pop up."

I disagree...boutique hotels don't necessarily rely on convention center-type traffic to thrive.  They're more for the hip, young traveler who wants to hang out in real neighborhoods where real nightlife and residents can be found.  I know this is what I look for when I go out of town for a weekend getaway...boutique hotels and B&Bs.  I also know that folks in my company, which is NYC non-profit, travel to the midwest quite frequently for small meetings and site visits to their projects.  Places like KC, Cincinnati, Cleveland...mid-sized cities, filled with pockets of character. But if you were to just settle for an airport hotel or a big-time downtown hotel, you'd miss out on a lot of this.  My boss, in particular, is big on checking out the boutique hotels whenever she travels.  I think she likes supporting smaller scale businesses and definitely enjoys staying in more functional neighborhoods, rather than the financial CBD. 

I think a spinoff boutique hotel or one as a part of this project would do quite well.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: clvlndr on May 18, 2005, 01:33:06 AM
... one note re the long time lag to completion (2009): that even after brownfield clearing, the PD article suggests sufficient street infrastructure -- water, sewers, electric -- must be significantly expanded/upgraded to support this kind of high density development of this project ... as opposed to the lighter needs of the mere part-time bars/restaurants along Old River Road,  and the warehouses/bars that preceded them... and that this upgrading, along with the reconfiguring of the streets, themselves, must be done/will take time, before the actual sites can be graded and buildings can rise. 

... makes sense.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: Map Boy on May 18, 2005, 07:56:06 PM
well, it better be spectacular when it's finished...that's all I have to say!  4 years...sheesh
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: Map Boy on May 18, 2005, 08:02:17 PM
What?!  No one posted this yet???

Flats project draws praise, concern from City Council
Wednesday, May 18, 2005
Olivera Perkins
Plain Dealer Reporter

Cleveland City Council members say Scott Wolstein's $225 million plan to redevelop the east bank of the Flats is a good one as long as it doesn't shortchange the schools and other neighborhood projects.

Wolstein presented the plan Tuesday to Council's Community and Economic Development Committee.

More at cleveland.com http://www.cleveland.com (http://www.cleveland.com)
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: Map Boy on May 18, 2005, 08:08:08 PM
One comment about the last sentence...I think with all the new residential in both neighborhoods and the distance between the two there can be demand for two theaters...and as I always say, provision of amenities will spur even more development, so these will both be great for their neighborhoods and their near surroundings!
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: zaceman on May 18, 2005, 08:11:45 PM
oh yea ohio city/detroit shoreway can definately support its own along with the new downtown one.  they could probably even collaborate
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: MayDay on May 18, 2005, 08:24:08 PM
"Councilman Zack Reed expressed concern about the financing district, saying the schools should get more than half of the taxes.

"How can we go to the residents and ask for a levy while at the same time say in the light of progress, we need to give this project 50 percent of the school taxes?" Reed said."


If I was Zack Reed, I'd be more worried about my recent DUI charge - oops! What would he suggest? Gee, let's not approve ANY investment - and let's not provide ANY incentive to developers until the schools have a 100% graduation rate? The revenue from this project is a drop in the bucket compared to the real needs of the schools. If he's THAT concerned about school funding, he needs to take a trip down I-71 and argue school funding issues on the level where real difference can be made.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: X on May 18, 2005, 11:00:18 PM
Not to mention the fact that 50% of something is better than 0% of nothing.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: MyTwoSense on May 19, 2005, 09:46:15 AM
Not to mention the fact that 50% of something is better than 0% of nothing.

AMEN!  You can say that again! 

If he wants to be upset about something be upset about "secret" meeting for a "lifestyle" center in a inconvienient area of the city when those stores could be constructed in current buildings/parking lots in downtown...but dont get my pressure up just yet this morning!  :x  :x
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: MayDay on May 19, 2005, 09:55:24 AM
^Oh Steelyard Commons won't even be something as "nice" as a lifestyle center. We're talking a 'power center' along the lines of Macedonia Commons or Avon Commons - big boxes surrounded by seas of asphalt. I know Jane really didn't please a lot of people (myself included, a registered voter in the city of Cleveland) by going behind Council's back on this one.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: MyTwoSense on May 19, 2005, 10:07:43 AM
^Oh Steelyard Commons won't even be something as "nice" as a lifestyle center. We're talking a 'power center' along the lines of Macedonia Commons or Avon Commons - big boxes surrounded by seas of asphalt. I know Jane really didn't please a lot of people (myself included, a registered voter in the city of Cleveland) by going behind Council's back on this one.

As another registered voter IN Cleveland, Jane got a piece of my mind at 3:45AM this morning.  Steelyard got my juices flowing and the email started flowing.   argh! :x
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: FerrariEnzo on May 22, 2005, 03:59:45 PM
ARCHITECTURE
City ought to weigh Flats project design
Sunday, May 22, 2005
Developer Scott Wolstein's announcement last week that he wants to launch a sweeping redevelopment in the Flats along the East Bank of the Cuyahoga River was great news for Cleveland.

It would transform a row of seedy, dying bars and nightclubs north of the Main Avenue (Burton Memorial) Bridge into a 13-acre neighborhood intended to attract the young, smart, workers Cleveland needs to power the high-tech industries of the future.

More at cleveland.com http://www.cleveland.com (http://www.cleveland.com)
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: Map Boy on May 23, 2005, 09:31:58 PM
Yes, a thoughtful and on-point article by Mr. Litt.  This is on all of our minds!
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: sooner on May 24, 2005, 01:56:45 PM
Agreed, this is a little too suburbanish ( is that a word?) for the location...not that I don't want to see it happen an be successful.
By the way, of all the drawing board or proposed projects in Cle, which do you think is most important or would have the greatest impact.  There are a dozen or more currently being discussed in this forum.  Personally, I think if this project can persuade the Defense Finance jobs to stay in Cle, it would be the most crucial. 
Number one fantasy project would be Peter Lewis deciding that his company should move downtown with his several thousand employees.
How would everyone else rank these?
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: MyTwoSense on May 24, 2005, 05:15:31 PM
Agreed, this is a little too suburbanish ( is that a word?) for the location...not that I don't want to see it happen an be successful.
By the way, of all the drawing board or proposed projects in Cle, which do you think is most important or would have the greatest impact. There are a dozen or more currently being discussed in this forum. Personally, I think if this project can persuade the Defense Finance jobs to stay in Cle, it would be the most crucial.
Number one fantasy project would be Peter Lewis deciding that his company should move downtown with his several thousand employees.
How would everyone else rank these?

Without seeing any drawing or renderings lets see what they have offered.  I think they can still have Unique and architecually inspiring buildings even if not highrise.  the DFAS jobs would be great.

Progessive downtown would be progressive!!!  Jane and the county comm. should be kissing is a$$ to develop something downtown.  however, why aren't we talking to Sherwin Williams to stop hiding they're corporate name and build something on Public Sq (or other lot in downtown) and show some civic pride. 

Hell I wouldn't mind S-W slapping their name on the BP Building, but i would rather see that as a hotel!  Any tenant in the building could be moved to other first class office space downtown and this could be our "convention" sized hotel without building something new.

My wish is that we develop subway lines under our major avenues.  even if they only go 55/60 blocks initially
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: 3231 on May 24, 2005, 05:32:52 PM
I like the design of the project for a few main reasons:

Many small streets that intersect.  This creates interesting places to walk.  There is always a new perspective at each corner. The current old river road suffers by being one long street with several uninspired older buildings (north of the bridge). 

The four-way intersection where there is a second floor setback.  The first floors are right on the street, but the upper levels are set back at the corners.  This will allow some much needed sunshine to flow into that space.

The walkways along the river.  No need to explain this.

The streets are perpendicular to the river. This allows some good views of the river even from a block or two inland.

The mini-amphitheater on the river.  Cleveland so much needs well-planned public spaces where people can gather. The Malls are great, but no one lives there or has any reason to pass through.  This amphitheater will give people a place to sit and watch as boats go by. 

Good placement of the bookstore.  To survive, it needs to be close to the warehouse district.  Being at that corner and adjacent to the rapid station gives it good visibility.  Also, the bookstore would be across from the art theater.  Good idea,  Movie crowds like to do things before or after a movie.  Smart people often like art flicks. Smart people like to browse bookstores.  This arrangement provides a good incentive to stick around the area for a longer amount of time. 

I hope to see this development spark some rehabs along the south stretch of old river road.  Could we please turn the large tool company's building (forgot the name) into condos. It is a building that screams for renovation.  All the windows are boarded up with some aluminium siding.  I wonder who is frying in architectural hell for that decision?  That street, with the old Watermark building, could be a great place for some pricey condos.  The only problem is the Odeon.  I don't know who would want to live next to that place. It can be very loud.

I would think that the smaller details of the buildings have yet to be determined.  Too early in the process.  I really like what they have presented.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: KJP on May 24, 2005, 06:46:55 PM
See my post at

http://www.urbanohio.com/forum2/index.php?topic=1782.msg34736#msg34736

for a way to possibly link up downtown destinations by reworking the convention center plan.

KJP
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: urbanlife on June 15, 2005, 05:25:29 PM
   
Circus in the Flats sold

By STAN BULLARD

June 15. 2005 11:32AM


The sale of the Circus, an adult club in the Flats, likely adds a new hoop to jump through for the real estate developer planning to redo Old River Road as an upscale downtown neighborhood.

HDV Cleveland LLC, an out-of-town investor group associated with the 75-club Déjà Vu chain, acquired the Circus in the Flats on Tuesday, June 14, and plans to turn it into a Larry Flynt Hustler Club. The sale comes shortly after the Wolstein Group development concern announced plans to remake Old River north of Main Avenue as a new downtown neighborhood with condos, apartments and retail space.

More at
http://www.crainscleveland.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20050615/FREE/50615001/1004&Profile=1004 (http://www.crainscleveland.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20050615/FREE/50615001/1004&Profile=1004)


 
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: Map Boy on June 15, 2005, 05:35:38 PM
what the *#@?!?!  this is ridiculous!  was he not approached by Wolstein about selling to him?  Is he just trying to muck things up?  and what is a chain doing buying this land with a proposal like this on the table???
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: buildingcincinnati on June 15, 2005, 06:58:20 PM
Man, I was at the Circus a couple of years ago for my friend's bachelor party.  One of the strippers nearly tore his nipple off.  I don't think he was expecting to be flogged and beaten.

Anyway, back to the topic!
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: X on June 15, 2005, 07:56:10 PM
Its a great scam.  Buy a property with some supposed plans to invest a bunch in it, then claim that its worth alot because of the great plans you have.  All you really have to do is buy it and flip.  Your lawyers will do the rest.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: 3231 on June 15, 2005, 08:07:44 PM
Its a bit unsettling that a national chain would feel confident enough to buy into this area when it is slated to be demonished.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: KJP on June 15, 2005, 08:23:49 PM
Spencer is the name on the marquee for the no-neck crowd sitting in the shadowy back room, if you follow me. For people of his cadre, it is more desireable to be feared than to be loved. The guy who owns some of the bars across the street is cut from the same cloth, er, silk shirts. This isn't going to be easy for Scott W.

Remember Ed Stinn Chevrolet in Fairview Park? That place sat empty for a decade because ol' Ed had debts to people who don't refinance unless your kneecaps are part of the deal.

KJP
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: blinker12 on June 15, 2005, 11:48:17 PM
A retired Cleveland firefighter, Mr. Spencer has moved to Naples, Fla., where he works on real estate investments. If his situation were different, he said, he would have liked to have been "a part of the redevelopment of the Flats."

Is that supposed to redeem him? That if he hadn't jumped ship and moved to Florida he would have done something more responsible??? What a load of crap.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: zaceman on June 15, 2005, 11:49:24 PM
wow... its almost comical
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: Icecream on June 22, 2005, 04:52:41 PM
It is comical... read the writing on the wall... Wolstein's project isn't real.  It was released for political reasons.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: X on June 22, 2005, 05:50:31 PM
Well I don't know about that. Wolstein does own a good chunk of the land down there, and site control is the most difficult thing about getting a development started.  That's not to say there aren't still issues to work out, but they've done a good chunk of the hard work already, and they have a good track record of getting things done.  This is just an example of some shysters getting in just ahead of what they think is going to be a good payday for them.  They can make trouble, but ultimately, they probably won't be enough to stop the project from going forward.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: 3231 on June 22, 2005, 06:23:31 PM
It is comical... read the writing on the wall... Wolstein's project isn't real. It was released for political reasons.

Ice Cream:  Boy are you a pessimist. Cleveland sure needs more of those.

 I highly doubt it was released only for political reasons.  This has been in the works for a couple of years.  You don't spend years developing the idea, hire an architect, apply and get state money, lobby the city for infrastructure funds, have an out of state partner involved, spend many days presenting the plan at a Las Vegas convention to potential commercial tenants just so a mayor of Cleveland can present a false idea to better her chances of re-election.  I can understand that timing is politically motivated, but not the entire project concept.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: MyTwoSense on June 22, 2005, 07:10:30 PM
Quote
Ice Cream: Boy are you a pessimist. Cleveland sure needs more of those.

You tell him Wimwar!

A city is only as great as the people who reside in it.  Cleveland is finally maturing and starting step out of the shadows of out coastal brethren.

We need people who give CONSTRUCTIVE criticism, get involved socially and politically and make a difference. 
Quote
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: MayDay on June 23, 2005, 08:24:26 AM
I have to agree with wimwar - I have no doubt in my mind that the timing has political motivations. However, the legwork and effort that's gone into marshalling the proposals, financing, etc. - there's too much there to simply be a whim.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: Icecream on June 23, 2005, 03:29:25 PM
When you do own that much land you often spend significant amounts of money seeing what will work.  When in a public company it is practically required. But the plan has no specifics.  So much is still missing from it.  Normally a bit more detail is in order before you go and ask for public money.  He has neither land control nor the normal partners.  Then again...

If Wolstein can make it work I think it will be just what Cleveland needs.  I want it to work.  I want Mr. Wolstein to make gobs and gobs of money on the project so that other companies put their sweat and money into Cleveland.  I just don't think it looks like a real project at this stage.  Then again... Mr. Wolstein has made millions of dollars in real estate development, and I have not.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: StrangeBrew on June 23, 2005, 04:09:02 PM
The East Bank project is very real.  Worry not about things like Spenser and a strip club.  The Supreme Court decision today allows for Cities like Cleveland, who view buildings or properties, such as our strip club here, that are in the way of Economic Development, to be taken through eminent domain, w/o a clear "public" purpose or blight designation.  In otherwords, for "just compensation", Cleveland can step in when the time is right and take the land then turn it over to Wolstein. 
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: 3231 on June 23, 2005, 04:32:49 PM
I need to read the opinion, but this is a huge win for cities and developers.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: Icecream on June 23, 2005, 04:44:37 PM
Oh, they can take the land, it just might be a fight.  Getting the property will add to the cost of the project.

People wanted constructive criticism -- Lets look at what we know.

The project has gone from $170 million to $225 million in just a short time.  It does not sound like they nailed down their numbers.  A 32% increase in such a short time is troublesome.  Where will it stop?

But lets just look at the quick numbers where they stand now:

We have been told  that there is 250,000 feet of retail and entertainment.  Good square footage retail in town is about $25 a foot.  That can be expected to generate roughly $6,250,000.00.  On a 10% capitalization that means that the retail is worth about $62,500,00.00.  That makes the rest of the project $162,500,000.00.  That means that the residential at 330 units starts at roughly $500,000.00 each before any profit is made.  Stonebridge is the best comperable even though the units are much more reasonably priced.  Stonebridge's units have an absorption rate of roughly 3.5 units a month.  That means that the 330 units to be built will take almost 8 years before they are all sold.  That is a painfully long time because a lot of the money is going to have to be fronted before any profit is made.  Of course this is making things very simple.  There are a thousand other items, but it does show how this project is very bad without mega tax dollars.

This is a very tough project.  If Clevelanders want it to work, we are going to have to dig in our collective tax pockets to make it work.  Without lots of public help, Wolstein would be crazy to do the project.  A they are now, I do not think that the numbers work. 

This is a pioneer project.  I don' t think there are any comperable numbers that Mr. Wolstein can use to judge just how his project will go.  If it makes it, I think you will see other developers use his success to justify the numbers they have in their projects.  It could really be a boon to this city.  If it is for real, then I hope he makes it.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: Punch on June 23, 2005, 05:18:36 PM
Well, the price tag is for the whole project including all of the infrastructure.  I think about $25M is already pledged from the gov't.

I think most of the residential units will be apartments, not condo's.  Much like how Stonebridge did it.
If there is one development company who knows retail, and who knows the East Bank of the Flats it is Wolstein's.

I think this project is a slam dunk to be made, especially after the supreme court decision.  The city, the port, the state and the developer are behind it and want to make it happen.

Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: X on June 23, 2005, 05:52:34 PM
Besides the cost issues, I am betting Wolstein is counting on quicker absorption as the downtown condo market matures and solidifies and as the economy improves.  It's difficult to predict sales pace of a new market with little track record- one of the reasons financing can be difficult to get for inner city projects in the first place.  In these situations, the developer's rep is key.  It's even more critical than usual to have someone who's proven they can get it done, get it done right, and get it filled.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: 3231 on June 23, 2005, 05:54:47 PM
I think its about an even split between rental and condo.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: buildingcincinnati on July 05, 2005, 09:49:16 AM
The AP picked up the story.  I don't know if there's any new news in it (I didn't really read it) or if anyone wants to post it, but here it is:
http://www.ohio.com/mld/ohio/news/12055790.htm?source=rss&channel=ohio_news (http://www.ohio.com/mld/ohio/news/12055790.htm?source=rss&channel=ohio_news)
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: Qwios on July 05, 2005, 11:21:38 AM
Stupid newspapers making me subscribe what utter BS...  but anyway here it is

Posted on Tue, Jul. 05, 2005 
 


Cleveland looking to revive Flats entertainment district
Deserted east-bank buildings could be demolished in $225 million project
By Thomas J. Sheeran
Associated Press

CLEVELAND - Backers of the riverfront Flats nightclub district, a premier regional attraction until drownings and rowdiness took a toll, hope a $225 million development and a shot at casino gambling will lead to its revival.

Carolina Martin, who grew up in the 1950s and used to walk from home to watch the ship traffic along the winding Cuyahoga River, thinks the mix of condominiums, bars, restaurants and offices envisioned by Scott Wolstein will make a big difference.

More at www.ap.org (http://www.ap.org)
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: blinker12 on July 06, 2005, 01:55:04 AM
Quote
Even civic boosters such as Councilman Joe Cimperman have few good things to say about the stretch of mostly boarded-up buildings that would be demolished to make way for Wolstein's project.

Can anyone pinpoint exactly which buildings would be demolished? I'm worried because there are a lot of cool old buildings on the East Bank, and just because they're boarded up doesn't mean they should be torn down. I hate it when Cleveland tears down old buildings just because they're vacant.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: MayDay on July 06, 2005, 08:28:21 AM
I believe the buildings in question are those you see in the foreground:
(http://www.clevelandskyscrapers.com/goodtime/goodtime21.jpg)

"I'm worried because there are a lot of cool old buildings on the East Bank, and just because they're boarded up doesn't mean they should be torn down."

The problem is that the buildings are built right up to the river - and together they effectively wall off the riverfront from the public. Wolstein's project includes an impressive public walk along the riverfront, something that is sorely needed in my opinion.

"I hate it when Cleveland tears down old buildings just because they're vacant."

You are aware of how rare that is in recent years? The buildings in question may be older but they are hardly remarkable, and as I said above - they block off any public access to the riverfront.

Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: Punch on July 06, 2005, 08:34:35 AM
Yeah, but Mayday, aren't they going to also tear down the buildings on the other side of Old River Road?  There are some good buildings on that side.

I still think, as a whole, it is a good project
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: X on July 06, 2005, 06:36:46 PM
Everything from Main to the CSX tracks and from the River to W. 10th St. is gone.  Some of the buildings on the East side of Old River Rd. are imo quite fine examples of early Cleveland commercial architecture.  Its a very finely grained, human scale stretch of buildings.  This will be lost, unfortunately.  Maybe it is worth it, but it is still sad to me.  It would be better if some of it could be saved and incorporated into the design, but Wolstein has completely ruled out that possibility.  At least I would like to see the old Kindler's saved, even if it had to be moved somewhere.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: Map Boy on July 06, 2005, 06:43:18 PM
yeah, this is a huge bummer, but I'm in with the "progress creates unfortunate necessities" in this case.  I'd like to think there are scenarios for saving the facades (at least), but it appears that with the realignment of the streets and what not, this will be an impossibility. 

I'd say that on the river side of ORR, the benefits far outweight the losses...creating public access to the waterfront vs. losing historic structures...but if there were possibilities for saving structures on the north side, it would be a shame to have a vision that couldn't incorporate them into the design.

 
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: X on July 06, 2005, 06:49:58 PM
I don't know that there are any historic buildings on the river side of the road, north of Main.  Most of those are actually relatively new.  They just look old and crappy.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: blinker12 on July 07, 2005, 04:17:20 AM
You are aware of how rare that is in recent years [Cleveland tearing down old buildings]? The buildings in question may be older but they are hardly remarkable, and as I said above - they block off any public access to the riverfront.

I am aware that demolition of old buildings has slowed considerably in recent years, and I'm very thankful. It's just that -- as exciting as the overall redevelopment project is -- it would be sad to see a regression to the bad old days when progress equalled demolition. These old buildings are a big part of what make the Flats special.
If we were only talking about the shacks right along the river in your photo, that would be no great loss. Unfortunately, it seems like more is at stake.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: blinker12 on July 07, 2005, 04:43:33 AM
OK, specifically, will these buildings bite the dust? (Photo taken from the Pope's excellent yay/bah photo tour)
These are the kinds of structures we should be saving IMO.

(http://www.urbanohio.com/thepope/back/ohio%20city0011.jpg)
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: X on July 07, 2005, 08:38:24 PM
Everything up to the bridge will be gone, including the street.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: JEJustice08 on September 27, 2005, 02:42:26 PM
Update from Crain's

Wolstein's Flats plan moves forward   :clap:

By STAN BULLARD

2:56 pm, September 27, 2005

Legislation to make a reality of developer Scott Wolstein's $230 million plan to redevelop Old River Road north of Main Avenue is pending before Cleveland City Council.

Mr. Wolstein this morning briefed council's Economic and Community Development Committee on five pieces of legislation the development needs to proceed. The package includes measures authorizing the city to provide two tax increment financing (TIF) packages for the project.

 http://www.crainscleveland.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20050927/FREE/50927006/1004/newsletter01 (http://www.crainscleveland.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20050927/FREE/50927006/1004/newsletter01)
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: Map Boy on September 27, 2005, 02:46:10 PM
time to re-name this thread???

this was buzzed about during the first day of the "Learning from the Dutch" symposium at CSU yesterday...

Battery Park broke ground, the Avenue District will follow in the spring and perhaps this as well???
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: 3231 on September 27, 2005, 02:50:33 PM
Hmm..

this article mentions 400 residential units.  With such a large footprint, I am glad to see an increased residential total. 

Let's hope Council passes this quickly.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: JEJustice08 on September 27, 2005, 02:51:05 PM
MGD,

What I love is how it started out as a $170 million project and it now stands at $230 million.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: Map Boy on September 27, 2005, 02:53:01 PM
I think that may include the public investment and rising costs of materials...  but yeah, numbers like that should mean a great product!
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: zaceman on October 03, 2005, 07:12:15 AM
Flats plan on approval fast track
Wolstein scurries for city’s OK so he can beat rising interest rates

By STAN BULLARD

6:00 am, October 3, 2005



Scott Wolstein and supporters of his $230 million plan to remake the East Bank of the Flats are seeking rapid Cleveland City Council approval of legislation to move the project forward, but the developer maintains his need for speed is driven more by interest rate hikes out of Washington than political considerations at home.

More at crainscleveland.com http://www.crainscleveland.com (http://www.crainscleveland.com)
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: MyTwoSense on October 03, 2005, 07:22:21 AM

In the process of pursuing the project, Mr. Wolstein said he is seeing a new attitude emerge in Cleveland government. It’s vastly different from the adversarial environment a decade ago that prompted the family to shelve the project.

“I’ve been blown away by the cooperation we’ve received,” Mr. Wolstein said.

Thats a powerful statement.  I hope other developers feel the same way.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: Map Boy on October 03, 2005, 11:08:25 AM
Whether or not we're seeing all these projects coming on line at the same time is politically driven (re-election) or not, the fact is that they're signing contracts and breaking ground.  These are bigger than anything in recent history that involves such a mixture of uses in the city proper and I think that's a great sign!
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: sooner on October 03, 2005, 12:02:33 PM
Without a doubt, the re-election campaign is a factor.  However, it seems to me that a lot of business has been taken care of since Chris Ronayne was hired. That is only my sense from afar...but what does everyone else think?
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: Ewoops on October 03, 2005, 12:16:41 PM
I noticed that they've stopped mentioning the potential book-store that had previously been linked to the project (both In Crain's and in this month's article on Wolstein in Cleveland Magazine).  I wonder, are they having trouble attracting a bookseller to the Flats, or are they omitting it for purposes of brevity?  Hopefully the latter, it's a real shame that we don't have a major bookstore in Cleveland proper.  In fact, it is an amenity that would cause me to seriously consider a neighborhood.  I am embarrassed that I have to drive all the way to Westlake to get to a Border's or Barnes and Noble. 

Considering the fact that Border's and B & N are already in Westlake, perhaps Joseph Beth could wind up in the Flats.  I remember reading a while back that they were trying to attract a major bookstore to the abandoned church on 117th and Lake, I wonder if it's possible for both Edgewater and the Flats to get a major chain to sign up.

Sooner, I agree that the Campbell administration has been much improved since Ronayne's promotion.  Enough in fact, for her to receive a second term, IMO.   
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: KJP on October 04, 2005, 05:10:24 PM
^That's a good subject for a news article -- especially now that I'm covering Cleveland / downtown / City Hall for Sun Newspapers!

KJP
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: Map Boy on October 05, 2005, 09:44:20 AM
Quote
the Campbell administration has been much improved since Ronayne's promotion.  Enough in fact, for her to receive a second term

I agree!  And I've heard the same expressed from a number of Cleveland voters in my little circle...  I think they will achieve LOTS in a second term (first full term) together.  Losing this tandem now would set us back a number of years... I fear that many projects and much progress in general would grind to a halt with a new administration that stands in stark contrast to the present one.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: KJP on October 05, 2005, 12:54:31 PM
By all means, please say as much in letters to the editor.

KJP
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: sooner on October 07, 2005, 03:07:49 PM
Heard a blurb this morning that Wolstien was going to unveil a revised project plan today.  Anyone seen or heard anything?  My impression was it was not a major revision, but I'm curious about it.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: M Bajak 84 on October 08, 2005, 12:52:09 PM
East bank ripe for change, planners say  Saturday, October 08, 2005
Tom Breckenridge
Plain Dealer Reporter

City planners say the east bank of the Flats is blighted and ready for developer Scott Wolstein's $230 million plan to build a new neighborhood from scratch.
To the chagrin of several Flats property owners, the Cleveland Planning Commission found on Friday that the east bank, north of the Main Avenue Bridge, is "extensively blighted" and needs a redevelopment plan.

More at cleveland.com http://www.cleveland.com (http://www.cleveland.com)
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: zaceman on October 10, 2005, 11:39:52 AM
Developer unveils bold blueprint for Flats office


By STAN BULLARD

6:00 am, October 10, 2005



The office market in downtown Cleveland has been so weak for so long that real estate insiders rarely talk about the prospect of someone constructing a commercial office building in the city. But that isn't stopping Scott Wolstein from incorporating a 10-story, multitenant office building in his redevelopment plans for the Flats.

Despite a 23% downtown office vacancy rate, Mr. Wolstein said he believes his proposed, 275,000-square-foot structure could be 'a signature building that would be a part of the future of Cleveland.' It would be located north of Front Street on a site overlooking Lake Erie and the rest of the planned, $230 million complex of apartments, condos and stores that are envisioned by Mr. Wolstein's family-owned Wolstein Group.

More at crainscleveland.com http://www.crainscleveland.com (http://www.crainscleveland.com)
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: ella on October 10, 2005, 12:07:30 PM
I was at the city planning commission meeting Friday morning and I believe the problem with the bookstore is more location than anything else.  The owners of Samsel Supply Co. were in attendance and when the had a chance to speak they expressed their concern over their loading dock area.  They stated that on a slow day they receive something like 30 shipments, by semi-trailer, per day on a slow day.  I believe since they are a viable business in the flats they are lobbying to keep what they need intact.  It is ashame, I would love to have a decent bookstore within walking distance of my place.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: 3231 on October 10, 2005, 12:19:14 PM
I heard that Wolstein offered a vague comment after the meeting about the loading docks.  Something like "they won't have to worry about that."  Ideally, Samsel could move to a more industrial area of town where they would have better highway access for their shipments. Their building looks like an ideal place for loft conversions.  That entire little area is ideal for loft conversions.  Who wouldn't want to have a place that overlooks the river?
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: smackem81 on October 10, 2005, 01:14:30 PM
Samsel supply should have moved some time ago, that particular area of the flats dosent actualy get boats per say. Something near the old river channel would probably be a better move. With the wolstein project completeion, and hopefuly enough demand in the area, might be the push to move them out. That building would be an excellent site for loft conversion, its right near a waterfront line stop too
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: gotribe on October 10, 2005, 01:26:07 PM
^Why would Samsel need boats?  I go there about twice a week for work and I don't have a boat.  I wish I did.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: Ewoops on October 10, 2005, 01:46:11 PM
Ella-I'm confused: is the area that was planned for the bookstore the same land that Samsel is worried about?  Is there some reason that is the only suitable site for a bookstore?  Any other information about the project that you have would also be interesting.  I'm very excited about the Flats' project, but know very few actual details about the timetable and proposed development.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: smackem81 on October 10, 2005, 02:16:44 PM
^^ er i ment that they are mainly a maratime supply store, and it would make more sense to be located closer to where the boats are. Old river channel allready has the great lakes towing there and the part of the port authority there, it seems to make more sense near there.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: gotribe on October 10, 2005, 03:57:05 PM
^Samsel really isn't a maratime supply store, rather it is more of a construction supply store.  Samsel has a great business down in the flats, probably one of the best retail business downtown.  All trades use that store and believe or not, there isn't one like it in the suburbs.  Samsel needs to stay where it is. It would be a shame if someone bought that building for lofts/apts/condominiums.  They would never generate the money that Samsel does everyday. 
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: ella on October 10, 2005, 04:37:58 PM
Ella-I'm confused: is the area that was planned for the bookstore the same land that Samsel is worried about? 
Ewoops - What I gathered from the meeting was that the proposed bookstore is/was supposed to go on the parking lot/entrance to the loading area of Samsel.  This would hinder semis from being able to access their loading dock.  Samsel does do great business for the area so I can see their concern.

On another note, from what I've heard it is difficult to get major chain bookstores (Borders/Barnes & Noble) without other big box retailers.  I believe there was a proposal to put a bookstore around Lake Avenue & W117th (where the abandoned hexagonal bank(?) is) but both companies were reluctant because they wanted other anchor stores like a BestBuy or Target to be nearby.  It's really sad that retailers think they can't independently operate.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: sooner on October 11, 2005, 08:14:28 AM
I agree with GoTribe.  Don't force Sampsel out.  If and when they move, the building will still be there.  Wolstien's comment re. Sampsel seemed to indicate that they would accomadate their needs.
What about this proposed office buliding.  W/out a tenant, I don't see it happening.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: Map Boy on October 11, 2005, 08:32:04 AM
^probably true...but I can definitely see some younger businesses who employ mostly younger people (many design/internet/art firms, for example) being attracted to this more than an older office building in the financial district.  The problem would arise if the rents are, in fact, $4 or more than the going high mark.  I don't think they'll build it without a tenant signed on either.  Then again, this thing is looking at a 2010 completion, right?  So, who knows what the market will look like then.  And the potential office location is the northernmost part of the development, so it wouldn't leave a hole or anything if it wasn't built for a while...
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: gotribe on October 11, 2005, 08:57:10 AM
^Samsel does a good solid business daily, monthly, yearly and they are not going to leave our region for a warmer and nicer climate.  We have a solid business there down in the flats and lets keep it.  Don't kick Samsel out and offer tax incentives to tech companies so we can get 25% of their building occupied.  Don't mess with a great thing.  It's like kicking Crate and Barrel out of Legacy Village to try to lure a tech start up there.  Insane. 
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: Map Boy on October 11, 2005, 09:26:09 AM
Where exactly is this Samsel place?  Is it on West 9th or down on Old River Road?  I'm not familiar with it.

I'm pretty sure the office building would be situated up in the bend of the Waterfront Line on the site of what was once going to be the Cleveland World Trade Center. 
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: smackem81 on October 11, 2005, 09:38:06 AM
Right next to the bridge, near waterfront line in the flats, its on old river road. Its like the only tall building in the flats, im sure its in some photothread.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: blinker12 on October 11, 2005, 09:49:38 AM
Ella, I could be wrong but wasn't Samsel concerned partly because Wolstein had rather suddenly and unexpectedly expanded his proposed development zone to include Samsel's parking lot? (Here with go with people's beloved parking lots again.) It did strike me as odd that he would do so without consulting them first.
After the planning commission approved Wolstein's "action zone" proposal for the area, Commissioner Robert Brown advised Wolstein to "have a serious conversation" with the Samsel owners, in private, about exactly what he has in mind. That conversation should clear up current concerns.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: Map Boy on October 11, 2005, 10:09:30 AM
OK, I've got the location now. 

From Wolstein's first site plan, the bookstore (which doesn't necessarily remain in the plan) would be built on the parking lot next to Samsel, as Ella mentioned earlier.  The Samsel building itself would remain.  It looks like Wolstein may want to use that parcel as a sort of gateway/magnet to lure people into the site with a major feature.  The rapid station is also right there, so it makes sense to use the parking lot for more than just parking...

However, if the parking lot serves a dual purpose for Samsel as a parking lot AND loading dock...which is how it's sounding...then there's a more significant problem there...

And what about this HUGE (over 100,000 square feet) lot directly east of the site???  Anyone talking about that?  The owner is "Main Street Parking, LLC."  This would help create a link along Front Street or under the bridge to West 9th.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: blinker12 on October 11, 2005, 11:39:35 AM
MGD, if we're thinking of the same lot, it is indeed part of Wolstein's action zone. And a lawyer for whoever owns it was at the meeting last week, complaining about the possibility of eminent domain. He also said the current owners have their own residential development plans for the lot, independent of Wolstein's plan.
As they say, WE SHALL SEE....
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: mrnyc on October 11, 2005, 01:04:43 PM
wolstein will have to find a way to accomdate samsel -- talk about your classic flats business it's samsel.

Quote
MGD, if we're thinking of the same lot, it is indeed part of Wolstein's action zone. And a lawyer for whoever owns it was at the meeting last week, complaining about the possibility of eminent domain. He also said the current owners have their own residential development plans for the lot, independent of Wolstein's plan.
As they say, WE SHALL SEE....

awwrrrgh yeah right i bet they do! what? have they been saving it for a rainy day for the last umpteen years??? ha. they just want to try to force a better price out of wolstein, et al. my advice? they should fear eminent domain -- you got a bird in the hand now so better sell asap guys!


 
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: blinker12 on October 11, 2005, 01:47:09 PM
Discussion of the lot MGD was talking about was included in the Plain Dealer's coverage of last week's meeting (posted in full above):

Quote
Wolstein's plan envisions retaining a parking lot owned by Victor Shaia and other investors, east of West 10th Street. [The Main Street LLC lot.] But Shaia asked that his property be removed from the redevelopment plan. He's talking about building townhouses there.


According to my own notes, Wolstein responded that he wants to retain the lot because it will be needed for the neighborhood's new residents.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: gotribe on October 11, 2005, 01:59:30 PM
Maybe they need a two level garage.  One level for Samsel the other for the neighborhood.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: Ewoops on October 17, 2005, 10:39:53 AM
Crain's has a blurb about Ferchill's plans for a $40 million-dollar development on West 9th and Main that would coincide with Wolstein's plan for the East Bank. 

Where exactly would this be?  Just on the other side of the Shoreway from National Terminal?  Would this project have the potential to front on both West 9th on the top of the hill and West 10th at the bottom of the hill?  I'm very excited about the prospect of spin-off development from the Flats development, and the possibility of creating a seamless transition from the East Bank to the Warehouse District.  This project, along with District Park and the existing buildings on the West side of West 9th are a great start.

Here's the link to Crain's:   

http://www.crainscleveland.com/assets/pdf/CC23071014.PDF

Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: MayDay on October 17, 2005, 10:51:09 AM
"Where exactly would this be?  Just on the other side of the Shoreway from National Terminal?"

Yep.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: Map Boy on October 17, 2005, 11:21:46 AM
Well, that would be exciting!!!  Is this just on the corner or are we talking the entire block? 

I wonder if we'll see District Park come to the surface again anytime soon? 
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: gotribe on October 17, 2005, 11:49:40 AM
^That Ferchill job sounds like the area he wanted to build Courthouse Tower a few years back.  I spoke with Marous the other day and they said that there is a spark of life back in District Park.  Nothing to serious right now though.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: 3231 on October 17, 2005, 12:32:44 PM
Courthouse tower is* near the Detroit-Superior bridge.  This Ferchill thing is just north of the Main Ave. bridge.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: Map Boy on October 17, 2005, 12:46:34 PM
actually, "Courthouse Tower" was slated to be built at West 6th and Lakeside.  "Courthouse Plaza" was the one to be built just west of the Federal Courthouse tower along the Detroit-Superior Bridge...

I don't think this is either one of those!
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: gotribe on October 17, 2005, 01:07:04 PM
Alo, I think Courthouse Tower was a $125 millon job.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: MayDay on October 17, 2005, 01:13:51 PM
Guys, you're killing me  :lol: Here's a rendering of Courthouse Plaza (left of the Federal Courthouse Tower), the Courthouse tower (aka Doubletree Hotel) project (upper right) and approximate location of the Ferchill site. If you're familiar with the Water Street Condominiums, it's right around there.

(http://www.clevelandskyscrapers.com/plaza5.jpg)
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: Punch on October 17, 2005, 02:17:31 PM
OK, how does the new development fit in with "district park"?
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: KJP on October 17, 2005, 03:43:12 PM
The site is just east of the Wolstein development, between the lakefront railroad tracks and Front Street, just west of West 9th (the bridge to nowhere across the tracks).

KJP
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: pcforsgren on October 18, 2005, 01:21:48 PM
crossing my fingers on that one... god it would be nice if district park came back.  DOWN WITH PARKING LOTS!! DOWN WITH PARKING LOTS!! (chanting)
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: KJP on October 18, 2005, 07:47:14 PM
Speaking of parking lots, there's another major development brewing. It could be delivered to the city for approval in January, but I suspect you'll hear about before then (hopefully much sooner, if I can break the story). In other words, stay tuned.

KJP
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: Map Boy on October 18, 2005, 07:50:30 PM
you are a cruel, cruel man Mr P!
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: zaceman on October 18, 2005, 07:54:08 PM
what??  another one??
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: KJP on October 18, 2005, 07:58:41 PM
Sorry. But I don't want to jinx it. And I don't want the PD, Crain's or anyone else to jump on this first. Sun is beating the PD on the CMHA plan to build the Hope VI development east of East 9th Street on the Waterfront Line, and we're going to try to beat them on this, too.

Since I started covering the Cleveland beat, I'm absolutely amazed at all the story tips, press releases and other potential news items I get. I wrote eight articles for this week's paper, and I could've written twice that many, but had to ignore the others. When I covered only the western suburbs, I was lucky to have 3-4 stories a week about new development projects, or updates on ongoing ones. Now, my head is spinning!

KJP
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: Map Boy on October 18, 2005, 11:40:37 PM
good for you!  go little guy media outlet!  i'm just excited to hear that there's more stuff a-brewin' out there!
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: 3231 on October 18, 2005, 11:44:50 PM
KJP,

Cruel and unusual punishment.  That is aweseome that there is another project brewing out there. Can I sign up for KJP Insider and get the news early?  I am willing to pay $5.95 a month.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: KJP on October 19, 2005, 07:53:29 AM
Little guy media outlet? Sun is the largest chain of suburban weeklies in the nation! We have 28 papers in Greater Cleveland.

Wimwar, If I can't get the developer to go on the record and can't get an article in for next Thursday, drop me a private message.

KJP
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: gotribe on October 19, 2005, 08:16:52 AM
I'm just going to guess, but I would think it would have to be the warehouse district lot at W6 and St Clair and Marous or possibly Georgalis might be the developer.  Just a guess, maybe a good one. 
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: 3231 on October 19, 2005, 08:24:29 AM
Gotribe,

West 6th and St. Claire?  There is only one lot at that corner.  But, that lot is mamoth.  How much of that lot would your guess entail?
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: gotribe on October 19, 2005, 08:36:22 AM
Wimwar, if you remember, there was a development planned for this lot back in the late 90's that took up almost all of the area.  It was a long 6 to 7 story building (residential) with a parking facility and ground level retail.  It came pretty close to being built, but if I remember correctly, there was a problem with aquiring the lot from the owner.  If something was built here, I would assume it would be lowrise and sprawling.  Almost like urban townhomes. 
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: 3231 on October 19, 2005, 09:17:23 AM
KJP,

In which Sun will/do your articles appear? All of them?
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: Map Boy on October 19, 2005, 09:29:36 AM
Quote
Little guy media outlet? Sun is the largest chain of suburban weeklies in the nation! We have 28 papers in Greater Cleveland.

I knew I was going to get a good response out of this as soon as I hit "post!"  Regardless of your circulation, I still think of Sun as the "little guy" because I would get it once a week and you've got the local police blotter and little "fix it" spots (at least in the Sun Press) where someone wrote a dirty word on a street sign and the residents demand that it be remedied!  I love the Sun Press, though.  I used to get it delivered to me in Brooklyn, NY.  It's just a more community-based paper and has that small-town feel to it.

I echo Wimwar in asking where your work will now appear and am also itching to get the scoop from you!  I'll sign a confidentiality statement if you want me to!
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: KJP on October 19, 2005, 01:16:07 PM
My articles appear mostly in the West Side Sun, Brooklyn Sun Journal and the Sun Herald (West Shore), but some can appear in any of them if they are regional in scope.

KJP
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: gotribe on October 19, 2005, 01:34:05 PM
My other guess for a project for a parking lot would be the lot for the old Petersons Nut and Millenium management on E9 and Carnegie.  Maybe the Jacobs would have some money in that.  Sorry if I'm bugging you with these guesses, but this is kind of intriguing.  This lot would make a nice gateway to the city off of 77 and I believe both places are out of business. 
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: 3231 on October 19, 2005, 01:39:54 PM
My guess would be the parking lot next to the Marshall building on W. 9th.  That has been mentioned before.  My hope would be that either the St. Claire/W.6th lot or District Park.  It seems that District Park would definitely help Wolstein get tenants for the East Bank.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: Map Boy on October 19, 2005, 02:14:06 PM
Since we're playing this game, I'm going for the lot on Prospect between the Gund and E. 4th.  A little outside of the realm of this thread, but that's my guess, so tough!
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: sooner on October 19, 2005, 02:16:00 PM
Is is Johnson Court? Is it? Is it?
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: gotribe on October 19, 2005, 02:19:26 PM
^ That actually is a good guess.  Being that lot is the staging area for Pinnacle for Construction, they might start it when that is done. 
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: 3231 on October 19, 2005, 02:20:01 PM
Since we're playing this game, I'm going for the lot on Prospect between the Gund and E. 4th.  A little outside of the realm of this thread, but that's my guess, so tough!

Hey, that would be a great lot to develop. 
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: KJP on October 19, 2005, 04:20:14 PM
You guys are getting out of hand. If I knew my teaser was going to have this effect, I wouldn't have teased! Sorry guys! Now I fear it's going to be a letdown....

KJP
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: Punch on October 19, 2005, 04:24:03 PM
Is it a new bus stop?
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: 3231 on October 19, 2005, 04:55:50 PM
My guess is that its a new hot dog vendor on W. 9th and St. Claire.  That corner really needed one. 
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: urbanlife on October 19, 2005, 05:47:58 PM
an official E.4 announcement is due this week, but this sounds like something different.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: KJP on October 19, 2005, 05:54:41 PM
Now you're getting warm! (referring to the hot dog stand)

KJP
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: X on October 19, 2005, 07:28:01 PM
It's going to the the vacant lot on Public Square right!?  Progressive has finally decided to come downtown and build a skyscraper, taller than Ameritrust Center was going to have been?  I can taste it!
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: Map Boy on October 19, 2005, 08:59:48 PM
see what you've done KJP?!
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: 3231 on October 19, 2005, 09:16:15 PM
It's going to the the vacant lot on Public Square right!?  Progressive has finally decided to come downtown and build a skyscraper, taller than Ameritrust Center was going to have been?  I can taste it!

X, you're on to something.  This time, Peter B. Lewis has contracted with Frank Gehry to do a giant hot dog-shaped skyscraper.  He wanted something unique for Cleveland.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: X on October 19, 2005, 09:28:10 PM
As long as its made of individually computer-designed and machine-torqued stainless steel plates I am happy.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: 3231 on October 19, 2005, 10:19:47 PM
X,

Gehry has some new cutting-edge software that he's using to forge seemless curved-metal structures.  The new Progressive tower will be lifted into place by the end of the week. 
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: KJP on October 19, 2005, 10:38:01 PM
Just call me Dr. Frankenstein, as I've created a monster I can no longer control....

KJP
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: X on October 19, 2005, 11:13:16 PM
X,

Gehry has some new cutting-edge software that he's using to forge seemless curved-metal structures.  The new Progressive tower will be lifted into place by the end of the week. 

Ahhh....must be made of aluminium.  Good to know.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: 3231 on October 19, 2005, 11:19:09 PM
^aluminum?..I've heard that he's now experimenting with vinyl. 
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: X on October 19, 2005, 11:26:37 PM
Yes, for the curtain wall.  But the framing is cardboard.  Corragated for rigidity, of course.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: 3231 on October 19, 2005, 11:27:47 PM
Frank is so daring.  He crosses boundaries that other architects would never even consider.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: pcforsgren on October 20, 2005, 12:37:21 AM
Quote
Little guy media outlet? Sun is the largest chain of suburban weeklies in the nation! We have 28 papers in Greater Cleveland.

If I have my facts straight, the Sun weeklys are owned by Advance Publications, as is The Plain Dealer.  At the corporate level that is, they have seperate subsidiary companies (Plain Dealer Publishing Co. etc)
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: Map Boy on October 20, 2005, 10:13:41 AM
our beloved Sun papers come out today, correct?  Any updates???
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: KJP on October 20, 2005, 10:56:12 AM
Correct, but the only articles I had this week that might be of interest here are on the Towpath Trail and the reopening of Deaconess as MetroHealth's South Campus (and its impact on Old Brooklyn). That neighborhood could (and should) be more like University Circle, what with the hospital facilities, zoo and high-density housing.

Nothing about aluminum hot dog stands yet. I wasn't expecting the article to be done by our weekly deadline -- each Tuesday.

KJP
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: gotribe on October 20, 2005, 12:36:57 PM
^If someone builds an enormous hotdog shaped building in Cleveland, I'm moving to Mansfield.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: CtownD on October 20, 2005, 05:17:56 PM
Maybe it's not a building at all, could be a tasteful new Claes Oldenburg sculpture for the warehouse district.  A giant hot dog of course.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: Qwios on October 22, 2005, 01:54:54 AM
For whatever reason the Wolsteins are running ads about the "new" flats...  A guy walking along the river with little sketched buildings...  Start of a public relations battle I suppose.  It had a sort of believe in Cleveland tag line.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: MyTwoSense on October 22, 2005, 01:56:58 PM
For whatever reason the Wolsteins are running ads about the "new" flats...  A guy walking along the river with little sketched buildings...  Start of a public relations battle I suppose.  It had a sort of believe in Cleveland tag line.

Smart.  bambi marketing 101!  Its get people talking about it.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: blinker12 on November 03, 2005, 11:19:21 AM
Surprised no one posted this yet, but here ya go. Bring on the eminent domain!! ;)


Flats developer hopes to close deals quickly
Wednesday, November 02, 2005
Sarah Hollander
Plain Dealer Reporter

Sales offers should reach Flats property owners caught between the status quo and an extensive east bank neighborhood redevelopment plan in a couple weeks. If negotiations fail, the port authority stands ready to step in.

The Cleveland-Cuyahoga County Port Authority, which will finance the majority of the public investment in the project, voted Tuesday to pursue the properties through eminent domain if necessary.

More at cleveland.com http://www.cleveland.com (http://www.cleveland.com)
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: KJP on November 29, 2005, 09:06:08 AM
This was on MetroNetworks....

City Council Frees Money For Flats, East 4th Projects     
11-29-2005 9:09 AM

(Cleveland, OH) -- Projects to improve The Flats and the East Fourth Street corridor will move forward. Cleveland City Council approved the release of six-million-dollars to help fund building projects in those neighborhoods. Council members had to rewrite an earlier ordinance that left only two-million-dollars available. Housing and shops will be built on the east bank of The Flats, while a bowling alley is under construction on East Fourth.

######
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: Map Boy on November 29, 2005, 09:23:00 AM
I understand the Flats funding, but why more funding for the bowling alley? 
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: 3231 on November 29, 2005, 09:28:21 AM
^I believe that part of the draw of the bowling alley will be the solid gold bowling balls that patrons will use.  For this to happen, the city had to kick in some funds.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: 3231 on November 30, 2005, 08:21:52 AM
Well, we were worried about his preference for his neighborhood over downtown projects.  This is a good sign.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: Map Boy on November 30, 2005, 11:17:45 AM
Is it, though?  I know there's a lot of money out there for neighborhood projects from intermediaries like LISC and NPI, but this seems a little odd.  Especially considering that a $200 million-plus transformative project like the Flats East Bank will be getting only $1.5 million more from this move than a bowling alley on E. 4th...what's that all about?  I thought the subsidies were all in for E. 4th already...unless this is somehow tied to historic tax credits or something.  I don't think that a use like a glorified bowling alley should be built if it can't be done on its own...where will a public subsidy fit in with something like this that should only be built if the market will allow it?

I know, this is contrary to a lot of what I've said before, but this just strikes me as very odd...
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: blinker12 on November 30, 2005, 11:40:56 AM
I agree with you about the bowling alley, MGD. I could understand if there were a residential component to the project, but as far as I know it's just a bowling alley. Now, they do seem to be renovating the upper floors of the buildings that the alley will be in -- perhaps there are plans for offices or apartments up there? If that were the case, I'd support the subsidy. If not, I'd say the money would be much better spent elsewhere.

I AM quite happy to see the city so solidly supporting Wolstein, though. So far it seems the city is doing everything they can to make this project happen -- from rezoning to financial support.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: MayDay on November 30, 2005, 11:55:26 AM
Folks, the upper floors of the "bowling alley" building (and the buildings immediately east) are indeed being renovated for residential use. That's been part of the plan all along  :-)
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: 3231 on November 30, 2005, 12:18:06 PM
Is it, though?  I know there's a lot of money out there for neighborhood projects from intermediaries like LISC and NPI, but this seems a little odd.  Especially considering that a $200 million-plus transformative project like the Flats East Bank will be getting only $1.5 million more from this move than a bowling alley on E. 4th...what's that all about?  I thought the subsidies were all in for E. 4th already...unless this is somehow tied to historic tax credits or something.  I don't think that a use like a glorified bowling alley should be built if it can't be done on its own...where will a public subsidy fit in with something like this that should only be built if the market will allow it?

I know, this is contrary to a lot of what I've said before, but this just strikes me as very odd...

Micro vs. Macro:  Overall, my point is that this shows an openness to looking at the entire city instead of just looking at the poor neighborhoods. Also, the Flats is getting a whole lot more than just 1.5 mil more. This is funding that is released incrementially.  You never give the developer all the cash up front, you stream it along as the project moves along.

I feel that labeling this as just a bowling alley is like calling Jacobs Field just a baseball diamond.  Well, not exactly to that extent, but you get the picture.  I've seen projects like this in Nashville and Memphis. They are huge. Bowling is just a part of it. 

Give and take between the city and a developer is all part of the negotiation process. 
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: KJP on November 30, 2005, 12:18:11 PM
I still owe all of you renderings of the bowling alley/housing project. The pics were in the PD about a month ago. I'll see about sending them through later today.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: blinker12 on November 30, 2005, 01:20:02 PM
I stand gladly corrected on the bowling alley. Didn't know it had apartments above.

Overall, my point is that this shows an openness to looking at the entire city instead of just looking at the poor neighborhoods.

True, though this excerpt from the article gives me pause:
"To secure the money for the East Fourth Street and Flats projects, Campbell proposed combining the pots of money, to use on any project anywhere in the city. Jackson opposed the idea because he wanted to keep money for neighborhood development intact. But he said Monday the city should not renege on its promises to Maron and Wolstein."

To me, that sounds like Jackson's only releasing the money because it was previously promised. I think there's enough momentum behind some of the downtown projects already proposed to keep them going, but I worry about Jackson's willingness to nurture future proposals.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: 3231 on November 30, 2005, 01:43:12 PM
Blinker,

I see what you're saying about Jackson.  Hopefully, that is the Council President Jackson speaking and not Mayor Jackson.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: Map Boy on November 30, 2005, 02:59:56 PM
Glad to hear all of this...I didn't know about the residential component either and that makes me more understanding of the subsidy.  I understand that Cleveland is a struggling market and that subsidies are required all around and that this is more than "just a bowling alley"  I just know how this article makes the City Council decision sound to me and I wonder what the general public reaction is to the necessity of a $1.5 million subsidy for a bowling alley.

Now, on the Jackson front, I'm not nearly as worried as I was prior to the election about his position on development and keeping the momentum going and perhaps making it even better in this city.  I think it's positive that he's willing to understand that Downtown should take priority at times, because honestly, Cleveland as a whole has a lot more at stake, fiscally, Downtown.  Of course, no one in their right minds would discount the importance of the neighborhoods, as that's where 98% of the population lives. 

I think there are a lot of people nervously waiting to see what Jackson's approach is to development and the Downtown v. Neighborhoods and "his" neighborhoods v. other neighborhoods issues (I'm one of them).  And this may be a positive sign, but there are also lots of people who have supported Jackson who have development interests in this city and I find that reassuring as well.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: sooner on December 01, 2005, 10:53:28 AM
Downtown is a neighborhood also.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: MyTwoSense on December 01, 2005, 11:22:43 AM
Downtown is a neighborhood also.

yes Downtown Cleveland is made up of several Neighborhoods/districts:

The Historic Gateway
The Historic Warehouse District
The East Bank (of the flats)
The West Bank (of the flats)
The Playhouse Square
North Coast (part of the Central business district)
TowerCity District  (part of the central business district)

in addtion there are fringe 'hoods like
perry-payne
kirkland-payne (asian village)
Historic Prospect
The Quadrangle

Downtown Cleveland is an optical illustion, it appears very small, and its current usable area is small compared to the actual borders of downtown.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: FerrariEnzo on December 08, 2005, 03:03:46 PM
Pictures of site to be re-developed:
(http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c28/holdeng/Picture080.jpg)

(http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c28/holdeng/Picture081.jpg)

(http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c28/holdeng/Picture082.jpg)

(http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c28/holdeng/Picture083.jpg)

(http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c28/holdeng/Picture084.jpg)

(http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c28/holdeng/Picture085.jpg)

(http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c28/holdeng/Picture087.jpg)
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: Punch on December 08, 2005, 05:58:44 PM
Slipping away
Linked articles 
»  Developer unveils bold blueprint for Flats office
»  Flats plan on approval fast track
»  Wolstein's Flats plan moves forward
 

 

By BRANDON GLENN

3:12 pm, December 8, 2005



While some business owners in the Flats dream of grandiose development projects, a far more mundane matter threatens the area along the banks of the Cuyahoga River, they say.

Bulkheads, which are retaining walls that prevent soil erosion and keep the river navigable, are aging and in need of replacement or repair, according to members of the Flats Oxbow Association, a group of area business owners.

More at crainscleveland.com http://www.crainscleveland.com (http://www.crainscleveland.com)
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: Map Boy on December 09, 2005, 10:08:11 AM
From what I've heard, the sewers are some of the oldest in the city.  That's not surprising, considering where they are, but this is the first time since the turn of the 20th Century (when they were installed) that there is a project in the works that warrants upgrading (replacing) them. 

I like this optimistic outlook from Wolstein.  And of course I like the baseball metaphor! 

The office building still seems to be a question mark, but the word on the streets is that it's a pretty solid spot and should be able to lure something pretty significant.  The question remains, though, who will the site lure?  Someone from elsewhere in Cleveland?  Someone from elsewhere in the region?  Or someone new to the region?  Let's hope for the latter!
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: blinker12 on December 11, 2005, 12:42:27 PM
Thanks for posting that, punch. Great news...
I hope infrastructure work really does start next year. We all like to see those cranes and trucks at work.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: FerrariEnzo on December 11, 2005, 02:22:13 PM
I may also add that I expect the architecture to be better seeing as the renderings released seem to be just massing models... I would hope we could get some stylistic mixing up...
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: 3231 on December 11, 2005, 03:05:46 PM
^They are massing models.  The designs are not yet complete.  I do like how the site plan.  It creates a new grid and provides a lot of access to the river.  As a past boater, I really like the transient marina.  I can see a lot of boaters visiting Cleveland during the summer because of this project. It will be a cute new urban neighborhood with many amenities.  You could dock your boat and take the WFL to the Rock Hall or to Tower City, or just walk around the WHD and East Bank.  North Coast Harbor should do a similar thing. 
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: buildingcincinnati on December 17, 2005, 05:38:45 PM
From the 12/17/05 PD:


Port authority to make offers on Flats properties
Saturday, December 17, 2005
Sarah Hollander and Christopher Montgomery
Plain Dealer Reporters


Sales offers for Flats property owners facing displacement by a neighborhood redevelopment plan are now expected next month.

Developer Scott Wolstein originally hoped to make the offers last month with the Cleveland-Cuyahoga County Port Authority ready to pursue eminent domain if negotiations failed.

More at
http://www.cleveland.com/news/plaindealer/index.ssf?/base/cuyahoga/1134812318245491.xml&coll=2 (http://www.cleveland.com/news/plaindealer/index.ssf?/base/cuyahoga/1134812318245491.xml&coll=2)
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: MyTwoSense on December 18, 2005, 02:10:02 PM
  North Coast Harbor should do a similar thing.  

Winmar you hit that right on the head.  Since NCH is a visitor destination with a rail line adjacent there should also be a music oriented hotel  such as the hard rock hotel or the the house of blues hotel.  since a movie theatre wont be needed in the area.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: Map Boy on January 18, 2006, 01:33:57 PM
Check out the Front Street Lofts site plan, posted on a new thread at http://www.urbanohio.com/forum2/index.php?topic=7120.0 (http://www.urbanohio.com/forum2/index.php?topic=7120.0).  This may be the Ferchill development from page 8 or so of this thread?
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: WoollyBear on January 23, 2006, 09:36:13 AM
I was just on properties website (www.propertiesmag.com) and they had an article saying that construction on the sewer lines may begin in the first quarter of this year, and that financing is in its final stages. They also said that the first tenants in an office building will hopefully be able to move in sometime next year, and that the whole project should be completed in 2008 or 2009. Anyways, check out the above website and you can view the entire magazine for free!
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: blinker12 on January 23, 2006, 03:41:06 PM
Thanks Woolly!
Also, this from the 1/21 PD:

Flats proposal moving ahead

Plans to convert the east bank of the Flats into a new neighborhood moved forward Friday with the approval of two contracts. The Cleveland-Cuyahoga County Port Authority's board authorized up to $51,000 for the Mannik & Smith Group to review a relocation consultant's work. Federal law requires the review. The board also approved up to $32,200 for URS Corp. to survey the property's location and environmental condition. The developer, the Wolstein Group, will pay for the contracts. The company owns about 70 percent of the proposed 20-acre site, with seven to eight others owning the rest. The port authority, which will finance the majority of the public investment in the project, plans to make purchase offers to the other owners and pursue eminent domain if negotiations fail.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: brtshrcegr on February 13, 2006, 08:21:29 PM
Sometimes you just never know when you're gonna find a gem....

This past Saturday night I was heading out on the Metro here in D.C. for a fun little night at a bar called Hawk & Dove, just a few blocks away from the Capitol.  On the floor of the usually spotless subway car, I notice a copy of the Whole Foods Market employee newsletter.  I start fipping through, and come a list of their future stores, and get great big smile on my face! (See below, second column)

I'm thinking that this must be referenceing the East Bank project; is their anywhere else right now that would be logical for their first store?

(http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e366/bgallo/wholefoods.jpg)
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: urbanlife on February 13, 2006, 08:30:20 PM
^ unless they rebrand the market in reserve square as part of the expansion and in anticipation of avenue district.   they are expanding/rebranding/rebuilding that market, but nobody seems to know what the exact details are.  this would be a good location as well.

it could also be "greater cleveland" as the Cedar Center is getting a Whole Foods:

Cedar Center Plaza   
   
 Sitting on the southwest corner of Warrensville Center and Cedar Roads is Cedar Center, a retail mainstay of University Heights, Ohio. Currently 20 acres of strip center facilities, the center is scheduled to be redeveloped into a retail / office complex beginning in 2005. When completed, Whole Foods will be joining CVS and Blockbuster Video as anchor tenant. Across Cedar Road is the newly developed University Square that is home to Target, Kaufman’s 

I hope there is one coming for downtown though...
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: MayDay on February 13, 2006, 08:34:48 PM
That's actually a store opening in Cedar Center in South Euclid.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: brtshrcegr on February 13, 2006, 10:39:32 PM
That's a good point, guys.  While it seems that they indicated openings in a metro by putting the actual location in parenthesis after the main city (see Chicago, etc.), I'm still feel you're probably right on this one.  But at least they'll be in the market and have a rep in the area that'll surely see the virtue of locating downtown.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: Punch on February 14, 2006, 04:55:46 PM
I thought Steelyard commons was going to have one.
Not sure why I think that

From the whole foods website
Ohio
Cleveland
Whole Foods Market
Cedar & Warrensville Rd.
Cleveland, OH
44,268 sq. ft.
Opening date to be announced

Love that internet
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: musky on March 08, 2006, 08:21:57 AM
In today's PD.


Quote
Flats property owners get offers
New neighborhood proposed for area
Wednesday, March 08, 2006
Sarah Hollander and Christopher Montgomery
Plain Dealer Reporters

Offers have gone out for 13 parcels blocking developer Scott Wolstein's plans to convert the struggling east bank of the Flats into a new Cleveland neighborhood.

Negotiations with property owners began this week and will likely continue for several more, said John Loftus, vice president of regional development for the Cleveland-Cuyahoga County Port Authority.

Representatives of the port authority, which is overseeing the company making the offers, say they hope to avoid eminent domain, but won't hesitate to use it as a last resort.

More at cleveland.com http://www.cleveland.com (http://www.cleveland.com)


Let the litigation begin.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: Map Boy on March 08, 2006, 10:51:20 AM
Crap...This sounds a lot more complex than I had thought.  With the way eminent domain cases are going these days, it could be years before things are sorted out. 

What, if any, work can be started without these properties in hand?
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: 3231 on March 08, 2006, 10:54:31 AM
I would think that there will be negotiation before ED is used.  Of course Wolstein is going to lowball them at this point.  He is inviting counter offers.  Hopefully, Wolstein will be realistic and not try to drag this out too much.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: Map Boy on March 08, 2006, 10:59:26 AM
Another comment... I know that in proposing a project of this size, Wolstein needed to go to the City for support, which he got.  The public is really into this project and such a big deal has been made of it that it seemingly HAS to go through.  However, how much more difficult is it going to be to secure the remaining parcels with these grand plans and the neighborhood's profit potential being broadcast on the front page?  These 7-8 owners have every right to demand what their properties are worth, but now they can hold out, knowing just how critical their parcel is to the entire project.  Herein lies some of the need for eminent domain, but I wonder how this could have been avoided...if at all.  The same question goes for Stark's proposals for the WHD...which are at a much earlier stage.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: MayDay on March 08, 2006, 12:37:45 PM
Keep in mind that the recent Supreme Court ruling also gives the City a little more 'umph' when it comes to eminent domain. So, it may not take as long (should it go to ED proceedings) as previous cases would take.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: gotribe on March 08, 2006, 01:14:06 PM
I would think that there will be negotiation before ED is used.  Of course Wolstein is going to lowball them at this point.  He is inviting counter offers.  Hopefully, Wolstein will be realistic and not try to drag this out too much.
Personaaly, I think Wolstein is being realistic.  Those properties in the flats shouldn't be worth much at all.  There is nothing going for the flats right now.  If it weren't for Wolstein, these people woldn't be offered a penny for their place today.  Who the heck wants to buy a restaurant in the flats right now.  I think what Wolstein is doing is saying, "listen buddy, if you don't take my offer, you can sit down hear and rot in debt.  I'm the last guy that's going to offer you a penny for this building.  It's not 1990 any more.  You have a bad location." 
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: blinker12 on March 08, 2006, 01:35:40 PM
Agreed, gotribe. What difference does it make what they paid in 2004? The Flats has been on a downward spiral for years, and it's not going to stop until someone does something dramatic (i.e. this project). If the owners hold out, their property will just continue to depreciate -- especially if Wolstein's stuff, which comprises 80% of the site, continues to sit and rot.

Still, let's not have a collective anxiety attack yet. It's still very early in the negotiations... no one expected the owners to sell at first offer.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: mrnyc on March 08, 2006, 02:21:26 PM
absolutely. its normal to start out with lowball offers. wolstein knows what the owners paid for the properties and when as well as what they are worth today, its all just part of the game.

imo the much bigger news is that it has come out to the public that serious offers are being put out there. that means its officially the next step forward and that the project is picking up steam.

i doubt anyone holds out until eminent domain, its only a handful of properties and the tone seems good, everyone seems enthused about wolstein's plans. we can only wait and hope.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: Map Boy on March 08, 2006, 02:33:57 PM
You're right mrnyc, cases that go to ed hearings are rare.  everyone's got to act in their own best interest and that usually means settling on a price outside of court.

i like the comment, b12, that we were all on the verge of a "collective anxiety attack."  well put!  we can always count on you to bring us back down to earth.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: j73 on March 08, 2006, 08:47:33 PM
Personaaly, I think Wolstein is being realistic.  Those properties in the flats shouldn't be worth much at all.  There is nothing going for the flats right now.  If it weren't for Wolstein, these people woldn't be offered a penny for their place today.  Who the heck wants to buy a restaurant in the flats right now.  I think what Wolstein is doing is saying, "listen buddy, if you don't take my offer, you can sit down hear and rot in debt.  I'm the last guy that's going to offer you a penny for this building.  It's not 1990 any more.  You have a bad location." 

While it's certainly not 1990, some of the businesses down there do ok, and one group was willing to pay $1.6MM in June.  It's not like the Flats has gone down hill a lot since then...  Even 2004 wasn't too long ago and long after the Flats really turned down.  Even if the area isn't booming, the properties are still worth *something*, especially since many of them are functioning, if not necessarily thriving, businesses.

Still, blinker12 is right: no need to flip out yet...
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: musky on March 09, 2006, 01:10:51 PM
I have a question.
Assume all of the property owners and Wolstein come to terms except for the owners of the Circus, or whatever it's called now.
Assume that this ends up going to ED.
With the state wide moratorium on ED currently in place for the next ten months or so, what do you perceive to be the next steps in gaining that last parcel. (Again assuming, that it actually gets to that point that quickly).
Just wondering.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: 3231 on March 09, 2006, 01:23:45 PM
I think that the Flats project is grandfathered in because it started before the legislation took effect.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: gotribe on March 09, 2006, 01:53:49 PM
With all the plublicity this project has received over the past year or so, these property owners have had their heads filled to nearly explosive limits.  Flats this flats that blah, blah, blah.  The new neighborhood in Cleveland.  The rebirth of the flats etc etc.  I'm going to become a millionaire once they buy me out!  Plain and simple, these people now feal like they are sitting on the most valuable piece of land in Cuyahoga County.  Honestly, I don't think Wolstein and his people believe that.  Infact, i don't think Wolstein has enough faith in his project to pay top dollar for property.  This is a very risky developement for Cleveland.  I think were in for a long ride of negotiations, looks like a deal has been made....or wait, no it hasn't.   
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: gotribe on March 09, 2006, 02:00:48 PM
I thought a while back, maybe Wolstein should have never gone public with this announcement until he secured the properties.  One year ago at this time, property owners were probably struggling with their business they would have taken the first offer that came along. 
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: Punch on March 09, 2006, 02:24:36 PM
^rumors are hard to keep quiet.
Pesky reporters are always ready to scuttle a project just to get a scoop.  Look what KJP did to Pesht!

(JUST KIDDING KJP!!!!!!!!!!)
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: X on March 09, 2006, 02:42:54 PM
Everyone down there has known for some time that Wolstein has been assembling land down there.  They also know that that is why their portion of the Flats is damn near empty.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: gotribe on March 09, 2006, 03:29:56 PM
I understand that they have known for sometime.  What I am saying is that with the press this project has received, land-owners feal as though they deserve top dollar.  If it weren't publicized so much, they would have looked at Wolsteins proposal as a chance to get out while they can versus a goldmine sale.  Not putting media or reporters down at all, just saying how the media sources, in a way, put the ball in the land owners court.   
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: X on March 09, 2006, 11:29:47 PM
I'm sure the land owners know alot more about what the value of their properties are than what they could have learned from reading about this project in the paper.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: Ewoops on March 10, 2006, 08:35:32 AM
Musky and Wimwar, the moratorium on eminent domain shouldn't impact the Flats Project, because the Flats land has been declared blighted, so it could be taken under the old standard, which is still in place under the moratorium.  So even if it isn't grandfathered in, using eminent domain here is ok.

I think the moratorium suspends the taking of unblighted property for private rather than public use, which is for the first time clearly constitional due to the Supreme Court's recent decision.  However, the use of eminent domain is a huge political problem, because of the backlash from the recent SC decision.  That might impact the Flats project.  Particularly with Shia, or whatever that guy's name is, who is proposing his own development, although I hear it's more of a negotiating tactic to get more money out of Wolstein. 
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: KJP on March 10, 2006, 08:46:18 AM
Maybe it's working, since Shaia's Front Street Lofts' retail component is no longer listed on the Kelley & Visconsi retail brokerage web site. I will post a different message about this in the Front Street Lofts string.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: Map Boy on March 28, 2006, 08:58:17 AM
Flats property prices anything but flat
Owners try to cut tax, sell for more
Tuesday, March 28, 2006
Sarah Hollander
Plain Dealer Reporter

The majority of owners of Flats east bank properties sought by developer Scott Wolstein have asked the county to devalue their real estate in recent years, for lower tax burdens.

While the requests may have saved the owners money in the short term, they could hurt them during sales negotiations now under way.

More at cleveland.com http://www.cleveland.com (http://www.cleveland.com)
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: blinker12 on March 28, 2006, 09:41:53 AM
I'm glad to see the owners' greed exposed, but am also dismayed by their stubbornness.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: MayDay on March 28, 2006, 10:06:09 AM
Their arguments for higher offers don't hold much water considering how much of a de-valuation they've asked for.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: Matches on March 28, 2006, 10:06:39 AM
Ok, forgive me, but I'm not going to call property owners out for being so "stubborn" in that they do not want to be forced to sell their property, in some cases for less than what the county insists it is worth and in probably all cases, much less than it's actual worth to the private interests that wish to buy it. 

Greed is one thing, but it goes both ways.  "Greed" is wanting your property devalued so you don't have to pay as much in tax, sure.   But greed ISN'T wanting several pieces of property but not being willing to pay what the owners want for it, so to solve this issue you go to "legal" means to force them to do what you want.   That's not greedy at all, is it?

Look, I hope it gets done, and quickly.  But if we're going to ignore property rights (what fun), can we at the very least can we not pretend that only one side of equation is guilty of this horrible sin of greed?

If they are still arguing for devaluations - hey, county, give it to them.  Then the owners have no leg to stand on.  Either that or use their demand for higher offers to increase their tax burden and force them to sell or get something together.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: blinker12 on March 28, 2006, 10:38:12 AM
Ok, forgive me, but I'm not going to call property owners out for being so "stubborn" in that they do not want to be forced to sell their property, in some cases for less than what the county insists it is worth and in probably all cases, much less than it's actual worth to the private interests that wish to buy it.

That gets to one of the thorniest questions around eminent domain. Yes, the property is worth more because of Wolstein's interest in it -- but that appreciation is dependent on the development happening. If Wolstein weren't doing FEB, these owners would still be fighting for devaluations, and rightfully so -- the East Bank has been going down the tubes fast. But because he is, suddenly they're asking for more money. Is this defensible?

I look at it this way. In one scenario (development happens), the land is worth more. In the other (development doesn't happen), the land continues to lose value. IMO a good compromise is to pay the current assessed value of the property, which is in most cases what Wolstein is offering.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: gotribe on March 28, 2006, 01:33:24 PM
I still think Wolstein should have approached these owners 3 years ago before any news came out and offered them a price.  Really, I think at that time it may have taken him about a month to squabble up all the owners.  Nobody else wantede anything to do with the Flats at that time. 
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: X on March 28, 2006, 03:22:40 PM
These people didn't learn about Wolstein's interest from the news. If a buyer begins trying to buy up substantial pieces of property in a particular area, word WILL spread like wildfire.  Neighbors talk.  Also, property acquisition is extremely time consuming, and the lawyers, agents, etc, will be damn sure to check and see what is happening with other real estate in the area.  The news has nothing to do with it.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: KJP on March 28, 2006, 05:32:20 PM
^ Not unless you're willing to form a number of different companies and use different law firms for each to conduct the acquisitions. That's how T.J. Asher acquired the numerous parking lots in the Warehouse District without attracting any attention until he and Stark started making noise about their intentions.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: urbanlife on March 28, 2006, 05:45:31 PM
This 'plan' has been on the board for many years.  All of the property owners knew that Wolstein was aquiring land, and chose not to sell. 

Unfortunately, instead of taking some risks and making solid investments in the area, the other property owners have sat on their land. 

vison?  risk?  rewards?  'believe in cleveland?'  not for this group - it's a lot easier to just pay the taxes and wait for someone else to do the hard work.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: downtowndreamer on March 29, 2006, 12:24:22 PM
This looks like an uphill battle for Wolstein.  At least District Park and The avenue District are moving forward.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: Map Boy on March 29, 2006, 12:27:02 PM
what?  don't tease... District Park hasn't been mentioned for months... are you talking about Battery Park?
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: downtowndreamer on March 29, 2006, 01:16:20 PM
My bad, I thought District Park was moving forward with the whole GBSL thing.

Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: urbanlife on March 29, 2006, 05:14:39 PM
the holdout property owners are having a meeting tomorrow to announce their own plan.  apparently, there is some talk of them buying out Wolstein. 

This is what has to stop for Cleveland to move forward.  Waterfront property sitting undeveloped, money sitting on the sidelines.  If these owners had such good ideas, why didn't they build some housing of their own?
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: Punch on March 29, 2006, 05:52:26 PM
^I think they can then say "we were trying to undervalue our persent property becasue we wanted to make this super project"  "If there is eminent domain, we will have lost our opportunity to go forward with our never mentioned before super project, so we are really going to need a boat load of cash"

God love 'em for trying
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: ohiocity1 on March 29, 2006, 06:21:39 PM
I was told by an insider at DDR that the e.bank has nothing to do with them and that its a "Wolstein only" project.  Maybe this was known, but I thought the money of DDR would be behind it.  Will this effect the project?
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: 3231 on March 29, 2006, 08:37:26 PM
This has always been the case.  Its supposedly too risky of a project for the corporate entity to take on.  Its a Wolstein family project all the way.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: Vulpster03 on March 29, 2006, 09:09:06 PM
Well good for Wolstein. I think it will be pretty successful. I think people really want to go to the Flats again. It needs something newer and better than before.

My impression of the recent article about the holdouts from these owners is that they wanted their property devauled so they could pay low property taxes. But now that the property is being sought after, they are throwing a hissy fit and demanding a lot more money than their property is worth based on the legal value that they fought so hard to lower. I mean I guess you can't blame them. They want as much as they can get out of it, but after seeing the offers published for some of these properties, I think these owners are foolish not to take the money and invest in new property somewhere else.  They won't get an offer like this in the future if this project doesn't go through.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: blinker12 on March 31, 2006, 10:42:11 AM
Give us more money or we'll revive Flats ourselves, owners say
Friday, March 31, 2006
Sarah Hollander
Plain Dealer Reporter

Owners of property on the east bank of the Flats could float a plan to revive the area as an entertainment mecca if negotiations to buy their land fail.

Developer Scott Wolstein wants to acquire more than a dozen properties off Old River Road and Front Avenue to create a neighborhood backed by public investment in roads, a riverwalk and utility upgrades.

A number of the owners are considering other options because they think recent purchase offers are too low.

More at cleveland.com http://www.cleveland.com (http://www.cleveland.com)
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: Robclevoh on March 31, 2006, 11:26:45 AM
The owners have said they have there own plan. i believe that when they close all the bars and stop teens from getting killed there, after the whole tax scam f the owners.

I have alot of hope for this project. Good luck to Mr Wolstein. hopefully he over come this!
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: Redbeard1969 on April 04, 2006, 12:13:10 PM
If the owners have "their own plan," why haven't they announced it sooner?  They're just blowing smoke to get more money.  There hasn't been a unified plan for the Flats in a long time.  If Wolstein can't develop the East Bank the way he planned, I don't think anyone will for a long while.  And any development there won't be planned well, but shoehorned in.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: MayDay on April 04, 2006, 12:29:39 PM
"Owners of property on the east bank of the Flats could float a plan to revive the area as an entertainment mecca"

Yeah, I think they already tried that - it was called the 1980s.

"To say they were insulted is an understatement," said former Brook Park Mayor Tom Coyne, representing Tony George.

Well a lot of constituents were insulted when he was found passed out and naked in someone's driveway, and subsequently in violation of parole but hey! :roll:

http://www.enquirer.com/editions/2004/08/23/loc_loc1ohmay.html (http://www.enquirer.com/editions/2004/08/23/loc_loc1ohmay.html)
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: Robclevoh on April 04, 2006, 04:15:54 PM
I think it fits him to represent a stripclub and all 3 bars. he's a stripper and a drunk.



Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: Map Boy on April 06, 2006, 07:35:06 PM
A PD editorial from yesterday...

The Flats shakedown
Some of those most responsible for the East Bank's long illness put the squeeze on a plan that might restore it to health
Wednesday, April 05, 2006

Get this: Some of the slumlords who've helped run the East Bank of the Flats into the ground now say that they are insulted by the offers for their properties from developer Scott Wolstein.

In fact, they are so offended that they just might renovate the Flats on their own.

These slumlords and their sycophants are even whispering that Wolstein, who owns about 70 percent of the land needed for his planned riverside residential and retail complex, helped kill the Flats as an entertainment destination - perhaps by trying to bring family fare such as Max and Erma's to the land of stale beer, fake IDs and public urination.

More at cleveland.com http://www.cleveland.com (http://www.cleveland.com)
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: KJP on April 06, 2006, 08:53:13 PM
^ Way to go PeeDee!
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: CtownD on April 06, 2006, 10:25:54 PM
They certainly hit the nail on the head.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: KJP on April 14, 2006, 08:45:53 PM
It gets better (or worse, depending on how sick my sense of humor is at any given time)....

I spoke to someone today who was in the room during a negotiating session between the port authority and the owners of the various Flats properties. When Tony George was asked to give a counterproposal to the port authority's purchase offer, he responded with "Blow me."

That's a direct quote. It went downhill from there.

Tony George told a city official that if the Flats East Bank redevelopment project wasn't withdrawn, he would reactivate his "Ohio Citizens League" campaign to shrink the number of city council members. We sure do have a lot of rich, adult crybabies in this city.

For more information about George's recent desire to reduce the size of council, see  http://www.freetimes.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=2985

He dropped that campaign because he said he was satisfied with the way things were being run by council. I suspect he (or a close friend/associate) was personally "satisfied" in some way. Though I doubt it was because someone was willing to relent to his request to "Blow me" (at least not literally).

Really classy, Tony.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: Map Boy on April 14, 2006, 08:59:50 PM
The thought of this guy wielding any sort of power is frightening...
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: 3231 on April 14, 2006, 10:00:50 PM
Its good to know that we have some eloquent businessmen in this community. 
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: musky on April 14, 2006, 11:01:18 PM
And we wonder why nothing is happening on the convention center front.
(He is on the Convention Facilities Authority, if you didnt know)


did anybody catch the licence plate of the foot that just went in my mouth :?
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: sky on April 15, 2006, 09:49:47 AM
Wolstein needs to cut a deal with the Shaia's so that Lighthouse Landing can be build nextdoor to Flats East Bank.  Lighthouse Landing looks like a amazing urban project ... to be build at the NW corner of the Warehouse District on West 10th and Front Avenue. 

The word is that Wolstein wants to take Shaia's property (eminent domain) and keep it as a surface parking lot, while Shaia (the actual owner of the land) has detailed development plans that include providing parking spaces for Wolstein in a new garage.  Apparently, Shaia has the full support of the Historic Warehouse District to develop Lighthouse Landings with extra parking for Wolstein, meanwhile Wolstein is looking for a "land grab" ... something smells funny!!
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: clvlndr on April 15, 2006, 11:45:19 AM
In yesterday's PD.  (btw, I agreed totally w/ PD's last week's editorial).  I'm a little queasy about thumbing my nose at Shaia if he's for real with such development possibility.  It would be nice if our new mayor could get Shaia, Wolstein and the PA together in a room somewhere and work this out.  The potshots Wolstein and PA are taking at Shaia worry me.  While I understand PA and Wolstein's need for parking, but if Shaia's serious about his plans, you can't toss the guy in the Lake.

2nd project in Flats may replace parking
Friday, April 14, 2006
Christopher Montgomery
Plain Dealer Reporter
A proposed $75 million residential development in the Warehouse District has added another wrinkle to developer Scott Wolstein's plan to remake the east bank of Cleveland's Flats.
The people behind the new project, which would include 228 for-sale housing units, argue they aren't trying to complicate things. They say their project will complement Wolstein's development rather than compete with it.
But a spokeswoman for Wolstein flatly dismissed the project, calling the timing of the announcement "suspect" and saying Wolstein has the only viable option to make "anything of scale happen in the Flats -- period."

More at cleveland.com http://www.cleveland.com (http://www.cleveland.com)
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: KJP on April 15, 2006, 05:33:37 PM
^ that article was already posted at the Front Street Lofts thread (which is what Lighthouse Landing was called initially).

Apparently, Shaia has the full support of the Historic Warehouse District to develop Lighthouse Landings with extra parking for Wolstein, meanwhile Wolstein is looking for a "land grab" ... something smells funny!!

I will answer this at the Front Street Lofts thread.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: Map Boy on April 17, 2006, 11:36:08 AM
And we wonder why nothing is happening on the convention center front.
(He is on the Convention Facilities Authority, if you didnt know)

Are John George and Tony George the same person?
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: KJP on April 17, 2006, 01:17:18 PM
No. Tony George's first name is actually Thomas.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: KJP on April 21, 2006, 11:36:29 AM
The port authority was expected to pass a resolution this morning that will authorize its law firm to use eminent domain to acquire land for the Flats East Bank redevelopment. The land includes 21 parcels owned by 21 companies. I haven't yet heard if the port authority board has authorized its law firm to proceed, or which property are, or are not being targeted.

Also, the property owners are now alleging that Wolstein doesn't own the 70 percent of land needed for his redevelopment, but instead owns just 30 percent.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: KJP on April 21, 2006, 12:24:57 PM
The last quote, from port Chairman John Carney, says a lot! I'm sure the property owners have their own take...
__________________________

http://www.portofcleveland.com/news/newsdetail.asp?NewsID=126

News Releases
Contact: Jeri Waters
Communications Manager

(Click for Print Version)

Federal Regulations Ensure for Equity Flats Owners
Posted: 4/21/2006


– The Cleveland-Cuyahoga County Port Authority voted unanimously to authorize eminent domain proceedings if further negotiations do not result in the acquisition of several properties identified for redevelopment in the Flats east bank.

Eminent domain is always a last resort, but the agency must be prepared when all good faith efforts to reach an agreement have been exhausted, Chairman John Carney said today at the port’s board meeting.

“We are still hopeful we can resolve this situation before it actually goes to the courts. That is still our desire,” he said.

John Loftus, the port authority’s vice president of regional development, said the steps taken to acquire the properties met stringent state and federal guidelines designed to protect the financial interests of owners during negotiations for their properties.

Since the Flats redevelopment project involved federal money, the Uniform Relocation Act takes precedence in governing compensation to property owners and provisions for relocation assistance, he said.

“The law very clearly spells out the rules for acquiring property for redevelopment. We are not given a choice in the matter. Either we follow the letter of the law, or the project could be in jeopardy,” Loftus told board members.

Ohio’s policies regarding Uniform Relocation mirror those of the federal government, Loftus said.

The port’s role as coordinator of public funding for the project and its experience on numerous other complex development projects made it logical for the agency to also manage land appropriations for the venture.

“We are committed to treating the business owners fairly and also seeing this development project through to completion,” Carney said.

“The project will transform a crime-ridden area plagued with neglected buildings and deserted streets into a thriving lakefront neighborhood. This will result in millions of dollars in revenue for the region and thousands of construction and full-time permanent jobs.”     

The Cleveland-Cuyahoga County Port Authority helps the regional economy grow and keeps local industries connected to the world by supporting thousands of jobs and providing area businesses a competitive advantage through maritime and development finance partnerships. The port averages 13.1 million tons of cargo per year, while generating more than $570 million in personal incomes through the 11,000 jobs supported by port activities.

###
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: FrqntFlyr on April 24, 2006, 03:14:31 PM
Flats tactics questioned
By JAY MILLER
4:04 pm, April 24, 2006

Property owners on the east bank of the Flats used a Cleveland City Council hearing this afternoon to air their complaints about the tactics developer Scott Wolstein is using to assemble land for his $230 million Flats East Bank development.

More at:
http://www.crainscleveland.com/article/20060424/FREE/60424011 (http://www.crainscleveland.com/article/20060424/FREE/60424011)
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: KJP on April 24, 2006, 09:58:20 PM
The pieces legislation were moved to the full council, which approved them earlier this evening.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: Robclevoh on April 25, 2006, 08:12:17 AM
CHEER!
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: FrqntFlyr on April 25, 2006, 09:02:44 AM
So does the development agreement passed last night include Shaia's property or not?  That's the next question.  I'm kind of surprised that it wasn't in this article, seeing as it was a related, fairly major story that just came out last week.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: mrnyc on April 25, 2006, 09:08:08 AM
tony montana wolstein
"say hello to my lil friends the port authority & city council"
(http://www.u-blog.net/fafskyline/img/scarface.jpg)
"How jou like that, eh?"


*** hopefully wolstein's whole project does not go down like tony montana tho!   :shoot:  ***



Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: KJP on April 25, 2006, 03:36:56 PM
As far as I know, Shaia's property is included in the development agreement. I'll check with someone to verify.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: CH Jake on April 26, 2006, 07:40:14 AM
In talking with one of the property owners, I'd put money on litigation.  This person is ready and willing to sell -- for a fair price.  According to her, however, the small property owners have been getting very lowball offers and a "take it or we'll get it by eminent domain anyway" attitude.  In response to her counteroffer, Wolstein's representative simply raised his offer 10% without any explanation of how that figure was determined. 

If true, that sounds like Wolstein is making "three contacts" as required for emininent domain, but isn't expecting to have to pay anywhere close to what a willing seller would take.   

She's also miffed that she never heard from any representative of Wolstein's until months after the project was unveiled.  If Wolstein won't seriously negotiate, she's ready to take it to court and fight.  She wondered how much delay can Wolstein take.

Take this with a grain of salt.  I cannot confirm whether she has received a fair offer or not, or whether Wolstein is really "negotatiating" in this manner.  We're not hearing much in the press from the smaller property owners in the area, and so I thought everyone here would be interested in hearing another side to the story. 
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: MayDay on April 26, 2006, 08:45:17 AM
My only comment would be - if she was one of the owners who asked for a property devaluation for tax purposes, but now expects a "fair" price, I just don't have much sympathy. It's one or the other - either your property has value and you don't need to have a devaluation, or it doesn't and you'd better take what you can get.

"she's ready to take it to court..."

Unfortunately for her, the Supreme Court's decision will make short work of her attempts at prolonging the process. And she won't have much to persuade anyone via sympathy (i.e. no residents are being displaced). That's the danger of sitting on a parcel and waiting to resell it at a profit.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: CH Jake on April 26, 2006, 11:46:32 AM
- if she was one of the owners who asked for a property devaluation for tax purposes, but now expects a "fair" price, I just don't have much sympathy.

Me either.

"she's ready to take it to court..."

Unfortunately for her, the Supreme Court's decision will make short work of her attempts at prolonging the process. And she won't have much to persuade anyone via sympathy (i.e. no residents are being displaced). That's the danger of sitting on a parcel and waiting to resell it at a profit.

I disagree that the Supreme Court decision would speed up eminent domain proceedings.  We'll just have to wait and see how that plays out, however.

But what if
-she did not request a tax reduction, and
-she has an operating bar in the building.

If the rest of the story is true, then I think she might be being railroaded in the name of "progress."  She ought to get a fair price for the property, and if eminent domain leads to a fair price, then it would seem to me that she shouldn't have any complaints. 
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: 3231 on April 26, 2006, 12:13:47 PM
^there are a lot of what ifs in that surround the story.  Who really knows? I am sure that most landowners would give you an identical story.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: FrqntFlyr on May 01, 2006, 10:46:25 AM
From Crain's today...


Domain debate looms
As Scott Wolstein’s plan for The Flats’ East Bank picks up steam, task force debates nonelected officials’ rights to eminent domain
By JAY MILLER
6:00 am, May 1, 2006

The looming battle over the buildings and land sought for Scott Wolstein’s Flats East Bank redevelopment project is raising questions about whether the use of eminent domain should be limited to governmental bodies that are directly accountable to voters.

More at:
http://www.crainscleveland.com/article/20060501/REG/60428033 (http://www.crainscleveland.com/article/20060501/REG/60428033)
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: superceleb on May 05, 2006, 07:49:21 AM
Wolstein project in Flats under way
Friday, May 05, 2006
Sarah Hollander and Christopher Montgomery
Plain Dealer Reporters

The Cleveland-Cuyahoga County Port Authority has cut its first deal with one of the property owners on the site where developer Scott Wolstein wants to build a controversial $230 million housing and retail project.

Real estate investor Mike Tricarichi, who bought the old Jimmy's bar in 2004, said he has signed a sales agreement with the port, contingent on a hazardous waste inspection.

More at http://www.cleveland.com/printer/printer.ssf?/base/cuyahoga/114681850927890.xml&coll=2&thispage=2 (http://www.cleveland.com/printer/printer.ssf?/base/cuyahoga/114681850927890.xml&coll=2&thispage=2)
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: FrqntFlyr on May 05, 2006, 07:50:31 AM
One down, a few more to go.  Interesting what this Tricarichi has to say about redeveloping the southern portion of the east bank.  He seems to be consolidating a good amount of land there.


Wolstein project in Flats under way
Friday, May 05, 2006
Sarah Hollander and Christopher Montgomery
Plain Dealer Reporters

EDIT:  Article removed, no link and article no longer on cleveland.com
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: KJP on May 05, 2006, 10:50:14 AM
"I've made really nice returns in these other markets," he said. "But the Sunbelt areas are really starting to flatten out. Cleveland wasn't a good place to invest a couple of years ago, but I think now there's potential for upside here."

Nice to hear it from him. I agree with the guy.

"I might be ahead of the curve, or I might be under the bus," he said.

Or under the lake wearing cement shoes....
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: Map Boy on May 05, 2006, 11:17:47 AM
Finally, some progress!
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: KJP on May 05, 2006, 02:38:13 PM
Seems pretty clear that Tricarichi didn't tell the Port Authority to blow him :behind:...
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: superceleb on May 23, 2006, 03:25:18 PM
From 5/23/06

Eminent domain lawsuits filed in Flats project

3:39 p.m.

By Sarah Hollander
Plain Dealer Reporter

Eminent domain is no longer just a threat when it comes to clearing the way for developer Scott Wolstein's proposal to overhaul the east bank of the Flats from the ground up. The Cleveland-Cuyahoga County Port Authority, working on behalf of Wolstein's team, filed two eminent domain lawsuits against property owners Tuesday.

More at cleveland.com http://www.cleveland.com (http://www.cleveland.com)
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: superceleb on May 24, 2006, 09:06:23 AM
Here's a link to the image: http://www.cleveland.com/business/wide/index.ssf?/business/wide/flats0524.html (http://www.cleveland.com/business/wide/index.ssf?/business/wide/flats0524.html)

Port seeks Flats lots by eminent domain
Wednesday, May 24, 2006
Sarah Hollander and Christopher Montgomery
Plain Dealer Reporters

Eminent domain is no longer just a threat when it comes to clearing the way for developer Scott Wolstein's proposal to overhaul the east bank of the Flats from the ground up.

The Cleveland-Cuyahoga County Port Authority, working on behalf of Wolstein's team, filed two eminent domain lawsuits against property owners Tuesday.

More at http://www.cleveland.com/printer/printer.ssf?/base/cuyahoga/1148459484279560.xml&coll=2&thispage=2 (http://www.cleveland.com/printer/printer.ssf?/base/cuyahoga/1148459484279560.xml&coll=2&thispage=2)
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: mrnyc on May 26, 2006, 07:31:33 PM
hey people look at this.  :-o

i saw this on bfd. this blogger does some reporting and really rips wolstein a new one. checker out:

http://realneo.us/community-issue-i-90-bridge-and-innerbelt-trench/wolstein-development/is-wolstein-a-good-developer-or-just-a-reit-lets-look-arou
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: KJP on May 27, 2006, 07:53:49 AM
Maybe Tony George can tell the judge or jury to "blow him" as he allegedly told the PA in a negotiations session recently. Isabella Basile is the relative of late mobster Carmen Basile, I'm told by someone who once worked for Tony George.
______________

http://www.cleveland.com/news/plaindealer/index.ssf?/base/cuyahoga/114871867012310.xml&coll=2 (http://www.cleveland.com/news/plaindealer/index.ssf?/base/cuyahoga/114871867012310.xml&coll=2)

Port files 2 more eminent domain suits
Saturday, May 27, 2006
Sarah Hollander
Plain Dealer Reporter

Two more eminent domain cases were filed against Flats property owners Friday, bringing the week's total to four.

The Cleveland-Cuyahoga County Port Authority filed suit in Cuyahoga Common Pleas Court against Tony George, who owns an Old River Road building with relatives, and Isabella Basile, who owns the Beach Club building across the street.

The port is working on behalf of developer Scott Wolstein, who wants to build a residential and retail project on the east bank of the Flats with government support.

........
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: musky on June 07, 2006, 07:48:24 AM
Now things are gonna get really interesting


Quote
3 more sued over land for Flats project
Wednesday, June 07, 2006
Christopher Montgomery and Sarah Hollander
Plain Dealer Reporters

The Cleveland-Cuyahoga County Port Authority rounded out its roster of eminent domain cases in the Flats on Tuesday, filing against three more property owners who are resisting plans for a residential and retail development there.

The port filed suit in Cuyahoga County Probate Court against the Shaia family, owners of a parking lot on Front Avenue; James Kassouf, owner of parking lots on Old River Road; and a partnership between Kassouf and the Khouri family that owns the former Fagan's and Babylon restaurants, Rumrunners night club and a parking lot. The owners have been dissatisfied with the offers made to them by the port, which is representing developer Scott Wolstein. Wolstein needs their property to build a $230 million mix of 330 housing units and retail space.

More at cleveland.com http://www.cleveland.com (http://www.cleveland.com)
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: w28th on June 07, 2006, 08:22:51 AM
If Wolstein decides to take the Shaia's land and keep it as a surface parking lot instead of allowing him to build 300 living units, a space that could be the linchpin between the Warehouse District and the new Flats development, I'm just going to lose it.
Negotions are still possible though it appears.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: FrqntFlyr on June 08, 2006, 01:46:28 PM
Here is a excerpt from an article I saw on MSN Money that discusses basic principles of money and finance.  I think it is an interesting parallel to the issue of the value of the different Flats parcels today, i.e. current landowners complaining that they paid $1.2 mil a few years ago and are being offered $500k now, etc.  Of course, the Flats situation is a lot more complex, but I still think at a basic level, this principle rings true.

___________________________________________________________________________
Throw no good money after bad
"Sunk costs" are expenses that have already been incurred and can't be recovered to any appreciable extent. "Sunk cost fallacy" means an irrational belief that a further investment of time, money or effort will somehow resurrect the value that's already disappeared.

A classic example is the investor whose stock has plunged because the prospects of the company have worsened. The investor wouldn't buy the same stock today, yet continues to hang on to the shares rather than sell them and take the loss. The investor may offer the excuse that he or she wants to at least "break even" before selling, but of course the stock market doesn't care about the investor getting the money back, and all the wishing in the world won't bring the stock price back up.

By hanging on to the shares, the investor is giving up the opportunity to invest elsewhere at a profit -- an opportunity cost.
_____________________________________________________________________________

http://articles.moneycentral.msn.com/SavingandDebt/LearnToBudget/9MoneyRulestoLiveBy.aspx?page=2
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: surfohio on June 12, 2006, 08:40:03 AM
To get away from the ugly politics for a second.....what should the Flats look like? Everyone should be at least a little concerned with the preliminary "suburban office park" look to Wolsteins plan. The Flats are indeed a unique, unpolished jewell and any new development should correspond with their great history in mind.

Anyone been to Baltimore recently? Fells Point, a historic waterfront neighborhood, should serve as a terrific model of how to rebuild each bank of the Flats. Like the Flats, Fells Point has a distinct, maritime heritage and caters to both visitors and locals alike.

Check it out the photogallery for yourself    www.fellspoint.us

Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: StrapHanger on June 12, 2006, 09:57:14 AM
I'm not thrilled by the Wolstein design either.  But I wouldn't want to see any kind of saccharine recreation of what's been lost either.  I just want to see what's left preserved and sensitively reused and thoughtful infill to replace the parking lots along the existing street grid.  That said, given how little is left standing in the Wolstein zone, I'm not gonna squawk too much.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: mrnyc on June 12, 2006, 10:58:55 AM
as i have said before, i would like to see the original rockefeller warehouse and the old kindlers bar remain and be reused somehow. they are locally significant buildings in my mind, if not architecturally or historically. maybe wolstein can incorporate and work around them. but like straphangar, i am not going to squawk too hard about it either. still, it's a built in opportunity to keep it quirky and visually interesting around there and not so suburban bland and lifestyle mallish. you dont want a generic cols arena district type development plopped in that site (which is what it looks like so far in the couple renderings we have seen). we have to be patient and wait out emminent domain to see what the final design is going to be i guess.



Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: X on June 12, 2006, 12:11:50 PM
I would like to see Wolstein keep the existing street layout and a few of the historic building if possible.  I would like it if he built his building right up to the riverfront, because I think that is a part of the unique character of the Flats.  I'd like to see the same done where the Nautica complex and parking are now located.  He could still add boardwalks for public access, and roof decks for al fresco dining. 

I don't think that it's necessary to be as architecturally conservative as the buildings in the renderings that we've seen.  Brick is nice, but the Flats has an industrial heritage.  Steel, concrete (in moderation), glass, and other more modern appearing materials could look nice and could play off of the bridges and infrastructure that are so much a part of the character of the place.

I would keep buildings from being too large horizontally.  I know he needs density, so he needs to build up, but I think that the buildings in the rendering are too long, most are a short block by themselves.  It would be better if the buildings were narrow and tall.  If need be, they could still be connected by interior passageways, or they could be larger buildings, but with multiple facades.  See the way they are doing it at the Avenue District.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: Vulpster03 on June 12, 2006, 12:53:27 PM
You know, about half of the East Bank along Old River Road will not be touched by the Wolstein development. No one seems to tak about this, but there is an attractive strip south of the Main Ave. Bridge on Old River Road that will remain. In my opinion the strip that Wolstein is tearing down has absolutely no aestetic value to the neighborhood.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: X on June 12, 2006, 01:32:18 PM
Most of what he is tearing down isn't all that great.  But a couple of buildings such as the old Kindler's and the old John Harvard Brewhouse and Heaven are nice and would be nice to keep.  Also, I think that the non rectilinear streets are a part of the Flat's charm.  Those will be lost with the current East Bank plan.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: blinker12 on June 12, 2006, 03:23:14 PM
I agree, X. I've never liked the clear-cut approach Wolstein is taking. It makes no concession to history, and therefore I worry about it feeling fake. This is a very Cleveland approach to redevelopment (raze and start again). Still, I guess I'd rather see the project go forward than not.

The West Bank proposal, where new buildings will be constructed alongside old ones on surface parking lots, is much more to my liking.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: peabody99 on June 12, 2006, 04:02:12 PM
all this makes me excited to be on the WEST bank, where there may end up being some diversity in the architecture (ie love the Tenk building, lets hope that it is a keeper) . Unfortunately if the east bank turns out ugly, that is my view from the west.  Does anyone really know what this is going to look like? I will die if it ends up like one of crappy water front developments you see in FL. ie pseudo Greek Spanish vomitus revival.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: MyTwoSense on June 12, 2006, 04:21:14 PM
all this makes me excited to be on the WEST bank, where there may end up being some diversity in the architecture (ie love the Tenk building, lets hope that it is a keeper) . Unfortunately if the east bank turns out ugly, that is my view from the west.  Does anyone really know what this is going to look like? I will die if it ends up like one of crappy water front developments you see in FL. ie pseudo Greek Spanish vomitus revival.

This is onr of the factors that kept me from buying at SB phase 5.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: w28th on June 13, 2006, 12:54:23 PM
The fact that Wolsteins development seems to "integrate" with the river at a diagnol angle shows that him or his architect have no idea what the Flats are.  Engage the river, utilize many different materials, make the construction match the kinetic energy that the river currently has:  bridges raising and swinging, boats rotating and blowing horns, trains (mass transit and freight), automobiles speeding overhead, factories churning on the banks.
It just seems so damn obvious to relate to such an exciting character, but it appears they will play down to the lowest common denominator once again, "everything else is brick, we should use only brick).
Wolstein is used to doing this kind of low quality design, he's been destroying the Cleveland for the past 40 years, and now he's missing out on an opportunity to help fix a part of it.
I hate developers.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: zaceman on June 13, 2006, 01:25:46 PM
given the fact that other developments have come about after his original proposal that have higher design standards i would think he would rework much of this when its ready to be built
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: 3231 on June 13, 2006, 01:31:57 PM
geez, aren't we being a little harsh based upon the fact that the designs that we have seen are only massings?  Additionally, since when has brick become the architectural anti-christ? 
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: X on June 13, 2006, 03:24:05 PM
I would consider the renderings shown to be further along than just massings.  They are showing materials, landscaping, and some level of detail, as well.

Also I like brick and would like to see plenty of it incorporated into the design.  I just think that the project could be opened up, material-wise.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: StrapHanger on June 13, 2006, 03:27:28 PM
Plus, I think it is those very massings that most of us are complaining about.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: blinker12 on June 13, 2006, 03:41:07 PM
Yeah, bring on the brick. It's the demolition and site plan I'm not wild about. The site plan is so... Floridian.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: StrapHanger on June 14, 2006, 10:49:40 AM
I'm still having trouble with the demolition too.  There is astonishingly little left of the old flats.

Anyone else think it's funny that renderings and site plans always show the river in blue?  That river is cool but a pretty color it ain't.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: Vulpster03 on June 14, 2006, 12:55:56 PM
The site plan is so... Floridian.

Supposedly the site plan is Florentine inspired- according to Wolstein who made the comment after he vacationed in Florence. We'll see though.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: X on June 14, 2006, 02:20:37 PM
Supposedly the site plan is Florentine inspired- according to Wolstein who made the comment after he vacationed in Florence. We'll see though.

Ah, yes.  Firenze.  Now I recognize it. :roll:
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: w28th on June 14, 2006, 08:34:09 PM
Maybe I am being a bit harsh considering it's only massing studies thus far, but I just think we can't be happy with it just being built.  That's the old Cleveland attitude I think we are trying to get away from.  I've worked for an architecture firm that does a lot of developer work and I see that once an idea from an arch. is shown, it's hard for developers to get that one idea out of their head.
And come on, first Pescht, now Florence?  What's next, a Venitian canal system?  Firenze takes about as much advantage of their river as we do the Lake, although the Arno also makes the Cuyahoga smell acceptable at times. 
I can accept Stark using Pesht as a conceptual base for the city, but simply plopping a medevial Florentine grid system onto the east bank doesn't make much sense.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: KJP on June 14, 2006, 09:05:04 PM
And come on, first Pescht, now Florence?  What's next, a Venitian canal system?

Nice. I hear Forest City Enterprises is considering a spiderweb of canals amid residential on Scranton Peninsula. Whoops -- my mistake. FCE doesn't believe there's a market for residential in Cleveland's core. They must be so much smarter than Asher, Corna, Maron, Marous, Priemer, Price, Stark, Wolstein, Zaremba and others from A to Z who are building residential in the core.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: blinker12 on June 16, 2006, 08:38:04 AM
Community News Briefs
Friday, June 16, 2006
CLEVELAND

Eminent domain hearing

A request to halt attempts to acquire property on the east bank of the Flats through eminent domain is scheduled for a hearing in Cuyahoga Common Pleas Court on June 28. Cleveland resident Cynthia Roether filed the suit as an interested taxpayer. She is represented by Thomas Scanlon, a lawyer for an affected property owner.

More at cleveland.com http://www.cleveland.com (http://www.cleveland.com)
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: MayDay on June 16, 2006, 01:22:13 PM
I went to check out the condos in the Water Street building, and lo and behold was a big-arse rendering for Flats East Bank:

(http://www.clevelandskyscrapers.com/cleveland/flatseastbank0606.jpg)
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: 3231 on June 16, 2006, 01:26:55 PM
great find!
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: StrapHanger on June 16, 2006, 01:30:37 PM
Cool!  There's that blue water again.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: MyTwoSense on June 16, 2006, 01:32:00 PM
nice find ..

This is off topic, but what was your opinion of the water street condos and did you take any pictures?  You've spoiled us with your great photos!
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: gotribe on June 16, 2006, 01:57:40 PM
Community News Briefs
Friday, June 16, 2006
CLEVELAND

Eminent domain hearing

A request to halt attempts to acquire property on the east bank of the Flats through eminent domain is scheduled for a hearing in Cuyahoga Common Pleas Court on June 28. Cleveland resident Cynthia Roether filed the suit as an interested taxpayer. She is represented by Thomas Scanlon, a lawyer for an affected property owner. Judge Peter Corrigan denied a request for a temporary restraining order last week. The suit alleges that the Cleveland-Cuyahoga County Port Authority abused its powers by filing eminent domain suits to make way for developer Scott Wolstein, who wants to build a retail and housing complex in the Flats.
How far do you think this will make it?
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: StrapHanger on June 16, 2006, 02:21:07 PM
Not far.  It's unclear if the plaintiff even has standing to sue.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: KJP on June 16, 2006, 09:37:54 PM
In the rendering, the 14-story or so building in the background almost looks like one of the condo buildings proposed by Kassouf... I wasn't aware that Wolstein was proposing any buildings that tall. Hmmm.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: zaceman on June 17, 2006, 07:41:26 AM
^ i was thinking that was the office building he proposed?
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: KJP on June 17, 2006, 07:45:34 AM
The angle isn't right for the office building. The taller building shown above looks to be east or possibly southeast of the transient dock along the river. The office building is north or northwest of the FEB development area. Plus the building shown above has balconies and looks residential.

EDIT: I just checked another rendering, and you can see the taller building in it (which is actually northeast of the transient dock). I didn't realize that building was going to be that big (sure would be nicely complemented by Shaia's Lighthouse Landing!)

(http://www.gcbl.org/system/files?file=flats-east-aerial-sm.jpg)
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: peabody99 on June 17, 2006, 08:54:00 AM
I have very poor spacial skills (please don't kick me off the forum!), but the renderings posted by KJP and Mayday  look very different.  Are these covering the same partial of land?  I like the Mayday ones in that there is a lot of space facing the river (condos , cafes and promenade) as opposed to the angled buildings in KJP picture. Or maybe it is just the blue water and the schooner!Still, even in the Mayday pic, I still cannot imagine yet what the finished product would look like.  I guess it depends on the materials. I also like that at least first appearances do not suggest the neo greco tuscan vularis architecture inspired by Florence  feared a few posts back. While 16th century buildings look good in Florence, it would look foolish in a modern midwestern city, no? It would look like a tacky retirement community in Florida.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: MyTwoSense on June 17, 2006, 09:31:43 AM
While 16th century buildings look good in Florence, it would look foolish in a modern midwestern city, no? It would look like a tacky retirement community in Florida.

Peabody...get out of my head!  I was thinking the same thing! LOL
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: Map Boy on June 17, 2006, 12:12:05 PM
KJP: "sure would be nicely complemented by Shaia's Lighthouse Landing!"

My thoughts exactly!
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: KJP on June 17, 2006, 01:27:29 PM
I'll bet the rendering MayDay posted is probably more recent, since it is the one being used right now as part of their sales pitch. The rendering I posted was from a year ago, when the project was officially announced.

As to it complementing Lighthouse Landing, I say that because it's seems a natural progression or stepping up of building heights from the river. You've got what looks to be 4-5 story buildings, then a 14-story building, followed by LL's 18-story first phase and then their 22-story second phase. And, the way the buildings might be situated, the views from each don't appear to be blocked by the others.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: Map Boy on June 17, 2006, 02:00:59 PM
and why would you want to wall off your development down the hill from Downtown's most vibrant district with 2+ blocks of surface parking?  sounds like a mood killer to me!
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: urbanlife on June 17, 2006, 02:02:46 PM
I think the angles are the same, it is just that the view in the "newer" rendering is from in front of the marina (think south end of shooters) and at street level and not from the air. 

why don't they post some of these renderings either along the river or on some of the properties Wolstein does own?  I was at shooters last night and the view of the east bank is terrible, but there is no signage of what is to come.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: Map Boy on June 17, 2006, 02:15:24 PM
From yesterday on the Goodtime III:

Actually being used and hopping on a Friday night:
(http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y44/cbongorno/Flats%20East%20Bank/FEB5.jpg)

Not so much:
(http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y44/cbongorno/Flats%20East%20Bank/FEB4.jpg)

Dick's has seen better days:
(http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y44/cbongorno/Flats%20East%20Bank/FEBDicks2.jpg)

(http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y44/cbongorno/Flats%20East%20Bank/FEBDicks1.jpg)

Blight!
(http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y44/cbongorno/Flats%20East%20Bank/FEB3.jpg)

Hey, this one's available!  Know any buyers?
(http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y44/cbongorno/Flats%20East%20Bank/FEB2.jpg)

Fado is still looking nice...business is a bit slow, though  :wink:
(http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y44/cbongorno/Flats%20East%20Bank/FEBFado.jpg)

What?
(http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y44/cbongorno/Flats%20East%20Bank/FEB1.jpg)

The row that time forgot...
(http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y44/cbongorno/Flats%20East%20Bank/FEBRow.jpg)

It was once a very lively place that could've lasted if managed correctly... now what?  A complete demo and rebuild?  Or is this stuff worth saving?
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: jamiec on June 17, 2006, 02:41:06 PM
Yeck, knock it all down! Those things are hideous. Even if they were still active, they'd look horrible.

Does that whole area have to be "adult" oriented? If they are going for the cheesy Atlantic City look, why don't they have gaming arcades on the boardwalk with pizza/hotdog/hamburger places and a ferris wheel and other family-friendly/carnival-like things? Make it like an ocean boardwalk where everybody mixes -- families, teens with guitars, dancers, adults going to bars - don't program it. If you make it so people want to come, that'll all take care of itself. Put the cops all over the place just to make everyone feel safe. It seems to me if it's just a big strip of bars with nothing else to do, it's going to keep imploding. I'd be more interested in going there just to walk around on a Friday or Saturday night if there were all sorts of people. I have no interest in going into a pit of seedy bars -- and I'm 24 years old. No thanks Las Vegas... How about Cleveland's Coney Island instead? That's more my speed, at least.

Would it be possible to use that area as a staging area for a big sailboat race? I used to live in Michigan, and there they had the Port Huron to Mackinac Island sailboat race where thousands and thousands of people came to this small town during one weekend to see the race start and to see several hundred boats along a similar river setup. It was a huge attraction. I know Chicago does a race to Mackinac, too. It attracts boat people from all over the Great Lakes. Just some thoughts.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: mrnyc on June 17, 2006, 05:00:43 PM
^ditto. knock it all down along there.

but.....do better than that rendering kjp posted. that stuff is way way too generic. that exact style of apt building is going up in every city in america. i'm sick of seeing them already. this is a golden moment that demands greater architectural variety and creativity. don't just plop any old off the shelf arena district or lifestyle mallish structures like that into the flats. ugh.

Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: zaceman on June 17, 2006, 11:40:14 PM
is it me or is this rendering on the forum architects page a bit interesting as far as where shaia's property has stuff on it...?

(http://www.forumarc.com/portfolio/flatseastbank/feb1.jpg)
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: KJP on June 18, 2006, 06:37:53 AM
No, it's not just you. See my comments and those that followed several posts back in this thread.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: musky on June 18, 2006, 05:58:35 PM
MGD,

In the second Dick's picture, there is a bilboard on the boardwalk with the dubious "W" on it and "URS."
Do you have a close up of that? I am wondering what it says.


Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: Map Boy on June 18, 2006, 08:46:36 PM
Sorry, Musky, I zoomed in and can't make anything out.  What do you mean "dubious 'W'?"

I'm curious about those two aerial renderings as well...is one more recent?  Also, did you guys notice that the taller buildings in the first rendering are much smaller in the second?
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: KJP on June 18, 2006, 08:48:52 PM
The W appears to be Woolpert Consultants logo. Which would make sense since URS consultants is also listed, as it what appears to be Cleveland's city logo.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: musky on June 19, 2006, 08:38:13 AM
Quote
What do you mean "dubious 'W'?"

I get scared when I see the letter "W" all by itself.
Can't tell you why... they're watching. :-o
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: MayDay on June 19, 2006, 08:45:47 AM
Folks, that's the Wolstein Group's logo - I have a photo of that sign somewhere (just not readily accessible at the moment).
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: surfohio on June 19, 2006, 09:07:02 AM
Yeck, knock it all down! Those things are hideous. Even if they were still active, they'd look horrible.

Does that whole area have to be "adult" oriented? If they are going for the cheesy Atlantic City look, why don't they have gaming arcades on the boardwalk with pizza/hotdog/hamburger places and a ferris wheel and other family-friendly/carnival-like things? Make it like an ocean boardwalk where everybody mixes -- families, teens with guitars, dancers, adults going to bars - don't program it. If you make it so people want to come, that'll all take care of itself. Put the cops all over the place just to make everyone feel safe. It seems to me if it's just a big strip of bars with nothing else to do, it's going to keep imploding. I'd be more interested in going there just to walk around on a Friday or Saturday night if there were all sorts of people. I have no interest in going into a pit of seedy bars -- and I'm 24 years old. No thanks Las Vegas... How about Cleveland's Coney Island instead? That's more my speed, at least.

Would it be possible to use that area as a staging area for a big sailboat race? I used to live in Michigan, and there they had the Port Huron to Mackinac Island sailboat race where thousands and thousands of people came to this small town during one weekend to see the race start and to see several hundred boats along a similar river setup. It was a huge attraction. I know Chicago does a race to Mackinac, too. It attracts boat people from all over the Great Lakes. Just some thoughts.

Great ideas. Marinas, races, boardwalks, rides, arcades, bars and restaurants = a thriving waterfront.

And I can't stop myself from commenting how suburban and corporate (these are not compliments) Wolsteins initial renderings look.  The Flats deserve better than "Crocker Park by the Sea."
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: KJP on June 19, 2006, 09:54:20 AM
Folks, that's the Wolstein Group's logo - I have a photo of that sign somewhere (just not readily accessible at the moment).

Now that makes even more sense!
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: MyTwoSense on June 19, 2006, 11:03:07 AM
Folks, that's the Wolstein Group's logo - I have a photo of that sign somewhere (just not readily accessible at the moment).

Now that makes even more sense!

too bad that "W" doesn't stand for the "W" hotel.  Hotels are something that I think that are missing from our "signature" neighborhoods.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: KJP on June 19, 2006, 11:38:39 AM
^ Like those neighborhood-scale hotels you see in European cities? I like the idea, but they'd have to be very carefully watched by police and the building department to make sure they don't turn into "love shacks" where johns take hookers and pay for rooms by the hour. And I don't think Cleveland police or the building department has the manpower to keep after those things. I'm pretty leery of these, unless some reputable hotel chain starts up a subsidiary to run small, urban neighborhood-based hotels like those in Europe.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: MyTwoSense on June 19, 2006, 12:51:29 PM
^ Like those neighborhood-scale hotels you see in European cities? I like the idea, but they'd have to be very carefully watched by police and the building department to make sure they don't turn into "love shacks" where johns take hookers and pay for rooms by the hour. And I don't think Cleveland police or the building department has the manpower to keep after those things. I'm pretty leery of these, unless some reputable hotel chain starts up a subsidiary to run small, urban neighborhood-based hotels like those in Europe.

No the W Hotel is a starwood brand (www.whotel.com or www.starwood.com)  I would like to see hotel on the west bank a hotel on the East bank, a hotel in Ohio City.  We need to start boosting our on regional economy.  Ohio City and Tremont is "hot" now, Although those areas are in close proximity to DT, if i'm on a leisure trip or a weekend getaway, why not be able to stay in Ohio City proper?  A hilton a sheraton could fit in nicely with the nabe.  Shaker Square, Univ. Circle, Edgewater, CSU are also underserved in that regard
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: gotribe on June 19, 2006, 03:53:22 PM
^ I would like to see those there too, but there really isn't a demand for them. 
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: gotribe on June 19, 2006, 03:54:20 PM
Cleveland is in the process of create demand, give it time, and those things will happen.  Just like the early *0's when demand was created along E 9th. 
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: gotribe on June 19, 2006, 03:54:41 PM
^I meant 80's
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: JDD941 on June 19, 2006, 04:49:55 PM
I was hoping the W was for another "WHOOTERS"...oh wait, that would be Hooters......
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: blinker12 on June 22, 2006, 03:14:57 PM
Developers seek fiscal assistance
Thursday, June 22, 2006
By Ken Baka
Staff Writer

Would-be developers of the East Side Flats project want financial backing from Cuyahoga County that rarely occurs.

Only once has a for-profit company received what the Wolstein Group, Beachwood and Fairmount Properties LLC, Cleveland, want from the county: a guarantee on bonds.

More at cleveland.com http://www.cleveland.com/sun (http://www.cleveland.com/sun)
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: zaceman on June 22, 2006, 10:17:43 PM
ok im confused, they want more money or is this part of the deal already??  and where are these parking garages...??  right near one, possibly two, light rail stations...??  i wish the other big projects would start up so the city can be like "umm these guys dont need a s***load of government money, you shouldnt either."  they're really trying to exploit the situation here i think
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: KJP on June 22, 2006, 11:25:11 PM
One of the reasons why K&D has been successful with Stonebridge (while not asking for subsidy handouts) is that part of their marketing strategy is to show to tenants/buyers how much money they can save by living in the city and not having to own cars (or as many cars).

How can Wolstein make the same case marketing-wise when his parking-intensive site plan seems to want to encourage people to continue owning cars -- and the more the merrier? I understand the whole "lenders want to see X-number of parking spaces per square foot" argument. But I suspect lenders will also be sympathetic to a marketing strategy in which potential tenants/buyers are informed about the money they can allocate to housing instead of transportation (ie: having to own cars). That's a financing and marketing strategy made all the more saleable with a rail transit line routed through the site.

Most people think the costs of living in Greater Cleveland are low, but not when you own a car. In fact, when you look at the sum of the two largest costs of living -- housing and transportation -- Cleveland comes out poorly compared to other areas of similar and even larger size. See Page 6-7 at:  http://www.transact.org/library/reports_pdfs/driven_to_spend/Driven_to_Spend_Report.pdf (SEE PAGE 6).

Not having to own a car, or fewer cars per household, provides more money to invest in your household (not a money-sucking depreciable asset like a car!). Heck, if Wolstein wanted to do something really creative, he could have featured a car-sharing business as part of his marketing mix. Perhaps he could have even subsidized that for much less money than what he's wanting for these expensive, land-gobbling parking decks.

At least those decks will make great places to grow hydroponic crops when gas prices hit $10 a gallon!
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: blinker12 on June 23, 2006, 06:40:42 AM
Agreed on the parking. Wolstein's operating just like he would if this were in Westlake. Does he even know there's a rapid line running through his property?

Also, the fact that Fairmount is involved in this makes me nervous (maybe I just didn't notice their name in past coverage). They helped drive Shaker Square into the ground a few years ago.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: zaceman on June 23, 2006, 07:24:06 AM
i wonder if his people read this website heh
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: peabody99 on June 23, 2006, 09:31:43 AM
I think KJP and others make an excellent point about the car thing. I would love to see these places have a few city wheel cars parked in the building. last night I met the guy that owns tower press and the Erie lofts (these things are sweet-go check them out). He is trying to get a city wheel car at tower press. Maybe the first year these developers can subsidize a city wheels or other car share, to give it a chance to catch on. that said, most people are still obsessed with parking and their cars. It is a huge selling point for even places in the city. If a prospective buyer looking at Stonebridge approaches me, they always ask about parking. It would be be challenging for most people to go car free in Cleveland, esp if your job requires a car (as mine does).  but it is very possible to get a couple to go from two cars to one (just did it...still working out the snags-I am a lightning phobic, don't like being on bike or walking when the stuff is around).
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: Punch on June 23, 2006, 10:51:55 AM
I am getting less and less exited about this project
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: w28th on June 23, 2006, 11:30:11 AM
Other than the fact that it is a large development in Cleveland, there nothing to really get excited about: 

*The design looks like it could be in any city in the US
*it doesn't engage the river all that much
*there is no cohesion between it and the Warehouse District
*Wolstein wants to keep surface parking on Shaia's land instead of 200+ living units
*makes no attempt to build off of public transit
*the whole eminent domain mess
*tearing down everything in the area
*more public funding now necessary
*may detract from the momentum at E4th/Warehouse and spread the nodes of teh city out even more.

The whole thing looks to be going to hell, and it's all Wolstein's fault.  I say it's less than 50-50 that it even happens.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: Map Boy on June 28, 2006, 12:19:56 PM
seriously...what's the count on proposed parking spaces for this project now?  Wolstein et al need to seriously re-think what they're doing down here.  This is not a mall in Beachwood where ALL of your customers will be driving in and looking for parking.  This is a Downtown neighborhood that should be able to pull workers, residents and outsiders to the site.  Driving should be an option, yes, but there will be more opportunities to ride, walk, and bike to this site than most other destinations in Northeast Ohio.  And let's consider that if the developers are demanding guarantees from the County to pay the bills if the revenues don't add up, then it's obvious that they're not so confident in the ability of these garages to pay for themselves! 

Let's not create another Gateway garage situation here.  Taxpayers should not be saddled with the cost of these unnecessary garages and the developers need to look elsewhere to figure out how these numbers can be crunched.  Does anyone remember a potential partner offering to build the garages...and add more residential units...just up the hill???
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: freethink on June 30, 2006, 10:55:30 AM
From newsnet5 -

Deals Made To Take Over Two Bars In Flats

POSTED: 8:40 am EDT June 30, 2006
UPDATED: 9:10 am EDT June 30, 2006

CLEVELAND -- The Port Authority has reached an agreement with the owner of The Beach Club and Boom Cabaret on the East Bank of the Flats.

The terms of the deal aren't being released.

Recently, developer Scott Wolstein proposed to completely overhaul the east bank.

Legal proceedings with six remaining landowners are still going on in Cuyahoga County Common Pleas Court.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: Map Boy on June 30, 2006, 11:09:03 AM
Nice!  I've been accused of being too negative about this project lately.  Maybe I just needed some news of progress!  Well, that, and maybe some indications that the development isn't going to be an island unto itself.  Anyway, great news on the agreement!
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: freethink on June 30, 2006, 11:35:51 AM
^ What is this "negative" you speak of ?

Signed,
Everyone in Cleveland
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: Punch on June 30, 2006, 11:49:08 AM
Boom cabaret?
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: KJP on June 30, 2006, 04:10:44 PM
I spoke with several developers today for an unrelated article I'm working on who said they have been friends with Scott Wolstein for years. Yet they think he's off base with the Flats East Bank project and its eminent domain, parking needs and subsidies. One even said he thinks the project will fail. Interestingly, in the port authority's press release today about it reaching a deal with another Flats property owner, I noticed something I hadn't seen before in one of their press releases. It referred to the possibility of the project failing if agreements aren't reached soon because costs would rise with delays. That's either a threat or a statement of "we're preparing you for the possibility."
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: blinker12 on June 30, 2006, 04:31:09 PM
^This has never been my favorite megaproject in the city, for all those reasons. It's like Wolstein doesn't believe in it himself on some level. When development projects require this much maneuvering and public assistance, I think it's reasonable to ask if they're truly advisable in the first place.

Plans for Pesht and the West Bank make much more sense to me, because they 1) treat their existing urban surroundings with greater deference; and 2) don't have their begging cups out. At least not yet.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: Htsguy on July 01, 2006, 09:37:28 AM
So far "Pesht" is completely conceptual and basically consists of some interesting newspaper articles.  "West Bank" has not even reached that point.  Newspaper articles promised in September.  What makes you think that these proposed developments will not require eminent domain and subsidies and will not feature bad site planning and uninspiring architecture (I mean look at Eton Collection and Crocker Park (especially Crocker Park, a nightmare of parking garages).  I cetainly hope both projects get off the ground and are done well, but it is hard to get excited, like many on this board, with two projects which really have not been "revealed".  It is also hard to pan these projects at this point.  I am sure everyone here will do a good job of that once more information is offered.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: blinker12 on July 01, 2006, 09:48:49 AM
Flats property owner agrees to sell for development
Saturday, July 01, 2006
Michael Sangiacomo
Plain Dealer Reporter

The Cleveland-Cuyahoga County Port Authority reached an agreement to purchase a parcel of land on the Flats east bank as part of the redevelopment of the area.

The port authority declined to reveal how much Isabella Basile would be paid for her riverfront property at 1064 and 1078 Old River Road, where she operated the Boom Club and the Boom Cabaret. The port had offered $1.1 million for the property in the past. Basile could not be reached for comment.

More at cleveland.com http://www.cleveland.com (http://www.cleveland.com)
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: KJP on July 01, 2006, 04:44:41 PM
Htsguy, a big reason (if not the biggest reason) why people seem less critical of the Pesht and Flats West Bank projects is because there are no detailed site plans as yet to be critiqued. Like you say, it's easy to support a broad-brush idea.

But I also think that some are opposed to the demolitions of some historic structures Wolstein will need to do. And, at least for me, I find it very puzzling why Wolstein needs Shaia's parking lot so he can keep it a parking lot. It's especially curious when Shaia's offer appeared very accommodating to Wolstein's plans -- including offering his land as a construction staging area and to provide enough public parking for FEB. And asking a cash-starved Cuyahoga County to underwrite the bonds for even more parking, I would hope the public stops to ask why.

People often don't agree on a project's design and other subjective features of a development. But when a developer seeks things that contradict common sense, then questions and even criticism will naturally follow.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: jamiec on July 01, 2006, 05:18:29 PM
So far "Pesht" is completely conceptual and basically consists of some interesting newspaper articles.  "West Bank" has not even reached that point.  Newspaper articles promised in September.  What makes you think that these proposed developments will not require eminent domain and subsidies and will not feature bad site planning and uninspiring architecture (I mean look at Eton Collection and Crocker Park (especially Crocker Park, a nightmare of parking garages).  I cetainly hope both projects get off the ground and are done well, but it is hard to get excited, like many on this board, with two projects which really have not been "revealed".  It is also hard to pan these projects at this point.  I am sure everyone here will do a good job of that once more information is offered.

I actually like Eton Collection. I went to Crocker Park today. I don't like that it was built in the middle of nowhere. As I was there, I tried to imagine it in downtown Cleveland. I think if Pescht is going to mesh with the WD, Stark and his people are going to need to be ballsy about their designs but also accommodating to the historical buildings around. New buildings CAN be merged with the old, and the best example I have ever seen is in Lexington, Michigan. http://www.smackwaterdevelopment.com/ There a developer purchased a city block in the small town's miniscule downtown and basically created a new downtown. And it actually works, complementing the existing downtown and it really helped create a community.

The same can be done in Cleveland as long as we don't go too cookie cutter, although I think it will have that characteristic to some degree just because it will be new. Either way, Crocker Park's parking decks don't bother me. It's a much better idea than surrounding the thing in blacktop lots. What I think would be nice is if in Pescht, parking was also free like in Westlake. But I suppose this won't likely happen.

edit: Also, I'm skeptical of Wolstein because he wants to put a soccer stadium in Summit County right on the edge of my (and many others') treasured Cuyahoga Valley National Park. That area of NEO doesn't need more development, and it makes me distrust his motives. He just has $$ in his eyes.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: mrnyc on July 01, 2006, 06:45:32 PM
jamiec i am cool on eton and crocker, but the lexington, mich development looks very nice.  i have not seen it in person yet, but isn't that similar to what they did right in ne ohio with the first and main development downtown in hudson?

http://www.firstandmainhudson.com/
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: KJP on July 01, 2006, 06:47:02 PM
New buildings CAN be merged with the old, and the best example I have ever seen is in Lexington, Michigan. http://www.smackwaterdevelopment.com/ There a developer purchased a city block in the small town's miniscule downtown and basically created a new downtown. And it actually works, complementing the existing downtown and it really helped create a community.

Another is First & Main in Hudson ... http://www.firstandmainhudson.com/  Unfortunately the website doesn't have too many pictures of the development. There is a map of the development which gives some indication as to its integration with the historic business district on along Route 91. Too bad the traffic in Hudson is awful -- a proposed commuter rail service would use the tracks that form the southern edge of First & Main where the old depot still stands. Oh well.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: jamiec on July 01, 2006, 08:20:48 PM
New buildings CAN be merged with the old, and the best example I have ever seen is in Lexington, Michigan. http://www.smackwaterdevelopment.com/ There a developer purchased a city block in the small town's miniscule downtown and basically created a new downtown. And it actually works, complementing the existing downtown and it really helped create a community.

Another is First & Main in Hudson ... http://www.firstandmainhudson.com/  Unfortunately the website doesn't have too many pictures of the development. There is a map of the development which gives some indication as to its integration with the historic business district on along Route 91. Too bad the traffic in Hudson is awful -- a proposed commuter rail service would use the tracks that form the southern edge of First & Main where the old depot still stands. Oh well.

Haha, funny you should mention that. My parents live in the village section of Hudson, so I have been to First and Main quite often. My parents really enjoy being able to walk everywhere. The grocery store, the post office, the library, retail and restaraunts are all less than five small blocks away. It's nice because there is a decent selection of stores (all aimed at the demographic, of course!:) but not a whole shopping mall innundating the small-town feel. It's well-balanced. And even though Hudson is an affluent town, the concept could work all over the place.

You're right, the traffic can be pretty bad coming down 91 and it backs up pretty far on 303, too. The people in the city fought ODOT tooth and nail to keep those roads at two lanes total, though, and while it's a pain in the a$$ for a motorist, it really has kept the city pedestrian/bike friendly. Because the traffic is slowed by only having two lanes, people aren't afraid to cross over from the retail/restaraunts of Main Street to the town square and then over into the neighborhoods.

KJP, that depot would be the PERFECT place for a commuter rail station! Hudson already gets a lot of rail traffic right through that same area all day and night, so that wouldn't be a problem. I don't think there'd be as much opposition to it down there as there has been in some of the Cleveland suburbs, either, although I could be wrong. The mayor of Hudson even was talking about getting involved in regionalism recently, if I remember correctly. I think they might welcome it because, even though Hudson is a pretty conservative city, they seem to getting really progressive about development issues, ie., putting bike lanes on 91 and 303 and putting very visible "stop for pedestrian" signs on Main Street. I think they are also coming around to the idea that future of Cleveland is important to Hudson, especially because a sizable number of citizens work there. Because Hudson is part of Akron's Metro bus service, the downtown Cleveland options are very scant, though. I've made the rush-hour commute from Hudson to downtown Cleveland via 480 to 77, and it's HORRRRRRRIBLE.

In regards to Lexington, mrnyc, it's a little different from the Hudson development because Lexington is a very, very small/rural town. It's on Lake Huron about 1.5 hours by car from Detroit. It's more a summer home location for people from the city, so it's not as functional. They didn't install any parking decks and they didn't even add any new parking, just changed it to diagonal on-street parking, which I think is funny. But the buildings are very well built and beautiful. Unlike a lot of new developments, they look like they have been there forever. It's quite impressive because this part of SE Michigan is not exactly a wealthy area, lots of blue-collar folks, but it works well. They have motorcycle meetups with people from all over the Detroit area and cruise in and other family-friendly stuff. It's really cool. Besides Ann Arbor and Birmingham, my favorite place in Metro Detroit.

edit: Oh yeah, I didn't mean Eton is an ideal others should strive for, but it's nicer looking than the strip malls across the street. I grew up in Cuyahoga Falls, home of 100% heinous strip malls, so if you jazz one up, I'm easily won over, lol. And for the record, I'm not really a fan of Crocker Park, although I will probably continue to shop there becaue it's closer than Beachwood -- until we get some better downtown options. But CP rubs me the wrong way. It could use some panhandlers or something. It feels like the Twilight Zone.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: w28th on July 02, 2006, 01:15:57 PM
Egggh.  I pray to GOD that anything built in Cleveland does not even remotely resemble that neoclassical bullshit.  Merging new and old?  It's merging old with...  hell with it, I'll just copy/paste my most recent rant on contemporary architecture and urban design,

"I understand your point to possibly seeing older styled lighting/traffic signals at W65th and Detroit because of the surrounding context, but there is a lot of merit to utilizing the idea of exposing the contrast between new and old as a dynamic design gesture.  It reveals the intricacies and detail of the old (buildings, in the case of W65th & Detroit) vs. the smooth or angled of the contemporary (lighting/signals), playing off the idea of the city being a multilayered organism.  This idea could be used throughout the city in a variety of different programs. 

In a previous thread somebody brought up the idea of using the grain silos near the Center Street swing bridge as some ultra contemporary condominium complex.  I love that.  Imagine how interesting this would look if some weird shaped addition to those silos was designed onto it.  Maybe it engages the river somehow.  It’s just an example, but it can be applied to almost anything.

We need to define the time that we’ve had control of the city, and there is no other way to do that than to always be forward thinking when it comes to urban planning and design.  We should be saying, “let’s use what’s left of this old industrial city to be the most progressive city in the world, aesthetically, and then one would hope at some point, socially.'"

Why make architecture look like it was built 100 years ago?  I find it hilarious to see some fake old building that appears "historic" to have a built date on the top "entabliture" and it says 2005.  This crap drives me to drinking.  It only reveals many of today's architects' extremely low self esteem and developers' unimaginative development ideas.

Here is an excellent example of what we should be doing in this city and it's old structures instread of trying to match old architecture:
http://wiener-gasometer.at/de/gasometer/b/
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: KJP on July 02, 2006, 03:08:49 PM
Sorry, but the building on the left doesn't do anything for me. I would much prefer a replica of the building on the right. The beauty of architecture, like art, is always in the eyes of the beholder...

(http://wiener-gasometer.at/images/gasometer-b-schild-highkey-l1000085_pv.jpg)
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: jamiec on July 02, 2006, 03:58:54 PM
Well, you gotta take into account the opinions of the people who live in the community. Lexington, Michigan and Hudson, Ohio are not fertile places for architectural bravado. At least both towns embraced urbanism by rejuvinating their small downtowns with retail/residential development. You can't have everything!

But I'm with KJP on that building above. I guess I don't get it.

I actually like that glass condo tower in the Warehouse District much more.

(http://www.clevelandskyscrapers.com/cleveland/pinnacle.jpg)

Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: KJP on July 02, 2006, 04:12:59 PM
I don't care for Pinnacle either. Looks like it's unfinished.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: CornerCurve on July 02, 2006, 06:48:41 PM
^Is it actually finished? If so, then yeah, it definitely looks unfinished.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: KJP on July 02, 2006, 09:48:03 PM
Yes, the exterior is finished, although I believe some interior spaces aren't yet done (at least they were lagging the last I'd heard).
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: zaceman on July 02, 2006, 09:51:53 PM
what, it looks fine.  i think it matches up with the bridges in the flats.  altho i think its kinda stout and wish it was 5-10 stories taller heh
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: X on July 02, 2006, 10:44:44 PM
It would look better if not for the curved roof.  It doesn't match the rest of the building, which is all right angles except for the recessed balconies, which don't seem to make much of a visual impact in the final design.  Maybe the exposed girders should have been carried around to the top of the building.  And it would look better if it was taller and less long.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: blinker12 on July 03, 2006, 09:30:24 AM
I love the way it looks from a distance, but not up close. Up close the glass already looks kinda dingy or something.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: lammonator on July 03, 2006, 09:46:03 AM
Fairmount was the developer for First & Main in Hudson.  Maybe its not so bad afterall?   :|

P.S.  I'm new here...so I'll try to keep my comments fairly educated. 
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: CornerCurve on July 03, 2006, 10:02:25 AM
^My uneducated comments are usually how I find out things quickest, so comment awaY! :-D

And welcome to the forum.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: StrapHanger on July 05, 2006, 10:47:27 AM
I'm on board with W28 (maybe arch school has a standard brainwashing effect).  I haven't been to Crocker Park but quick drive-throughs of Legacy Village and Eton Collection made me uber-queasy.  Heck, even typing the cutesy names hurts.  To say they're better than the strip malls across the street may be true in many people's eyes, but not sure that's much of a test.

It should be pretty interesting to see how (assuming away the "if") mega-projects like Flats EB and WB, Pest (not sure why we use "Pesht") and the UC "uptown Euclid" (or whatever it's called) shake out.  I think it would be a real bummer if we end up with a bunch of bland boxes, cheaply dressed up on the surface to appear like separate older buildings (the fakey downtown look) or,  on the other hand, a set of identical bland boxes like those shown in the albeit very early renderings of FEB.  Surely there's something better out there that isn't alienatingly bizarre or blandly slick and glassy one hand but isn't run-of-the-mill neo-snore inducing or cloying either.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: theguv on July 05, 2006, 01:46:57 PM

KJP, that depot would be the PERFECT place for a commuter rail station! Hudson already gets a lot of rail traffic right through that same area all day and night, so that wouldn't be a problem. I don't think there'd be as much opposition to it down there as there has been in some of the Cleveland suburbs, either, although I could be wrong. The mayor of Hudson even was talking about getting involved in regionalism recently, if I remember correctly. I think they might welcome it because, even though Hudson is a pretty conservative city, they seem to getting really progressive about development issues, ie., putting bike lanes on 91 and 303 and putting very visible "stop for pedestrian" signs on Main Street.

Wasn't there a commuter rail line of sorts connecting hudson and clevo back in the day??
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: KJP on July 05, 2006, 02:02:41 PM
Each rail line into Cleveland had at least one round trip train permitting a work day in Cleveland. The one that lasted the longest was a Conrail service from Youngstown to Cleveland via Warren, Garrettsville, Aurora, Solon, North Randall and many other enroute stops.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: w28th on July 12, 2006, 09:19:39 AM
Beating a dead horse, but simply replicating old buildings trivializes both the new architecture and the old.  It becomes nothing more than "decorating" a contemporary structural system with styraphome (sp), and calling any architect a decorator is just about the worst thing one can say.  But for the most part, in places like Crocker, Legacy, whatever, that is the case. 
It is the equivalent of putting a propeller on an F15.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: 3231 on July 12, 2006, 09:37:36 AM
It bothers me more when a developer replicates an old building in an established urban area than when the same is done in suburbia. When done downtown, the new building usually sticks out like a sore thumb. In suburbia, the entire setting is a farce so the building doesn't bother me as much.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: mrnyc on July 12, 2006, 10:03:41 AM
hey w28 right on. put those grain silos and warehouses, etc. to use. put some interesting new structures with them too, fine. that shows off that yes we are reverantly reusing an old building, but we are in the here and now as well.

anyway that kind of stuff is happening in clev too, ie., i take you approve of the stonebridge cantina building?
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: Map Boy on July 12, 2006, 10:10:27 AM
But what about the question of whether or not the design creates a pleasant, or better yet, inspiring setting?  I know, people with discriminating tastes (like us!) will walk into this new development and set off on our hyper-critical analysis, but what if the place is actually designed well, while taking cues or even mimicking a style from the past?  I don't see anything wrong with that. 

Understanding that I'd want something modern and unique (that hasn't been done before) that can accomplish the best result even moreso, if this project (or others) can be accomplished by borrowing from the past, but using quality materials, creating a superior product, and a desireable place to live, work and play, then I'm not going to complain.  Now, if the use of classical or traditional styles is just a token gesture...like adding cheap crowns or mock roof-lines to a building and it ends up looking like freakin Disneyworld, then I'll complain! 

One of the hazards of trying to do something new and unique is that you'll produce something that people don't understand...renters, buyers, commercial tenants, whatever...and the project gets lost along the way.  On the other hand, you might end up with something that everyone else in the country will want to emulate for generations.

Interesting conversation...you think anyone's listening?
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: blinker12 on July 12, 2006, 10:23:32 AM
When it comes to this project and its design, my mind just can't get past the 1) undiscriminating demolition of everything in sight and 2) the bazillion parking spaces. It's hard for me to imagine good urban design resulting from those premises.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: Map Boy on July 12, 2006, 10:31:01 AM
Agreed
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: mrnyc on July 12, 2006, 10:37:21 AM
mgd good point. this is the problem wolstein is stuck with in the east bank setting. imo it's such a unique area and given local history and that particular setting the pressure is really on (from an architectural point of view).

west bank, pesht and the avenue are luckier not to have much of that baggage. those sites are almost ideal urban tabla rasas.

so if wolstein can pull off a functional and beautiful looking miracle we can all be proud off, he should be handed a scepture, hoisted up on a throne and paraded up and down euclid avenue (sorry for the hoisting and parading flight of fancy, but the italian giglio fest is going on this week in williamsburg and has been in the local ny news - ha).

here it is - if all goes well, post east-bank build out wolstein's parade seat goes way up top here yee-ha!:
(http://www.giglio-usa.org/images/Br%201962%20Album%20Cover.jpg)
fun info link: http://www.giglio-usa.org/Giglio_Facts.htm


Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: StrapHanger on July 12, 2006, 10:40:52 AM
I'm worrying more and more about the demo too.  It's more than the river and views that make the Flats so cool, it's the history and layers of architecture and infrastructure. 
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: mrnyc on July 13, 2006, 12:29:17 AM
i said it initially and i will say it again. there are two to look out for: the first rockefeller warehouse and kindlers. both should be saved. both structures are locally historic, if not architecturally significant. the city should twist wolstein's arm to incorporate them somehow.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: 3231 on July 13, 2006, 01:03:00 PM
Talks on Flats East Bank appear headed to court
Thursday, July 13, 2006
By Ken Prendergast
Brooklyn Sun Journal
CLEVELAND _ Months after two property owners were sued to take their land for the proposed Flats East Bank neighborhood, no one is doing any negotiating that would prevent the takings from going to court. That communication isn't happening, despite a desire by city officials to see negotiations thrive among all parties involved.

In particular, two property owners who have been sued and have proposed development projects of their own said they were frustrated at the lack of discussions. The Shaia Family and a partnership of Rustom Khouri and Jim Kassouf have proposed high-rise condominium projects on land they own at the northeast corner of the Wolstein Group's planned Flats East Bank neighborhood.

More at cleveland.com http://www.cleveland.com/sun (http://www.cleveland.com/sun)
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: zaceman on July 13, 2006, 01:24:42 PM
I think at this point id rather see lighthouse landing get built even if its a "risk" of not building the east bank project.  altho at this point how far can shaia go with his project??
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: Map Boy on July 13, 2006, 01:29:10 PM
Excellent article, KJP.  You really delivered a lot of what has been expressed here in a concise, well-written piece!  I hope people outside the forum are reading!
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: Map Boy on July 13, 2006, 01:31:31 PM
^good question zaceman...how far can Shaia go?  if the court battle really takes place and he's ready to break ground in 6 months, what then?  Does he risk starting and then losing the property and all the money he's sunk into it?  What scenarios can the courts create here anyway?  Is it either the land is transferred or not?  Is it one piece of land at a time or all at once? 
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: StrapHanger on July 13, 2006, 02:10:30 PM
Sahia can't really move forward as long as the ED proceedings are hanging over his head- no reputable bank would finance the project and no prudent buyer would put a deposit down under these circumstances.  Shaia might be able to recover some of his development soft costs, however, if the court deems them to have increased the value of the property.  Should be super interesting to see if this is headed to court, to city hall, or back to the negotiating table...  I also wonder if anything is going on behind the scenes.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: Map Boy on July 13, 2006, 03:58:01 PM
^right...good points Strap.  It's rare for a development in this city to get financed without some presales (Avenue District) or momentum built up from other phases (Stonebridge).  Shaia's would certainly be contingent upon this and the risk involved with eminent domain proceedings is pretty significant.

As KJP's article implied, it's unfortunate that more negotiation and collaboration is not being pursued with this project.  Or, at least, not to our knowledge.  It would be a shame for the city to lose out on development potential and possibly suffer from long-run negative impacts due to having developers at war with each other.  Also, there's always the issue of what kind of precedent eminent domain cases set for the future of development in a city.

I, too, am wondering what's going on behind the scenes...or at least, what's going on in the mind of Wolstein!
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: KJP on July 13, 2006, 06:05:52 PM
Nancy Lesic did call me back, but after deadline. I will run a follow-up next week with her comments. But the gist of her statement was that as long as the port authority is doing the property acquisitions and, since then, taking the legal actions, Scott Wolstein can't get involved in negotiations.

Yet that only reinforces the basic theme of my article -- no one appears empowered to alter/adjust the process based on changing conditions (such as a legitimate development proposal or two). The whole thing is locked in a state of legally enforced inertia and with no apparent ability to change it without the intervention of a common pleas court judge.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: sky on July 14, 2006, 12:45:25 PM
Great post, KJP.

Nancy Lesic is lying to protect her client (hard to believe, I know). 

Yes, technically, the Port Authority facilitates the "negotiations," but Scott Wolstein tells the Port what to do.  SCOTT WOLSTEIN makes ALL DECISIONS regarding which properties to go after and how much the Port is authorized to pay.

Scott Wolstein's new company (Flats East Bank Development, LLC) signed a Development Agreement with the Port in 2005.  The contract stipulates that the developer (Scott Wolstein) controls all property acquisition decisions and will ultimately pay money to control whatever properties are acquired by the Port.

It is up to Scott Wolstein to decide which properties he wants to try to "land grab" and which ones he chooses to leave alone.   For example, there are 2 properties in the Community Development Plan area that Wolstein has chosen to leave alone (1100 West 9th and also 1150 West 9th).  Just ask Bob Brown or Daryl Rush from the City to see the paperwork.  Scott Wolstein is the one who's abusing eminent domain and refusing to help Khouri & Shaia with their deals. 
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: gotribe on July 14, 2006, 02:09:26 PM
^Any idea why he is leaving 1100 and 1150 alone?
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: clvlndr on July 15, 2006, 08:48:09 PM
ncs wrote (June 23, 2005) - "I love how Stonebridge just came together.  There was really no news about this large development 7 years ago.  No huge master plan posted all over the Plain Dealer and all over the news.  It seems like those kind of projects are just set up to fail."

I say amen to that!  And Scott Wolstein is a perfect example of what ncs means -- all the friggin' pomp, circumstance and secrecy until the BIG UNVIELING replete w/ Mayor Campbell and other pols along w/ all the media outlets.  I would never sneer at all the money the Wolstein family has given to education and medicine in this town.  But development-wise? ... Wolstein wants the public to love him (as in, putting the public fisc + political mechanics squarely behind him).  I don't like the renegade owners who sat on their land until Wolstein moved, but they've got a point: the Wolstein's sat on E. Bank property for nearly 2 decades; watched it deteriorate and, now, with the weight of the Port Authority and City Council, want to force owners out at bargain basement prices -- true, these robbers wanted it both ways in getting the lower reassessments when their businesses failed (& who sat on their boarded-up properties, like the Wolstein's), but Wolstein is no aggrieved prince/savior in all this, either.  The whole mess smells, and people here (in addition to the PD's respectable architecture critic, Steve Litt) are rightfully iffy about the sterile design of Wolstein's proposed residential buildings in wiping out some of the handsome, quirky and historic warehouses that formed the core of Old River Road's electric/eclectic nightlife district up through the year 2000.

And I'm not saying the Shaia's are saints, either, but Victor's proposed "Lighthouse" condo towers are frankly even more exciting looking that Wolstein's venture.  And as it was noted in KJP's, something REALLY smells about the Port Auth instituting eminent domain (essentially a taking w/o just compensation) of Shaia's surface parking land to turn it back into ... SURFACE PARKING.  Especially if we could have high-end, new-construction condo towers on them (all 3 elements being rare in downtown, even w/ all the residential surge, esp the last 2). 

And let's not strain imagination/optimism.  Do you really think Shaia and Wolstein are talking behind closed doors?  Not!  This is classic Cleveland 'planning', 2 warring factions that can't agree, won't compromise (or even negotiate) who, in the end, may destroy the E. Bank market for everyone.  At the very least, I think it'll be years before any construction can start (keep in mind, Wolstein, even at the mega-announcement in May 2005, didn't even project an opening until 2009, at his optimistic earliest).  And what if, while this court battle rages on, the downtown housing market goes sour, killing the project, and leaving us with promises and vacant, surface parking and weed-choked gravel, much like what happened w/ the Marous' District Park, which we all thought would be nearing completion of Phase I about now -- turned out to be Phase Nothing.  I'm not saying the East Bank will end up this way, but you never know... espcially in Cleveland ... At the very least, I'm afraid I can confidently predict that, at least for a considerable while, we'll just have to be content to watch the condo boom cranes rise... on the WEST Bank of the Flats, as owners over there are less about talk and more about cooperation and action.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: AmrapinVA on July 17, 2006, 09:46:55 AM
^^ I see your point...but that being said, I don't see how the Cleveland housing market is going to sour. The area around d'town and d'town itself has seen a slow and steady increase in availability of housing units downtown over the past 20 years and there has been a continuous demand for more. This isn't the office boom of the 80's....the housing stock has been increasing modestly...which each new project getting a little larger in size and scope. It'll be only a matter of time before Sharia and Wolstein realize they're missing out on something good and being to negoitiate something.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: clvlndr on July 18, 2006, 01:28:12 AM
^No, I didn't say the housing market, currently, is sour, but I was implying it easily could become so.  Let's face it, while new home construction, esp of the high-density townhouse type, is strong in the neighborhoods and close-in burbs, downtown is iffy, now, compared to even compared to other the other 2 "Big Cs" right here in Ohio.  We've done fine with office/warehouse conversions, but new construction?  In the 12 years since 18-story Crittendon Apts went on line at the edge of Flats/Warehouse, we've had only 2 all new constructions downtown: (everyone's fave) Stonebridge, and the Pinnacle, which has struggled w/ all kinds of delays and, at this moment, is still unfinished after a very slow construction phase.  Compare the similar record of a Baltimore, Cincy or even Columbus over that same period and, well, you get the picture.  We're only holding our own w/ lowly downtown Detroit (but don't look now, their under a head of steam on the heels of hosting the Super Bowl, and a huge Jerome Bettis/Dave Bing condo project will soon rise on the Detroit river; there's already a, few-years-old gigantic condo tower (Harborplace?) along East Jefferson St. at downtown's edge)

And look at the recent list of failed plans downtown: District Park, of a few years ago on W. 9th, 2 projects named "Courthouse Towers" (1 w/ a glimmering condo tower, the other with mainly a 330 Doubletree hotel).  Even some of our for-sale office/warehouse conversions projects have failed, recently: like the Channel 3 building condos and that large building on W. 4th behind the core W. 6th District of the Warehouse Dist.  Everyone's dazzled by the amazing success of Stonebridge, but Corna/Price are definitely defying the odds downtown.  Yes, Stark and Wolstein have nice plans, but comeon, we in Cleveland should know better than most towns that, so long as girders aren't rising from the ground, the all-to-numerous blueprints aren't even worth the paper they're written on.  If Cleveland had built even half the great plans that have been proposed over the years, we'd be Chicago.

Let's face it, not to be negative (but honest/realistic), any significant project of any kind -- esp high-density residential/hotel or retail downtown -- is a much bigger struggle in Cleveland than it is for most big cities.  That's just our troubling nature that keeps us in our perpetual 'coming from behind' status in so many ways.  The stars must be aligned for really good stuff to happen (and most likely, the good stuff you see is after years, often decades, of a great deal of struggle and heartache --).  And even when we do build a really nice project (the Flats, Tower City, the Rock Hall, the RTA Waterfont Line), we often end up questioning its success, turning our backs on it and achieve the self-fulfilling prophecy of the naysayers as such projects end up failing (or kept barely alive). This is why I fear the worst for Flats East Bank.  Wolstein, who had all the wind in his sails last May, has been fumbling the ball badly, esp in the court of public opinion.  He may only be 2 or 3 sales away from securing his "footprint" land, but it's only going happen after a major court struggle -- and you think there won't be appeals if he succeeds?.

And it's beyond absurd to fight with Victor Shaia to actually try and STOP a major condo development -- in downtown Cleveland, no less (of not 1 but 2 towers); especially when all he wants for this land is surface parking.  And Wolstein isn't even negotiating.  I fear this whole thing is going to collapse -- like I said, I could see the market shift, construction costs to bubble up -- on top of his legal fees fighting fighting the other property owners -- with Wolstein pulling the plug in one of those PD back-pages little articles much like the aforementioned would-be developers.  I sure hope I'm wrong.  I'd HAPPILY eat my words.

Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: blinker12 on July 18, 2006, 10:42:03 AM
Clvndr, you have nothing beyond your own negativity to back up your suspicion that the downtown housing market will become "sour." Cleveland has the fastest-growing downtown population in the Midwest. The Downtown Cleveland Alliance started its clean-and-safe program in April and will expand its programs in coming months to boost downtown events and, possibly, retail hours among other improvements. Who cares whether most housing units being added are renovations? I think that's cool, and it makes sense to reuse what we've got first before building new. Meanwhile, the Avenue seems on track to break ground in late summer/fall (fingers crossed). Try to concentrate on what's going on now rather than what's happened in the past.

Look at what's happening in other old industrial cities like Cleveland. While the inner-city neighborhoods of places like Baltimore and Philadelphia continue their slow death, their downtowns have become quite vibrant. People want to live in downtowns. Now that we're finally paying more attention to quality-of-life issues, through the DCA, than building venues to lure suburbanites, I think it's entirely reasonable to expect our downtown to continue gaining momentum.

Downtown housing projects that fail from here on out are failing because of their own flaws -- and Wolstein's is probably the most flawed among them, for a number of reasons -- not because downtown itself isn't viable.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: gotribe on July 18, 2006, 11:45:33 AM
As I don't totally agree with clvndr, I see their point.  I believe over in the Avenue District thread there was news that it has almost hit the pre-sales requirement for ground-breaking which was something in the order of 25 units I believe.  It is kind of discouraging that living in a region of approximately 3 million people, it is hard  to sell 25 condominiums downtown. 
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: 3231 on July 18, 2006, 11:52:52 AM
^that said, I think that Cleveland is new to the "pre-sell" stuff. I would be nervous about agreeing to buy a home before I ever saw it. 
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: urbanlife on July 18, 2006, 02:03:51 PM
^ i agree about cleveland being new to the presell.  this is one reason that stonebridge was successful, as it was built and then sold off.  stonebridge v is being built part rental as well, with plans to convert later.

the other problem with presell is you have to wait.  at the groundbreaking announcement last fall for avenue district, the plan was to close the parking lots in June 2006 and start construction...almost 2 months behind the initial optimism.  i'm hopeful it still happens, but wouldn't be happy having to wait even longer to get into a home i had already put money down on.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: peabody99 on July 18, 2006, 02:37:43 PM
^ it is a huge leap of faith to do the pre-sell thing. I never thought I would do but it is proably more about my generally not caring for new contruction rather than concerns about final product. the good thing about presales is you get price break.  Stonebridge 4 was seriously behind too. we put a deposit down in Oct 2003, and were in the first group to close in Feb of 2005, over a year later than original projection. Luckily the house in Cleveland Heights took FOREVER to sell so the timing was perfect.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: 3231 on July 24, 2006, 03:08:48 PM
Port Authority buys Flats property
Related Links 
Cleveland-Cuyahoga County Port Authority
 

 

By LESLIE STROOPE

3:07 pm, July 24, 2006



The Cleveland-Cuyahoga County Port Authority has closed its deal to purchase the site of the old Jimmy’s Bar in the Flats from Telecom Acquisition Corp. — a move that puts developers a step closer to revitalizing the Flats as an entertainment, retail and housing district.

The port in April reached an agreement to purchase the property, at 1061 Old River Rd., for the Flats East Bank redevelopment project. A port authority statement did not provide the dollar amount for which it purchased the property. More at cleveland.com http://www.cleveland.com (http://www.cleveland.com)
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: glutmax on July 27, 2006, 03:38:22 PM
Got a question.  Do any of the legal minds on this forum know if the recent Ohio Supreme court decision on eminent domain in norwood will have an effect on the eminent domain proceedings for the Flats e. bank plans? 
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: 3231 on July 27, 2006, 03:40:25 PM
Nope. There is a grandfather clause.  The court decision would make developments like the East Bank very very difficult to do in the future.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: CH Jake on July 27, 2006, 04:53:33 PM
Has anyone seen a map of what properties have already been acquired, which properties are in court for eminent domain proceedings, and which properties are still in (pre-emininent domain) negotiations?

Would be nice to see something posted....
 :wink:
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: blinker12 on July 28, 2006, 06:35:31 AM
Also, Wolstein is approaching the East Bank takings the old-fashioned way: he had City Council declare all properties in question "blighted." So economic development (which Norwood dealt with) is technically not the rationale behind these takes.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: musky on July 28, 2006, 07:29:34 AM
Also, the ruling dealt more with residential takings
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: superceleb on July 28, 2006, 10:07:01 AM
Court limits eminent domain
Court: Money can't drive eminent domain
Thursday, July 27, 2006
Ted Wendling
Plain Dealer Bureau Chief

Columbus -- In a closely watched case with national implications, the Ohio Supreme Court ruled unanimously Wednesday that governments and developers cannot use economic benefit as the sole reason for seizing private property.

The decision is a major victory for property owners in Ohio and an explicit rejection of a U.S. Supreme Court eminent-domain ruling last year. In a Connecticut case, the high court said economic development served such an important public purpose that it justified the taking of even unblighted land.

More at http://www.cleveland.com/economy/plaindealer/index.ssf?/base/news/115398907436920.xml&coll=2 (http://www.cleveland.com/economy/plaindealer/index.ssf?/base/news/115398907436920.xml&coll=2)
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: sky on July 28, 2006, 02:08:01 PM
Ruling pleases lawyers in local domain cases
Thursday, July 27, 2006
Sarah Hollander
Plain Dealer Reporter

Lawyers fighting local eminent domain efforts cheered Wednesday's Ohio Supreme Court ruling in the Norwood case, saying it should give their clients more protection in court.  The court, in a case involving Norwood, near Cincinnati, ruled unanimously that governments and developers cannot use economic benefit as the sole reason for seizing private property.  A dozen lawsuits are pending against property owners who are blocking a city-backed plan to redevelop the east bank of the Flats with housing, restaurants and shops.

More at cleveland.com http://www.cleveland.com (http://www.cleveland.com)
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: musky on July 28, 2006, 08:02:28 PM

If plans for redevelopment fail, Cimperman said he fears for the future of the Flats. "The status quo right now is a death spiral."


Seriously... a death spiral?
You've got tot be kidding.
Is he over generalizing, or am I misinterpreting this statement?
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: jamiec on July 28, 2006, 08:13:35 PM
^^God forbid you fix up an area by not stealing everyone's property.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: peabody99 on July 28, 2006, 09:07:53 PM

If plans for redevelopment fail, Cimperman said he fears for the future of the Flats. "The status quo right now is a death spiral."


Seriously... a death spiral?
You've got tot be kidding.
Is he over generalizing, or am I misinterpreting this statement?
I agree "death spiral" is way over the top. What about the west Bank?? What about those of us that already  live in the death spiral? gee thanks.   JC needs to explain.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: X on July 29, 2006, 12:28:37 PM
The only part of the Flats in a death spiral is the part that Wolstein owns and wanted to have declared blighted.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: MyTwoSense on July 29, 2006, 02:59:56 PM
just a thought, if this project does not move forward, would all the proposed projects that developers came out with AFTER THE ANNOUNCEMENT OF WOLSTEINS, move forward?  Especially Lighthouse Landing.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: sky on July 31, 2006, 08:20:06 AM
The intelligence factor of Cimperman's quotes have been in a 'death spiral'
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: musky on August 09, 2006, 01:46:28 PM
Notes from Flats Oxbow

Quote
Design Review Meeting & 7/5/06

The Design Review Committee passed the façade & signage for Larry Flint’s Hustler Club @ 1041 Old River Road as originally presented on June 20, 2006 and approved it on July 5, 2006 when the applicant presented the additional information the Committee sought.  The Design Review Committee further advised the applicant that any changes to the buildings on Front Street would be considered new submissions to Design.

and:

Quote
New Project News – So, What’s New?
by Jessica G. Dunn, Strnisha Development Advisors

Scott Wolstein’s Flats East Bank project has a new partner.  The redevelopment team will be working with Building Cleveland by Design to explore ways to incorporate art, park design, and sustainability into the $230 million project.  Building Cleveland by Design, managed by ParkWorks and Cleveland Public Art, has been awarded a two-year, $440,000 grant from the George Gund Foundation to provide resources and expertise in these areas to regional development projects.

and, finally:

Quote
Patrol Officer John Hategan of the 2nd District presented a traffic plan for the West Bank.   (Sergeant James O’Malley wrote the plan but could not be in attendance today.)

Purpose
During recent West Bank of the Flats details, heavy traffic led us to determine that the current traffic patterns may be outdated and in need of review. Gridlock is a common occurrence during busy weekends and special events and with the increase of residential properties in the area, we feel that if changes were made, emergency services could respond in an efficient, safe manner without the constant monitoring and street closing by law enforcement at key intersections. It is our opinion that some or all of the below changes could be effective:

Proposal:

1.   Make Center and Main a four way stop intersection. This would assist in traffic flow and create a safe option for entering Main Ave. Several obstructions from parked cars and hills lead to a traffic hazard.
2.   Place stop signs at Main & Elm, creating a three way stop intersection to assist in traffic flow.
3.   Make Elm St. one way North from Elm to River St.
4.   Make Center St. one way south from River to Main Ave.
5.   Make Hemlock one-way East from Mulberry to Elm St.
6.   Make Spruce one-way West from Elm St.

The addition of one-way streets would allow law enforcement to maintain a safe flow of traffic and would assist if street closures are needed.

Essentially, it’s easier to close and secure a one-way street than a two way street. Less officers and cars are needed. This allows other officers to enforce traffic laws and maintain police visibility in the area.

(NOTE: This type of closure is often utilized when traffic backs up so that emergency services can proceed to an assignment without undue interruption.)

Special Issues / Considerations

1.   Parking on these streets would need to be reviewed. Permitting curb parking in areas previously restricted may be necessary.

2.   The width of Elm and Center streets would need to be considered. They are basically wide streets when the curbs are clear. We would not want to create an opportunity for drag racing or illegal passing. Painting solid lines or lane markings to force “one lane” may resolve this issue.

River Street would need to remain a two way street due to the mines. NO OUTLET signs at Center and River may be needed.
Summary

These recommendations come after several years of maintaining traffic in these areas during heavy traffic times and would assist law enforcement in effectively maintaining a safe traffic flow for public safety and emergency response.

There were questions on how long it would take to implement the plan.

Commissioner Rob Mavec (City of Cleveland – Traffic Engineering) had a suggestion to limit the times to only late evening early morning. The majority of people in attendance agreed that it should be 24/7.  Commissioner Mavec said he would meet with Sergeant O’Malley. This could possibly be in place by next weekend.
There was a request for speed limit signs on the viaduct.

Rhona Allen requested a Handicap sign for in front of her shop on Old River Rd.  There will be a meeting at the Imrov on August 2, 2006 at 9am regarding the W. 28th/W. 25th/Washington/Division area by ODOT.


I wonder why nobody brought up public transportation, or the proposed elevator to the viaduct.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: 3231 on August 09, 2006, 01:49:55 PM
I was hoping that there was some news regarding some final land acquisitions. :(
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: Punch on August 09, 2006, 02:19:32 PM
So, if Wolstien gets all east bank properties, will Larry Flint find his way up to the warehouse district?  :|
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: urbanlife on August 09, 2006, 02:44:34 PM
^ hopefully one of the vacant e4 properties.  closer to businesses and hotels, what could be a better location?
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: 3231 on August 09, 2006, 02:53:46 PM
^I'd kind of like to keep the Hustler stuff on the fringes of downtown. If they want problems, they'd put it next to the gay bathhouse.  Overly-zealous hetero males are strangely offended by the homo lifestyle.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: MyTwoSense on August 09, 2006, 02:53:49 PM
^ ..... what could be a better location?

Your street??  LOL
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: MyTwoSense on August 09, 2006, 02:54:25 PM
Overly-zealous hetero males are strangely offended by the homo lifestyle.

since when?
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: Map Boy on August 09, 2006, 03:07:15 PM
I was thinking the old Moda space would be perfect!
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: 3231 on August 09, 2006, 03:09:45 PM
I was thinking the old Moda space would be perfect!

By the way, we did see someone (a painter?) working in the Moda space two nights ago.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: peabody99 on August 09, 2006, 03:16:37 PM
I was thinking the old Moda space would be perfect!
noooooooo. check cashing and pay day loan in liquor store starting to sound classier!
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: 3231 on August 09, 2006, 03:18:47 PM
How about the Moda Pawn Shop?
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: X on August 09, 2006, 03:29:10 PM
On W. 130th there is a Bar/Pawn Shop.  I have always wanted to go there and pawn something for a beer, but I've never found the right item.  Perhaps this concept could be taken upscale and brought to Ohio City.  I think that a lot of people would think it's a "hoot".
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: clvlndr on August 10, 2006, 02:03:55 AM
just a thought, if this project does not move forward, would all the proposed projects that developers came out with AFTER THE ANNOUNCEMENT OF WOLSTEINS, move forward?  Especially Lighthouse Landing.

My guess would be: No.  Despite the contentious relationship btw Shaia and Wolstein, fact is the Lighthouse is attempting to piggyback on Wolstein's success.  If Wolstein's shops and retail and high-density residential development along the river are suddenly removed, what motivation would people have to rent in a high-rise condo that is inland surrounded by the gravel and dust of the Port Auth, the sleaze Larry Flynt's Hustler club and the crumbling, abandoned Old River Road warehouse/former clubs regardless of how attractive the Lighthouse buildings are, themselves?  And given the tight pre-sales/loan formula that is utilized by local banks, it is doubtful that construction would commence if the market suddenly turns sluggish.  If Wolstein fails, Shaia's project dies too... and then we're stuck with nothing. 

Cimperman's 'death spiral' comments may be strong, but Wolstein's (and hence Shaia's) failure would be an extreme blow to the Flats.  A half-of Flats -- West Bank, only-- won't fly despite Stonebridge's amazing growth -- that one project can't carry the whole area.  And let's not delude ourselves that the West Bank is all that healthy, either.  With the quiet closing of Riverwalk Cafe, if I'm not mistaken, we're down to just one river-level, sit-down Flats eatery on either side of the river: Shooters; and from all I'm hearing, Shooter's is on the brink of closure, itself; that this summer may be its last hurrah.

I sure hope not, but what restauranters are finding is the charm of sitting along the river has been greatly diminished since West Bank diners are sitting facing a bunch of dilapidated warehouses across the riv -- no fun!
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: clvlndr on August 10, 2006, 02:07:09 AM
Oh yeah, we've heard about the massive Wolstein, Jeff Jacobs (plus I forget the other playa) casino, retail (hotel?) development IF Ohio passes the casino vote.  That's a big if.  If it flies, we could see a massive development that could sweep to the East side and get development pumping even if Wolstein fails -- but, of course, Wolstein's failure would set us back several years as an entirely new plan would have to be developed.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: gotribe on August 10, 2006, 07:48:49 AM
I think the flats should be revitalized to exactly what it was 10 years ago.  Alot of develpment opportunitiwes were missed at that time such as hotels and parking garages.  That area does not need massive redevelopement, rather, just a spruce up.  I never liked the east bank plan in that it created an isolated island of developement versus just letting dominos fall and build based on demand.  That is the only successful type of developement when it is built on demand versus force fed.  The dominos just began to fall toward the end of the flats (Fed Cths Tower and other proposed project).  Pardon my analogies. 
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: theguv on August 25, 2006, 02:21:44 PM
Not sure if anyone else has posted/seen this tidbit from Fairmount Properties in regards to the development of Flats EastBank.  On their site, they mention a total build out of over 1000 units.  Perhaps they meant to say over 1000 residents?

http://www.fairmountproperties.com/retail-developments.htm

Fairmount Properties was the primary developer of First and Main in Hudson which was recently reviewed by Cooltown Studios
http://www.cooltownstudios.com/mt/archives/000872.html
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: 3231 on August 25, 2006, 02:27:55 PM
So, are they working in collaboration with Wolstein?
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: CtownD on August 30, 2006, 02:20:06 PM
While it's unfortunate to see this have to go to court as opposed to being hammered out in private negotiations I'm still glad to see it progressing.

Flats eminent domain battle set
By JAY MILLER
2:06 pm, August 30, 2006


The legal battle that’s likely to determine the fate of the East Bank of the Flats is set to begin Sept. 25 in Cuyahoga County Probate Court.



http://www.crainscleveland.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060830/FREE/60830009/1004&Profile=1004 (http://www.crainscleveland.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060830/FREE/60830009/1004&Profile=1004)
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: Htsguy on August 30, 2006, 04:52:39 PM
I checked the Probate Court docket to determine who was representing the property owners.  Based on the reputation of a couple of the attorneys, I would say a negotiated settlement is very unlikely for all of the land at issue.  The motion to consolidate was filed by the Port Authority so they must see some sort of strategic advantage to having everything heard in one action (or maybe the Port is just seeking judicial economy and the cost savings (attorneys fees) that follow).
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: Mov2Ohio on August 31, 2006, 10:51:09 AM
So will Wolstein start work on the office building or other parts of this project while the case is in court, or will he wait until he has all the land (if that happens)?
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: jamiec on September 07, 2006, 10:59:20 AM
Who is this woman?



A lawsuit scrutinizing the Cleveland-Cuyahoga County Port Authority's decision to file eminent domain cases against Flats property-owners will go to trial next month.

Lawyers for the port and Cynthia Roether, who filed the suit as an interested taxpayer, met this morning with Cuyahoga Common Pleas Judge Peter Corrigan, who will begin hearing the case at 9:30 a.m. Oct. 17.

Roether's suit alleges that the port abused its powers by filing the suits on behalf of developer Scott Wolstein, who wants to build a $230 million mixed-use housing and retail neighborhood on the east bank of the Flats. The suit seeks to halt Wolstein's attempt to acquire the property through eminent domain.



More at http://www.cleveland.com/weblogs/business/index.ssf?/mtlogs/cleve_business/archives/2006_09.html#180506 (http://www.cleveland.com/weblogs/business/index.ssf?/mtlogs/cleve_business/archives/2006_09.html#180506)
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: Map Boy on September 07, 2006, 11:04:04 AM
there's that "death spiral" quote again!
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: 8ShadesofGray on September 07, 2006, 01:34:06 PM
^^ Haven't you read? She's an interested taxpayer. Actually, it looks like Ms. Roether has kept a pretty low profile ... the only search engine info I could get was from this case. She apparently resides over in the Kamm's Corner area (per the auditor's record of her property ownership (http://auditor.cuyahogacounty.us/repi/transfer.asp?txtParcel=02411042), and her only local interaction with civil law in the last several years involved a motor vehicle tort back in the late 90s (per a name search here: http://cpdocket.cp.cuyahogacounty.us/).

But most importantly, of course ... she's an interested citizen!
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: jamiec on September 07, 2006, 01:52:31 PM
Well, I'm an interested citizen, too!

I thought the property owners were the litigants in this. This is bizarre to me, but I'm no real estate expert. How can you sue before anything happens?
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: 3231 on September 07, 2006, 01:55:28 PM
well, the Port Authority has already began the process. Also, you can always file for an injunction to stop an action.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: StrapHanger on September 07, 2006, 02:03:20 PM
The big question is whether or not she even has standing to sue based solely on her status as a tax-payer.  Not sure what the state of play is in Ohio.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: 8ShadesofGray on September 07, 2006, 02:07:44 PM
Urban Ohio forumers should all file amicus curiae briefs on behalf of Wolstein ... as interested citizens and what not  :-D
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: 3231 on September 07, 2006, 02:15:59 PM
The big question is whether or not she even has standing to sue based solely on her status as a tax-payer.  Not sure what the state of play is in Ohio.

Not sure either. The real question may center around her mental capacity ;)
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: sky on September 07, 2006, 02:35:45 PM
WHERE'S THE LEADERSHIP IN THIS TOWN??  (Answer:  there is none). 

A leader would get the parties together and figure out a way to broker a deal so that Wolstein gets to do his project AND the other owners do not get screwed.  Yes, that could mean that the other owners get to share in the risk/rewards of Wolstein's project.  Or that could mean that Wolstein's concepts are modified to include the other owners.

Mayor Jackson hasn't done anything to work things out. 

Joe Cimperman is afraid of his own shadow.  He hasn't done anything to broker a deal.

It's too bad that our politicians can't pull this together.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: 3231 on September 07, 2006, 02:40:34 PM
Joe Cimperman is afraid of his own shadow.

Where the hell do you come off with that?  Look, I wish that this had happened in a much better fashion, but its ridiculous to make worthless comments like that.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: sky on September 07, 2006, 03:38:59 PM
Nothing against Joe Cimperman, but look at the facts.  The Flats East Bank is in Ward 13.  Joe Cimperman has been the Ward 13 councilman during the later part of the White administration, thru Campbell's administration and now into Jackson's administration.  Jane Campbell was working with Scott Wolstein very closely for years on this project.  When she lost the election, Jackson took a "hands off" approach to Campbell projects.  He's been generally supportive of Wolstein, but hasn't got directly involved. 

Joe Cimperman is another story.  He's been involved with this from the beginning.  The other owners have been asking him for help for over two years with this situation.  They have gotten some positive lip service, but Cimperman has not actually done anything to broker a deal.  Actually, there have been a few occasions where he’s been purposely misleading: 
•   Summer of 2005 – Wolstein’s plans are announced.  Many of the other Flats East Bank owners call Cimperman to ask for a “process that is fair to everyone.” 
•   Fall of 2005 - The City set ups a “blighted area” and establishes a “Community Action Plan.”  Cimperman was quietly but fully involved in these processes.  He made sure that the only property owner involved was Scott Wolstein.
•   Fall & Winter of 2005 – The other owners continue to call Cimperman to ask for a “process that is fair to everyone.” 
•   February 2006 – At a council meeting where Steve Strnisha (Wolstein’s consultant) was prepping Council about project details.   There were many routine questions asked (about public art and minority participation).  Cimperman asked 1 question.  His LOADED QUESTION was “For the record, will there be any request to City Council to use eminent domain?”  To which Strnisha said “no” in a loud voice and added that Wolstein is making offers to buy the properties he needs.  Martin Sweeney then unexpectedly stepped in and asked if anyone had accepted any of Wolstein’s offers yet.  Strnisha said “no” in a quieter tone.  Sweeney asked what would happen in the other property owners do not accept the offers.  Strnisha responded “We think they will.”  Sweeney pressed, “What if they don’t?”  Strnisha responded “we’re working with everyone.”  Sweeney pressed again “what if they don’t accept?”  In a barley audible voice, Strnisha said “The Port Authorty has eminent domain power that we can use.” 
•   Spring 2006 – Several other property owners either submit their own development plans or tout ideas to work with Wolstein.  These are uniformly ignored by Cimperman. 
•   Summer 2006 – Wolstein signs a “Development Agreement” with the City for Flats East Bank.  This gives Wolstein full power to develop other people’s properties (between the river and West 9th).  Cimperman supports this agreement even though it completely diminishes the rights of other property owners.
•   Look at Ken Prendergast’s Sun articles in June and July.  Cimperman says “let the negotiations thrive.”  While knowing full well that Wolstein is stonewalling negotiations and simply trying to screw the other owners in court.

Let’s face it, Cimperman has political ambitions beyond being a councilman.  He will not frustrate a big political spender like Scott Wolstein.  Especially when Cimperman likes Wolstein’s project and doesn’t really care about the means used to get it.  The end justifies the means.

So someone, please explain to me how Cimperman is doing his job in this situation.   How is he trying to broker a deal or work things out?  How is he is getting his hands dirty?  What has he done to roll up his sleeves and get to work? 

We’re talking about over $100 million of public money going to one private developer’s project.  I think this calls for active and real LEADERSHIP.

Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: 3231 on September 07, 2006, 03:55:49 PM
^I am still not sure where personal attacks have a place in this discussion.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: metrocity on September 07, 2006, 04:26:30 PM
^
Quote
the sleaze Larry Flynt's Hustler club...

That goes for Flynt too
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: jamiec on September 07, 2006, 05:03:18 PM
This whole thing is bizarre! Maybe Henry Gomez will enlighten us tomorrow.

All I know is, if the Flats stay crappy because a bunch of people can't work together, I'm going to be angry!
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: mrnyc on September 07, 2006, 05:40:35 PM
the fairmount link says they are breaking ground in fall, 2006. lawsuit or no lawsuit with the stragglers, does wolstein control enough property yet for that to happen? it would be nice if he could fastrack and get some of it up and going. when they steamroller it usually then the opposition falls away.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: Htsguy on September 07, 2006, 06:15:15 PM
If I recall the judge in the Roether common pleas case denied a temporary restraining order when the case was first filed.  I tried to check the docket but could not find the case (just the 1997 tort matter).  Her name may be mis-spelled somewhere.  Without having read the pleadings, I imagine she has filed what's known as a "taxpayer's action" which has a statutory basis.  In my experience the "independent" taxpayer usually has a connection to a party (in this case a property owner) and their attorney fees are usually paid for by the real party in interest.  Looks like the property owners are attempting to fight this on as many fronts as possible.

In Probate Court, a motion to consolidate the various eminent domain suits is set for hearing on September 27.

I don't believe Wolstein can proceed without many of the parcels at issue.  If I recall correctly a few of them are in heart of the development.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: CtownD on September 07, 2006, 07:01:13 PM
I'll apologize for the non-sequitur in advance, but did Fairmount Properties either merge or acquire Heartland Developers?  After browsing through their website I noticed that all of Heartland's properties (Sussex Courts, South Park Row, Jay Hotel, and Avalon Station) are listed on Fairmount's website.  Sorry if this was posted elsewhere and I simply overlooked it, but it was just something that caught my attention.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: mrnyc on September 08, 2006, 10:58:50 AM
thanks for the explanation htsguy.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: musky on September 25, 2006, 08:16:07 AM
I heard on WCPN that the court hearings will start today.
The reporter stated that the judge is giving the both sides 3 days each to make their case.
So I'm thinking we will hear something withinthe next two weeks.
But what do I know?
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: musky on September 25, 2006, 04:01:10 PM
Judge hears eminent domain arguments


2:56 p.m.

Cuyahoga County Probate Court Judge John E. Corrigan heard arguments Monday on a request to consolidate 14 lawsuits involving eminent domain in Cleveland’s Flats said he expects to make a decision soon.

The Cleveland-Cuyahoga County Port Authority filed the cases in May and June after property owners refused to sell to make way for developer Scott Wolstein’s redevelopment plans for the area.

More at cleveland.com http://www.cleveland.com (http://www.cleveland.com)
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: Htsguy on September 25, 2006, 07:34:31 PM
The  hearing only relates to a motion to consolidate all the separate eminent domain actions into one proceeding.  It is more procedural than substantive, although I imagine some substantive issues will come into play. The court's eventual ruling on the motion  (maybe in a few weeks...I believe after the hearing the judge will allow the parties time to submit supplemental briefs which will take additional time) will not resolve the cases.  It is going to be some time until the merits of the actions (or perhaps a single action if the motion to consolidate is granted) will be addressed.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: musky on September 27, 2006, 12:20:38 PM
Quote
Consolidating the Eminent Domain Cases

Aired September 26, 2006

A judge is considering whether to consolidate 14 cases challenging the Cleveland-Cuyahoga County Port Authority's right to acquire property in the East Flats through eminent domain. The Port Authority plans to sell the land to developer Scott Wolstein. ideastream's Lisa Ann Pinkerton has more.

Listen to the MP3: http://www.wcpn.org/mp3/2006/0926edCon.mp3 (http://www.wcpn.org/mp3/2006/0926edCon.mp3)

Lawyers for the Port Authority argued Monday that the 14 cases are so similar in their grievances and evidence that they should all be tried together. Lead Attorney for the Port Authority Steve Kaufman says this would prevent long delays leading up to the trial. In response, the lawyers for the 14 property owners argued each of their cases is unique and that trying them together would violate property owners rights. They did offer to shave time off the pre-trial process by consolidating the cases for discovery purposes only.

The two sides differ on the relevance of a recent Ohio Supreme Court decision that barred a Cincinnati suburb from using eminent domain to obtain property for economic development. Lawyers for the Port Authority argue it has no relevance in this case. The landowners say that ruling would apply.

Aides to Judge John Corrigan say he'll decide on whether to consolidate the cases within a week or two.

Lisa Ann Pinkerton, 90.3.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: musky on October 05, 2006, 10:23:03 PM
I just heard on the news tonight (wkyc) the judge ruled all of the cases could be heard at one time instead of eight separate cases. Not sure if that will be bad or good, but my gut tells me it is good
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: 3231 on October 06, 2006, 08:09:15 AM
Also, the judge is fast-tracking the discovery phase. 
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: Htsguy on October 06, 2006, 08:41:20 AM
According to the PD discovery is to be completed by November 24 with a trial now slated to start in December.  Now that the judge has ordered all eight cases consolidated (as requested by the Port Authority and opposed by the property owners) it will be interesting to see if any of the remaining owners settle between now and trial.  I doubt that consolidation will trigger settlement but maybe information that comes out during the discovery phase (although I cannot imagine what that might be) might encourage at least a couple of owners to relent.  It appears however that a most of the owners have really dug in their heels and a trial is in the cards.  Appeals are likely too.  This could drag on for quite some time.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: musky on October 06, 2006, 03:04:19 PM
But probably not as long as it would be if they were held separate.

What exactly is the discovery phase?
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: 3231 on October 06, 2006, 03:13:20 PM
Discovery is a phase before a trial where each party can ask questions of each other.  The idea is to allow each party to be as well-prepared for trial as possible. You have to hand over all the evidence that you plan to give at trial. You also forward a list of questions that the other party is supposed to answer to the best of their knowledge. The only thing that is sacred is the attorney-work product (attorneys thoughts on conclusions concerning the evidence). Court is not like the movies with all the surprise witnesses and shocking evidence (ie My Cousin Vinny).  
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: KJP on October 08, 2006, 08:04:14 AM
If you want to follow the progress of the case(s), go to http://probate.cuyahogacounty.us/pa/pa.urd/PAMW6500 , click on each case then click on dockets.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: clvlndr on October 08, 2006, 01:23:32 PM
Discovery also can have the effect of speeding up or even circumventing trial, in some instances.  It's kind of like high stakes poker... The game is: how much evidence can we get, from the other guys, on the record so as to hone our strategy... if, say, you can get some key (pro) documentary evidence in through requests for docs along with interrogatories, then build on them through witness depositions (much more flexible and free-wheeling than in-court testimony) based on what is or isn't in those docs, you can keep that piece of evidence out of trial; or you can settle (or convince your opponent to do so) based on what's gleaned in discovery.  Sometimes you don't want to lay down too much of your hand, strategy-wise... sometimes you do, in hopes they may feel the pressure (at least from their client) to settle and, hence, free up the docket ....  In any event, a good judge wants to stay on top of things to see whether or not he feels either you or the other guy is wasting his time and (taxpayer) money by dragging a full case to trial... That's why this judge moved to consolidate -- a trial/court economy thing where all the issues could be killed with one stone.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: mrnyc on October 09, 2006, 12:01:08 PM
oh boy here we go. its good they are consolidated, this will speed things up in court. the bluff has been called and i'd bet at least a few owners fold before a trial.

i think evidence of the property owners under-use, mis-use and non-use for decades will win the case in the end, but we'll see you never know. i just wonder how far along west bank/stonebridge, the avenue and even stark's projects will be before wolstein ever gets it going?

Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: clvlndr on October 09, 2006, 06:47:41 PM
I'm hoping if the ruling against the adversaries is decisive, they'll give up the ghost facing long odds and legal fees for any appeal.  Plus, at some point, with all the progress, I'm gambling that these guys are not going to want to bear the public shame as being greedy obstructionists (of course, since they've gone this far, these guys are w/o shame anyway).
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: musky on October 09, 2006, 10:26:14 PM
What about the hustler club? Are they not continuing with their construction of the in and outside?
I bet they plan on putting up a fight.

Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: Htsguy on October 09, 2006, 11:20:06 PM
While I am not an expert on eminent domain cases, many of the factors mentioned above really don't have much relevance in the actual proceeding.  There are generally two primary issues, one:  should there be a "governmental taking" of private property (and with the recent Ohio Supreme Court decision this is much more complex than in the past....although in my opinion it clearly is not a bar to a taking as the properly owners attorneys are clearly asserting) and two: if a taking is in order, what is the value of the property (experts are used to establish value and it can become pretty complex).
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: Mov2Ohio on October 12, 2006, 05:28:38 PM
The Cleveland-Cuyahoga County Port Authority has reached a tentative deal with one of the holdouts standing in the way of Scott Wolstein's $230 million plan to redevelop the east bank of the Flats.

In a statement released this afternoon, the Port said the Shaia family, which owns parking lot property at West 10th Street and Main Avenue, has agreed in principle to sell the site. The deal would give Wolstein 73% of the land the developer and the port say is needed to create a mixed-use neighborhood with housing, retail and office space.

More at
http://www.cleveland.com/weblogs/business/index.ssf?/mtlogs/cleve_business/archives/2006_10.html#194262 (http://www.cleveland.com/weblogs/business/index.ssf?/mtlogs/cleve_business/archives/2006_10.html#194262)
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: MyTwoSense on October 12, 2006, 05:35:21 PM
I wonder if the Shaia family, negotiated behind doors to still build their project, by adding/incorporating it into the wolstein project?  Or did it just go down in flames?
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: CornerCurve on October 12, 2006, 06:45:43 PM
from cleveland.com
   
Parking lot tentatively sold to Flats developer
7 p.m.

Another property owner has reached a tentative sales agreement to make way for Scott Wolstein’s plans to redevelop the east bank of the Flats.

- Sarah Hollander
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: Punch on October 12, 2006, 08:37:09 PM
KJP, or anyone in the know, do you think there is some networking going on between Stark and Wolstien and Zaremba?  It just seems like a lot of retail is being proposed for downtown and I wonder if that causes competition for recognizable retailers.

Speaking of all of the new retail, has anyone heard anything from Forest City in the past 10 years?
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: the pope on October 13, 2006, 07:48:19 AM
^the dollar store wasn't good enough for you?
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: Map Boy on October 13, 2006, 08:06:49 AM
In regard to coordinating retail developments, I'd leave Zaremba out of the conversation.  The Avenue District is a different neighborhood and will be shooting for neighborhood retail, not big anchors like Wolstein & Stark.  Although, if Borders said they wanted to open a store over there, I get the feeling that Zaremba wouldn't push 'em away!  And yes, I hope they're communicating, but in the end, what retailers will see is that there are several major Downtown developments that they can choose to be a part of.  The number of housing units being built will encourage them to choose one, where they may not have even been considering Downtown Cleveland previously. 

This Shaia news is surprising.  I figured they had the best shot in the trial.  And there's was the only one that I really had any mixed feelings about.  I hope they worked something out too, because I would hate to see Wolstein's vision of a parking lot there.  Again, the question of why the development agreement must be set in stone with matters like this is one I don't understand.

Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: 8ShadesofGray on October 13, 2006, 08:19:20 AM
^ I wouldn't be surprised if they offered a much higher bid to Shaia, recognizing that he was probably the most high-profile owners and that, with his semi-salient development plan, he would be most able among them to effectively challenge claims of blight.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: Map Boy on October 13, 2006, 08:26:14 AM
Good point Shades.  We shall see!
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: Punch on October 13, 2006, 01:07:12 PM
^the dollar store wasn't good enough for you?

maybe for my wedding day, otherwise, I tend to shop at the 33 cent store
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: From Heights to Harlem on October 21, 2006, 07:22:41 PM
This is great.  Too much parking, why doesn't someone hype up the Rapid?
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: metrocity on October 21, 2006, 11:10:51 PM
Quote
maybe for my wedding day, otherwise, I tend to shop at the 33 cent store

Just don't buy the canned fish from Mexico
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: smackem81 on October 22, 2006, 05:57:33 PM
^ It was plankton, and it was expired according to the mexican food council.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: musky on October 23, 2006, 11:00:09 AM
This is semi-related as it has to do with Wolstein and might impact the Flats project:
From Crain's:

Quote
DDR plans to acquire 307 centers in $6B deal

By STAN BULLARD

11:35 am, October 23, 2006

Developers Diversified Realty Corp. (NYSE: DDR) plans to hike the size of its shopping center portfolio 37% with the proposed acquisition of Inland Retail Real Estate Trust Inc. of Oak Brook, Ill., in a $6.2 billion transaction.

Beachwood-based Developers Diversified intends to buy all of Inland’s shares for $14 each in the transaction and to assume $2.3 billion in debt, which it expects to repay as it closes the deal.

 More at crainscleveland.com http://www.crainscleveland.com (http://www.crainscleveland.com)
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: Map Boy on November 14, 2006, 10:08:17 AM
Wow, the silence is deadly down here on Old River Road.  What's poppin with this project these days?  I've heard nothing about the legal proceedings...

However, word on the streets is that the development is now showing buildings on Shaia's property.  What type/size is not clear, though.   Apparently, the response to FEB from the office market has been strong, with a fairly large portion coming from outside of the existing Downtown market and the region.

Plans still include anchor tenants in a bookstore, cinema, gym, and grocer, and talks of a school are being floated as well.  Otherwise, the neighborhood commercial retail tenant is the target.

Anyone have more news?
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: KJP on November 14, 2006, 04:12:16 PM
Interesting rumors. If you hear more details, please pass along. You've got my e-mail address (if not, PM me).

It's not so easy for me to go to DDR anymore for info after my reporting on the Shaia/Lighthouse Landing vs. DDR/Flats East Bank squabble. It painted DDR in a bad light, and her honor Nancy Lesic wasn't too happy with me.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: MyTwoSense on November 14, 2006, 05:01:43 PM
Nancy Lesic wasn't too happy with me.

Forget Nancy....We love ya man!!
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: KJP on November 15, 2006, 12:42:36 PM
Thanks bro
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: clvlndr on December 03, 2006, 01:54:40 PM
Discovery was to be closed in late Nov. and trial was to begin in December.  With Shaia now out of the way, and Woltein controlling 73% of the land, Eminent Domain is now against the rag-tag bunch holding the other 27%.  ED would have been easier pre-Norwood, but now there’s very heightened scrutiny when using terms such as “blighted” (private property) or econ development as the means justifying the public taking of private property.  However, one would think the ‘taking’ aspect would be ameliorated since it’s clear these owners are milking the system in fighting for low assessments when the Flats was dead and, now, asking the max.  Wolstein may get from under this by articulating that he offered these guys FMV for their props based on what their most recent assessments -- thus, meaning Norwood, in fact, would not apply.  Also the fact Hustler hustled his club’s improvements through after Wolstein announced should put Larry Flynt on weaker grounds.  It remains to be seen.  I’m surprised by the silence, though.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: Htsguy on December 05, 2006, 09:47:54 PM
Probate Court docket reflects that the "preliminary hearing" scheduled for December 12, 2006 has been continued.  No new date given.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: musky on December 08, 2006, 04:13:52 PM
At class on Wednesday night, we were supposed to have guest speakers in to discuss the project but was told they two speakers were giving a deposition.

Then this comes up today -

From Crain's:

Quote


Wolstein Group seeks permission to raze Flats buildings

By STAN BULLARD

4:45 pm, December 8, 2006

Property acquisition may be incomplete, but Wolstein Group is scheduled to ask Cleveland City Planning Commission at its meeting on Friday, Dec. 15, for permission to demolish eight buildings on Old River Road for its proposed $230 million Flats East Bank project.

A draft agenda circulated today by the city planning staff, says the to-be-flattened structures are on Old River and Main Avenue but noted the staff had not yet obtained individual building addresses from the developer. The agenda notes the developer will also ask for fencing to secure the site.

More at crainscleveland.com http://www.crainscleveland.com (http://www.crainscleveland.com)
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: mrnyc on December 08, 2006, 05:00:28 PM
does anybody else think it would be a good idea if somebody could get down there and take some pics before we lose something? a final east bank photo memento tour?
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: MayDay on December 08, 2006, 05:24:09 PM
I'll dig up some pics later this weekend, but honestly I can only think of maybe one or two buildings that are the least bit remarkable. The structures that used to hold the bars along the river aren't historic for the most part.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: musky on December 08, 2006, 07:17:52 PM
I did a general search on Flicker and found 712 pics, athough most of them ar the typical skyline/lit bridge shots.
There were a few gems hidden within.

http://www.flickr.com/search/?q=cleveland%20flats&w=all (http://www.flickr.com/search/?q=cleveland%20flats&w=all)
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: JDD941 on December 08, 2006, 07:58:14 PM
Mr. Gorbachev..uh...Wolstein..TEAR DOWN THE FLATS!
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: From Heights to Harlem on December 09, 2006, 09:58:30 AM
will this affect the shaker trains?  Will the rapid be changed/updated to accomodate the influx of residents (potential users) and visitors.  Will the construction interfere with the trains?  will they continue to be surface or will it be buried?
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: KJP on December 09, 2006, 06:40:32 PM
No. There are no plans to change the operation of the Waterfront Line. If ridership increases as a result of the FEB's completion several years from now, then RTA will probably consider changes.

None of the construction intrudes on the RTA Waterfront Line's right of way -- although there will probably be a lot of construction vehicles crossing the tracks on Main Avenue. Nothing will be built over the RTA tracks.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: jamiec on December 10, 2006, 09:42:36 AM
Beyond the boardroom
Sunday, December 10, 2006

Q: The Flats project is not a DDR project. It's a Scott Wolstein project. Your critics say that's because the risk is too great for a publicly [fni: no hyphen pls: ]-NT%>traded company. Is that true?

A: It's a Scott and Iris Wolstein project. My mom won't forgive me if I don't tell you that. It was my dad and I, and she's taken over my father's interest.

More at http://www.cleveland.com/business/plaindealer/index.ssf?/base/business/1165743495319330.xml&coll=2 (http://www.cleveland.com/business/plaindealer/index.ssf?/base/business/1165743495319330.xml&coll=2)
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: zaceman on December 10, 2006, 11:03:45 AM
wow 500,000 sq ft??  thats pretty huge, I wonder how big that office building would be
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: From Heights to Harlem on December 10, 2006, 11:27:48 AM
Why don't thy ever say anything about public transportation, its right at their door?   :?

500k square feet?  Thats a big building, I wonder how tall that would be?  This proposed building would definitely change the look and feel of the flats and (potentially) block the view (of the west flats) from people who own homes in its site line.  This in turn makes any building built afterward, that much more desireable - as I would think the view is a top 5 selling point. (or is the view of the East Banks more diserable?)  Luckily there is enough lakefront/riverfront property to develop before its saturated.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: AmrapinVA on December 10, 2006, 02:39:30 PM
Damn....500,000 sq. ft. Isn't that around the size of the old Ameritrust building that is going to get leveled on 9th and Euclid?
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: From Heights to Harlem on December 10, 2006, 04:12:31 PM
Damn....500,000 sq. ft. Isn't that around the size of the old Ameritrust building that is going to get leveled on 9th and Euclid?

I thought I read the powers that be are still trying to decide what to do with that building?  Why tear it down unless its absolutely necessary?  I don't love or hate the building, but I think its a one of a kind gem in Cleveland that shouldn't be lost.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: Map Boy on December 10, 2006, 05:12:47 PM
There's another thread for that conversation...

Somehow, I missed this part of the interview in reading the Wolstein interview online.  Maybe there are two links?

Anyhoo, I'm surprised that there's so much office space being discussed and also that DFAS and Baker Hostetler are in the coversation.  I guess I'll take 'em wherever I can get 'em, but I don't want to spread out the traditional Downtown office core too much.  Then again, if this makes the FEB more feasible... hell, let the market do its thing!

Also, I'm thrilled to hear that Wolstein thinks they can start demo and construction to that significant extent before the e.d. proceedings are through.  That really surprised me!
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: urbanlife on December 10, 2006, 08:35:04 PM
Also, I'm thrilled to hear that Wolstein thinks they can start demo and construction to that significant extent before the e.d. proceedings are through.  That really surprised me!

yeah, i thought they had to redo the street grid and significantly upgrade the sewers, electrical, etc.   i guess the office building #1 would be by the bend in the RTA tracks, so maybe that site is OK, but the residential and other uses?  i'm not sure how that will play out.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: KJP on December 10, 2006, 11:00:55 PM
They do. The demolitions are needed to start putting in the infrastructure for the new street grid. New construction will follow, although some might be possible to do simultaneously. For example, Front Street needs no realignment, and construction on two locations for the office component could start before the other aspects of the project do.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: sooner on December 11, 2006, 08:41:40 AM
The DFAS building was contemplated for the loop in the WFL.  It was 10-12 floors, hardly 500,000.  I can't imagine where a second office building would fit in the original scheme.  KJP, do you know if there has been any significant changes in the original layout....or is Wolstien cooperating with someone else on the second bldg?  perhaps up the hill?
Since developers are usually loathe to talk about potential tenants, I have to believe that these buildings are closer to reality then we know.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: 3231 on December 11, 2006, 08:43:04 AM
The DFAS building was contemplated for the loop in the WFL.  It was 10-12 floors, hardly 500,000.  I can't imagine where a second office building would fit in the original scheme.  KJP, do you know if there has been any significant changes in the original layout....or is Wolstien cooperating with someone else on the second bldg?  perhaps up the hill?
Since developers are usually loathe to talk about potential tenants, I have to believe that these buildings are closer to reality then we know.

hmm.. maybe in Shaia's location.  ;)
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: gotribe on December 11, 2006, 08:46:40 AM
Actually, the footprint of the 10-12 story structure in the renderings could easily be
500,000 sqft.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: sky on December 11, 2006, 10:13:42 AM
The 200 - 300 units of residential could be Shaia's Lighthouse Landing proposal !!
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: KJP on December 11, 2006, 11:50:51 AM
Actually, Wimwar got my reference. I hope that answers Sooner's question, too.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: sooner on December 11, 2006, 02:38:51 PM
That would explain why Shaia sold his property when he was probably in the best position to defend himself from the ED action. 
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: Map Boy on December 11, 2006, 02:56:37 PM
What?  Now I'm lost!  He sold it and now he's going to be the developer?
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: KJP on December 11, 2006, 07:53:51 PM
The Shaia family hasn't sold it yet, but is negotiating to sell it -- with conditions. Since negotiations are continuing, I've resisted writing an article about it, and I don't have all the details yet. But after a phone conversation today with someone who is very close to the situation, I can tell you that Lighthouse Landing is not dead. Furthermore, the placement of one, possibly two office buildings may be different than what's being discussed above. The one is likely to be inside the Waterfront Line's hairpin curve. The other one I'm not sure about, but it sounds like it would be closer to West 9th Street on land that Wolstein doesn't yet own.

Now you know as much as I do about this, so you can see why I'm not ready to write anything about this yet.

Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: w28th on December 11, 2006, 09:50:40 PM
From renderings shown previously, it looks like the office tower will be marooned in the curve of the Waterfront Line in sort of Rockside Road configuration.  It's obviously not set in stone, but it would be a huge missed opportunity to integrate a large piece of office space into the new urban fabric.  I don't really trust Wolstein for some reason (doing suburban strip malls for decades may have something to do with it).
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: KJP on December 12, 2006, 09:23:55 AM
That's one office building...
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: Florida Guy on December 17, 2006, 10:01:19 AM
http://www.cleveland.com/cuyahoga/plaindealer/index.ssf?/base/cuyahoga/1166348507101340.xml&coll=2 (http://www.cleveland.com/cuyahoga/plaindealer/index.ssf?/base/cuyahoga/1166348507101340.xml&coll=2)

Sunday, December 17, 2006
Tom Breckenridge
Plain Dealer Reporter
Developer Scott Wolstein hopes to start razing buildings next month in pursuit of his $230 million project on the Flats east bank.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: jamiec on December 17, 2006, 02:05:57 PM
Quote
Second, I agree that we demolish way too much, and there are a couple of buildings at Wolstein's site that are worth saving. But the ones in question here are mostly godawful. They are wooden shacks built right on the riverbank, and they aren't historic. They're just sleazy, vacant bars.

I agree with blinker (above quote).
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: w28th on December 17, 2006, 03:54:11 PM
The structures are basically suburban restaurant buildings that were built next to the river in the early 1980's.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: MayDay on December 17, 2006, 04:25:33 PM
For visual reference - the only buildings really worth mentioning are two older brick structures:

Almost dead center, below the Main Avenue Bridge:
(http://www.clevelandskyscrapers.com/goodtime/goodtime19.jpg)

And a closer look. Granted they're old but quite frankly they're not terribly remarkable for being old brick warehouse buildings. I'm usually on the side of preservation/re-use, but in this case I don't think there would be any significant loss. As blinker12 and w28th have pointed out, the vast majority of the buildings in question are dumpy 80s shacks:
(http://www.clevelandskyscrapers.com/goodtime/goodtime21.jpg)

Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: DaninDC on December 18, 2006, 09:59:22 AM
Are the brick structures going to be demo'd?  If so, that's just sad.

Do you have any shots of the Old River Road buildings from the street?  I can't say I remember what the fronts look like.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: the pope on December 18, 2006, 10:12:25 AM
^maybe go browse through the main page

NE > Cleveland > Neighborhood > Downtown, scroll down to Flats & Warehouse District
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: musky on December 18, 2006, 11:09:38 AM
I'm all about saving buildings -  but all of them are heaps of crap.
IMO, the only worth saving is Kindlers.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: MayDay on December 18, 2006, 11:35:42 AM
Do my eyes deceive me, or is that ColDayMan running?
(http://urbanohio.com/thepope/BAH/east%20bank/east%20bank0002.jpg)
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: 3231 on December 18, 2006, 11:36:01 AM
I see too much knee-jerk preservationism in this thread.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: the pope on December 18, 2006, 12:30:28 PM
^^sorry, rumors untrue, that is not said Mr. DayMan
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: MayDay on December 18, 2006, 12:31:50 PM
I didn't think so - unless it's Giveaway Day at Hot Sauce Williams, ColDay runs for NO one. :lol:
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: Htsguy on December 18, 2006, 06:36:56 PM
I am interested in seeing what type of legal challenges the property owners can bring to contest the demolition permit approved by the Planning Commission.

Also, I recently checked the court docket (I believe the hearing is now scheduled for sometime in mid Jan. after the December continuance) and observed from court filings that there have been numerous discovery battles.  Without reading the briefs I really cannot determine what they are all about.  The docket reveals that the Probate Court has mostly ruled in favor of the property owners in connection with the various motions.  Don't believe this is a sign of what will happen on the merits.  The lawyers are getting rich though.  God Bless America.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: mrnyc on December 18, 2006, 08:34:28 PM
there are only to buildings there worth saving, and both of those for local historic purposes only not architectural merits. those are kindlers, the oldest bar in cleveland (not counting dunhams tavern) and the original rockefeller warehouse. both of those should be saved and incorporated into wolstein's plans. unfortunately, i see a distinct lack of creativity in this project so far so they'll prob get torn down w/o a care -- unless anyone knows a couple local julia butterfly hill's who would squat in those two buildings to save them? heh.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: DaninDC on December 19, 2006, 10:26:34 AM
Quote
unless anyone knows a couple local julia butterfly hill's who would squat in those two buildings to save them? heh.

I'll be at Kindler's tomorrow, then.  Who's with me?

I know that most of the buildings slated for demolition are not fantastic.  Some of them probably need to go.  Cleveland doesn't have the most illustrious history with preservation, though, and often times, things have a habit of getting demolished with the only new construction being a parking lot.  Frankly, I fear the homogenization of downtown, which is not an unrealistic possibility.

Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: StrapHanger on December 19, 2006, 11:09:52 AM
^ and ^^: my feelings exactly.  I welcome all the new housing but don't have a great deal of confidence in the FEB design (impress me!).  I don't want an empty, decrepit downtown no matter how much character, but I really don't want crocker park (I know, different developer) plopped down and erasing all traces of what was there before. 
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: 3231 on January 15, 2007, 01:18:17 PM
Here are some numbers that I received in December about the project:

455 residential units
280,000 sq ft of retail space
800,000 sq ft of office space
2k parking spaces
2.5 acres of park space

That sure is a lot of office space!!
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: the pope on January 15, 2007, 01:46:38 PM
^well, like otherwise stated on the forum, Class A vacancy downtown is below 10%
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: Map Boy on January 15, 2007, 02:37:14 PM
that's more residential units that I'd previously thought they'd build.  I wonder if the amount of office space will change if they can't lure a major tenant (Baker-Hostetler, for example).  And those 2,000 parking spaces scare the hell outta me.  They'd better find a good way to incoporate them into the design of the place!

Anyone noticed if the demo has begun?
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: From Heights to Harlem on January 15, 2007, 03:02:43 PM
Maybe this has been answered before, but why is there a need for 2k parking spaces?  There is a train stop (possibly two) adjacent to this community, correct?  Yes, there will need to be parking spaces for visiting workers, handicapped, tourist, but to encourage people to use public transportaiton and rebuild faith in the public transportation network, building 2K parking spaces, doesn't build alot of confidence and seems rather a$$ backwards.

I can see one car per unit, but not 2k.  With so many people in the WHD and the Flats, who will need a car? 500 spaces seems more appropriate to me.  Most people who live in the area will work downtown, I do understand that people will need to get to other portions of the city and would like to keep a car.  I thought I read in another thread that there are too many parking lots in downtown cleveland, gateway in particular, that aren't being utilized as is, why build more?
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: 3231 on January 15, 2007, 03:29:00 PM
  And those 2,000 parking spaces scare the hell outta me. 

What are you talking about?? I'd say 5 spaces per unit sounds about right to me. ;)
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: 3231 on January 15, 2007, 03:29:47 PM
Anyone know how many workers would fit into 800,000 sq ft of office space?
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: Boreas on January 15, 2007, 03:42:42 PM
Anyone know how many workers would fit into 800,000 sq ft of office space?
My 400,000 sq ft office building has 1000 employees, so about 2,000.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: X on January 15, 2007, 09:46:09 PM
Anyone know how many workers would fit into 800,000 sq ft of office space?
My 400,000 sq ft office building has 1000 employees, so about 2,000.

That's actually pretty lavish, spacewise.  The standard is anywhere from 1 office worker per 150 sq ft up to about 1 per 400 sq ft.  So anywhere up to 5,000-ish, but probably lower.  So really 2,000 spaces isn't alot for 5,000 workers, 455 units of residential, and 280,000 sq ft of retail.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: 3231 on January 15, 2007, 10:01:50 PM
Anyone know how many workers would fit into 800,000 sq ft of office space?
My 400,000 sq ft office building has 1000 employees, so about 2,000.

That's actually pretty lavish, spacewise.  The standard is anywhere from 1 office worker per 150 sq ft up to about 1 per 400 sq ft.  So anywhere up to 5,000-ish, but probably lower.  So really 2,000 spaces isn't alot for 5,000 workers, 455 units of residential, and 280,000 sq ft of retail.

I'd like to add that my source is second hand. However, that second hand source had put those numbers in print. 
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: KJP on January 15, 2007, 11:24:10 PM
Here are some numbers that I received in December about the project:

455 residential units
280,000 sq ft of retail space
800,000 sq ft of office space
2k parking spaces
2.5 acres of park space

That sure is a lot of office space!!

Sounds to me like Lighthouse Landing has been incorporated into Wolstein's plan. Nancy Lesic (Wolstein's PR guru) told me that the development team hadn't decided whether to make LL office or keep it as two residential towers. Sounds like they're splitting the difference??
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: Map Boy on January 16, 2007, 09:39:58 AM
Let's say there was 1 space for each housing unit:

1 x 455 = 455

Now, parking standards for retail in Cleveland are a bit ridiculous, so let's tone them down a little to 20 spaces for every 10,000 sq. ft:

20 x 28 = 560

Office space?  I don't know, maybe the same ratio (I'm making this up as I go along):

20 x 80 = 1,600

That number represents one space for every 3 workers, if the above space estimates per employee are correct.

That makes a total of 2,615 parking spaces, which is 30% more than they're proposing with the numbers we're seeing here.  I agree that 2,000 sounds like too much, but it is probably far less than they would be permitted to provide or than would be customary for a project built in this city.  So, let's see where they're going to put it and if they can tuck it away somewhere behind townhouses or retail or use it as a buffer from the busy railroad tracks to the north, then it might just be OK. 
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: KJP on February 02, 2007, 10:39:57 PM
Flats property owners are appealing the Planning Commission's Dec. 15 approval of the demolition of their buildings....

http://planning.city.cleveland.oh.us/bza/agenda/crr02-05-07.htm

9:30    Ward 13
Appeal of Flats Waterfront  Associates, et al   
Calendar No. 07-7: Joe Cimperman
 
Flats Waterfront Associates, East Riverfront Properties Limited Partnership, Prime Properties Limited Partnership, 1124 Old River Road Limited Partnership, Cuyahoga Lakefront LLC, K&S Parking Co., Inc., George-Khouri Family Limited Partnership, #1 Media, Old River Road Cleveland LLC, HDV-Cleveland LLC, MSGG-Cleveland LLC, Droe Express System, Inc. and 1146 Old River Road, Inc., by and through their respective counsel, appeal under the authority of Section 76-6(b) of the Charter of the City of Cleveland and Section 329.02(d) of the Cleveland Codified Ordinances from the decision of the City of Cleveland Planning Commission to approve the Flats East Bank Redevelopment Demolition Request rendered on December 15, 2006. (Filed 1-17-07)
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: 3231 on February 02, 2007, 10:54:41 PM
I also heard that the ED proceedings have been pushed back to March.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: Htsguy on February 03, 2007, 09:24:33 AM
^That is what the Probate Court docket indicates.  This is the second trial continuance.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: clvlndr on February 03, 2007, 02:48:08 PM
sucks.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: MyTwoSense on February 04, 2007, 05:21:02 PM
sucks.

What sucks?  The pushback date or the amount of planned parking spaces?!
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: 3231 on February 04, 2007, 05:25:46 PM
I'm seeing again that they are listing 455 unites of housing. This is quite a jump from the original number of 330.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: KJP on February 04, 2007, 10:14:19 PM
(cough -- Lighthouse Landing -- cough). Excuse me, this cold, dry air is really getting to me.  :-D
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: FrqntFlyr on February 04, 2007, 10:23:15 PM
^Cool.

I actually re-read the Lighthouse Landing thread after seeing Wimwar's post earlier today.  I think the original plans were for ~250 units?  But it looks like 125 are being added.  Does this mean only 1 of the 2 Lighthouse Landing towers will be built?  Or only 1 will be residential and the other office?  I suppose that they probably don't want to announce any of this until ED proceedings are over. 
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: w28th on February 05, 2007, 12:32:10 PM
Flats Property Owners Lose Eminent Domain Appeal

POSTED: 12:45 pm EST February 5, 2007
UPDATED: 12:59 pm EST February 5, 2007

CLEVELAND -- There's a new development in the ongoing battle over property in the Flats.

Thirteen owners of bars, restaurants and parking lots have lost another appeal to stop the demolition.

On Monday, city officials said no to stopping eminent domain on the Flat's east bank.

Cuyahoga County Port Authority and builder Scott Wolstein plan to redevelop the area but remaining business owners said they're not being treated fairly and are not getting fair offers for their businesses.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: sky on February 05, 2007, 12:42:56 PM
The Lighthouse Landing plans were really cool!  The way they layed out the project made a lot of sense.  But since that site is very big, I wouldn't be surprised if Wolstein increases the density.  He may want to add more stuff (retail, parking, housing, office) than the Shaia's had planned.  Can't wait to see!!
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: MyTwoSense on February 05, 2007, 09:10:22 PM
The Lighthouse Landing plans were really cool!  The way they layed out the project made a lot of sense.  But since that site is very big, I wouldn't be surprised if Wolstein increases the density.  He may want to add more stuff (retail, parking, housing, office) than the Shaia's had planned.  Can't wait to see!!

why would you want to see MORE parking?  There is a rapid transit line adjacent to this and why do people who live in the center of the city need more parking.  I dont want to hear excuse about those driving in to work, now is the time to condition them to use public transportation.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: Htsguy on February 05, 2007, 10:38:07 PM
That news blurb is very confusing.  I am guessing (and just guessing at this point without having done further research) that what this is referencing is that an administrative appeal by the property owners of the Planning Commission's green light allowing demolition of certain buildings owned by Wolstein has been denied.  This aspect of the  "drama" really has nothing to do with the eminent domain action (which still has not been tried so how can there be an appeal).
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: 3231 on February 06, 2007, 06:51:27 AM
^are you sure. I read it the opposite way.  In December, Wolstein applied for and was granted permission to start demo. These 13 land owners banded together, appealed that decision and lost the appeal yesterday.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: willyboy on February 06, 2007, 07:17:23 AM
To start demo on the land Wolstein already controlled though, which would have nothing to do with the Eminent Domain proceedings, since in December and now, they do not controll the land in question.   
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: Htsguy on February 06, 2007, 11:19:29 AM
Wimwar, I think we are on the same page, I just was not very articulate (which is ironic since I felt the news blurb lacked clarity).  Again I am guessing that the property owners lost the administrative appeal.  They were objecting to the city's permission to allow the demolition of the buildings currently owned by Wolstein.  Since they lost the appeal, Wolstein can begin demolition.  Again my point is that this really does not have anything to do with the eminent domain proceedings which continue to drag on.

I am really not up on the procedure so I am wondering if the property owners can continue to appeal the decision, perhaps to the Common Pleas court.  I know appeals of decisions by state administrative agencies go that route.  Again I am not sure if this is the end of the road (as far as the demolition issue is concerned) or whether the property owners (who have not been shy in doing what ever it takes to pursue their agenda, what ever that may really be...they have to be spending a fortune in legal fees) can still seek review.   My best guess is that they can appeal further but again, not quite sure.  Does anybody know?
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: urbanlife on February 06, 2007, 12:21:01 PM
and the owners in the ED proceedings don't want any buildings torn down b/c ultimatley that hurts their case that this is not a blighted neighborhood, etc.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: 3231 on February 06, 2007, 12:22:26 PM
now that the appeal has been denied, any word on when demo would begin?
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: 3231 on February 06, 2007, 12:41:12 PM
I am really not up on the procedure so I am wondering if the property owners can continue to appeal the decision, perhaps to the Common Pleas court.

Good question. I'm pretty sure that you can take it over to Common Pleas, but is it an appeal as of right?  I'm assuming that they'd need an injunction to stop the demo. I glanced throught civ pro rules, but its hard to pick out the rules for administrative courts.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: jamiec on February 06, 2007, 12:52:17 PM
^ Wow, this would be a great time for the PD to actually follow-up on news!
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: KJP on February 06, 2007, 07:13:08 PM
Or the Sun, which I did earlier today. No demolition permits have been pulled yet. But that should happen VERY soon.

But I found out something much more interesting. Like, the merging of Flats East Bank and Lighthouse Landing. The paperwork should have been signed today, but there were some minor text glitches that needed correcting. So it's safe to safe they are literally dotting the i's and crossing the t's.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: 3231 on February 06, 2007, 07:32:58 PM
That's great news! Great to see that Wolstein saw the value in merging the projects.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: X on February 06, 2007, 08:15:01 PM
I Lighthouse Landing going to be pretty much the same as Shia envisioned, or are there going to be substantial revisions?
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: KJP on February 06, 2007, 08:34:14 PM
According to a second-hand source, Wolstein said he liked the original plan for LL. While the first phase would still be the residential tower, Wolstein will market the second tower to any potential user -- be it residential, office or even hotel. I don't have too many details yet, and probably won't until the paperwork is signed.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: KJP on February 07, 2007, 12:21:54 PM
Heard from Nancy Lesic this morning regarding the demolition work. Crews and equipment should start appearing in the Flats in about a week and start demolitions before the end of February.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: bizbiz on February 07, 2007, 07:53:01 PM
^ Yeah damn right baby! Let the party begin!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: J. Dub on February 07, 2007, 08:15:53 PM
Yes!!!  That's great news KJP, I can't wait to see some progress with this project.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: clvlndr on February 07, 2007, 09:16:12 PM
Best news downtown's had in a while.  I positively love the awesome adaptive reuse work we've been doing in the WHD and in Gateway... But our downtown sorely needs to mix in some new construction, esp high-rises.  I liked Wolstein's original project.  That Lighthouse Landing's high-rises are, now, going to be a part of it, is stunning.

Now, w/ the 1,000 unit, for-sale, expansion to occur across the river at Stonebridge, the Flats is going to rise as though a new city.  I miss, like hell, the old Flats, no doubt and that funky, warehouse, Bourbon Street-by-the-water will be gone forever... But this new, more permanent Flats, with thousands and thousands of new residents (and their friends -- as in, UOers) milling about at restaurants and retail, bodes for a much stronger, healthier Flats of the future.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: KJP on February 07, 2007, 09:46:57 PM
Won't this look pretty next to (er, part of) Flats East Bank?

(http://members.cox.net/kjprendergast/lighthouseperspective2-s.jpg)

Street-level uses (below the towers).....

(http://members.cox.net/kjprendergast/LighthouseSitePlan-s.jpg)
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: Mov2Ohio on February 07, 2007, 09:52:44 PM
^YES!!!!

I think even the sight of all this construction (and the neighborhoods created as a result) will give people that don't have them, more positive feelings about where the city is headed.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: willyboy on February 07, 2007, 10:08:24 PM
Cool..   Thanks for posting KJP.  Havent seen that rendering yet.
Exciting stuff, and really glad to hear it will be incorporated. 
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: KJP on February 07, 2007, 10:16:20 PM
I have some cool quotes in an article in tomorrow's West Side Sun about the merging of the two projects, but the article didn't end up on the front page like I had hoped. Cimperman's quote was the funniest.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: willyboy on February 07, 2007, 10:19:31 PM
I will be coming back to Cleveland tomorrow, so I will be able to pick it up!
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: Mov2Ohio on February 07, 2007, 10:48:18 PM
So right now we don't know if the taller tower will be residential or what is that correct?
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: clvlndr on February 08, 2007, 12:16:55 AM
(LL) While the first phase would still be the residential tower, Wolstein will market the second tower to any potential user -- be it residential, office or even hotel.

I'd love a hotel in one of the towers.  This would enhance the probability of more diverse, spin-off retail in the immediate area.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: KJP on February 08, 2007, 06:16:36 AM
So right now we don't know if the taller tower will be residential or what is that correct?

One of the towers will be residential. Don't know if it's the taller or shorter one yet.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: MyTwoSense on February 08, 2007, 06:36:11 AM
(LL) While the first phase would still be the residential tower, Wolstein will market the second tower to any potential user -- be it residential, office or even hotel.

I'd love a hotel in one of the towers.  This would enhance the probability of more diverse, spin-off retail in the immediate area.

That would be the perfect place for a W Hotel - Cleveland in the Warehouse District!
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: sooner on February 08, 2007, 08:04:41 AM
KJP-just curious, did you kinow about this for quite a while? and is this possibly the 'big' project that has been hinted to you by other sources?
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: KJP on February 08, 2007, 08:31:10 AM
Yes, I've known this was in the works for some time. Cimperman first told me about it in December, so I called Shaia and he confirmed it but asked me not to publish anything yet. He also asked me to call him back in two weeks, which I did. There still wasn't a deal. I called Nancy Lesic to see what Wolstein's development team was willing to say. She said there was a joint development being pursued for the site but there were no specifics yet.

I sat on the story for another month or so. When news of the demolition appeal by 13 Flats property owners was turned down, I called Lesic back to find out when demolition would start. She wasn't in so I left a message. Since I was planning on writing an article about the Flats East Bank anyway, I called Shaia on Tuesday to see if there was anything new on his end. He said the paperwork to close the deal was sent to him earlier that day but there were minor wording issues to resolve. He said the deal could be done in days but couldn't release its details.

Well, since Sun is a weekly and the PD is a daily, and if the paperwork was signed this week, it wouldn't be until next Thursday before I could have anything published on it. The PD might scoop me on a story I've sat on for more than two months.

And, no, this is not the "big" project that's been hinted to me. Turns out there's a couple of downtown projects that are in the hopper. I now know what one of them is -- let's see if anyone here remembers "Gray's Green."
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: willyboy on February 08, 2007, 08:33:46 AM
Well KJP, we'll all remember we heard it first from you here!   
Also "Grays Green"   hmmm something to do with Grays Armory maybe...?
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: Map Boy on February 08, 2007, 11:28:35 AM
Is that article available on line?  I couldn't find it in the Sun section of Cleveland.com...
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: MayDay on February 08, 2007, 11:35:56 AM
Grays Green would have been some sort of project connecting Playhouse Square to Gateway, right?
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: KJP on February 08, 2007, 11:41:56 AM
Also "Grays Green"   hmmm something to do with Grays Armory maybe...?
Grays Green would have been some sort of project connecting Playhouse Square to Gateway, right?

Give those guys see-gars! I probably shouldn't say much more in case the PD or Crain's is reading this. Besides, the Gray's Green discussion belongs in a new thread anyway.

Map Boy killed Mister Good Day? Booo!   :x
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: Map Boy on February 08, 2007, 11:48:02 AM
Ok, so create it!  And let's start digging for the project's history in preparation for its resurrection!

Nice article, BTW.  Joe C  :fight: Shaia

And MGD ain't dead...he's just resting in peace!
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: surfohio on February 12, 2007, 03:05:29 PM
Has there been discussion of height restrictions along the waterfront?

Like most, I love reading about Lighthouse Landing and all of the possibilities for new development. Though I am a little worried that in the future, tall buildings might crowd out and cast shadows all along the lake and river.

In my opinion the best coastal areas restrict heights along the shoreline to approx. 3-4 floors. I am not sure Cleveland should emulate Chicago by building tall straight up to the waters edge-  they have many more beaches and parks than we do. At any rate, lets hope for quality buildings with well thought out planning.

p.s.I would love if Wolstein and others would emulate the distinctly northern/coastal look in these pics:

http://www.theoceanblue.com/jpgs/cds/denmark.jpg

http://www.nbportal.com/travel-destinations/denmark/
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: w28th on February 12, 2007, 03:31:50 PM
Did you simply mean the scale of the structures in those photos?  If so, I agree.  If not...
Please, no more neo classical, fake corniced buildings.  We have plenty of those to go around in the suburbs.  We need progressive ideas to shape the aesthetics of our city.  Europeans wouldn't dare try to replicate those structures on those websites from the above reply.  Why are Americans so obsessed with trying to make things look old.  We certainly wouldn't want to use a computer or an automobile with 19th century technology in our day to day lives, so why would you want our cities and dwellings to appear old?
This city needs to define its point in history now, not fake something from 150 years ago.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: MayDay on February 12, 2007, 03:39:45 PM
^I agree - scalewise, that's probably ideal for the location. However, putting up faux-Colonial, faux-Classical, faux-any historic architecture that's already been done would be a huge mistake.

There's one thing I'd like to see in and around the Flats, should the concrete companies decide to relocate. Rather than demo'ing the silos, they could be reused as awesome (and solid as heck) residential projects. Here's a pic from the Terminal Tower of one such silo:
(http://www.clevelandskyscrapers.com/July30Walk/0730walk8.jpg)


The rounded building in the center is an example of how that could work (from staff on the skyscraperpage.com forum):

(http://img115.imageshack.us/img115/2707/tvillingpy1.jpg)
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: mrnyc on February 12, 2007, 03:45:44 PM
^ those are quite nice and airy. funny what a little variety, glass and making the building white can do to brighten things up. still, these remind me of stonebridge in that there is nothing going on at ground level. we gotta have ground level retail etc action too.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: surfohio on February 12, 2007, 05:11:01 PM
I meant to show the building's, scale wise. I don't think any new architecture should be cheap reminders of classic architecture. But I hope they somehow integrate with the classic, nautical feel of the old Flats. They did an excellent job of this in Fells Point, integrateing old and new.

MayDay I love the silo idea. Though I agree with mrnyc about needing ground level presence. That's killing me with Stonebridge!

I think the very best thing Wolstein can do is open up the lakefront and riverfront with a boardwalk. Since the closing of Euclid Beach Park, Cleveland has been missing that one magnetic place for people to congregate. Imagine thousands of residents and visitors alike walking along a lively waterfront...

http://www.beach-net.com/ImgOCboards.JPEG

Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: KJP on February 12, 2007, 09:46:09 PM
I got your waterfront vision right here... Notice how a number of the waterfront buildings step down toward the park. One can tell a lot of thought went into the building code, or Toronto's planning commission took a lot of care in design review or nearly all of the developers are of the same mind when it comes to carefully designing some very visible buildings.

(http://members.cox.net/kenatsun/Toronto%20waterfront-2.jpg)
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: musky on February 13, 2007, 08:25:16 AM
^ That's amazing. It almost looks like it could be lifted and placed directly on top of Burke and the bluffs to the south.
As for the silo conversion, one only needs to look at Quaker Square to see how it has been done in the past. But I wonder if only having the two would be out of place.

(http://www.photohome.com/pictures/ohio-pictures/akron/quaker-square-1a.jpg)

(http://images.travelnow.com/hotelimages/s/009000/009304A.jpg)
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: w28th on February 13, 2007, 09:11:04 AM
I think the "silo" building in May Day's photos was executed by the Dutch firm MVRDV, the same firm that was in consideration for the CIA addition to the Ford Plant.  Good stuff.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: surfohio on February 13, 2007, 12:04:32 PM
KJP Toronto looks incredible. I'm hoping to make it out there for their film festival....I'm very impressed with their plans to re-establish beaches and wetlands. Hopefully we in Cleveland will be doing that as well someday.

Of course Musky, the former Hilton in Akron!!!

MayDay, what about that huge, wooden, structure thing near Stonebridge, on the west bank of the river? They are renovating buildings like that in Baltimore.

Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: MorningTheft on February 13, 2007, 01:04:17 PM
http://www.theoceanblue.com/jpgs/cds/denmark.jpg

I love that song!
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: MayDay on February 13, 2007, 01:16:02 PM
I loved that group back in the day.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: Map Boy on February 13, 2007, 01:52:12 PM
yes, Toronto looks amazing [sigh]
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: Map Boy on February 23, 2007, 10:09:50 AM
That Copenhagen waterfront is so "untimate."

Any signs of demo?  It's the end of the month!
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: musky on February 23, 2007, 11:39:31 AM
I drove by today.
Nothing but the wind.

Saw this. So maybe really, really soon.

Quote
Port Authority Prevails in Taxpayer Lawsuit
Posted: 2/22/2007

CLEVELAND - Common Pleas Judge Peter J. Corrigan ruled in favor of the Cleveland-Cuyahoga County Port Authority, dismissing a taxpayer lawsuit to stop the acquisition of properties along the East Bank of the Flats.

Cynthia Roether filed a lawsuit against the Port Authority, alleging that the Port Authority abused its powers by filing eminent domain suits to acquire properties necessary for the $230 million-plus redevelopment of the east bank of the Flats.

More at cleveland.com http://www.cleveland.com (http://www.cleveland.com)
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: Map Boy on February 23, 2007, 01:28:48 PM
So, this is one of the eminent domain hearings, but wasn't the demo of wolstein-owned properties supposed to start recently?  I would understand if the weather threw them off a week or so...
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: 3231 on February 23, 2007, 01:44:51 PM
^no, this is separate. The case was dismissed because she failed to state a claim. She argued that the Port's actions are outside of its authority. The law obviously states that the Port does have this authority. Therefore, the case is dismissed before things really heated up in the court room. I'm not sure how this particular case went down, but it could happen like this: plaintiff opens hearings by presenting its claim. Defense responds by motioning to have case dismissed because plaintiff has no legal leg to stand on. Or, this could have happened even before court proceedings had begun.

I'm sure that the landowners will argue the same thing as well as the lady, but the Port may be able to have that claim removed because it has already been decided. Still, the landowners would have some other claims to make. But this probably will shorten the landowners trial a little.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: Mov2Ohio on February 28, 2007, 07:53:50 PM
East bank of the Flats may soon be flattened
Posted by Tom Breckenridge February 28, 2007 19:13PM
Categories: Metro
Much of the Flats east bank along Old River Road -- one-time party central for downtown and the region -- could be flattened soon.

The city has issued demolition permits for eight properties, allowing wrecking crews for developer Scott Wolstein to descend on the familiar-but-vacant properties south of Old River Road, including the former Joe's Crab Shack, Fado Irish Pub, the Beach Club and Dick's Last Resort.

More at http://blog.cleveland.com/earlyedition/2007/02/east_bank_of_the_flats_may_soo.html (http://blog.cleveland.com/earlyedition/2007/02/east_bank_of_the_flats_may_soo.html)
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: cle2032 on February 28, 2007, 08:00:41 PM
Can we demolish these owners too?  Honestly, push them into the river! :shoot:
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: musky on February 28, 2007, 08:08:03 PM
So what are the rest of the properties?
I count five in this article. I'm guessing most of the properties along the river except for the old Basement (whatever it is called now).

Quote

To protect existing businesses, the city is requiring Wolstein's demolition crews to erect an 8-foot-high fence along Old River

Is this going to be a world class fence?

(http://img116.exs.cx/img116/1231/z7shysterical.gif)
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: jamiec on February 28, 2007, 08:16:50 PM
Quote
Holdout property owners also fear demolition will kill businesses that remain in the area, such as Heaven & Earth night club and Larry Flynt's Hustler strip club, north of Old River.

This is the most unintentionally hilarious line ever.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: KJP on February 28, 2007, 09:19:34 PM
It certainly ranks right up there. Trailing right behind it is:

Quote
Demolition would leave a "destitute, barren piece of land, and that has a substantial, negative impact on how the jury views the land value" of nearby properties, Phillips said.

Um, it already is a destitute, barren piece of land. Apparently Phillips hasn't been to the Flats East Bank in about 10 years. Ranking a close third in the "Brain's not connected to the mouth" category is this one:

Quote
Lawyer Gerald Phillips charged Wednesday that Wolstein wants to tear his buildings down to lower the value of holdout properties.

I think Wolstein wants to tear down the buildings on the land he owns because I heard a rumor that he supposedly wants to build something else where they stand. I think that's how the rumor went...
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: Matches on February 28, 2007, 10:12:13 PM
Quote


Is this going to be a world class fence?

(http://img116.exs.cx/img116/1231/z7shysterical.gif)

Let me tell you, until the buildings actually go up, the absolute best thing that the Avenue District Project has done is be the genesis of the "World Class Signage/Fencing" bit, which honestly gets me giggling every time.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: musky on March 01, 2007, 09:28:55 AM
So what are the rest of the properties?
I count five in this article. I'm guessing most of the properties along the river except for the old Basement (whatever it is called now).

Quote

To protect existing businesses, the city is requiring Wolstein's demolition crews to erect an 8-foot-high fence along Old River

Is this going to be a world class fence?

(http://img116.exs.cx/img116/1231/z7shysterical.gif)


PD had a map with the 8 properties on it.
Doesn't look like Fagan's is on the list yet. I'm surprised it hasn't been burned down yet.

Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: sky on March 01, 2007, 09:57:54 AM
It's too bad that they can't keep Amsterdam up.  That building is really nice!
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: Mov2Ohio on March 01, 2007, 01:54:03 PM
So when will we be seeing steel frames rising? Late summer, fall, next spring?
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: KJP on March 01, 2007, 02:01:28 PM
Fagan's is owned by Russ Khouri and Jim Kassouf (as are the parking lots north of Front). They are among those fighting the port authority.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: 3231 on March 01, 2007, 02:02:28 PM
If and when the ED hearings come out in favor of Wolstein, I've heard that they need to do extensive sewer work ( up to a year??) before they can do any construction in the area.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: KJP on March 01, 2007, 02:03:33 PM
Yep, including construction of a sewage pumping station to get the crap out of the valley.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: MayDay on March 01, 2007, 02:03:57 PM
"Fagan's is owned by Russ Khouri and Jim Kassouf (as are the parking lots north of Front). They are among those fighting the port authority."

The same people who wanted to put a Microtel on the Davenport Bluffs a few years ago?
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: KJP on March 01, 2007, 02:04:27 PM
The same!
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: w28th on March 01, 2007, 02:51:21 PM
Kassauff is certainly on the list of Clevelanders who are a barrier to progress.  Isn't he responsible for the development for the FBI building and Channel 3?  What a piece of S**t.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: Robclevoh on March 01, 2007, 03:45:03 PM
CLEVELAND -- A wrecking crew took down Joe's Crab Shack in the flats today.


http://www.wkyc.com/news/news_article.aspx?storyid=63817
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: musky on March 01, 2007, 06:57:53 PM
Whoo Hooo!

(http://jannisforum.foren-city.de/images/smiles/disco.gif)
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: jamiec on March 01, 2007, 07:02:40 PM
^^ haha, that's hilarious
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: MuRrAy HiLL on March 01, 2007, 07:53:49 PM
Keep knocking'em down!!
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: audidave on March 01, 2007, 11:17:54 PM
So wouldn't this be kind of a shot being fired over Kassouf's bow with Wolstein knocking down the building closest to Fagans?   I don't have any sympathy for owners that are just sitting on the properties not using them.  I realize I'm in the minority about the other owners that are running businesses down there that he shouldn't be allowed to rip down the whole East Bank until everything is settled.   

 I think it would be cool if he'd knock down only half of the East Bank and keep the better buildings to keep some of the feel of the old flats.  I realize he wants a clean slate to deal with as I think all developers seem to.  I'll personally be a little sad when he knocks down Fado's and Dick's last resort.. good memories and decent enough buildings...
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: Vulpster03 on March 02, 2007, 02:51:21 AM
^ Wolstein's plan does in fact only demolish half of the building on the East Bank. People seem to forget about the strip of buildings on Old River Road on the other side of the Main Avenue Bridge that aren't part of his plan, and will remain in tact. And this strip of buildings is probably worth saving more than the others (in my opinion).
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: clvlndr on March 03, 2007, 01:45:39 PM
^If you're talking about the Arhaus/(new) Watermark block, I agree... But stuff like the vacant Odeon, the hideous old Hooters building and that club at the old Kaos could kiss the wrecking ball for all I care, it's junk occupying key lots.  I'm not in love with BW3, accept that it does draw considerable biz and is reasonably fun place -- so it can stay... Wolstein's development could meet rejuvenated building south of the MAB and supplement the handsome residential buildings (Crittendon towers; River Bend; the townhouses).

btw, Jane's plan called for the ugly Main Ave Bridge to be torn down in the Lakefront project, which seems to be closer to fruition west of the river -- any idea how soon that can happen?... It certainly would open up both sides of the Flats and get rid of all the shadows.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: zaceman on March 03, 2007, 02:39:27 PM
i personally like how that bridge looks from pedestrian level in the flats. 
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: w28th on March 03, 2007, 04:38:20 PM
I don't think tearing down the Main Avenue Bridge has ever been an option.  That would kind of make the new Lakefront Boulevard project by ODOT totally pointless.  Also, I hope you are being sarcastic about tearing down bridges in the Flats?  The bridges are some of the city's most interesting structures, why the hell would you want to demolish them?
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: gotribe on March 03, 2007, 06:00:42 PM
^It wasn't.  In fact, it was just re-built in the past 12 or so years.  I don't know what bridge that could be in reference to. 
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: From Heights to Harlem on March 03, 2007, 06:12:31 PM
The bridge is really nice, I love driving from the Westside looking at downtown.  Its really cool.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: 3231 on March 03, 2007, 06:28:19 PM
Driving over the Main Ave. Bridge provides the best entrance into downtown, imho.  I was driving my wife and a suburban friend into the WHD last weekend. When we were over the Flats, the friend said "wow, our city looks really nice".
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: Punch on March 03, 2007, 10:51:56 PM
There has been some consideration of reconfiguring the east end of the bridge.  This is detailed in the Pesht thread.  Right now, the east end of the bridge doesn't mesh very well with the Warehouse district.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: StrapHanger on March 04, 2007, 11:08:18 AM
^True dat.  The west side of the bridge doesn't exactly mesh so well with its part of town either.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: sky on March 04, 2007, 12:46:07 PM
There has been talk of lowering the eastern end of the bridge so that it touches down on West 9th (instead of West 6th).
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: clvlndr on March 04, 2007, 01:34:56 PM
Let me be clear: I don't hate the Main Ave bridge.  In fact, when the Flats thrived in its, er, recent, prior life, one could argue the big blue, girder-ed bridge added a certain urban romance to the waterfront... but that's gone now, as is the old concept of the Flats.  I hate we let it slide, but we've got to let it go.  The new Flats to some, myself included, will be, comparatively, more sterile; more processed and more like what you see in other thriving waterfront towns... In other words, it won't be as uniquely Cleveland as it used to be, and I say that knowing that, yes, there were a bunch of chains and, often, fly-by-night operations down there...

... But the new, Wolstein version, esp with such things as the Lighthouse Landing towers, promises to be much more solid, lasting and 24-7, as it will have a solid, high-density base of residents LIVING THERE and not just weekend warriors from Westlake, Strongsville, Mayfield and the like.... I thought the WCPN discussion, posted here a year or so ago, stated that in the current incarnation of Flats planning (including Price/Corna and, perhaps, Jacobs planning on the West Bank), the bridge was to come down to clear land for development, with West (ex-Shoreway) "boulevard" drivers being routed elsewhere -- Detroit-Superior, I thought, but I'm certainly not the Gospel on such things.

If that's truly the case, I'm for moving on and getting rid of the thing for, really, it would serve no real useful purpose -- maybe, what you guys are mentioning, is a plan to keep the bridge but having it terminate into the WHD while the eastern Shoreway would end at E. 9th (as a freeway, at least) continuing a level route to W. 3rd... I'm not wedded to either proposal accept I'm all for ending the current version of the West Shoreway as the car/truck commuter route it now is... If we can, for once, turn the tables and kill at least one local freeway feeding into downtown Cleveland -- and maybe convert 1 or 2 people to transit commuting -- I am 4-square for it!!!!
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: w28th on March 04, 2007, 02:18:52 PM
...regardless, the bridge isn't and shouldn't come down.  You are thinking of the part of the bridge that goes over W6th.  That may very well come down (it would help Stark's plans for sure), but it's a different structure than the main bridge component that physically crosses the river.
Yeah, the Flats will be more sterile, and that's not a good thing.  Your idea of wanting the bridge torn down would push it even further into sterility.  You're contradicting yourself.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: mrnyc on March 04, 2007, 03:03:35 PM
so how many times did you all play that video of joes crap shack getting knocked down? im up to 4 -- woo hoo!
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: Map Boy on March 05, 2007, 11:58:50 AM
Fado was in shambles last night, too.  I was down there around 6:00 pm and there were quite a few people around...mostly going to the naughty bar.  I hadn't been on ORR in a while and was reminded that there are a few nice 4-story brick buildings on the east side of the street.  Didn't we have a photo thread on here somewhere that took us through the buildings?  I can't find it...
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: Punch on March 05, 2007, 05:24:58 PM
^where is the video?
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: Htsguy on March 07, 2007, 06:58:53 PM
I note from the court docket that some of the property owner defendants have filed a motion for summary judgment and even more troublesome a motion to convert the March 26 trial  date into oral arguments on the motion for summary judgment.  As I don't believe the court would grant summary judgment in a million years (a first year law student could raise a question of fact resulting in the denial of such a motion), if the companion motion to convert is granted all this will end up doing is delay the trial even more (I believe the trial date has now been continued at least 3 times so this may be a 4th), perhaps into summer.

I also cannot believe all the money the property owner defendants must be spending in connection with this case.  The have filed almost 40 deposition transcripts with the court.  Even if they were just average length transcripts (and I am sure they are not with all the attorneys involved), you are probably looking at almost $40,000.00 in costs just to have the depositions transcribed.  Throw in another $20,000.00 (probably more) for the attendance of the court reporter at the depositions and for the preparation and service of subpoenas.  Now throw in attorney time.  I would guess attorney time for just ONE of the defendants (and of course each defendant will have representation at each of the depositions so multiple by the number of defendants) for depo prep and attendance at all these depositions at close to 100,000.  Also note that this is attorney fees for just one aspect of the case, taking the depositions.  They are also incurring fees for everything from taking phone calls, to conducting legal research to writing memos and briefs and court appearance among many other things.  I would guess from the docket that just one property owner defendant has incurred fees and cost to date of close to 300,000 (may be on the low side especially since they all had to hire real estate experts to testify at trial as to valuation) and they still have not had a trial (where you really start running up the fees).  They really must think they have a great case.  All  I can think is that if they lose the first part of the trial and go to valuation, they have blown any $$ they might have realized by securing a judgment in excess of the settlement offers.  Does any one know if you can recover attorney fees if you win the first part (I mean the property owners).  I would imagine there is a provision in the statute that allows for this or they would not be spending this kind of money.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: 3231 on March 07, 2007, 08:09:35 PM
Why would you think that they have a great case? I'm guessing that they are doing all this work just to try to scare Wolstein into settling at a much higher rate.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: Htsguy on March 07, 2007, 09:33:42 PM
^I didn't say I thought the property owners had a great case.  In fact, without knowing all the facts as uncovered in discovery I would have absolutely no idea.  I said the property owners in "their own minds" must think they have a good case or they would not be spending so much $$ on attorney fees.  That or their attorneys are really leading them around by their noses.  Plus if they are trying to scare Wolstein to settle at a higher amount, whatever they get in settlement at this higher amount will probably go to their attorneys since they incurred so much in fees.  Even if Wolstein decides to over pay he is not going to pay an unreasonable price.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: 3231 on March 07, 2007, 10:01:40 PM
^sorry. I misread your intonation.


Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: Oldmanladyluck on March 08, 2007, 09:46:31 PM
Whatever the case may be with the current property owners, the more time it takes to go through the eminent domain process, the more it costs Wolstein in the end, since he more than likely had to take out construction loans for the project.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: surfohio on March 08, 2007, 10:02:02 PM
Just for the record, the front door to Max and Erma's is wide open.  There's a large, industrial size stainless steel sink right inside.

Also, I have to add the the J.J. Shepard building (The old Basement) will be a great loss. That is one cool building. I wish they could plan around it. I don't know much about the building's history, but here's an old ad I found:

http://www.hhpl.on.ca/GreatLakes/scripts/Page.asp?PageID=3052
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: smith on March 13, 2007, 11:28:48 AM
Was a blight study done for this project?  If so, is it public?  Does anyone know where I can get a copy of it?

Thanks!
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: Htsguy on March 13, 2007, 01:12:13 PM
I believe the city of Cleveland did the blight study a number of years ago for that portion of the Flats and I am sure you can get it at City Hall (what dept.???) as it is a public record.  The whole thing or portions of it maybe kicking around in the Probate litigation file as it may have been made part of the record in connection with the motion for summary judgment which was filed.  I am sure that file itself is huge and not well organized.  You will find it at the Old County Courthouse where the Probate Court is located.  I doubt the file is in the file room.  It is probably in the judges chambers since the trial is so close and so much have been going on lately.  Best bet would be city hall.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: Htsguy on March 13, 2007, 01:51:47 PM
Some minor good news.  It appears from the court docket that the court decided, rather than convert the trial date into oral arguments relating to the motion for summary judgment, to hold a hearing on the motion on March 21, 2007.  As such, it looks as though the March 26, 2007 trial date is still a go, at least for now.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: gavster on March 13, 2007, 10:38:09 PM
the port and wolstein are down to 3 holdout landowners with a fourth close to settling
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: Htsguy on March 13, 2007, 10:53:27 PM
Great news.  Do you know which parcel?
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: gavster on March 13, 2007, 11:38:16 PM
nope...thats all i got
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: KJP on March 18, 2007, 08:00:59 AM
Interest high in Flats' eminent domain case
Foes to challenge economic benefit
Sunday, March 18, 2007
Tom Breckenridge
Plain Dealer Reporter

The $230 million Flats East Bank Neighborhood development is either illegally taking land to benefit a favored developer, or it is a laudable plan for a blighted neighborhood.

Those are the sides staked out in Cuyahoga County Probate Court, where the local port authority, working with developer Scott Wolstein and the city of Cleveland, is wielding eminent domain to take nine properties at prices that the owners say are unfair.

More at http://www.cleveland.com/news/plaindealer/index.ssf?/base/cuyahoga/1174208085212470.xml&coll=2 (http://www.cleveland.com/news/plaindealer/index.ssf?/base/cuyahoga/1174208085212470.xml&coll=2)
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: KJP on March 18, 2007, 08:11:31 AM
Someone forgot to mention the nuisance argument. Certain property owners in the Flats repeatedly failed to control their customers. Their failure to maintain control created an atmosphere of unruliness in the Flats where drunkeness, fights, drownings and even murders became all too familiar occurrences. Their negligence caused the city to incur higher costs to its safety, service and law departments. And, it drove away responsible businesses and customers, affecting property values and income tax revenues.

The only option left is forcibly remove the nuisance and redevelop the site with a calmer mix of uses. I hope the port authority makes that argument.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: Htsguy on March 18, 2007, 09:45:55 AM
I wish the article would have identified which landowner recently settled as mentioned above.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: musky on March 18, 2007, 11:43:02 AM
Is the fact that many of the landowners had for years sought to have their land devalued in order to have their taxes lowered?


Quote
For land held by Droe, including the Beach Club on Old River Road, the port started at $1 million and eventually raised its offer to $1.7 million.
Droe countered at $5 million and dropped to $3.5 million. At one point, Droe threatened to have an appraiser arrested if he came back to the property, according to the port.
Droe said an appraiser visited without first notifying him, and he didn't want it to happen again.
"My offer is back to $5 million," Droe said Friday.


I'm confused about this part. I drove through the area on Friday and half of the Beach Club was already in blight heaven.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: surfohio on March 18, 2007, 12:18:57 PM
Amazing that the appraiser just happened to work for Wolstein. As much as I want to see the Flats become a vibrant waterfront community, there's something about this whole thing that doesn't sit well with me.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: clvlndr on March 18, 2007, 01:58:10 PM
Someone forgot to mention the nuisance argument. Certain property owners in the Flats repeatedly failed to control their customers. Their failure to maintain control created an atmosphere of unruliness in the Flats where drunkenness, fights, drownings and even murders became all too familiar occurrences. Their negligence caused the city to incur higher costs to its safety, service and law departments. And, it drove away responsible businesses and customers, affecting property values and income tax revenues.

The only option left is forcibly remove the nuisance and redevelop the site with a calmer mix of uses. I hope the port authority makes that argument.

As deplorable as the oft-illegal behavior these owners allowed on their properties, I'm not sure nuisance, per se, would be a factor in an ED case like this which hinges on blight and its definition under Cleveland's statutory law which, quite predictably, the plaintiff owners claim is "vague" and, thus, unconstitutional as not putting them adequately on notice of what does, or does not, subject their properties to potential ED.  While, no question, the uses, legal or illegal, play a part in blight, it would be hard to argue that bar onwers serving liquor underaged teens, or at worst turning their heads on illegal drug activities, would alone make such high-visibility property "blighted" -- even though the end result: largely vacant properties that now remain, certainly would. .. It may come down to a reasonableness, case-by-case standard where, perhaps, a sympathy (for the plaintiffs) comes into play... In the Norwood case, blue-collar homeowners were ticketed to lose their homes because of vague, empty definition of a "blighted area" in a case where, clearly, the city was in bed with the developer to strong-arm these innocents out of their decent neighborhood to the obvious financial benefit of the wealthy developer... It'll be very hard, indeed, to generate this kind of sympathy for these Flats owners: not only are these properties nonresidential, these owners clearly are on record as down-valuing their properties to get tax advantages: essentially, "blighting" their properties, voluntarily.  Droe's actions, alone, support this and since when does a property owner have the right to receive notice to have his property appraised; what, does he want to have a heads up to destroy contraband?... Still, I have the uneasy feeling that if Corrigan, predictably, rules against these 9 owners, they will appeal based on their belief Norwood was unconstitutionally narrowed.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: clvlndr on March 18, 2007, 02:18:06 PM
Amazing that the appraiser just happened to work for Wolstein. As much as I want to see the Flats become a vibrant waterfront community, there's something about this whole thing that doesn't sit well with me.

Such a cozy relationship doesn't seem to pass the smell test... It would be a shame if Wolstein loses based on such overzealousness because, certainly, he has a much stronger case for use of these properties than these sleaze owners who could care less about positive development and are sitting on dump properties merely looking to "get paid."
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: glutmax on March 18, 2007, 04:13:24 PM
^^
"In the Norwood case, blue-collar homeowners were ticketed to lose their homes because of vague, empty definition of a "blighted area" in a case where, clearly, the city was in bed with the developer to strong-arm these innocents out of their decent neighborhood to the obvious financial benefit of the wealthy developer"

EXACTLY, in Norwood the city was basically taking away well-maintained residential properties from relatively non-affluent persons to provide a place for affluent persons in a neighboring community (Hyde Park) to do their shopping.  The FEB is commercial/industrial that is 1) becoming primarily abandoned, 2) becoming more dangerous do to abandonment/illegal activities/and clientele at the remaining businesses, 3) located in a prime area for redevelopment for the city as far as parks/marina/civic activites are concerned.  I think the park and marina may make the difference as far as the Ohio court system goes, as this will provide a modicum of "public good/interest" for the city.

In the future, look for OH's municipalities to make extensive improvements in the specifics of their eminent domain laws to defend themselves from the "vaguity" accusations that seem to have swayed the OH supreme court. 
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: 3231 on March 18, 2007, 05:33:06 PM
Amazing that the appraiser just happened to work for Wolstein. As much as I want to see the Flats become a vibrant waterfront community, there's something about this whole thing that doesn't sit well with me.

I'd have more sympathy if the hold-outs weren't the likes of Tony George.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: CH Jake on March 18, 2007, 05:47:43 PM
The "holdouts" have been complaining about the valuations of their properties and the way negotiations were conducted.  If the same appraiser first said that their property values were high, and then came back later and said his valuations were off by half, my first instinct is that something stinks.  What changed since the first valuation? 

I don't know what Mr. Droe's property is worth or whether his asking price is reasonable.  It is a functioning business, however, with an ongoing revenue stream.  That at least gives him a leg to stand on that his property is not blighted.  Even if he loses the trial, he can appeal the eminent domain decision and appeal the valuation ultimately set by the court.  Meanwhile, we will all pay the lawyers and the project will be slowed down, construction costs will rise, and tax revenues won't be increasing any time soon.  In view of all that, I hope the Port Authority considers offering something closer to the original valuations for these properties to move the project along. 
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: KJP on March 18, 2007, 05:48:21 PM
Amazing that the appraiser just happened to work for Wolstein. As much as I want to see the Flats become a vibrant waterfront community, there's something about this whole thing that doesn't sit well with me.

Who else did the appraiser work for? If he worked exclusively, or almost exclusively for Wolstein, then it wouldn't pass the smell test. But if the appraiser worked for many different clients, especially developers, then this is merely an attempt by the Flats property owners to conjure the appearance of impropriety.

And, if anyone doesn't pass the smell test, it's Tony George.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: musky on March 18, 2007, 06:02:24 PM
At what point in the process is the decision made whether or not Norwood can be used as an argument for the current landowners? My thinking, and I'm no legal expert, but Norwood dealt specifically with residential takings, so that case should not have any bearing on this one.

Or am I completely looking at this the wrong way?
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: Mov2Ohio on March 18, 2007, 08:59:39 PM
The Flats are starting to live up to their name!!! :-D


(http://img295.imageshack.us/img295/1903/sb07037ed6.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)

(http://img244.imageshack.us/img244/728/sb07039df6.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)

(http://img244.imageshack.us/img244/7540/sb07040jq2.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)

(http://img87.imageshack.us/img87/5629/sb07038tl0.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: musky on March 18, 2007, 10:05:57 PM
Wow, they got a lot done since Friday when I was down there.


The empty spot in the second picture is where the Beach Club used to be....


Quote
For land held by Droe, including the Beach Club on Old River Road, the port started at $1 million and eventually raised its offer to $1.7 million.
Droe countered at $5 million and dropped to $3.5 million. At one point, Droe threatened to have an appraiser arrested if he came back to the property, according to the port.
Droe said an appraiser visited without first notifying him, and he didn't want it to happen again.
"My offer is back to $5 million," Droe said Friday.


I'm confused about this part. I drove through the area on Friday and half of the Beach Club was already in blight heaven.


My confusion on this still stands.
Anybody want to clear this up for me?
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: twok2lcdcnc on March 19, 2007, 05:22:24 PM

For land held by Droe, including the Beach Club on Old River Road, the port started at $1 million and eventually raised its offer to $1.7 million.

Droe countered at $5 million and dropped to $3.5 million. At one point, Droe threatened to have an appraiser arrested if he came back to the property, according to the port.

Droe said an appraiser visited without first notifying him, and he didn't want it to happen again.

"My offer is back to $5 million," Droe said Friday.


Uh... yeah... I'm pretty new to all of this stuff... but I'm also pretty sure when somebody is trying to take your property by eminent domain, being hard headed and arrogant probably isn't the best approach.

I look forward to the flats being a desireable destination again someday. People with an attitude like that shouldn't be any part of it.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: Htsguy on March 19, 2007, 06:49:52 PM
Any property owner who simply argues that he is fighting ed due to the fact that he has not been offered enough money or Wolstein and/or the port is not negotiating in good faith lacks a lot of credibility in my mind.  If this was the ONLY issue why fight ed (the first step of the process where the court determines whether there are grounds for a taking in the first place).  Save everybody alot of time and money (including your own...attorney fees must be going through the roof), let everybody hire their experts and go to the valuation stage as quickly as possible.  If you are SO right with your numbers then you will make a lot of money quickly.  It is clear the owners have ulterior motives.  Probably want to keep their property so that if the development goes forward they can either demand a huge price due to the "changed and enhanced neighborhood" or simply run their business without putting much money into their properties and take advantage of the gleaming facility next door.  Like many of the posters, and for the reasons given above, I have little sympathy for these guys (especially Kassouf) and hoped they get hosed.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: surfohio on March 19, 2007, 09:36:30 PM
I've met the guy who owns Heaven and Earth. I honestly feel bad for that guy.  Though it's not my kind of place, he put a lot of money into it and hoped that the neighborhood would eventually come back around.

My study of law and experience has left me with the impression that, for better or for worse, laws are mostly created and construed to the benefit of the powerful.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: Florida Guy on March 20, 2007, 08:30:30 AM
^ I would agree but what about when the law benefits the powerful to contribute to the greater good of the community?
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: Htsguy on March 20, 2007, 09:28:17 AM
Let's keep in mind that the "powerful" Wolstein is taking a huge risk in the Flats and is putting his money where his mouth unlike many other large developers in town (Forest City to name one).  It is true he is receiving government subsidies for infrastructure and the like (what developer now a days does not receive such perks) and lots of cooperation from the bureaucracy, but the odds are very good that he could lose much of his investment on this project.  It would be lot easier for him to take his millions and develop some virgin land in Medina County or even more likely some fast growing county in the Sun Belt.  Hell if I were him I would just find some safe investment fund and go play golf.  I wouldn't bore you with all the potential pitfalls of this project (which a smart businessman can foresee) but the retail component is probably the biggest risk. 

I don't think government officials are working with Wolstein because of his "power" but because they are just thankful somebody is finally interested in correcting the mess that the East Bank of the Flats has become.  And for Wolstein, why go through this aggravation.  Because I truly believe he wants to do something positive for his home town.  For all his dad's arrogance, the family is know for this as many of our institutions will attest (from Cleveland State to the simply ball field next door to my house in Cleveland Hts.)  Now lets just start building and argue about the architecture.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: gotribe on March 20, 2007, 09:38:43 AM
Are there developments similar to this one in cities similar to Cleveland (Milwaukee, KC, STL etc) that have proven to work?  Just curious.  Because as stated above, I have wondered what makes Wolstien think this can pay off.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: 3231 on March 20, 2007, 09:43:07 AM
They think that the unique local (located next to the water and all the bridges) will provide some great spaces and places.  They are very confident about it. After seeing their presentation, I'm sold.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: X on March 20, 2007, 01:59:22 PM
Is there anything in the presentation that we haven't seen yet (that you can tell us about)?
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: 3231 on March 20, 2007, 02:13:17 PM
Its been a while since the presentation. I posted some of the things that I remembered on this thread a while back.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: musky on March 20, 2007, 09:10:21 PM

For land held by Droe, including the Beach Club on Old River Road, the port started at $1 million and eventually raised its offer to $1.7 million.

Droe countered at $5 million and dropped to $3.5 million. At one point, Droe threatened to have an appraiser arrested if he came back to the property, according to the port.

Droe said an appraiser visited without first notifying him, and he didn't want it to happen again.

"My offer is back to $5 million," Droe said Friday.


Uh... yeah... I'm pretty new to all of this stuff... but I'm also pretty sure when somebody is trying to take your property by eminent domain, being hard headed and arrogant probably isn't the best approach.

I look forward to the flats being a desireable destination again someday. People with an attitude like that shouldn't be any part of it.







The empty spot in the second picture is where the Beach Club used to be....


Quote
For land held by Droe, including the Beach Club on Old River Road, the port started at $1 million and eventually raised its offer to $1.7 million.
Droe countered at $5 million and dropped to $3.5 million. At one point, Droe threatened to have an appraiser arrested if he came back to the property, according to the port.
Droe said an appraiser visited without first notifying him, and he didn't want it to happen again.
"My offer is back to $5 million," Droe said Friday.


I'm confused about this part. I drove through the area on Friday and half of the Beach Club was already in blight heaven.


My confusion on this still stands.
Anybody want to clear this up for me?



HELLO?
Is this mic on?


Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: gavster on March 20, 2007, 09:40:24 PM
i remember reading somewhere...maybe a couple weeks ago that the owner of the beach club sold. i think the PD's info is outdated. i heard firsthand from a port board member last week that only four owners were left to settle and he seemed pretty optimistic that they would be settled before this goes any further through the courts
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: musky on March 20, 2007, 09:58:43 PM
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v167/TruckGuy74/GIFs/elvis.gif)

Thank you very much.
I thought I was in the DaninDC doghouse for a minute there.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: MyTwoSense on March 20, 2007, 10:11:23 PM
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v167/TruckGuy74/GIFs/elvis.gif)

Thank you very much.
I thought I was in the DaninDC doghouse for a minute there.

Musky...Elvis?   lawd...................... first the ambiguously gay duo avatar, now an Elvis smiillie thingie.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: musky on March 20, 2007, 10:15:42 PM
Just avoiding a major photoshop project I should be working on - but my third IPA is keeping me from being focused.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: Htsguy on March 21, 2007, 04:22:53 PM
Just great.  The appropriation preliminary hearing scheduled for March 26, 2007 has been rescheduled AGAIN (I think this is something like the 4th time) according to the court docket.  It appears oral arguments on the motion for summary judgment were held today.  I hope this means that the parties are entering into serious settlement discussions as suggested above but I am not counting on it.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: Boreas on March 21, 2007, 05:32:25 PM
Senator Timothy Grendell is going to apply his philosophy to eminent-domain in Ohio.  I think this is a subterfuge to use "feel good" language to push his other agenda(s).  Thought this fit in here.  Could move it, I suppose

Eminent domain limits sought

By STEPHEN ORAVECZ Tribune Chronicle

COLUMBUS — Legislation in the state Legislature could put limits on Warren’s plans to aggressively use eminent domain to acquire blighted property for downtown commercial development....SNIP...
Cafaro said she agrees with Grendell that eminent domain laws should apply uniformly through Ohio, but she wants to make sure the final bill is fair to cities such as Warren that need it for redevelopment.
soravecz@tribune-chronicle.com
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: 3231 on March 21, 2007, 06:43:12 PM
Just great.  The appropriation preliminary hearing scheduled for March 26, 2007 has been rescheduled AGAIN (I think this is something like the 4th time) according to the court docket.  It appears oral arguments on the motion for summary judgment were held today.  I hope this means that the parties are entering into serious settlement discussions as suggested above but I am not counting on it.

Who motioned for summary judgment--Wolstein or the landowners?
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: Htsguy on March 21, 2007, 07:23:32 PM
^2 property holders filed motions for summary judgment and the Port (Wolstein) filed a partial motion for summary judgment regarding the "issue of inability to agree pursuant to ORC 163.04"
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: KJP on March 21, 2007, 08:06:27 PM
Senator Timothy Grendell is going to apply his philosophy to eminent-domain in Ohio.  I think this is a subterfuge to use "feel good" language to push his other agenda(s).  Thought this fit in here.  Could move it, I suppose

This might be a good thread for that....

http://www.urbanohio.com/forum2/index.php?topic=3921.0
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: Boreas on March 22, 2007, 06:07:03 AM
Senator Timothy Grendell is going to apply his philosophy to eminent-domain in Ohio.  I think this is a subterfuge to use "feel good" language to push his other agenda(s).  Thought this fit in here.  Could move it, I suppose
This might be a good thread for that....
http://www.urbanohio.com/forum2/index.php?topic=3921.0
Thanks.  I forgot all about that thread!
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: Florida Guy on March 22, 2007, 11:24:02 AM
Flats land seizure debated in court
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: MyTwoSense on March 22, 2007, 11:35:46 AM
I love how they keep using the phrase, "fair market value" when the majority of owners initially wanted their property values lowered to pay less taxes.

If they are given "fair" market value, i think the current owners should then be billed retroactively the difference between the fair market value and their current value and deduct that from the final sale amount!
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: KJP on March 22, 2007, 11:37:58 AM
It's not yet on the port authority's website (http://www.portofcleveland.com/), but I got a press release this morning from the port regarding an agreement with Shaia's Main Street Parking LLC. It doesn't say much on what the agreement will allow/create, but I will inquire further.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: Htsguy on March 24, 2007, 12:17:02 PM
Does anybody have some "inside information" regarding the settlement discussions that were suppose to take place on Friday at Judge Corrigan's insistence.  Based on the PD article describing the arguments on the summary judgment motions, the negotiations would seem to be a waste of time as it looks as though all the parties are pretty well dug in and not budging.  Also I note from the docket that the Port filed a motion to compel the production of documents on Friday which is not a good sign that discussions are going to bear fruit.  I just wish the court would set a new hearing date as soon as possible.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: MuRrAy HiLL on March 29, 2007, 12:28:58 AM
Tonight at the "Professionals in the City," Steve Strnisha mentioned:

-500 residential units (ranging from expensive condos to renting at $700/month)
-besides the water front location and city convienences, they are going for being "unique to cleveland"--no copy cat schemes
-Buy and sell residental units by the end of this year (don't think build was mentioned for this year, which is expected)
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: Robclevoh on March 29, 2007, 01:06:34 PM
I did some research on William Droe & Richard Droe (Droe Express System Inc)  it seems like a family business. They own 4 land parcels all in the flats, 3 of 4 taxes are paid but one DELQ. For $76,566, county values the land and building at $960,000

The mailing address seems to be his home Cleveland hts.


PRIMARY OWNER Droe Express System Inc 
PROPERTY ADDRESS 1146 Old River Rd, Cleveland, OH 44113
TAX MAILING ADDRESS Droe Express System Inc, ***********, Cleveland, OH 44118-3529
LEGAL DESCRIPTION 194 195 SEC MAIN ST Field Definitions
PROPERTY CLASS NIGHTCLUB RESTAURANT

See for your self here at the county auditor

http://auditor.cuyahogacounty.us/repi/taxbill.asp?txtParcel=10113036
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: MyTwoSense on March 29, 2007, 02:05:41 PM
although we can look a persons address up, etc on our own, I don't think its fair to post it here on urbanohio.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: Robclevoh on March 29, 2007, 02:11:57 PM
your right, i did edit!
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: CH Jake on March 30, 2007, 08:29:01 AM
Mssrs. Droe seem to be getting roughed up by the board here.  We don't have all the facts so let's give them some benefit of the doubt, eh?

Although no one has said what the tax values of all of Droes' properties are, if just this one property out of four is valued by the county at almost one million, I'm surprised that the Port Authority thinks that all four properties can be had for only $1.7 million.   

I don't know about any of you, but there's no way I would sell my house for anything close to the tax value -- more like double the tax value.  And I don't have a business running out of my home. 

Say what you will about the quality of the Beach Club experience, it is an operating business which has to count for something in the "blight" equation.  This probably gives them more of a leg to stand on in the lawsuit than an owner of a vacant building.

All of this certainly makes the Droes' offer of $3.5 million more reasonable in my mind.  Particularly if the alternative is legal fees and delaying the project while the Droes appeal. 


Without all of the facts it's hard to know whether even $3.5 million is reasonable. 

Going back to the Auditor's website, it looks like the following market rates are listed:

Parcel -033  $15,000
Parcel -034  $18,300
Parcel -035  $247,000
Parcel -036  $958,500

Total:  $1,238,800

So the one parcel really is the bulk of the value.  The Port's initial offer was only $1 million?  I'd be insulted too.  Not a good start to "good faith" negotiations.   $1.7 million also doesn't seem like a true market price.   The Droes' initial offer of $5 million also seems a bit out of reach though. 

We're still missing some of the facts.

Does anyone know what the two different appraisal values were?  The Port's first appraisal was higher than their second appraisal.  I'd be interested to hear what that first appraised value was and what their justification was for lowering it.

Also, does anyone know what value the Droes placed on the properties in the tax matter?  Did they ask for a reduced tax valuation?  And if so what was it?



I'd bet that unless the Port offers at least $3.5 million the Droes and their wounded pride are going to drag out the case as much as possible.  Ultimately the court decision is going to come down somewhere in between $1.7 million and $3.5 million, and the Droes will appeal. 



Here's hoping the project survives.




Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: Htsguy on April 03, 2007, 10:31:48 PM
Probate Court docket reflects that land appropriation hearing has been rescheduled for May 7, 2007.  Hopefully it will finally go forward on this date.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: PPayne216 on April 04, 2007, 01:31:59 PM
Does anyone know more about Fairmount Properties, who is partnered with Wolstein to do the retail portion of the project?  I know they did First & Main in Hudson but I haven't heard about anything else they've done in the area and there website gives the impression that they've been doing a lot of sprawl development.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: willyboy on April 04, 2007, 01:56:42 PM
From Crains today.....  They need to go into one of the proposed projects downtown. 

Another exit from the Flats
by STAN BULLARD

3:21 pm, April 3, 2007

Another Flats landmark has shut its doors.

Arhaus Furniture closed its longtime clearance center at 1296 Old River Road March 31. A sign on the store directs shoppers to Arhaus’s warehouse clearance center in Brooklyn.

More at crainscleveland.com http://www.crainscleveland.com (http://www.crainscleveland.com)
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: Htsguy on April 04, 2007, 05:27:33 PM
Interesting.  When Arhaus first open in 1986 there was absolutely no residential component yet they apparently did good business in the Flats.  Today there  probably 2,000 people living within walking distance and the store has no traffic.  You would think with all the people coming and going in all the apartment buildings at their doorstep a furniture store would be the most likely retail tenant in the Flats.  Wonder what this says about the possibility of retail in Wolstein's project.  I have always thought this was going to be the most problematic aspect for a variety of reasons I won't bore you with, but others on this thread seem to feel it is not a concern.  Any thoughts?
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: willyboy on April 04, 2007, 06:26:58 PM
Maybe it was because of visibility.  There were alot of people going down to the flats back then.  Retail was always risky down there, but I think Arhaus was "nice enough" to draw people in or to the flats to shop there.  I know people that live up the hill and forget its there, since they pretty much "forgot" amd assume nothing is left down there.   
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: buckeye1 on April 04, 2007, 09:45:58 PM
I think Arhaus is too "high end" for the existing downtown residential market, with maybe the exception of some penthouse units at Pinnacle, etc.  People aren't going to pay thousands of bucks for furniture for a rental apartment, because who know where they'll move next and whether or not the furniture will fit, etc.  That being said, I think downtown can support something a more upscale than Norton... something clean, urban/contemporary and affordable too.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: Vulpster03 on April 04, 2007, 10:49:48 PM
^ I think there is an upscale furniture store downtown in the warehouse district; Home Surroundings? or something like that, but its definately more contemporary and urban than Arhaus is, but I think its pretty upscale too. Arhaus to tell the truth is more of a suburban style decor in my opinion.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: Map Boy on April 05, 2007, 09:13:52 AM
I think Arhaus is too "high end" for the existing downtown residential market, with maybe the exception of some penthouse units at Pinnacle, etc.  People aren't going to pay thousands of bucks for furniture for a rental apartment, because who know where they'll move next and whether or not the furniture will fit, etc.  That being said, I think downtown can support something a more upscale than Norton... something clean, urban/contemporary and affordable too.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but this was actually an Arhaus "outlet" store.  They had some reasonably priced furniture in there that I felt was very appropriate for the market they were located in.  I came over from Ohio City to find some furniture there after discovering that the two furniture stores on W. 25th are filled with over-priced left over stock from the 80s (seriously, has anyone ever been in those stores?). 
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: 3231 on April 05, 2007, 09:24:53 AM
^I buy all my illegal drugs from those furniture stores. Don't be dissing them!
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: CBC on April 05, 2007, 09:33:13 AM
Mapboy, there were two Arhaus stores at one point(I am not sure if they are both still open) the regular retail store in the flats by the Watermark and the outlet store which was on w. 3rd down in the valley between the bridges. However I did a google and it shows that the outlet is now on Lorain Rd.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: Map Boy on April 05, 2007, 09:39:25 AM
Hmmm...I do recall the other space, though I never went there.  I've never been to another Arhaus, but I thought this one was particularly affordable.  Maybe they had deals on the top two floors?
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: peabody99 on April 05, 2007, 06:25:26 PM
the Arhaus outlet in the flats is gone. I just heard someone mention it a few days ago. It moved to the burbs. I wonder what they will do with the building, I really like it. Its not in Wolsteins zone is it?
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: j73 on April 05, 2007, 07:09:54 PM
Map Boy's right - the ground floor was regular retail and the upstairs was for deals/outlet.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: Mov2Ohio on April 06, 2007, 12:50:45 AM
The history of the Flats through parties
Posted by Michael Heaton April 05, 2007 19:22PM
Categories: Arts & Life
Scott Wolstein's planned redevelopment of the east bank of the Flats into an upscale housing, retail and residential district would be merely another incarnation for an area that has gone from pestilential swampland to settlement to industrial center to entertainment district and finally to failed entertainment district.

For the past 200 years, the changes were brought about by people who saw what was there and thought they could do better -- and have a good time doing it.

More at
http://blog.cleveland.com/earlyedition/2007/04/artslife_the_history_of_the_fl.html (http://blog.cleveland.com/earlyedition/2007/04/artslife_the_history_of_the_fl.html)
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: zaceman on April 06, 2007, 08:36:01 AM
1801 to 1971?  nothing happened in between? 
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: KJP on April 06, 2007, 10:41:45 AM
That's bizarre. No wonder why too many Clevelanders don't appreciate their city's amazing history.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: peabody99 on April 06, 2007, 07:40:02 PM
a couple of aspects of 1971 sound good  :wink: ...otherwise this is poorly written
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: clvlndr on April 07, 2007, 01:02:02 AM
goofy, surface-y article... and wouldn't the old Sohio/BP "Riverfests" be considered parties?  Until the 90s, when BP merged w/ Amoco/pulled up stakes for Chicago, they were the biggest thing going in the Flats, annually.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: X on April 07, 2007, 03:17:21 PM
This article comes across as an unnecessary kick in the balls.  Really, the vast majority of people that went to the Flats had a good time and stayed peaceful, and then left happy.  Why try to portray the entire history of the Flats as a downward spiral of violence?  What insight do their readers gain from this?  What does the PD gain from this? 
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: twok2lcdcnc on April 08, 2007, 04:26:13 PM
This article comes across as an unnecessary kick in the balls.  Really, the vast majority of people that went to the Flats had a good time and stayed peaceful, and then left happy.  Why try to portray the entire history of the Flats as a downward spiral of violence?  What insight do their readers gain from this?  What does the PD gain from this? 

All of these are very good points... my thoughts exactly.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: mrnyc on April 08, 2007, 09:34:27 PM
not to mention those old classic cleveland bands like pere ubu were more known for playing down there when it was pirate's cove than when it was peabody's, but whatev, peabodys was a good music joint. i think the minister of culture needs to retire from his pulpit, that was a painful read.

Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: clvlndr on April 09, 2007, 12:24:13 AM
This article comes across as an unnecessary kick in the balls.  Really, the vast majority of people that went to the Flats had a good time and stayed peaceful, and then left happy.  Why try to portray the entire history of the Flats as a downward spiral of violence?  What insight do their readers gain from this?  What does the PD gain from this? 

All of these are very good points... my thoughts exactly.

yeah, I agree... leave it to a PD writer to give what was a great entertainment district a particularly negative spin.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: musky on April 09, 2007, 09:44:05 AM
From the Flats Oxbow Newsletter:

Quote

Demolition began March 2 on the eight buildings owned by developer Scott Wolstein along Old River Road within the Flats East Bank Neighborhood footprint.  To date, nearly six buildings have been razed; the balance will be complete within 30 days.  The demolition effort is on track to exceed LEED’s (Leadership in Energy and Environmental Design) 50% threshold for recycling debris.  This represents a significant volume of steel, brick, and wood that will not end up in a landfill. The LEED Green Building Rating System, developed by the US Green Building Council, is the nationally accepted list of standards for environmentally sustainable construction.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: Htsguy on April 09, 2007, 09:48:52 PM
The Probate Court docket reflects that all the motions for summary judgment have been denied.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: 3231 on April 09, 2007, 10:01:22 PM
The Probate Court docket reflects that all the motions for summary judgment have been denied.

Summary judgment as requested by the hold-outs?
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: Htsguy on April 09, 2007, 10:59:36 PM
Yes, the remaining property holders.  Also, a partial motion for summary judgment filed by the Port Authority (relating to the issue of inability to reach an agreement...must be an element which needs to be proven in a taking action) was also denied.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: musky on April 10, 2007, 07:13:00 AM
So what's next?

Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: Htsguy on April 10, 2007, 09:51:47 AM
As noted above the 1st part of the e.d. hearing (after being continued at least 4-5 times) goes forward on May 7, 2007.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: 3231 on April 10, 2007, 09:57:15 AM
As noted above the 1st part of the e.d. hearing (after being continued at least 4-5 times) goes forward on May 7, 2007.

I missed that one. Its hard to keep track of this. Is this mainly due to on-going negotiations? Why else would they be delaying this so often?
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: Htsguy on April 10, 2007, 10:57:26 AM
Since I only have the Probate Court docket to gone on I can only speculate.  The continuance orders do not provide any specificity.  Good guesses can be made based on motions filed by the parties and the stage of the proceedings.

It is not unusual for a case to be continued at least once before it goes to trial and often their are multiple continuance.  I would venture that 90% of all Common Pleas cases that actually go to trial have had the trial date continued at least once for a whole host of reasons.  I would also guess that at least 40% have two or more trial continuances.  Some judges are very liberal in this regard but a few just won't put up with it unless it serves their purposes.

From my review of the docket it looks like the earlier continuances were due to the fact that the parties had not had a chance to complete discovery (this is a common reason in any litigation).  It looks as though the parties took more than 40 depositions which takes a significant amount of time, especially when you have a number of attorneys involved.  It is often hard to coordinate schedules (after all this is not their only case).  It would appear that the more recent continuances had more to do with court having to rule on discovery motions (parties allegedly not providing the required discovery as allowed by the rules so motions are filed), the court wanting to consider the motions for summary judgment and the fact that it looks as thought the court was pressing settlement (unsuccessfully).  Again this is all pure speculation on my part.  I cannot read the the various motions and brief on line (unlike Summit County).  However, I believe I am offering some pretty educated guesses.

At this point settlement looks like wish full thinking.  Given property owners like George and Kassouf and certain hard headed attorneys representing the property owners, this thing is going to trial (which is conducted in two phases...the first before the judge...if he rules a taking is appropriate then the second phase...valuation...is before a jury).  My view is that the property owners think it is in their best interest to drag this out even if they lose at trial.  I believe an appeal is almost a certainty given events to date.

Given the foregoing I hope Wolstein is able to being implementation of the project  so he can build around the other property owners.  I hope this is in Wolstein's plans although I don't know if it is possible since I really don't know where the hold out properties are located and whether it is feasible to begin doing SOMETHING with out the holdout properties.  If not, it may be another two years before ground is broken.  Anybody have any ideas or information on this point?
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: musky on April 10, 2007, 07:29:58 PM
Thanks for clearing that up. Some of us are not as legally literate as others.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: sky on April 29, 2007, 01:19:23 PM
A chance for something special on the Flats' east bank
Sunday, April 29, 2007

Let's face it: Cleveland-area developers haven't aimed for the stars lately when it comes to architecture and planning.

The local state of the art is to strive for cutesy-pie nostalgia, as in Mitchell Schneider's Disney-style Legacy Village shopping center in Lyndhurst, or to be satisfied with the solid but unexceptional contemporary look of Nathan Zaremba's Avenue development in downtown Cleveland.

More at cleveland.com http://www.cleveland.com (http://www.cleveland.com)
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: audidave on April 29, 2007, 02:26:46 PM
Awesome interview.  Hopefully that will bring more fleshed out drawings of what the East Bank can be.  Glad he isn't set on building to his original vision and he understands funky being good.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: clvlndr on April 29, 2007, 03:23:12 PM
I'm hopeful for good architecture, but right now, I'm just glad to see this project is going to happen one way or another.  Wolstein has shown is determination by knocking down those building's he owns and clearing most of the river frontage (and much to the ire of the holdouts who, unsuccessfully, griped Scot did this to devalue their adjacent land)... Right now, I'm more function over form.  Although I don't want something hideous or acutely boring, I just want residences and retail... including a few residential and office towers thrown in the mix. 

Wolstein's determination to get this important project done is a breath of fresh air here in C-town.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: the pope on April 29, 2007, 03:33:01 PM
can anyone provide any commentary on the architecture firms listed? (aside from me googleing)
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: KJP on April 29, 2007, 03:52:38 PM
Quote
The basic elements of the development include 250,000 square feet of retail, with a movie theater, shops, galleries and restaurants; 500,000 to 1 million square feet of office space; and more than 600 residential units.

Those numbers keep edging upward. Sounds like Wolstein is getting some serious interest from potential tenants.

Quote
He's also intrigued by the possibility - suggested by one of the firms he interviewed - to put a tall, landmark structure at river's edge on the northwest corner of the property.

VERY interesting!
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: Htsguy on April 29, 2007, 06:20:49 PM
Before commenting on the new information divulged in the article, a quick rant.  Can't Steve Litt begin any written piece without cutting down Cleveland in one way or another.  It really starts to get old after a while.  Maybe he should take a creative writing class and learn some new hooks.  In this particular piece I found the following comment particularly sophomoric:  "Need I mention that Cleveland passed up the opportunity to build a Gehry designed skyscraper headquarters for Progressive Corp. on the lakefront in the 1980's".  What the hell is he implying?  It is as if people where marching in the street against the design when he says "Cleveland".  Any by the way wasn't it a private corporation that decided to forego building.  He makes it sound like it was some sort of taxpayer funded project.  If I recall "Cleveland" (it's residents) would have given an arm and a leg to see that that building was built, but Progressive (and Litt's BUDDY Peter Lewis) determine that the Progressive workforce preferred the suburbs (at least that was one of the major reasons given)....more likely cooler heads decided it was cheaper to build mundane buildings in the suburbs than spend the $$$ for the signature building.  In any event it was not the people of Cleveland or its institutions that over see design and construction that put the brakes on that project.  I guess that I should be grateful that Litt did not start the piece, "In Cleveland, the poorest city in the nation"  which is one of the favorite hooks for PD writers (even if the article is about the latest in fashion footwear for women).

ANYWAY...I am disappointed in some of the information contained in the article.  That is utility work will not begin (at the earliest) until the fall of this year and that construction will not begin until fall of 2008 (which means 2009).  I thought the project was much further along, even with the court proceedings.

I am pleased to see that Wolstein is looking at having a number of different architectural firms design for the project.  This can only add interest and make the area appear as if it developed over time rather than all at once.  I really can't see Stern being a major player if Wolstein is serious when he says he is not interested in cute period architecture.  Of course love the idea of a tall signature building.  Unfortunately, it appears that we won't have any real idea of what the plan is going to be for at least a year.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: gavster on April 29, 2007, 06:43:14 PM
maybe once Dan Gilbert gets done consolidating all his 4,500 employees in a signature structure in downtown detroit from multiple buildings in the detroit burbs he can school peter lewis on how to accomplish this.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: mcadrenaline on April 29, 2007, 08:14:23 PM
nice interview and update on what is going on, but I too thought things were further along. I hope they can pull this together. Even if the architecture is not outdtanding, something new down there is better than nothing. I'd settle for something like Newport/Levee in Cincitucky.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: Mov2Ohio on April 29, 2007, 09:48:08 PM
^A Newport type place on the Ebank would be OK as long as there was no interior mallish portion. This is a neighborhood he's building not an isolated entertainmentplex. The venues at NPOL would be cool, just not Newports form.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: musky on April 29, 2007, 10:10:06 PM
Quote
Even if the Port loses and Wolstein has to pony up more cash, he said his project will go ahead.

This was nice to read.

Before commenting on the new information divulged in the article, a quick rant.  Can't Steve Litt begin any written piece without cutting down Cleveland in one way or another.  It really starts to get old after a while.  Maybe he should take a creative writing class and learn some new hooks.  In this particular piece I found the following comment particularly sophomoric:  "Need I mention that Cleveland passed up the opportunity to build a Gehry designed skyscraper headquarters for Progressive Corp. on the lakefront in the 1980's". 

I agree. Besides, didn't the loss of the progressive tower have more to do with personality clashes between the White administration and Lewis as opposed to how "Cleveland passed up the opportunity."
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: Vulpster03 on April 29, 2007, 11:22:51 PM
I'm not a fan of Newport on the Levee. Its just too touristy and generic.

The East Bank is interesting to me, because I cant quite figure out where Wolstein is going with it other than he wants it to be a "neighborhood". For instance I think I understand what Zaremba, MRN, and Stark have in mind in terms of the type of neighborhood and market. I think creating some kind of niche or unique vision is important for succesful developments like this.

I think it would be kind of cool for the Flats East Bank to capitlize on the growing "Green" culture and market. With its riverfront location and light rail access I think it could capitalize on the environmentally conscious, and people who like to enjoy the outdoors. I'd like to see a bicycle shop and rental, kayak shop, Whole Foods, Roots, health-food restaurants, etc. Maybe something like a downtown version of Coventry. The uniqueness of the neighborhood and niche is important in attracting not only people to live there but visit and support the retail as well. We're getting a number of interesting mixed-use developments in the area now, and they shouldn't all have a Cheesecake Factory.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: twok2lcdcnc on April 30, 2007, 12:49:59 AM
I'd like to see a bicycle shop and rental, kayak shop, Whole Foods, Roots, health-food restaurants, etc. Maybe something like a downtown version of Coventry.

Ohhh! and Subarus. Don't forget, Subarus for everybody!!! :)




and yes I actually drive one.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: clvlndr on April 30, 2007, 12:54:14 AM
nice interview and update on what is going on, but I too thought things were further along. I hope they can pull this together. Even if the architecture is not outdtanding, something new down there is better than nothing. I'd settle for something like Newport/Levee in Cincitucky.

I'm a little put off, but not surprised by this delay... the street/sewers reconfig and rebuilding is massive even for this relatively small plot.  Wolstein has to wait for full property control either by winning in court or losing and negotiating a buy out... I'd like it to move faster but, at the very least, I'm thrilled Wolstein is saying, he's moving forward and not tying this thing up in court further if he loses; he'll settle with these jerks and move forward...

... yeah, Litt's getting tiresome with his pinhead putdowns and, yes, the Progressive slap is both gratuitous and inaccurate-- and, for that matter, given Frank Gehry's, er, eccentric style, are we really that worse off by having only his Peter B/Weatherhead building at Case? -- not that I wouldn't love a Progressive tower teaming with those 5,000+ workers downtown... a tower by the guy who, White or no White Admin, planted his huge corp out in Mayfield and, yet, has since taken every opportunity to lecture the city constantly, particularly UCI, over its supposed lack of vision (much like another major POTENTIAL downtown player-cum suburb: Bob Stark)...
... must be nice to lecture Cleveland about the problem when there's truly are, themselves, a major reason for it...
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: Punch on April 30, 2007, 04:09:14 AM
I hope Jimmy's comes back :)
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: 3231 on April 30, 2007, 08:00:11 AM
We've known for about 2 years now that the preliminary utility work was to take about a year. Check back on this thread and you'll find it mentioned a few times.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: StrapHanger on April 30, 2007, 09:28:53 AM
That article made me seriously excited again for this project.  And I am very psyched Wolstein is thinking about using multiple architects.  Though none discussed in the article really excited me so much (don't know anything about FORUM though), they at least sound decently competent.

Before commenting on the new information divulged in the article, a quick rant.  Can't Steve Litt begin any written piece without cutting down Cleveland in one way or another.  It really starts to get old after a while. 

I have no problems with Litt's style- I think he's dead on.  Just look at Unversity Hospitals, the Clinic, the County (maybe a little premature...), etc.  For a town with so little constrcution activity, our local institutions have a serious knack for blowing it.

The Progressive issue is pretty tricky.  Who knows what really happened.  Yeah, it's pretty lazy to say "Cleveland" screwed that up, but it does sounds like a complete lack of vision by the White administration plus the the alienating clannishnes of the corporate dinosaurs (one down side of all those fortune 500 companies?) really did play a big role in the project's demise.  And I think it really would have been a cool project.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: w28th on April 30, 2007, 10:14:07 AM
The city wouldn't give Progressive tax abatement if I remember correctly.  It's not like 5,000 people working and spending downtown would offset property tax losses....  Thanks Mike White.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: MyTwoSense on April 30, 2007, 10:22:31 AM
The city wouldn't give Progressive tax abatement if I remember correctly.  It's not like 5,000 people working and spending downtown would offset property tax losses....  Thanks Mike White.

Don't blame it ALL on mike white either.  Other business' weighed in on that decision as well.  Progressive and the Hilton Corp have held grudges against Cleveland since they couldn't build on the Mall. I'm glad to have the open space in our downtown and its added historic value.

I mean I can't imagine the crap that would be built on the mall, if both of those companies would have been allowed to proceed.  it wouldn't fit in with Music Hall/Public Hall and (probably) would have make the Mall a dark dreary space.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: surfohio on April 30, 2007, 10:24:58 AM
I'm skeptical of having tall buildings on the waterfront. Wouldn't they cast a lot of shadows? I'm thinking that in a weather challenged city like Cleveland you would want as much natural sunlight as possible in the Flats and Lakefront.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: MayDay on April 30, 2007, 10:25:47 AM
The official word about Progressive from Peter B. Lewis' spokesperson was that "It was a business decision made by the Board of Directors when Al Lerner was chairman." Now, I'm sure that there are plenty of bullet points that led to that decision but all I'm saying is that's the "official" statement.

pope, Stern has worked on the following:

Youngstown's Federal Courthouse:
(http://www.urbanohio.com/NEOhio/Youngstown/Downtown/YTDT8.JPG)

Philadelphia's Comcast Center (image from phillyskyline.com):
(http://phillyskyline.com/123abc/comcast_river.jpg)

And NYC's 15 Central Park West:
(http://www.clevelandskyscrapers.com/nyc07/nyc07_39.jpg)

Stern's work isn't the most envelope pushing, but they're generally high-quality (unlike some PoMo types).
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: StrapHanger on April 30, 2007, 11:21:44 AM

I mean I can't imagine the crap that would be built on the mall, if both of those companies would have been allowed to proceed.  it wouldn't fit in with Music Hall/Public Hall and (probably) would have make the Mall a dark dreary space.

Pretty sre the Progressive tower would have been on a deck over the tracks north of the Mall, not on the mall itself.  Would have been a nice counterpart to the height of the Key tower south of the mall.

MayDay, didn't RTKL design the Tower City Ritz and Sklylight office tower?  Not sure why that sticks in my head.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: MayDay on April 30, 2007, 12:10:17 PM
^You're correct, RTKL designed both.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: mrnyc on April 30, 2007, 12:51:22 PM
i'll say this about stern, the 15 cpw project is one of the best going on in the city in terms of fit. they are actually building a modern pre-war throwback residential building, which i would have thought impossible. i really like it a lot. so i hope that translates to good news for the flats. check out this nice review on triplemint blog (quote: "Overall this is a skillfully designed love letter to New York."):

http://www.triplemint.com/triplemint/2005/10/15_cpw.html
(http://www.triplemint.com/photos/uncategorized/15cpw50_1.jpg)
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: MyTwoSense on April 30, 2007, 01:46:10 PM
I face this building and have watched it go up.  Our building actually made this development possible.  The price point is sky high and on the inside the quality doesn't quite match the exterior work.  When I was at the sales office snopping around, Denzel Washington just purchased a unit and he told me that building was 80% sold out at that time.  I think Rod Stewart also bought a place.

I do have to say, as previously mentioned, the new building is built prewar style to match the previous smaller structure.  the unit floor plans are layed out, they are built "old school" style.  I viewed this apartment http://www.15cpw.com/7-11C.pdf  which put me in the frame of mind of my apartment on the Square.  I love how you must go from room to room - none of that "open floor plan" or "grand room" crap! 

The big plus is the views.

Although, completely sold out I could never afford to buy a unit AND pay the association fees, but hell if you have 4-5 Mil lyin' around, for a one bedroom...knock yourself out!
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: w28th on April 30, 2007, 04:08:52 PM
While taking context into consideration is certainly important, Stern's design solutions generally look as though he purposely creates a situation where you don't even know it's there.  It's simply non-descript, uninspired architecture.  Not really a concept that should permiate through the Flats.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: X on April 30, 2007, 05:21:26 PM
A city is a lot like an orchestra.  One wouldn't want 150 soloists or "starchitects"- that wouldn't be "inspired", it would be chaos.  Instead an orchestra and a city has to play as an ensemble.  This building plays well as a piece of an urban ensemble.  There is no reason for it to do anything more.  Central Park is the soloist, 15cpw plays a sensitive accompaniment in concert with the other supporting players around it.  The result is greater than its parts, because each player does what it must do, not what it can do to stand out.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: clvlndr on April 30, 2007, 11:48:59 PM
I'm skeptical of having tall buildings on the waterfront. Wouldn't they cast a lot of shadows? I'm thinking that in a weather challenged city like Cleveland you would want as much natural sunlight as possible in the Flats and Lakefront.

You're kidding, aren't you? ... please, tell me you're kidding.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: JDD941 on May 01, 2007, 11:35:19 AM
^ Of course that is a serious statement....look how bad Chicago's waterfront sucks with those damn tall buildings!!!   :roll:
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: MyTwoSense on May 01, 2007, 11:53:35 AM
^ Of course that is a serious statement....look how bad Chicago's waterfront sucks with those damn tall buildings!!!   :roll:
I think what surf is saying is he might prefer buildings that "step" up from the waterfront on both sides of the flats, with the building looking more organic and less "planned"

Ahh ahh ahh...those building are not on the waterfront. Lake shore Blvd, plus the waterfront separates them.  Also, those buildings are in the Old Town, Gold coast, River North, Near North Side not downtown proper and they are still set back because of LSD

The downtown Chitown high rises are off the water WEST of LSG, Columbus Ave., grant/millennium park and all are built on the west side of Michigan ave, so the park get great light.  Its an impressive wall of 18-30 story buildings from the Hilton Towers (7 or 8 Street) going north all the way to Randolph.

If I was looking to live on either bank of the flats, I would be turned off if I was on the lower east or west bank but couldn't see the opposite bank or lake. 

I suspect the WHD and FEB condos will have to be taller in the next round of building - so buyers can have a view as when buying dense property having a view (balcony, solarium, terrace) is a plus
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: Htsguy on May 01, 2007, 01:10:54 PM
^Thanks for some thoughtful insights MyTwoSense.  Much more enjoyable reading than those posts that simply mock comments made by others on the forum.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: MyTwoSense on May 01, 2007, 01:44:24 PM
^Thanks for some thoughtful insights MyTwoSense.  Much more enjoyable reading than those posts that simply mock comments made by others on the forum.

Htsguy...don't take all post at face value.  There are a lot of "comics" and "sarcastic smartasses" here on UO and along with the ACCURATE and up-to-date information they collectively bring to this site...they also bring "personalities"

Most people here are really really cool.  the longer you're here, you'll be able to understand that - UO is like one big waltson's/Jeffersons/Bunker/Ortiz/golden girls dysfuntional family.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: 3231 on May 01, 2007, 06:54:58 PM
Anyone notice that Litt's article mentioned 600 units of housing?
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: FrqntFlyr on May 01, 2007, 07:10:48 PM
Quote
The basic elements of the development include 250,000 square feet of retail, with a movie theater, shops, galleries and restaurants; 500,000 to 1 million square feet of office space; and more than 600 residential units.

Those numbers keep edging upward. Sounds like Wolstein is getting some serious interest from potential tenants.

KJP did. 

It was originally 300 units, right?  Then 450 units when Lighthouse Landing got added and one tower was supposed to be residential and another commercial.  So maybe now both of the Lighthouse Landing towers are staying residential...? 
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: KJP on May 01, 2007, 07:34:14 PM
I owe a phone call to some people to find out what the deal is.

The rising number of residential units is interesting. But what struck me was the square feet of office space -- 500,000 to 1 million?? Um, the 38-story Erieview Tower is 703,205 square feet, according to Bear Stearns Commercial Mortgage Securities Inc. I believe the old Higbee's building is about 500,000 square feet.

Both the residential and office components have gone way up.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: 3231 on May 01, 2007, 07:47:20 PM
I saw something interesting on a map of the Flats. This map shows the general footprint of FEB and the full build-out of Stonebridge. The only thing new that I saw was a large footprint on the west bank just south of the Main Ave bridge along the river. hmm
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: MyTwoSense on May 01, 2007, 07:51:48 PM
I saw something interesting on a map of the Flats. This map shows the general footprint of FEB and the full build-out of Stonebridge. The only thing new that I saw was a large footprint on the west bank just south of the Main Ave bridge along the river. hmm

What map?  Can you post a pic or link, so we're all on the same page.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: KJP on May 01, 2007, 07:58:55 PM
Can you describe the footprint on the West Bank?
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: 3231 on May 01, 2007, 10:09:11 PM
What map?  Can you post a pic or link, so we're all on the same page.

Sorry, can't share that stuff yet on this forum. But, I don't know much more than what I said.

KJP, I think its just a rectangle. It was just a shape. No words or labels.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: MyTwoSense on May 01, 2007, 10:28:43 PM
What map?  Can you post a pic or link, so we're all on the same page.

Sorry, can't share that stuff yet on this forum. But, I don't know much more than what I said.

KJP, I think its just a rectangle. It was just a shape. No words or labels.

You tease!  :-P :wink:
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: musky on May 07, 2007, 01:05:58 PM
From WCPN:

Quote
Flats Eminent Domain Case to Begin Trial Today

Aired May 7, 2007

The Cleveland-Cuyahoga County Port Authority's bid to obtain a portion of Cleveland's East Flats under eminent domain is scheduled for trial today. ideastream's economics reporter Tasha Flournoy has more.

Listen to the MP3
http://www.wcpn.org/mp3/2007/05/0507flats.mp3 (http://www.wcpn.org/mp3/2007/05/0507flats.mp3)

The land seizure would clear the way for developer Scott Wolstein's proposed $230 million riverfront neighborhood in the East Flats. Wolstein has already razed buildings on properties he controls, but has been unable to reach an agreement with several other property owners to purchase their land. So the Port Authority is suing to force the owners under eminent domain to sell the land at a price below what owners are asking. Port Authority attorney Steven Kaufman says the development serves a public purpose, therefore eminent domain applies.

    Steven Kaufman: This case involves a multitude of other public purposes, ranging from housing to transportation to all of the parks and green space, public space aspects of the project.

Cuyahoga County Probate Judge John E. Corrigan will hear arguments in the trial. If the judge decides the port has the right to take the properties, a jury trial would then decide fair prices. The trial is expected to last at least two weeks. Tasha Flournoy, 90.3.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: jamiec on May 07, 2007, 02:01:29 PM
The x-factor in this case is how much the judge likes lapdances.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: FrqntFlyr on May 07, 2007, 02:04:53 PM
^Nice.  Or if he tailgates in the "Pit"
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: MuRrAy HiLL on May 07, 2007, 11:32:51 PM
Where I come from, you torch the buildings if they do not sell at your price! ;)

Either way, I'm glad the Wolstein said everything will be built according to plan even if it has to come out of his pocket to pay what these property owners are asking.  Just too bad the average Cleveland construction delay has to be prolonged even more with these several weeks of court appears...(80 witnesses?? on effing what? see below)

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Flats eminent domain trial opens
Posted by Tom Breckenridge May 07, 2007 14:22PM
Categories: Breaking News
Developer Scott Wolstein is "a wolf in sheep's clothing'' who is using the Cleveland port authority to illegally seize land for his $230 million neighborhood development on the Flats east bank, lawyers for property owners say.

Monday morning marked the start of the controversial eminent domain trial in Cuyahoga County Probate Court, where the Cleveland-Cuyahoga County port authority is suing to take nine properties for the development.

More at cleveland.com http://www.cleveland.com (http://www.cleveland.com)
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: Htsguy on May 08, 2007, 08:41:40 AM
I truly doubt that 80 witnesses will testify.  It is a regular practice of litigators to identify almost everybody who has anything to do with anything on their pre trial witness list.  Most of the time only a fraction really take the stand.  Couple of reasons for this.  If a person is not on the list it is the customary practice for the judge to exclude that person from testifying.  A trial lawyer may really have no intention of calling a particular witness, but may change his mind during the course of the trial depending on how things (or issues) are going.  So it is just a safe practice to have all potentially relevant names on your list.  Also, a long list of witnesses " scares" and "confuses" the other side (not really but lawyers continue to think it does).

I note from the court docket (yesterday) that the preliminary hearing was continued again.  However, it looks as though this was only because they did not complete hearing all the pre trial motions and were working on that yesterday.  I would imagine that they will start as soon as they finish going through all the motions (in other words the hearing has not been continued for weeks or months like in the past, just a day or so).

Thank God for hard headed people (both sides).  They keep the lawyers in their BMWs.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: musky on May 08, 2007, 11:14:50 AM
I wonder how many strippers are in the pool of 80?
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: mrnyc on May 08, 2007, 04:48:58 PM
torch'em -- buy'em -- take'm! who cares? just get it done already and lets get on with it.

kee rist if there is one thing in my face everyday of cleveland holding back its that stuff like the freakin nytimes building and the bank of america building in midtown manhattan were planned and will be built before there are any shovels in the ground in the flats. so no more delays your honor lets get a move-on.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: Mov2Ohio on May 08, 2007, 05:17:17 PM
I don't know what it is with these high profile projects, but it seems they just cannot move forward in Cleveland. Maybe them being high profile is the problem. Maybe in the future developers (like those of Stonebridge) should buy a parcel get the project approved through the city and start construction, no need for the press conferences and interviews..Just build the damn thing.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: clvlndr on May 08, 2007, 10:24:20 PM
I don't know what it is with these high profile projects, but it seems they just cannot move forward in Cleveland. Maybe them being high profile is the problem. Maybe in the future developers (like those of Stonebridge) should buy a parcel get the project approved through the city and start construction, no need for the press conferences and interviews..Just build the damn thing.

EXACTLY!!!!
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: X on May 08, 2007, 10:46:13 PM
Press conferences and interviews and the "high profile " that they create aren't what is slowing down these projects.  The people they are negotiating with for property know when something is up and when someone wants their land for development, and they inevitably hear "ka-ching" in their head.  As a developer, you just can't hide that even if you try.  You inevitably have to give some clues as to who you are and what you might do with the property.  Even if you are all hush-hush about what you want with the property, that will give something away. If people catch a wiff that their property might be of value to you, they will want top dollar for it.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: KJP on May 08, 2007, 11:01:25 PM
Zaremba, who normally shies from the limelight, went the heavy PR route to stimulate sales with the Avenue District. But he already had much of the needed property in hand when he bought the parking lots from the city. Some interesting differences and similarities there.

Stark tried to quietly work some behind the scenes stuff with downtown parking lot owner Tony Asher, but some nosy reporter sniffed that one out. ;) Still, for the prior year, Stark was quite the high-profile operator when it came to his desires for building downtown.

I tend to think developers are egoists by their very nature, simply because of what they do. They build stuff that changes the landscape, possibly for hundreds of years. Their creations are, in some ways, monuments to themselves. So the PR blitzes go with the territory. I found Zaremba to be very different breed, though. I don't know how he or other Cleveland developers compare to their colleagues around the country. Having said all that, I don't think the love or hate of PR makes one developer more or less effective than another.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: clvlndr on May 08, 2007, 11:06:10 PM
^points well taken, but I think sometimes our developers fall into the messiah complex -- that their home-run project will save the city and, of course, as we see in the Flats, (as you note) these biggie, high-profile projects also draws out the leeches.  But then, too, these big projects are risky and in a conservative town like ours, where we're so freeway car oriented, big, high-density, mixed use urban developments, I'm sure, are a very hard sell here, esp in our local economy... I'm sure local banks much prefer those single-use, strip developments in the burbs.

Answer: do what Price-Corna (w/ Stonebridge) and MRN (E.4th Street) have done.  Start small; one building at a time, then build momentum and excitement-- contact hitters can score runs-- just don't always swing for the fences (homerun hitters are usually the biggest strikeout kings, as well).  Both Stonebridge and E. 4th are now the hottest existing downtown projects going... Meanwhile, Stark Pesht and Wolstein Flats are stalled... but things seem to be looking up for both... One must have a great deal of patience in this town; we'll all be rewarded, eventually; it's just not happening overnight.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: KJP on May 08, 2007, 11:28:03 PM
I think you hit on it. One feature which this city seems to "excel" at is its number of leeches. They exist both in the private and public sectors, and they all seek their piece of the action. Enough of them come out to feed that it bleeds the project to death, or at least causes it to be scaled back. In my job, I see a lot of these leeches around, but I think there used to be a lot more of them back 20-50 years ago. Lots of them were mob connected, and many of today's leeches are still connected to some remnants of nefarious activity. Sadly, you'll find a concentration of them in the Flats, as well as along West 25th, Carnegie, and a few other places.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: the pope on May 09, 2007, 05:42:19 AM
^i'd argue that practically any rust belt city has its share of leeches.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: sky on May 09, 2007, 08:32:36 AM
Cleveland has way more leeches than most places.  It's like a dark gray cloud hovering over the city and people need to fight like hell to rise above it.  People here tend to be way too territorial (only concerned about what's best for them and protecting their own turf) and not able to grasp the idea of embracing long-term changes that benefit the entire region.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: Htsguy on May 09, 2007, 08:57:23 AM
Maybe somebody should start a seperate Cleveland "leeches" thread.  Getting back on topic, does anybody know if the actual hearing started yesterday or is going forward today?  The court docket is silent on this.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: musky on May 15, 2007, 07:13:25 AM
Former Mayor Jane Campbell was in court yesterday to testify.
There was a report on WTAM this morning, but there is nothing online yet.


This is from WCPN - yesterday:

Quote
Former Mayor Campbell Expected to Testify in Flats Case

Aired May 14, 2007

Former Cleveland Mayor Jane Campbell is scheduled to testify today in the trial over whether property in Cleveland's East Flats can be seized under eminent domain. ideastream's Bill Rice reports.

Listen to the MP3
http://www.wcpn.org/mp3/2007/05/0514campbell.mp3 (http://www.wcpn.org/mp3/2007/05/0514campbell.mp3)

As the second week of the trial gets underway, Campbell is one of at least two high-profile witnesses yet to make an appearance in the case.

She's expected to discuss her involvement in talks with developer Scott Wolstein as early as 2002 about his proposal to build a mixed residential and commercial complex in the East Flats. That was the year she began her first and only term as mayor, and before the Cleveland/Cuyahoga County Port Authority took a role in securing the land for the project.

In its suit against property owners the Port claims the economic benefit to the community Wolstein's project will generate is a public benefit, and it's therefore justified in using its power of eminent domain to acquire the land.

It took the case to trial after the property owners failed to accept the offered price.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: musky on May 15, 2007, 07:48:28 AM
And in today's PD:

Quote
Campbell denies secrecy in Flats project
Tuesday, May 15, 2007
Tom Breckenridge
Plain Dealer Reporter

Jane Campbell on Monday rejected any notion that she and her top staff worked secretly and illegally to pave the way for developer Scott Wolstein and a proposed $230 million redevelopment of the east bank of the Flats.

Testifying in Cuyahoga County Probate Court, the former mayor said Wolstein was a significant land owner in the Flats and the only developer with a comprehensive plan to achieve the city's goals of new housing downtown and improved access to the Cuyahoga River and Lake Erie.


More at cleveland.com http://www.cleveland.com (http://www.cleveland.com)
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: Punch on May 15, 2007, 05:39:15 PM
^from the way the article is written, it sounds like she held her own
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: clvlndr on May 16, 2007, 12:43:03 AM
I agree with Jane -- I've never heard of such an ordinance requiring a vote for the City's delegation of ED powers to an agency like the PA.  I think the opposition is really reaching.  Hopefully this is a precursor to they're getting their legal asses kicked.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: Mov2Ohio on May 21, 2007, 11:07:30 AM
Flats developers pitch plans for an East-West combo
Posted by Henry J. Gomez May 21, 2007 10:17AM
Categories: Breaking News, Economic development
In a booth on the floor of this year's International Council of Shopping Centers' spring convention in Las Vegas, east has met west, Cleveland-style.


The latest master plan for the Flats includes walkways linking the two banks. (Click for full size; see link in story for labeled PDF)The people behind two projects for the Flats - on opposite sides of the Cuyahoga River - have come here to market their planned neighborhoods as one for the first time. It's an intriguing strategy, a sign of unity that could perhaps manufacture momentum and stimulate close to $1 billion worth of housing, retail and office space. "This is big," said developer Bob Corna, who with K&D Group Inc. of Willoughby is working on the West Bank's $700 million Stonebridge apartment and condo project. "The sum of the parts makes a much bigger whole. We're known nationwide as the Flats."


More at http://blog.cleveland.com/business/2007/05/flats_developers_pitch_plans_f.html (http://blog.cleveland.com/business/2007/05/flats_developers_pitch_plans_f.html)
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: the pope on May 21, 2007, 11:17:51 AM
now we just need a signature cable-stayed pedestrian bridge!

(please note sarcasm)
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: zaceman on May 21, 2007, 12:04:32 PM
wow really exciting

this plan seems different looking in a few ways.  is there more involved with the stonebridge plan now?
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: w28th on May 21, 2007, 12:10:27 PM
Good to hear there is some cooperation going on here, but...
Looks like there will be plenty of surface parking spaces available in that masterplan.  Don't forget about the "revolutionary" cul-de-sac.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: audidave on May 21, 2007, 12:14:48 PM
Not sure how much new is in here as much as jockeying going on.  We're all expecting some big announcement from Stark and now the 2 Flats groups have agreed to cooperate as a unified front.  Now the Flats people can be taken more seriously on a more equal footing with Stark since they're project now also hits close to $1billion.  Its good to have some competition and cooperation. 
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: SergeViteli on May 21, 2007, 12:28:22 PM
Am I missing something or reading this wrong... where the heck is the RT. 2 bridge, isn't it North of the Detroit/Superior bridge?
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: cle2032 on May 21, 2007, 12:42:37 PM
Nice to see the cooperation between all of these parties.  Hopefully they're sincere and realize that the true success of each respective project is dependent on the success of its neighbors!  I can definetly see a Whole Foods/Trader Joe's and/or Fox and Obel in the area however it'd be a shame if it hurt Constantino's.  Anyways...Go CAVS!!!  I'll be at McGee's in Lincoln Park (Chicago) tonight if anyone wants to watch the game!   
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: Confiteordeo on May 21, 2007, 12:47:28 PM
Good to hear there is some cooperation going on here, but...
Looks like there will be plenty of surface parking spaces available in that masterplan.  Don't forget about the "revolutionary" cul-de-sac.

What disappoints me most is how close that parking is to the river.  Not only are there runoff issues (oil leaks and such,) but you'd think the developers would want the best possible views for their buildings.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: Matches on May 21, 2007, 12:55:47 PM
Am I missing something or reading this wrong... where the heck is the RT. 2 bridge, isn't it North of the Detroit/Superior bridge?

It is labeled as "Main Ave Pedestrian Bridge Above" on the map with a dotted line.   I'm not sure where they're getting "pedestrian" from, though.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: theguv on May 21, 2007, 02:32:54 PM
"What disappoints me most is how close that parking is to the river.  Not only are there runoff issues (oil leaks and such,) but you'd think the developers would want the best possible views for their buildings."

Good points Confiteordeo.  Not sure which parking lots you are referring to as they all seem to be placed in the center of the development.  Not sure how detailed this masterplan is, but I too hope the developers will focus on the environmental ramifications of the development as  functional landscaping (bioswales, raingardens, etc) would not only enhance the ecological processes at the site, but enhance the aesthetics and appeal to shoppers, residents, etc. 

Re: this proposal, I am most interested in the creation of Old River Park and the boardwalk, the connection to Whiskey Island, the implementation of green design and functional landscaping, and the relationship of the entire plan to the the Cuyahoga and Erie being that  they are the most critical public/env assets.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: kal-el on May 21, 2007, 02:53:03 PM
a Bernie Kosar steakhouse.  AWESOME!  That actually is a perfect restaurant to go in there.  Its unique and people from outside of downtown would go down to the flats to eat there.  As long as its a quality place, people would go back.http://blog.cleveland.com/business/2007/05/kosar_to_open_steakhouse_in_fl.html
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: zaceman on May 21, 2007, 02:52:59 PM
Kosar to open steakhouse in Flats East Bank
Posted by Henry J. Gomez May 21, 2007 15:03PM
Categories: Breaking News, Economic development
Bernie Kosar, under center the last time the Cleveland Browns were Super Bowl contenders, is now under contract to bring a steakhouse to the Flats.


Bernie Kosar will be bringing a steakhouse to Cleveland's Flats.Still beloved in Northeast Ohio, the Boardman native is the first announced tenant for the $230 million mixed-use neighborhood planned for the East Bank. Randy Ruttenberg, a principal with lead developer Fairmount Properties LLC, confirmed that Kosar's management group has agreed to open a 6,700-square-foot restaurant and sports bar.
Ruttenberg, in Las Vegas for the International Council of Shopping Centers spring convention, said the concept will be similar to the Kosar-branded Bernie's Steakhouse near Miami. The retired quarterback keeps a home in south Florida.
More at cleveland.com http://www.cleveland.com (http://www.cleveland.com)
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: Confiteordeo on May 21, 2007, 03:11:41 PM
Theguv-  I'm talking about the parking lots south of "future entertainment" and the building to its left (both on the west bank.)  Looking at the image again, I'm not sure if these parking lots are preëxisting or not.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: musky on May 21, 2007, 03:14:05 PM
Good news.
Hasn't nybody noticed the two properties that stick out:
WATERPARK!!!
FUTURE ENTERTAINMENT (casino?)!!!

I also see what still appears to be a DFAS type building on the East Bank, the remnants f Lighthouse Landing, and a completely different looking layout for the East Bank in general (as opposed to what was shown (albeit, conceptually) previously.

Lastly, it looks as if the building that houses Metropolis is staying... not that it means anything special, but it is a cool building.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: X on May 21, 2007, 08:25:35 PM
The parking lots shown are preexisting.  The plan we are looking at is a development plan for a private developer, not a neighborhood master plan, so I'd say that it is likely that Corna just doesn't anticipate having control of that land, or isn't looking to develop it at this time.  I don't think it shows an intent to keep surface parking on a massive scale as a part of the "vision" for the neighborhood. 

Musky, what changes are you talking about on the East Bank?  The proposal looks the same to me as their earlier proposal, except with the addition of a heavily modified Lighthouse Landing.

A waterpark?!  Yikes!

Notice also the building footprints being shown to the North of the East Bank development- I wonder how this matches with Stark's vision.  Certainly it looks like there won't be any connection between that development and Wolstein's in this plan.

And finally, a Bernie-themed restaurant.  That's even better than Al Bubba Baker's Bubba-Q in Avon.  They should call it "Almost Champps Americana" in ode to our glory days of being "contenders".
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: KStay2 on May 21, 2007, 08:38:31 PM
FUTURE ENTERTAINMENT (casino?)!!!

That would be nice.. especially if voters weren't attempting to be the moral arm of our state.

"Hey, we need to vote down casino gambling because it will lead to gambling addictions"

Because it's obvious that nobody can become addicted to horse racing or the lottery..
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: musky on May 21, 2007, 09:21:10 PM
^^The corner where Fagins used to be looks different to me.
But I am guessing from memory
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: 3231 on May 21, 2007, 10:40:57 PM
Regarding the East-West bank cooperation, I'm really surprised that the writer didn't cite the coordinator of this effort. Buliding Cleveland by Design (who will soon be led by a UO participant) is responsible for this partnering.

Great news about the east bank. I just got back from a 10-day vacation...have the ED proceedings come to a conclusion?
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: Mov2Ohio on May 21, 2007, 11:28:53 PM
I wonder what effect the movie theatre will have on Tower City Cinemas. I'm glad it will be there though.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: 3231 on May 21, 2007, 11:45:59 PM
well, if the Medical Mart and the convention center go there, Forest City has said that it will remove the Tower City Cinemas. I'd much rather have an active cinema that invites folks onto the street than have one that buries them in the mall. I think the FEB would be a great location for the film fest.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: ragarcia on May 22, 2007, 07:25:55 AM
Tower City has had its chance to make itself great and yet they have done nothing in the past decade to seriously improve themselves.  Its time to give someone else a chance.  In particular, someone that will push people into the streets rather than suck them into the guts of a building the way that TC does.

Don't get me wrong, as a downtown dweller (when I lived in C-Town) I would spend the better part of my weekend in/around Tower City, but I found myself always hoping that they would eventually announce a project to grow the mall.  If nothing else, to show that they are interested in investing in the city.  I find it incredible that places like Stamford, CT (which is by far, more empty and desolate that Cleveland) has a downtown mall that is spending millions to upgrade itself and already has a Target in the city yet TC could never bring itself to invest in order to improve.

And don't get me started with the fact that Midtown Miami (literally, no man's land - no matter how many new condos they put there) also has a multi-level Target.

It is now TC's time to pay the piper.  Between the East Bank project and the Zaremba project next to the Galleria, TC will become irrelevant.  The sad part is that it really didn't have to be this way...regardless of what they say about the demographic/economic shift that they claim has hurt them.  Seriously, you have to spend money to make money.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: the pope on May 22, 2007, 08:04:15 AM
^look who owns tower city, and you could have saved yourself that entire post.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: bizbiz on May 22, 2007, 10:28:23 AM
To hell with Forest City! They're the past and TC will no longer matter with all this new stuff planned!
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: Mov2Ohio on May 22, 2007, 11:26:06 AM
To hell with Forest City! They're the past and TC will no longer matter with all this new stuff planned!

True, but I don't want to see Tower City cdecline completely especially if a new convention center and med mart are to go in . It will be the first thing seen by people coming off the red line and those at the conventions. maybe if retail does leave the mall for the street Tower City could be reinvented ala The Galleria. 
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: cle2032 on May 22, 2007, 12:13:12 PM
I have to disagree but I think TC's revival is just as important as any other project going on downtown!   The interior is gorgeous and any one of the proposed downtown projects will have to try VERY hard if they're to create something as unique as TC.  I've had guests from Chicago who were amazed that our train station was a mall.  Granted, ignorance is bliss, but they loved the concept.  Downtown Chicago is a different beast than Cleveland but they have Water Tower Place, Nordstrom, Bloomingdales, and a Sak's mall (Yes Bloomingdale's and Sak's malls are depressing to walk around).  I really wouldn't say any of those 4 malls drain the street.  TC isn't that big either.    I really think with the right tenants in TC, we can maintain a vibrant downtown with one mall and a bunch of street level retail.  If Med. Mart and the Con. Center are a go in TC, wouldn't everyone think that it would be revamped to a high class mall to cater to all the convention goers and rich doctors?!?!   
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: kal-el on May 22, 2007, 12:38:24 PM
If Med. Mart and the Con. Center are a go in TC, wouldn't everyone think that it would be revamped to a high class mall to cater to all the convention goers and rich doctors?!?!  

I bet all those docs would be very impressed with the dollar store.  In all seriousness, I think TC can be viable if/when the other projects are up and running and/or the convention center/med mart moves to behind TC.  Right now, all TC has to depend on are downtown employees and the people that come down for games etc.  No one comes to TC from the burbs just to shop anymore.  A large increase in downtown residents + convention center would fix this very quickly.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: Mov2Ohio on May 22, 2007, 12:45:47 PM
If Med. Mart and the Con. Center are a go in TC, wouldn't everyone think that it would be revamped to a high class mall to cater to all the convention goers and rich doctors?!?!  

I bet all those docs would be very impressed with the dollar store.  In all seriousness, I think TC can be viable if/when the other projects are up and running and/or the convention center/med mart moves to behind TC.  Right now, all TC has to depend on are downtown employees and the people that come down for games etc.  No one comes to TC from the burbs just to shop anymore.  A large increase in downtown residents + convention center would fix this very quickly.

Off topic, but I wonder why everyone who mentions Tower City has to mention that one dollar store and never the better stores like Brooks Brothers or Jonston & Murphy, Charlotte Rouse, or even Morton's Steakhouse.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: the pope on May 22, 2007, 12:50:21 PM
Off topic, but I wonder why everyone who mentions Tower City has to mention that one dollar store and never the better stores like Brooks Brothers or Jonston & Murphy, Charlotte Rouse, or even Morton's Steakhouse.

You have immediately lost all credibility when it comes to the discussion of "better stores" in Downtown cleveland. I'll let MyTwoCents yell at you for brooks brothers.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: kal-el on May 22, 2007, 12:59:56 PM
If Med. Mart and the Con. Center are a go in TC, wouldn't everyone think that it would be revamped to a high class mall to cater to all the convention goers and rich doctors?!?!  

I bet all those docs would be very impressed with the dollar store.  In all seriousness, I think TC can be viable if/when the other projects are up and running and/or the convention center/med mart moves to behind TC.  Right now, all TC has to depend on are downtown employees and the people that come down for games etc.  No one comes to TC from the burbs just to shop anymore.  A large increase in downtown residents + convention center would fix this very quickly.

Off topic, but I wonder why everyone who mentions Tower City has to mention that one dollar store and never the better stores like Brooks Brothers or Jonston & Murphy, Charlotte Rouse, or even Morton's Steakhouse.

That's an easy answer.  Because its pathetic that a mall that once was home to Structure, J. Crew, Banana Republic, Abercrombie & Fitch, Gap, Disney, Warner Bros., etc. etc. etc has to fill its vacancies with dollar stores.  This isn't all the fault of TC obviously, since they can't force people to choose to shop there instead of a suburban mall w/ the same stores.  At the same time, its extremely dissappointing to see what has happened.  Brooks Brothers is solid, and I believe recently signed a new lease, but they need a lot more to be viable.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: willyboy on May 22, 2007, 01:04:09 PM
Im certain it is just a generalizing way of saying "where it has gone" from "where it was" after it opened.
The dollar store going into a mall where at one time it could not have been conceived, typically is the signal of the death spiral that is taking place.  Tower City can and may be a bit of a different case, but it is still easy to make that connection..
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: cle2032 on May 22, 2007, 03:19:31 PM
Quote
Off topic, but I wonder why everyone who mentions Tower City has to mention that one dollar store and never the better stores like Brooks Brothers or Jonston & Murphy, Charlotte Rouse, or even Morton's Steakhouse.

Lord Please... :roll:

Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: KStay2 on May 22, 2007, 04:35:51 PM
If Med. Mart and the Con. Center are a go in TC, wouldn't everyone think that it would be revamped to a high class mall to cater to all the convention goers and rich doctors?!?!   

I bet all those docs would be very impressed with the dollar store.  In all seriousness, I think TC can be viable if/when the other projects are up and running and/or the convention center/med mart moves to behind TC.  Right now, all TC has to depend on are downtown employees and the people that come down for games etc.  No one comes to TC from the burbs just to shop anymore.  A large increase in downtown residents + convention center would fix this very quickly.

Great point, how many people from the suburbs are going to drive downtown to go to a mall that doesn't have a department store anymore??  Until there is a serious downtown population, a mall will not thrive.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: KStay2 on May 22, 2007, 04:37:07 PM
Let me add to that, a downtown population that has expendable income.  Aka.. young professionals.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: cle2032 on May 22, 2007, 04:46:23 PM
I love coming home from school and contributing to the local economy!  I tell myself that so I don't feel bad spending $$$. 
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: jamiec on May 22, 2007, 05:55:03 PM
If Med. Mart and the Con. Center are a go in TC, wouldn't everyone think that it would be revamped to a high class mall to cater to all the convention goers and rich doctors?!?!   

I bet all those docs would be very impressed with the dollar store.  In all seriousness, I think TC can be viable if/when the other projects are up and running and/or the convention center/med mart moves to behind TC.  Right now, all TC has to depend on are downtown employees and the people that come down for games etc.  No one comes to TC from the burbs just to shop anymore.  A large increase in downtown residents + convention center would fix this very quickly.

Off topic, but I wonder why everyone who mentions Tower City has to mention that one dollar store and never the better stores like Brooks Brothers or Jonston & Murphy, Charlotte Rouse, or even Morton's Steakhouse.

That's an easy answer.  Because its pathetic that a mall that once was home to Structure, J. Crew, Banana Republic, Abercrombie & Fitch, Gap, Disney, Warner Bros., etc. etc. etc has to fill its vacancies with dollar stores.  This isn't all the fault of TC obviously, since they can't force people to choose to shop there instead of a suburban mall w/ the same stores.  At the same time, its extremely dissappointing to see what has happened.  Brooks Brothers is solid, and I believe recently signed a new lease, but they need a lot more to be viable.

It's interesting to note that none of those brands is considered exclusive anymore. In fact, does Structure even exist or has it gone to the world of private-label discount land? It's difficult for a mall like Tower City to prosper when it has the same stores as all the other malls and no community in which to draw upon.

The thing I fear with the East Bank and Pesht is they are going to drop a retail neutron bomb on the area. Combined, they are talking $2 billion worth of development downtown. Obviously, I like this, but I also worry about the idea of saturation. Fundamentally, there is nothing wrong with Tower City. As far a malls go, it's extremely nice. Maybe it could be adapted for another user.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: KStay2 on May 22, 2007, 06:34:58 PM
Structure was and is owned by Express, it is now Express for Men.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: Punch on May 22, 2007, 06:45:37 PM
I hope the quest for retailers is increasing the competition between East Bank and Pesht.  Actually what I hope is the competetion spurs the developers to be the first one with cranes in the air.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: clvlndr on May 22, 2007, 06:59:01 PM
To hell with Forest City! They're the past and TC will no longer matter with all this new stuff planned!

That won't be the case if Forest City successfully lures the Medical Merchandize Mall and the convention center there.   It'll also be hard to say a place doesn't matter that has downtown's highest rated hotels and the main Rapid station connected to it, not to mention the Q, the Jake and the highest concentration of connected office space in one complex.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: Mov2Ohio on May 22, 2007, 07:00:12 PM
If Med. Mart and the Con. Center are a go in TC, wouldn't everyone think that it would be revamped to a high class mall to cater to all the convention goers and rich doctors?!?!  

I bet all those docs would be very impressed with the dollar store.  In all seriousness, I think TC can be viable if/when the other projects are up and running and/or the convention center/med mart moves to behind TC.  Right now, all TC has to depend on are downtown employees and the people that come down for games etc.  No one comes to TC from the burbs just to shop anymore.  A large increase in downtown residents + convention center would fix this very quickly.

Off topic, but I wonder why everyone who mentions Tower City has to mention that one dollar store and never the better stores like Brooks Brothers or Jonston & Murphy, Charlotte Rouse, or even Morton's Steakhouse.

That's an easy answer.  Because its pathetic that a mall that once was home to Structure, J. Crew, Banana Republic, Abercrombie & Fitch, Gap, Disney, Warner Bros., etc. etc. etc has to fill its vacancies with dollar stores.  This isn't all the fault of TC obviously, since they can't force people to choose to shop there instead of a suburban mall w/ the same stores.  At the same time, its extremely dissappointing to see what has happened.  Brooks Brothers is solid, and I believe recently signed a new lease, but they need a lot more to be viable.

Didn't it sign Forever 21 and Underground Station and another store? i'm just saying, go to Randall Mall to see how bad it could be. As far as the declining retail, what did they really expect with almost no one living down there back then, let alone people that could afford Versace and Fendi?
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: the pope on May 22, 2007, 07:18:09 PM
yes, two more very original and top tier retailers.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: KStay2 on May 22, 2007, 07:42:28 PM
I like to relate downtown Cleveland to Cleveland State currently, they're both commuter campuses.  CSU is known for not having much campus life because few students live on/near campus.  Downtown Cleveland is the same, a lot of people go down there to go to work, but don't spend much time down there other then work and the occasional sporting event.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: Mov2Ohio on May 22, 2007, 08:28:48 PM
yes, two more very original and top tier retailers.

Their not top tier, but you'd be surprised how many girls around my age go crazy for Forever 21, even driving to Columbus for it before they opened one in North Royalton and now Tower City. TC isn't attracting Louis Vuitton, but it isn't full of fly by night stores with plastic banners as their name plates either.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: Htsguy on May 22, 2007, 09:08:43 PM
Downtown retail is tough in all mid size American cities, especially in the midwest.  Most have no or just one department store.  Read posts on urban Ohio about the death of Center City Mall in Columbus or the troubles at Tower Place in Cincy (and Cincy has a pretty good retail core with their Saks downtown and Macys right on Fountain Square)  I read the Pittsburgh Post on line a fair amount and they are always doing articles about the recent desertion of retail downtown and what is being done to try and revive it.  Downtown retail has not existed in Detroit for years.  I may be wrong but I think the only downtown Dillards store in the nation is in St. Louis and they have over 200 stores.  I am pretty sure Baltimore does not have a classic downtown department store nor does Denver.  This is not strictly a "Cleveland thing".
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: ragarcia on May 22, 2007, 10:19:47 PM
Do we have a thread for Tower City that we can move these last posts to?

Anyway, I do know who owns Tower City and that is what makes my previous thoughts on the matter so frustrating to me.  I get annoyed when I hear they spend gazillions developing an ex-airport in Denver and won't do the same with the Scranton Peninsula...a housing development in that peninsula with briges to Tower City would do wonders for the mall.  Yet, instead all they do is whine and say how retail is dying in Downtown Cleveland.  Well, like Htsguy said, this isn't just a "Cleveland thing" and they are smart enough to know that.

In my view they had two choices:

1. Use their vast resources to literally "build" their clientele
   1a. By developing Scranton
   1b. Instead of doing that nasty parking lot next to Sherwin Williams, put housing
   1c. Build a real ampitheater with housing, etc instead of what they did
   1d. Partner with the other leech to build a housing tower in that parking lot in Public Square

2. Sit back and watch one of the most beautiful assets of the city slowly deteriorate

We all know what they chose.

Again, don't get me wrong, TC is an asset and I would rather it was successful, but under the current ownership even if they did get the convention center and medical mart, I just don't see them doing the right thing, which is option 1 (a, b, c, d, e).  And as long as they don't, TC will be relegated to second fiddle.  Maybe even third if Zaremba is truly succesful with what they are building.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: kal-el on May 23, 2007, 03:13:26 PM
wonder how this will affect things?

Official admits voting before studying
Posted by Tom Breckenridge May 23, 2007 15:26PM
A member of the Cleveland-Cuyahoga County Port Authority board says he didn't read two key reports before voting at a hastily called special meeting in late 2005 to declare the port's intent to take properties on the Flats east bank for a $230 million project.

Lawyers for land owners who are targets of the "taking" -- known as eminent domain -- say developer John Carney's admission in court Tuesday shows that he and other board members failed to "carefully" consider the key reports and the impact of eminent domain.

The statements came in the ongoing Probate Court trial over whether the properties can be taken and what the owners will be paid for them.

Read more of Plain Dealer Reporter Tom Breckenridge's story here
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: Mov2Ohio on May 23, 2007, 03:57:18 PM
wonder how this will affect things?

Earlier in this thread it was written that Wolstein has said he will go on with the project no matter what happens in court, so going on his word, this won't affect the final project. If he loses the case he'll just have to pay more cash for the land he needs.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: Htsguy on May 23, 2007, 05:34:55 PM
^I am not so sure about that for the simply reason that I don't think it is all about "money" like most of the "experts" following this case seem to believe.  If the court finds there are no grounds for a taking (phase one of the trial) they will not even go on to the jury part of the trial where valuation comes into play.  The property owners simply keep their property.  The majority opinion is that at that point Wolstein will have to come in and simply "over pay" for the remaining parcels he needs.  But I have this gut feeling that this is (or has become) more of a personal thing and guys like Tony George and Kassouf do not want to sell no matter what.  They want to become "partners".  I think ego is playing a big role in all of this.  At that point I would simply suggest hiring somebody in the "knee cap business".
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: KStay2 on May 23, 2007, 06:40:58 PM
If you were one of these owners would you want to sell?  Personally, if I was going to get a pretty penny, I'd take the money and look to invest it elsewhere and make money off of that.  BUT, if my hopes were to continue running my business, this is the best situation ever.  Wolstein is going to come in, develop the area and hopefully revitalize the area.  If I already own the property, he's doing all the leg work for me.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: kal-el on May 24, 2007, 09:26:35 AM
I don't see the issue with giving these owners some sort of "stake" in the project if they are unwilling to sell.  If you knew there was a chance your home or condo would be worth twice as much as it is now in a few years, would you sell now for a small profit?  I would certainly be hesitant.  The worry is that these owners will stand in the way of wolstein's plan.  If they are willing to play ball and go with the plan in place, then I don't see an issue with them being included.  That is highly doubtful since I am pretty sure they would want to do their own separate thing and that is where the problem is.  Wolstein won't pay an unreasonable amount for the properties.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: KStay2 on May 24, 2007, 09:41:27 AM
I think the issue really comes down to, what do you consider "playing ball"?  If Wolstein doesn't own the properties can we expect him to renovate the exterior of that property paying out of his own pocket.  The major issue I see coming up is when Wolstein wants the private owners to pay to match their properities uniformly and they won't spend the money.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: Mov2Ohio on May 24, 2007, 09:41:41 AM
I don't see the issue with giving these owners some sort of "stake" in the project if they are unwilling to sell.  If you knew there was a chance your home or condo would be worth twice as much as it is now in a few years, would you sell now for a small profit?  I would certainly be hesitant.  The worry is that these owners will stand in the way of wolstein's plan.  If they are willing to play ball and go with the plan in place, then I don't see an issue with them being included.  That is highly doubtful since I am pretty sure they would want to do their own separate thing and that is where the problem is.  Wolstein won't pay an unreasonable amount for the properties.


The thing about it is (As noted earlier in this thread) before they knew Wolstein was going to do a project, they were asking the county to lower the values of the property. Now they want more than what their property is worth. That's part of why their in court. He gave one of the holdouts a stake and maybe a few others, but maybe the remaining owners just don't want part of it now.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: w28th on May 24, 2007, 10:15:33 AM
Who would want Kassouff as a business partner in the development of a major piece of Downtown Cleveland?  That guy is a snake in the grass for sure, responsible for the FBI Headquarters and Channel 3 Building on Lakeside overlooking the Lake.  Highest and best use of the land, I think not.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: clvlndr on May 24, 2007, 10:36:00 AM
^I am not so sure about that for the simply reason that I don't think it is all about "money" like most of the "experts" following this case seem to believe.  If the court finds there are no grounds for a taking (phase one of the trial) they will not even go on to the jury part of the trial where valuation comes into play.  The property owners simply keep their property.  The majority opinion is that at that point Wolstein will have to come in and simply "over pay" for the remaining parcels he needs.  But I have this gut feeling that this is (or has become) more of a personal thing and guys like Tony George and Kassouf do not want to sell no matter what.  They want to become "partners".  I think ego is playing a big role in all of this.  At that point I would simply suggest hiring somebody in the "knee cap business".

I thought the issue was a potential unconstitutional taking without just compensation.  If that's the case, then even if they when, the holdouts can't just sit there and screw Wolstein for any price they choose or simply hold on to their properties, as you suggest.  If what Wolstein's offering now is deemed unfair by Corrigan and too low, then if he subsequently ups the bid -- post court decison -- to a level deemed 'fair' and acceptable, I'd think, theoretically, they'd have to sell or, this time, be the fair game for a justifiable ED action.

Per the Norwood case, interpreting the New London US Sup Ct case: the question surrounded whether property owners -- in Norwood's case: blue collar owners in a neat & tidy hood -- having a shopping developer, utilizing the power of city gov ED -- unfairly designating these properties as 'blighted' and,  thus, setting these poor folks up for an unconstitutional taking w/o just compensation.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: kal-el on May 24, 2007, 11:49:05 AM
That is a good point clvlndr.  The frustrating thing is that the more issues that pop up, the longer it takes for things to get done.  It is hard to be patient in this town given all the mistakes and teases of the past. 

From the PD today, nothing too exciting:
Live from Vegas: Shopping center convention wrap-up
Posted by Henry J. Gomez May 23, 2007 10:58AM
Categories: Breaking News, Economic development
One of the more peculiar scenes from the Council of Shopping Centers' spring convention in Las Vegas, which ends today, came at a Sunday evening reception sponsored by the Akron law firm of Roetzel & Andress.

Adam Fishman, whose Fairmount Properties LLC is lead developer on the $230 million Flats East Bank Neighborhood, exchanged a warm embrace with Tony George, one of the holdout property owners whose land could be taken by eminent domain.

Fishman said the two "really are good friends," just on the opposite side of things this time.

 
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: X on May 24, 2007, 03:05:20 PM
Any constitutional taking (Eminent Domain) requires "just compensation", which is set by the courts, not the buyer and seller.  If ED power is not granted, then the owners cannot be compelled to sell at any price.  Merely refusing to sell at a fair price does not, in theory, open one to eminent domain (though some would say that is what is happening here).  There has to be some "public use" such as infrastructure, or more controversially, blight elimination or economic development to justify ED.  What is and isn't a "public use" is the crux of most of the controversy over ED.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: glutmax on May 24, 2007, 04:13:34 PM
^^ Makes me think that a possible deal has already been discussed depending on the outcome of the trial.  Who knows?
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: jamiec on May 24, 2007, 05:00:48 PM
If a judge can't see the difference between the public use of a residential neighborhood with regional attractions and a strip club, we've got some real problems.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: superceleb on May 25, 2007, 03:44:04 PM
Flats appraiser says he was cautious
Knew Wolstein work could raise questions
Friday, May 25, 2007
Tom Breckenridge
Plain Dealer Reporter

An appraiser says he used an "abundance of caution" to avoid charges that he favored a former client - developer Scott Wolstein - while gauging property values on the Flats east bank for the Cleveland-Cuyahoga County Port Authority.

Appraiser Roger Ritley knew he faced potential ethical questions - the port authority needed the appraisals because it was bargaining with property owners whose land was needed for Wolstein's $230 million Flats East Bank Neighborhood redevelopment.

More at http://www.cleveland.com/news/plaindealer/index.ssf?/base/cuyahoga/118008239734110.xml&coll=2 (http://www.cleveland.com/news/plaindealer/index.ssf?/base/cuyahoga/118008239734110.xml&coll=2)
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: Punch on May 25, 2007, 07:22:42 PM
Developer Wolstein Testifies In Flats Eminent Domain Case

POSTED: 5:40 pm EDT May 25, 2007
UPDATED: 7:31 pm EDT May 25, 2007

CLEVELAND -- The eminent domain saga involving developer Scott Wolstein's vision for the east bank of the Flats continued in court Friday when Wolstein took the stand.

The developer wants to put up condos, shops and restaurants, but some of the Flats property owners aren't budging, saying the offer to sell to Wolstein isn't fair.


More at newsnet5.com
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: KStay2 on May 25, 2007, 09:04:36 PM
Gotta love Wolstein's response to the defense lawyer's questioning.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: MayDay on May 29, 2007, 11:47:59 AM
During my visit to Las Vegas, I was able to drop in at the ICSC (shopping center convention) and lo and behold, I found an updated rendering for the Flats East Bank project. Of course, I had my camera with me ;-)

Latest and greatest:
(http://www.clevelandskyscrapers.com/flatseastbank0507.jpg)

Original rendering:
(http://www.clevelandskyscrapers.com/flatsproject3.jpg)
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: the pope on May 29, 2007, 01:15:26 PM
i like how everything else (from the original rendering) looks like a prairie.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: 3231 on May 29, 2007, 01:38:29 PM
The only change that I can see is that Shaia's property is incorporated into the design and that the building to the north of the cinema has a few more stories added to it.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: X on May 29, 2007, 02:35:05 PM
The footprint of the office building within the Waterfront Line loop appears to have changed as well.  The Cinema, the attached building to its north, and the Shaia propery buildings appear to be a little further along in the design process, they seem less like generic massings than the buildings closer to the river.  Nothing in the set Mayday showed is truly consistent from one rendering to another though, so I am guessing that these are all still very loose concepts.

BTW, nice spy work, Mayday!
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: musky on May 29, 2007, 02:42:27 PM
What happens in Vegas... goes on UO.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: MayDay on May 29, 2007, 02:50:23 PM
Oh and before you ask, I wasn't able to make it to Stark's booth. :-(
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: 3231 on May 29, 2007, 03:01:10 PM
Wolstein still hasn't hired an architect for the project. He may go with more than one.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: cle2032 on May 29, 2007, 03:08:04 PM
Avenue District West...I mean Flats East Bank looks like quite the happening place :wink:
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: PPayne216 on May 29, 2007, 03:26:19 PM
MayDay, you didn't miss much.  Stark didn't have anything about the Warehouse District Plan at his booth.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: mrnyc on May 29, 2007, 04:28:50 PM
cool rendering photo coup by mayday. not too cool that it still looks like a generic off the shelf lifestyle mall. so far. wolstein please bring the dutch back for architectural consultation.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: peabody99 on May 29, 2007, 07:55:39 PM
cool rendering photo coup by mayday. not too cool that it still looks like a generic off the shelf lifestyle mall. so far. wolstein please bring the dutch back for architectural consultation.

most definitely. I am a little worried.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: Htsguy on May 29, 2007, 08:16:33 PM
As implied in a couple of posts, this has to be basically conceptual at this point.  Wolstein mentioned in his PD article that he will be hiring a number of architects and that this has not even occurred yet.  There is still a year and half of planning before any ground breaking for actual buildings takes place (the hope is that utility work can begin this fall).
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: w28th on May 30, 2007, 08:17:46 AM
^True, but does anyone think that it will be something drastically different than what has been shown thus far?  What has been produced to this point is the will of Wolstein, and having worked with them in the past, they usually aren't willing to reinvent the wheel if they've already paid to have it produced.

Yes please god, bring back the Dutch, or at least a compitent architect how won't let these renderings effect what will be produced.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: KStay2 on May 30, 2007, 09:10:34 AM
Well I'm sure the layout/placement of different buildings will stay the same, but the architecture can change quite easily.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: novusordo0205 on June 07, 2007, 08:46:07 PM
Interesting comments by the judge.  If nothing else, the posturing may get both sides to agree to something more rapidly so that the project can move forward.


Judge tells Wolstein: 'Settle this case'
Posted by kturner June 07, 2007 20:27PM

A probate judge declared that developer Scott Wolstein "made a lot of mistakes" in trying to acquire land on the Flats' east bank and urged Wolstein and the Port Authority to settle quickly with landowners.

Cuyahoga County Probate Judge John Corrigan recessed an eminent-domain trial Monday after hearing testimony that at least one Flats property owner was close to an agreement to sell to the Cleveland-Cuyahoga County Port Authority before the trial began, a draft transcript shows.

More at
http://blog.cleveland.com/metro/2007/06/judge_tells_wolstein_settle_th.html (http://blog.cleveland.com/metro/2007/06/judge_tells_wolstein_settle_th.html)
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: clvlndr on June 08, 2007, 11:18:01 AM
^well, Wolstein knows now what he has to do.  He said he's willing to move forward regardless the outcome.  Now he has a blueprint from the judge... Corrigan has tipped his hand and, frankly, I think his approach is the right one in getting the settlement completed and the project moving forward with all deliberate speed.  I think Wolstein should take heed of Corrigan's sage advice.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: Map Boy on June 12, 2007, 09:04:04 AM
From Crain's:

Settlement talks under way in Flats eminent domain trial

By JAY MILLER

2:58 pm, June 7, 2007

The Flats East Bank eminent domain trial recessed today as the parties negotiate a settlement.

Robert Stefanik, bailiff to Probate Division Judge John E. Corrigan, said this afternoon that the Wolstein Group and the Cleveland-Cuyahoga County Port Authority were negotiating a settlement with a group of hold-out property owners over land the Wolstein Group hopes to acquire to build a $230 million, mixed-use development on the east bank of the Flats.

  More at crainscleveland.com http://www.crainscleveland.com (http://www.crainscleveland.com)

********

Now I'm hearing that they've settled with all but one property owner.  Anyone else?
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: Htsguy on June 12, 2007, 09:42:00 AM
^No information in that regard.  The above PD article does seem to imply that George and Droe were the closest to settlement  (or at least were willing to continue to talk) and that Kassouf was still being his irrational self (you would think after 30 years he would get a clue).  So maybe those two have settled and the idiot continues to hold out.  Again, no firm information.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: Oldmanladyluck on June 12, 2007, 01:11:12 PM
Don't know if this belongs in this thread, but it has to do with the Flats East Bank...

A 'blue' Flats: Jackson proposes a strip club district
Tuesday, June 12, 2007Susan Vinella and Tom BreckenridgePlain Dealer Reporters
Cleveland Mayor Frank Jackson on Monday proposed the creation of an adult-entertainment district in the Flats to house up to three strip clubs, possibly including Larry Flynt's Hustler Club.

The district, a two-block area east of the Cuyahoga River and within a block of the proposed Canal Basin Park, would allow a move by the Hustler Club as part of a settlement with developer Scott Wolstein.

More at cleveland.com http://www.cleveland.com (http://www.cleveland.com)
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: metrocity on June 12, 2007, 01:51:53 PM
Love it....and good for the Mayor for addressing the issue frankly and with a creative solution.

Quote
Fran Geising, the general manager of the Inman mortuary and crematory across the street, said she's also worried that a strip club district would taint the image of nearby businesses.

"What will people say: 'Where are you taking grandma?' 'Oh, we're taking her to the adult entertainment district for cremation,' " Geising said.

A crematory is the only dissenting opinion the PD could find.  Little bit of a stretch.


Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: jamiec on June 12, 2007, 01:53:22 PM
Well, a certain poster by the name of Peabody seemed a bit peeved!

Why do you they have to call it a "strip club district?" That's not classy!
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: Htsguy on June 12, 2007, 02:03:07 PM
Very good news.  As I figured, Kassouff continues to hold out. 
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: Jax on June 12, 2007, 02:06:07 PM
The vigor with which Mayor Jackson has been handling the various strip club issues is a little surprising. Not necessarily in a bad way, it's just interesting he's apparently not squeamish about the topic. That said, I think creating a "district" is pretty skeezy.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: the pope on June 12, 2007, 03:34:39 PM
oh no, not a concentration of 'evils', what about the children!
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: MyTwoSense on June 12, 2007, 03:38:05 PM
oh no, not a concentration of 'evils', what about the children!

Truse "the children" can handle a strip club or two!   :wink:

Oh wait, you mean little kids- children as in "minors".

Personally, who cares what those non revenue generating, tax deductions think?!
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: jamiec on June 12, 2007, 03:46:04 PM
My mama always said, ain't nothin' good happens at the strip club!!!
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: math on June 12, 2007, 03:48:32 PM
Quote
"We have one major concern, and that's parking," said Joseph Buscemi, owner of State Fish, a wholesale seafood company on the corner of Merwin and Center streets.

how is it the property owners would be concerned about parking.  there are huge swaths of parking less than two blocks away.  brand new surface level parking with a view of the river.  just the thing for strolling after a trip to the strip club and the fish distributor.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: 3231 on June 12, 2007, 03:53:51 PM
yeah, I think that the fish distributor's worries are a bit unfounded. I would venture a guess that the two establishments keep somewhat different hours.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: cdogz on June 12, 2007, 05:20:30 PM
The combination of the fish distributor and the strip club district could produce quite a smell!!!
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: JDD941 on June 12, 2007, 05:46:32 PM
It's need a catchy name...maybe "Vagina Village"...
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: MyTwoSense on June 12, 2007, 05:52:46 PM
It's need a catchy name...maybe "Vagina Village"...
:-o :-o :-o
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: jamiec on June 12, 2007, 05:59:20 PM
Little Thailand!
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: jonmoxon on June 13, 2007, 06:16:11 PM
Getting away from the strip-club discussion for a moment, has there been any renditions of the proposed pedestrian bridge(s) between the east and west banks? Where would it be located? I would think it would have to be a lift-bridge, no?
This was thrown around on the Avenue thread, but it was mentioned that large-scale retail probably isn't the best idea for the FEB and that a better connection between the east and west banks would definitely help any retail that does locate there. I agree with this. My thought is, if I recall correctly, there used to be a swing bridge that connected both sides of the flats at main ave. Could this be done in the future? Has this been discussed? It would certainly help alleviate all the traffic having to meander through the flats and cross at center st. Why not make this proposed pedestrian bridge a "full-service" vehicular/pedestrian bridge. Seems to me you could solve a number of problems doing this. Of course it would cost millions, but why not think ahead and do it right? :clap:
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: KJP on June 14, 2007, 11:26:56 AM
I seem to recall Corna saying he wanted the pedestrian bridge to be built where the old Main Avenue movable bridge was located.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: Htsguy on June 14, 2007, 11:38:33 PM
I have a question which I am not sure anyone can answer for sure but here goes.  From what I can tell the trial has been put on hold after more than 3 weeks as the judge wants the parties to make another attempt at settlement.  The word on the street is that 3 of the 4 remaining property owners are close to a deal with Wolstein including the owner of the Hustler club.  But as part of the settlement with Hustler it appears that the owner wants to be able to move to this new "strip club zone" down the river.  As such the city, including the mayor and Cipermann have become involved.  However, legislation must be approved to go forward and this could take a couple of months given the committee hearings which must first take place and the slower past of things with City Council during the summer.

So my question is, since it appears that settlement with at least the Hustler property owner is contingent on the City approving the zoning change, which could take a while, is the Probabe Court willing to hold off on the trial mid stream for a couple of months while the parties see if this settlement contingency is realized?  Most judges I know would not mess up their docket like this.  Complicating things is that Kassouff apparently is not interested in settling so the trial has to go forward in any event even if the other 3 settle.  Just curious.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: musky on June 15, 2007, 06:49:27 AM
And then there was one:

Quote
All but one Flats owner settle in domain case
Friday, June 15, 2007
Tom Breckenridge
Plain Dealer Reporter

Developer Scott Wolstein is one property away from trying to turn a tired enclave of bars and clubs into a $230 million riverfront neighborhood on the Flats' east bank.

Late Thursday afternoon, a bitter eminent domain trial and months of hard-hitting negotiations bore fruit - a multimillion-dollar settlement among Wolstein, the Cleveland-Cuyahoga County Port Authority and all but one property owner.

More at cleveland.com http://www.cleveland.com (http://www.cleveland.com)
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: the pope on June 15, 2007, 06:57:04 AM
is kassouf ready to pay the subsequent property taxes on a parcel of land valued at 10 million?

I don't think so.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: 3231 on June 15, 2007, 07:06:16 AM
^you mean that those parking lots wouldn't make enough to cover the bax bill for a $10 million piece of land? ;)  Does Kassouf really want the County Auditor to call his bluff? :)
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: Htsguy on June 15, 2007, 07:18:00 AM
^I don't think so either.  I am sure the county would love to reappraise the property at that value and keep sending him a nice fat tax bill twice a year.  I bet that Kassouf only settled on the Fagan property because his partner (Khouri) forced him.  As you can tell from this post and others I am not a big fan of the guy.

Thanks Musky for the post.  It answers my question.

Now lets start doing the site prep. and see some real designs.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: Map Boy on June 15, 2007, 09:37:34 AM
Quote
Kassouf has asked $3.55 million for the land, said Steve Strnisha, a real estate development consultant to Wolstein.

The port appraised the site at $640,000. Kassouf lawyer Stephen O'Bryan said $3.55 million is what the port offered. Kassouf rejected it because he has an appraisal placing the value at more than $10 million, O'Bryan said.

This is very confusing...

So, Kassouf asked for $3.55 million, was offered $3.55 million and then decided he wanted more?  Or is this just written poorly?
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: jonmoxon on June 19, 2007, 08:24:06 PM
^ I was thinking the same thing. Anyone care to clarify this please?
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: Htsguy on June 27, 2007, 08:45:36 AM
A blurb in the PD's restaurant row column stated that BW3 on the East Bank of the Flats closed after 15 years.  Wonder what was behind the closing.  I know the East Bank is dead but the location was a close to many apartments and a short walk from many businesses.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: MyTwoSense on June 27, 2007, 09:12:06 AM
A blurb in the PD's restaurant row column stated that BW3 on the East Bank of the Flats closed after 15 years.  Wonder what was behind the closing.  I know the East Bank is dead but the location was a close to many apartments and a short walk from many businesses.
Here we go again.....
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: MayDay on June 27, 2007, 09:14:35 AM
No, it really is - that's not an inaccurate assessment. Now, in a few years, that might not be the case.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: MyTwoSense on June 27, 2007, 09:20:24 AM
I don't think it "dead" its in "transition".
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: Htsguy on June 27, 2007, 10:05:45 AM
I guess my bigger concern with bw3 closing is its specific location on River Road in as compared to the rest of the east bank.  Where the Wolstein development is going in, it really is dead and with the current demolition very uninviting in its current state.  In contrast, bw3 was a long standing business in a location that is practically minutes, if not seconds from at lease 900 residences (Bridgeview, Crittendon Court and (just had a brain fart...cannot remember the name of the building where Constantinos is located)) and hundreds more just a few minutes away.  Also it is directly down the St. Clair hill from the businesses in the Warehouse District and close to a rapid stop.  There is still lots of activity in the area but recently we have seen the closing of Arhaus, Gilly's and now BW3.  It is has been a couple of years but I use to go there often for lunch and it seemed to have a decent crowd given all the other dining options people had.  That is why I asked if there was something more behind its closing than traffic (maybe a bad lease renewal or ownership issues).  Anyone?
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: KJP on June 27, 2007, 10:08:15 AM
The Flats East Bank is dead. The West Bank's pulse is still very much active.

But I don't have an answer as to why the BW3 on Old River Road closed. I recall several years ago that the owner(s) of that BW3 and several other locations got into some legal hot water. I don't remember what the charge was, and then again that was several years ago. So I can't tell you why it closed now unless they had to in order to pay legal bills, settlement, etc.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: MyTwoSense on June 27, 2007, 10:11:13 AM
Fine the east bank of the flats is dead!  :x
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: Edsiou on June 27, 2007, 10:12:49 AM
I bet there is going to be a full redevelopment of the east bank. Not only wolstein development. YOur looking within five years 75 percent of the buidlings will be new.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: KJP on June 27, 2007, 10:12:55 AM
Das ist kaput (see I learned something while in Deuschtland!)
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: MyTwoSense on June 27, 2007, 10:18:30 AM
Das ist kaput (see I learned something while in Deuschtland!)
sehr gut!
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: X on June 27, 2007, 10:19:22 AM
My guess would be that the retail gravity of the flats is declining with the demise of the upper portion of Old River Rd.  That lack of draw is sucking down the businesses to the south of Wolstein's project.  900 residences aren't enough of a market to make up for the fact that suburbanites aren't spending their money on the East Bank anymore, and there are more convenient options for the people working up the hill, too.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: Edsiou on June 27, 2007, 10:37:22 AM
Das ist kaput (see I learned something while in Deuschtland!)

Stari!!!
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: peabody99 on June 27, 2007, 01:00:27 PM
A blurb in the PD's restaurant row column stated that BW3 on the East Bank of the Flats closed after 15 years.  Wonder what was behind the closing.  I know the East Bank is dead but the location was a close to many apartments and a short walk from many businesses.
I am going to venture to guess the terrible customer service did not help. I actually think the location was pretty good (and too bad they could not hold out a few more years). It is kind of like Gilly's donuts closing. Why???
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: Map Boy on June 27, 2007, 02:25:23 PM
and Arhaus... I just can't help thinking that if they stuck it out a little longer... but hey, I'm not the one paying the bills!
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: clvlndr on June 28, 2007, 12:19:28 AM
Seems rather strange.  I don't doubt biz has dropped off w/ Wolstein's demo activities at the northern end.  Still, BW3 was always hopping with activity and customers, esp on game days/nights.  And if biz was was down, why couldn't the rest of the operation subsidise it thru the down times until, w/ Wolstein, it turns good.  BW3s a chain, after all, a national, successful one at that. 

I don't know all the niceties behind the scenes and can't dictate to any business owner to bathe themselves in red ink for the good of downtown... Still, this feels like yet another kick in the teeth... 1st Odeon closed; then Arhaus did its civic duty, much like Joseph-Beth books in Shaker Sq: they closed up and ran to the burbs -- JB did so  after a mere 2.5 years, no less.  Why bother if they're not really committed.  At least Arhaus stayed for a couple decades.  Seems businesses quit on Cleveland a lot faster than its citizens.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: peabody99 on June 28, 2007, 07:05:03 AM
that Joe Beth moving was a real loss to shaker square. I always thought business was great in there. with Arhaus, that was their outlet we used to enjoy checking it out. Again, it always looked like people were in there to me, at least on weekends. Last night  at a neighborhood meeting someone asked about all the empty space on EB outside of Wolsteins area and I guess it too is slated for development. I am sure this 35 page thread has something! Hustler needs a home and west bank residents are not getting farm fuzzies about the red light district next door, despite wishing the very best for Hustler and of course FEB. It is odd why a chain strip club- I assume many profits leave Cleveland- is being so heavily catered too when those that invested millions and are continuing to invest are being disregarded.  As I understand it Cleveland is full of large, vacant spaces that would surely welcome a business and not be in the front yard of areas where adult entertainment  uses would impact property values and visitors perceptions.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: clvlndr on June 29, 2007, 12:28:02 AM
^This small corridor where all these closings are/have occurring/occurred is outside Wolstein's footprint which, I thought, ends at the Main Ave Bridge... To my knowledge, there's no immediate talk of development in the immediate area of all these closings other than news -- I've only heard on UO -- that the Watermark is reopening (though I've seen no signs of this driving past there).  And if you're telling my Arhaus was buzzing, too, before it went out, it all really smells.  Whatever the reason, it yet another kick in the solar plexus by our civic-minded entrepreneurs to a downtown struggling on the comeback trail.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: Mov2Ohio on June 29, 2007, 01:42:42 AM
Didn't someone say they wanted to open a few new restaurants down there? If I remember correctly there was a PD article and a Crain's article. He wanted to open restaurants with "Cleveland flair." Not chains.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: gotribe on June 29, 2007, 07:03:04 AM
^Yes, I do recall that.  He is some investor from California that grew up in Cleveland.  In fact, i think he owns most of the buildings over there.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: peabody99 on June 29, 2007, 11:46:08 AM
^This small corridor where all these closings are/have occurring/occurred is outside Wolstein's footprint which, I thought, ends at the Main Ave Bridge... To my knowledge, there's no immediate talk of development in the immediate area of all these closings other than news -- I've only heard on UO -- that the Watermark is reopening (though I've seen no signs of this driving past there).  And if you're telling my Arhaus was buzzing, too, before it went out, it all really smells.  Whatever the reason, it yet another kick in the solar plexus by our civic-minded entrepreneurs to a downtown struggling on the comeback trail.
We were told on a community meeting wed pm about the adult district that there is smaller non wolstein development slated for that area of the EB (Jacksons chief of staff Silliman reported this) the reason they told us is b/c some people asked why larry flint club did not move into one of those many vacant buildings. In fact they liked the Odean.  forest city, Wolstein and others have shown there is a NIMBY for adult clubs. thats why they want to put it over by us b/c we are already there and do not have the choice anymore as to whether to make an informed decision about our real estate purchases.  For some reason we are to think this is ok though.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: jar3232 on June 29, 2007, 11:27:44 PM
Quote
BW3s a chain, after all, a national, successful one at that.

Not that anyone cares, but this was the 3rd oldest BW3, the original two in Cbus (which are closed), The Cleveland one was the first expansion/franchise followed by the one in Akron.  Bdubs is also on the list for the 10 fastest growing restaurant/food chains...

Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: From Heights to Harlem on June 30, 2007, 01:00:39 PM
I used to love BW3

What a lose, hopefully they will resurface in downtown soon.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: Map Boy on July 03, 2007, 01:24:37 PM
Odeon building finds a buyer
Posted by Henry J. Gomez June 29, 2007 16:29PM
Categories: Breaking News, Economic development

A Cleveland firm has agreed to buy the old Odeon concert club on the east bank of the Flats.

Telecom Acquisition Corp., also known as East Bank South, expects to close its deal in 60 days. Financial terms were not disclosed. The current owner of the 10,000-square-foot building at 1295 Old River Road is Live Nation Inc. of Los Angeles. The Odeon closed last year. More at cleveland.com http://www.cleveland.com (http://www.cleveland.com)
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: papahopka on July 04, 2007, 11:02:17 AM
It should be very interesting to see what this area looks like in 5-10 years or so.  Both north and south of the bridge.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: noozer on July 21, 2007, 07:18:15 AM
Flats strip district has support of Cleveland planners
They're still not crazy about the idea, but say city must redevelop east bank
Saturday, July 21, 2007
Tom Breckenridge
Plain Dealer Reporter

City planners support a strip-joint district in the Flats that's a short walk from a fast-growing residential complex and a planned park that will draw thousands of people yearly.

The Cleveland City Planning Commission voted unanimously Friday for an adult-entertainment district, but they were not happy about it.

The commission's vote acts as a recommendation to City Council. Mayor Frank Jackson asked for the new district, which would allow Larry Flynt's Hustler Club to leave the Flats' east bank and open near Diamond Men's Club. More at http://www.cleveland.com/news/plaindealer/index.ssf?/base/cuyahoga/118500741485590.xml&coll=2 (http://www.cleveland.com/news/plaindealer/index.ssf?/base/cuyahoga/118500741485590.xml&coll=2)

© 2007 The Plain Dealer
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: KJP on July 21, 2007, 07:21:14 AM
Haha - already posted at strip district thread in the travel/recreation section!
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: clvlndr on July 22, 2007, 02:51:29 AM
So what's the latest on Wolstein?  There's been a lot of talk about Hustler and the Strip area deal but, specifically, is Wolstein ready to move?  Does he have all the lots yet?  if not, how close is he?  Is there any kind of projected build date?  It's been rather quiet lately.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: Htsguy on July 22, 2007, 08:54:48 AM
^My understanding from the news and previous discussions on the board is that they are still working on the paper work for the settlement and that the approval of the strip district by the Planning Commission is key to the settlement.  I believe he has still not settled with Kassouf who is the sole holdout.  Don't believe this will hold up the project given the location of his parcels and I guess they will continue the trial if he will not settle (the judge will not be happy from what I can tell).

They plan to begin utility work in the fall and it will be a year before any construction.  So it will be the fall of 2008 before you see any cranes.  I am most interested in seeing the latest designs.  Hopefully we will get a peek before the end of the year.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: KJP on July 22, 2007, 04:50:04 PM
Htsguy is correct. Kassouf is the last holdout. His properties are the strip between Front Street and the railroad tracks, from West 9th to and including the old Fagans. The latter property may be a must-have Wolstein, however, for redesigning the Flats street grid. And, actually, Kassouf's property continues eastward along the south side of the railroad tracks all the way to West 3rd. Kassouf (along with his developing buddy Russ Khouri) was one of the landowners who signed on in partnership with Stark to build Pesht.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: clvlndr on July 22, 2007, 04:58:10 PM
^OK ... But didn't someone, above, say Kassouf gave Wolstein a figure, though it may be somewhat inflated?  Didn't it seem Corrigan, in suspending trial seeking settlement, essentially send the message that, after the disastrous (to Wolstein) Carney testimony, ED is a real longshot for Wolstein and that he'd better grab Kassouf's deal, as unpalatable as it may seem -- given the price and given shady Kassouf?  Also, doesn't the Flynt, strip-deal ratchet up pressure on Wolstein to just go ahead pay the (Kassouf) price and get this thing moving.  After all, it seems the whole city, most notably the Mayor, the Port Authority and downtown-oriented pols (esp Cimperman), have been placing a lot of hopes 'n dreams (and effort) on Wolstein and his project, now 2 years + 2 months from announcement, on a podium w/ then Mayor Jane Campbell...
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: simplythis on August 10, 2007, 08:42:47 PM
Does any body know the official name of Wolstein's Flat East Bank Project?  :-)
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: KJP on August 10, 2007, 08:47:09 PM
Welcome aboard, simplythis.

The official name in all of their press releases, etc. is simply this: "Flats East Bank Neighborhood."
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: simplythis on August 10, 2007, 08:50:12 PM
Welcome aboard, simplythis.

The official name in all of their press releases, etc. is simply this: "Flats East Bank Neighborhood."
Thanx
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: Edsiou on August 11, 2007, 12:44:03 AM
^OK ... But didn't someone, above, say Kassouf gave Wolstein a figure, though it may be somewhat inflated?  Didn't it seem Corrigan, in suspending trial seeking settlement, essentially send the message that, after the disastrous (to Wolstein) Carney testimony, ED is a real longshot for Wolstein and that he'd better grab Kassouf's deal, as unpalatable as it may seem -- given the price and given shady Kassouf?  Also, doesn't the Flynt, strip-deal ratchet up pressure on Wolstein to just go ahead pay the (Kassouf) price and get this thing moving.  After all, it seems the whole city, most notably the Mayor, the Port Authority and downtown-oriented pols (esp Cimperman), have been placing a lot of hopes 'n dreams (and effort) on Wolstein and his project, now 2 years + 2 months from announcement, on a podium w/ then Mayor Jane Campbell...

So if WOlstien wants to make a mark he would have to pay the price.

Is this not the same fella who wants to bring in a soccer team and have a county pay for the stadium. Another free loader,or a Forest city wanna be...

Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: jpop on August 15, 2007, 12:53:45 PM
I read a few days ago in the PD that Wolstein and Kassouf had until a date in the beginning of August to come to an agreement on the parking lot still holding up development proceedings. Does anyone have any updates on this? Are they going back to eminent domain proceedings? I've tried looking for the article of which I'm speaking, but have had no luck.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: 8ShadesofGray on August 15, 2007, 02:19:50 PM
Should hear something soon ... sounds like today was the deadline.

Community Briefs
Port Authority, Kassouf to meet
(Cleveland) Plain Dealer
August 4, 2007

The Cleveland-Cuyahoga County Port Authority is scheduled to meet next week with the last land owner facing eminent domain on the Flats East Bank. Businessman James Kassouf controls the last of 12 parcels that the port and developer Scott Wolstein need to acquire for Wolstein's proposed $230 million-plus redevelopment. The port and Wolstein settled an eminent-domain lawsuit with most property owners in mid-June. Cuyahoga County Probate Judge John E. Corrigan gave the port and Kassouf until Wednesday to settle or face the possibility of reopening the eminent-domain court battle over the two-acre parking lot that Kassouf operates north of Front Street ...

... More at http://www.cleveland.com/news/plaindealer/index.ssf?/base/news/1186216622124870.xml&coll=2 (http://www.cleveland.com/news/plaindealer/index.ssf?/base/news/1186216622124870.xml&coll=2)
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: 3231 on August 15, 2007, 02:25:07 PM
With the location of Kassouf's parcels, I wouldn't be surprised if Wolstein decides to go forward without the land.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: jpop on August 15, 2007, 02:27:22 PM
8/4/07 was a week ago Saturday. The deadline should've actually been last Wednesday?

Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: simplythis on August 15, 2007, 04:45:32 PM
Does anyone have an exact map location of Kassouf's parcels?  Can he do the project without those parcels? :|
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: MyTwoSense on August 15, 2007, 04:48:02 PM
Does anyone have an exact map location of Kassouf's parcels?  Can he do the project without those parcels? :|

Have you read early posts in this thread?  I know its a lot but it would be helpful to read the entire thing.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: 3231 on August 15, 2007, 04:49:51 PM
Does anyone have an exact map location of Kassouf's parcels?  Can he do the project without those parcels? :|

the eastern most portion (east of rapid bridge) of the land that is located on the southern side of the railroad tracks.

Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: KJP on August 15, 2007, 10:20:08 PM
And it continues west to near the Norfolk Southern drawbridge over the river.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: jam40jeff on August 15, 2007, 11:27:40 PM
Does anyone have an exact map location of Kassouf's parcels?  Can he do the project without those parcels? :|

Have you read early posts in this thread?  I know its a lot but it would be helpful to read the entire thing.

Give the guy a break...he's new here and the thread is 35 friggin pages long.  A simple answer might have done well this time.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: jam40jeff on August 15, 2007, 11:30:50 PM
Obviously none of us can know if Wolstein would be able to work out his plan for the East Bank without those parcels, but I'm going to guess he won't proceed until he has them.  He seems to want to build a big cohesive neighborhood and most likely would want/need control of the entire area to do just that.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: clvlndr on August 18, 2007, 11:06:08 AM
From the 08.04.07 PD ... should hear something soon ... sounds like today was the deadline.

Community Briefs
Port Authority, Kassouf to meet

The Cleveland-Cuyahoga County Port Authority is scheduled to meet next week with the last land owner facing eminent domain on the Flats East Bank. Businessman James Kassouf controls the last of 12 parcels that the port and developer Scott Wolstein need to acquire for Wolstein's proposed $230 million-plus redevelopment. The port and Wolstein settled an eminent-domain lawsuit with most property owners in mid-June. Cuyahoga County Probate Judge John E. Corrigan gave the port and Kassouf until Wednesday to settle or face the possibility of reopening the eminent-domain court battle over the two-acre parking lot that Kassouf operates north of Front Street. The judge pushed back the deadline so talks can continue between the port and Kassouf, who spends much of his time outside the country. The port has set the value at $640,000, while Kassouf has asked for $3.55 million, a consultant to Wolstein said. Kassouf has an appraisal of $10 million on the parcel, according to a lawyer for Kassouf.

http://www.cleveland.com/news/plaindealer/index.ssf?/base/news/1186216622124870.xml&coll=2

I think Corrigan made absolutely the right move in tabling the ED action, but it feels that Kassouf used the negotiation period only to jerk the the City/Wolstein around.  I mean, come on, the man's international travel is so important (f*ck Cleveland) that he lacks the time to seriously concentrate on negotiations to get this thing done?  ... as (he knows) important as it is to the city?  It's turning out with this guy, we've just wasted a good 3 months and that ED's the only thing that's going to solve this - it sounds like he and Wolstein are miles apart and no one's really moving.  But I really fear that, if Kassouf loses, he's going to appeal and tie this thing up even longer; and then, what about Wolstein's increased construction costs at that point? ... And to think, I really liked the guy after the promising Davenport Bluffs proposal that went bust; but he sold out to the FBI and Channel 3 (and look at the people-unfriendly crap we got at that location); and with this, I now view the man as more growth-sapping parasite.

Somebody tell me I'm wrong (I want to be wrong).  I recall Wolstein indicating that if he lost, he'd pony up the cash so he could get this behind him and move on.  Is this still true?
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: Htsguy on August 18, 2007, 12:16:36 PM
^You are NOT wrong.  Kassouf has been a major land holder in Cleveland for over 30 years and as far as I know has not initiated one single development despite all his puffing.  He is simply a land speculator and parking lot magnet (God Bless him...we are a capitalist society) and has done nothing for the city...in fact...he simply impedes others.  (A perfect example...(and I think he still owns the building)...after all these years what is the ONE vacant and unrenovated building on W 6th...the one attached to Spy bar...I am sure it has been vacant for close to 20 years on a very dynamic street...the only thing he has done is clean up the exterior and this only after years of prodding by the city).
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: musky on August 18, 2007, 05:27:47 PM
Slightly off topic:

The city has an ordinance that says something to the effect a parking lot can be present for more then a year (there is an option to extend it a year). This is only a few years old, so many lots are grandfathered in, plus it only applies to lots with newly demolished buildings.

Does anyone know what lots he owns and how long they have been for surface psrking?
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: Punch on August 24, 2007, 03:37:32 PM
Is there still infrastructure construction going on?
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: musky on August 24, 2007, 09:06:49 PM
So many questions - no answers.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: urbanlife on August 25, 2007, 09:33:54 AM
Is there still infrastructure construction going on?

i was through there this week and didn't see any work going on except for the bridge re-painting which had part of the road closed. 

demolition appears to have stopped as well, as i think wolstein owns more than what has been demolished. 
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: urbanlife on August 25, 2007, 09:44:15 AM
Slightly off topic:

The city has an ordinance that says something to the effect a parking lot can be present for more then a year (there is an option to extend it a year). This is only a few years old, so many lots are grandfathered in, plus it only applies to lots with newly demolished buildings.

Does anyone know what lots he owns and how long they have been for surface psrking?

No specific answer to what or how long owned.

The ordinance deals with temporary parking lots, which exists in section 325.03:

"(5) Temporary Uses. A temporary use shall not be subject to the provisions of this chapter if it has been issued a permit by the Commissioner of Building and Housing limiting its duration to two hundred seventy (270) days or less, or such a permit and no more than one renewal thereof for no more than ninety (90) additional days. Temporary "for hire" parking lots, however, shall be subject to the applicable requirements contained in Chapter 457 of the Codified Ordinances. "

so, this should mean that the "new" jacobs field parking lots that resulted from demo should be closed soon, and that even the HOB lot that they put in last year should be closed soon as well.

the thing about this ordinance, if it is enforced, is that it takes the value of a surface lot way down if it can't be used for parking and makes it potentially available for purchase or development at a reasonable cost.  key words here: if it is enforced.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: KJP on August 25, 2007, 12:54:51 PM
A little media publicity on the owners of specific, offending parking lots wouldn't hurt either. ;) But it would be helpful if some news tips are provided to remind reporters when the deadline(s) have passed.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: clvlndr on August 26, 2007, 12:10:01 PM

i was through there this week and didn't see any work going on except for the bridge re-painting which had part of the road closed. 

demolition appears to have stopped as well, as i think wolstein owns more than what has been demolished. 

Not good.  This is very frustrating for such a key project for downtown that began with such fanfare and promise.  Corrigan's deadline has come and gone and Wolstein appears no closer to getting these last parcels than when Corrigan ordered settlement talks. It seems the heat must be ratcheted up on Mr. Kassouf lest this thing get out of hand and Wolstein having to bail because of costs.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: KJP on August 26, 2007, 04:15:01 PM
Why don't they just demolish Kassouf's buildings? Based on the condition of other properties he owns, I doubt he'd even notice.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: Htsguy on August 26, 2007, 09:58:07 PM
If I recall, Wolstein indicated that he would like to begin infrastructure work in the fall (2007) with actually construction of buildings to begin one year later (fall of 2008)(I don't even think design work is completed yet).  I suggest we at least let the first dead line pass with no progress before we start having babies.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: musky on August 29, 2007, 06:40:32 AM
pd:
Flats project a step closer
Wolstein gets deal on last parcel

Wednesday, August 29, 2007
Tom Breckenridge
Plain Dealer Reporter

A much-anticipated riverside neighborhood on the east bank of the Flats is a step closer to taking shape, and could be ready for business by 2010.

Developer Scott Wolstein has settled with the owner of the last piece of land needed for his project, according to Cuyahoga County Probate Judge John E. Corrigan.

More at http://www.cleveland.com/news/plaindealer/index.ssf?/base/cuyahoga/1188376469105410.xml&coll=2 (http://www.cleveland.com/news/plaindealer/index.ssf?/base/cuyahoga/1188376469105410.xml&coll=2)
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: MyTwoSense on August 29, 2007, 06:44:50 AM
whew.    Hopefully we can see some activity by next summer/late summer
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: Mov2Ohio on August 29, 2007, 06:56:52 AM
Proposed Heinens, hmm, first thing I've heard about that, but maybe I just wasn't paying close enough attention.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: musky on August 29, 2007, 06:59:55 AM
Do you think demo will start on Hustler before they move to the other end of the flats?
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: MyTwoSense on August 29, 2007, 07:01:51 AM
I missed that, I need to put the eyeballs on.  I like Heinens grocery stores.  Thats a good thing.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: lewarctj on August 29, 2007, 07:39:45 AM
I wonder what type of impact the current mortgage "Crisis" and available homes for sale will have on this project.  It seems that this is the worse time in 16 years to be starting a project like this.

I really hope that the anticipation and excitement for this project will be able to overcome the doldrums in the market.  I wouldn't be surprised if the majority of these units go rental initially besides for sale. 
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: cle2032 on August 29, 2007, 07:40:02 AM
Is this Cleveland or Dubai?!  Between the Ave. Dist, Stark's WHD, and Wolstein's FEB, we're building "cities" from scratch all over downtown!  It's kind of cool but kind of scary too...Hopefully it's not a Crocker meets Legacy meets Eton (in terms of design).
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: cle2032 on August 29, 2007, 07:45:00 AM
I really thought we'd see Whole Foods and/or Trader Joe's in one of these projects.  Hopefully we do!
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: shs96 on August 29, 2007, 10:08:12 AM
Proposed Heinens, hmm, first thing I've heard about that, but maybe I just wasn't paying close enough attention.

I missed them specifically saying Heinens, but when reading those articlesa month (?) ago about Corna and Wolstein being in Vegas together for a development convention, in their plans they did have space reserved for a full service grocery store.

That would be a huge boost in growing downtown as a viable living area.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: MyTwoSense on August 29, 2007, 10:19:46 AM
I really thought we'd see Whole Foods and/or Trader Joe's in one of these projects.  Hopefully we do!

I like the fact that we are including "local" businesses in the mix.  Shows that local business leaders believe in the project.   

Heinens has high standards and is proven local business.  this gives them a leg up on a business with no local track record.  Current Heinens customers looking to relocate downtown already know the brand.  Makes for a good plan.  In addition, Heinens doesn't have one urban location and them moving into the city sends a huge message to suburbanites.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: Map Boy on August 29, 2007, 10:32:19 AM
It seems to me that a Heinen's in the FEB would be a) too large for that location, which is somewhat out-of-the-way in terms of access to a broader customer base and b) would kill Constantino's. 

I would think that a Trader Joe's or another 10,000 sf grocery could thrive in that market and wouldn't hurt Constantino's to the point that their demise would be a near certainty.

Also, this is not rocket science and it seems a bit messed up to me that the City would be subsidizing two projects like this (Bingham and FEB), yet will be cannibalizing one with the other. 
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: 3231 on August 29, 2007, 10:40:34 AM
I've heard that the Heinens will be about the size of Dave's in Ohio City. 

Regarding the death of Constantino's, I wonder if the hill will keep folks up in the WHD.. I

 If Stark is able to add a bunch of residents in the WHD, then I could see Constantinos and Heinens surviving. Constantino's would need to further adapt to find a niche that Heinens wouldnt fill (movie rentals, etc). But then again, who knows what Stark has up his sleeve.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: MyTwoSense on August 29, 2007, 11:01:59 AM
I've heard that the Heinens will be about the size of Dave's in Ohio City. 

Regarding the death of Constantino's, I wonder if the hill will keep folks up in the WHD.. I

 If Stark is able to add a bunch of residents in the WHD, then I could see Constantinos and Heinens surviving. Constantino's would need to further adapt to find a niche that Heinens wouldnt fill (movie rentals, etc). But then again, who knows what Stark has up his sleeve.

Thats what I was thinking.  I believe there could be room for both.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: FrqntFlyr on August 29, 2007, 11:03:50 AM
It seems to me that a Heinen's in the FEB would be a) too large for that location, which is somewhat out-of-the-way in terms of access to a broader customer base and b) would kill Constantino's. 

I would think that a Trader Joe's or another 10,000 sf grocery could thrive in that market and wouldn't hurt Constantino's to the point that their demise would be a near certainty.

Also, this is not rocket science and it seems a bit messed up to me that the City would be subsidizing two projects like this (Bingham and FEB), yet will be cannibalizing one with the other. 

Those were pretty much my thoughts as well.  I don't see a grocery store as big as Heinen's being necessary or prudent for the FEB.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: Htsguy on August 29, 2007, 11:03:51 AM
The Heinen's they just built in Hudson is quite small (compared to their other stores) and has a prepared food focus.  Maybe the model for a downtown store.

Found it interesting that Judge Corrigan and Wolstein's mouthpiece say there have been discussions with Heinen's while Heinen's spokeperson denies any negotiations.  Obviously something he was told to say but he does look like an idiot in doing so.

As far as competition...isn't this America?
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: Map Boy on August 29, 2007, 11:15:32 AM
^If it were pure competition!  My qualm is not with one grocery store seeing an opportunity and going for it, perhaps at the cost of another business.  My issue is with the public sector subsidizing both projects. 

I agree with 3231.  Constantino's may have to find a new niche.  I certainly think they're in a better location because of the hill and the connectivity to the rest of the CBD.  Which is part of why I don't know about Heinen's opening up a OC Dave's sized (35,000 sf) supermarket down on Old (New) River Road.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: StrapHanger on August 29, 2007, 11:27:56 AM
I wonder if a new niche for Constantino's could be a move to lower Euclid or Prospect to serve the office population and the E4th and Gateway residents.  Seems unlikely after all the money that was spent to build out their current space, but would be a pretty nice addition to the other side of downtown.

As for Heinens, I wonder if the developer is going to treat it as a loss leader to draw residents to his apartments.  Will it really have the parking to draw a customer base large enough to support it otherwise?  Anyone who mentions the waterfront line in response to that question will be slapped.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: MyTwoSense on August 29, 2007, 11:34:08 AM
I wonder if a new niche for Constantino's could be a move to lower Euclid or Prospect to serve the office population and the E4th and Gateway residents.  Seems unlikely after all the money that was spent to build out their current space, but would be a pretty nice addition to the other side of downtown.

As for Heinens, I wonder if the developer is going to treat it as a loss leader to draw residents to his apartments.  Will it really have the parking to draw a customer base large enough to support it otherwise?  Anyone who mentions the waterfront line in response to that question will be slapped.

The waterfront line!  What?!

I think constantino's could still serve the southern Warehouse District folks and stay open 24 hours.  They will really have to know the area and its customers.  I mean we have two grocery stores over here.  Also, in Harlem there is a large pathmark, well now two, and still smaller grocery stores so that people have options. 

I don't think we should start a "constantino's death spiral" thread just yet.

Heinens a traditional grocery store that stays open until 9 pm or so, Constantinos we're here for you 24-7.  there's room for everyone.  In addition, Stark wouldn't need to build a grocery store.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: jpop on August 29, 2007, 11:34:09 AM
I wonder if a new niche for Constantino's could be a move to lower Euclid or Prospect to serve the office population and the E4th and Gateway residents.  Seems unlikely after all the money that was spent to build out their current space, but would be a pretty nice addition to the other side of downtown.

I was wondering about that, too. It would be cool to have a small grocer more on the east side of downtown. If Heinen's opens up as rumored, it might be a better option for Constantino's than closing entirely, if it should ever come to that, I guess.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: StrapHanger on August 29, 2007, 11:53:25 AM
I don't think we should start a "constantino's death spiral" thread just yet.

For sure.  I hope this Heinens comes on line soon...but Constantino's shouldn't feel any breathing on the back of it's neck for a while.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: Htsguy on August 29, 2007, 11:53:33 AM
OK, what I really want to know is when are we going to see some design renderings (so we can really go crazy).  At least let us know who are some of the site planners and architects (as I believe Wolstein said there were going to be multiple architects).
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: jpop on August 29, 2007, 11:54:58 AM
Yeah. I'd also love to know what the other retail elements will be.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: Mov2Ohio on August 29, 2007, 01:54:33 PM
Remember apparently he's already signed on a Bernie Kosar steak House and a movie theater.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: Avogadro on August 29, 2007, 02:04:41 PM
As for Heinens, I wonder if the developer is going to treat it as a loss leader to draw residents to his apartments.

Rent for supermarkets in shopping centers are already consistent with the loss-leader market; if I recall correctly, somewhere in the neighborhood of half the cost per square foot as other stores in the same center.  So, it would be pretty much understood that Wolstein would take a loss in rent from Heinen's only to recoup it from the other parts of the development.  By the bye, this is also why you hardly ever see new free-standing supermarkets; it's so much cheaper for a chain to lease from a developer.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: Map Boy on August 29, 2007, 02:27:58 PM
Remember apparently he's already signed on a Bernie Kosar steak House and a movie theater.

Bernie sounds locked in, but I'm still waiting for something more solid on the movie theater...
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: superceleb on August 29, 2007, 02:56:04 PM
When I was living in Stonebridge, I never really thought of Constantino's as a grocery store. I thought of it more as a high end convenience store. I would grocery shop at Dave's, but regularly buy prepared food/beer/wine/etc from Constantino's. If I needed just an item or 2 I would run over there. Had there been a Heinen's, I still would have gone to Constantino's for the same reason.

My friend that lives in Bingham is the same way. It seemed that everytime I was over there, there was a steady flow of people between Bingham and Constantino's.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: peabody99 on August 29, 2007, 03:08:12 PM
I wonder if a new niche for Constantino's could be a move to lower Euclid or Prospect to serve the office population and the E4th and Gateway residents.  Seems unlikely after all the money that was spent to build out their current space, but would be a pretty nice addition to the other side of downtown.

I was wondering about that, too. It would be cool to have a small grocer more on the east side of downtown. If Heinen's opens up as rumored, it might be a better option for Constantino's than closing entirely, if it should ever come to that, I guess.
Can't Constantinos and Dave's on Payne fill that need?  I dont get why people don't seem to aknowledge Daves-esp the eastside one. between the Market and Daves (OC) and the same  wine gaps that superceleb mentioned that can be meet at Constantino's, I wonder why the cry for Heinens remains so strong.  If I am ever out that way (heinens in rocky river), the one thing I end up really needing that I can't find around here is fresh, inexpensive flowers. 
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: X on August 29, 2007, 03:51:59 PM
Let's not forget Reserve Square Market.  It is being expanded to 30,000 ft, and at that size will be larger than the OC Dave's.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: StrapHanger on August 29, 2007, 04:25:54 PM
Can't Constantinos and Dave's on Payne fill that need?  I dont get why people don't seem to aknowledge Daves-esp the eastside one. between the Market and Daves (OC) and the same  wine gaps that superceleb mentioned that can be meet at Constantino's, I wonder why the cry for Heinens remains so strong.  If I am ever out that way (heinens in rocky river), the one thing I end up really needing that I can't find around here is fresh, inexpensive flowers. 

I think the niche people have in mind (or at least I did) is one in close walking distance to the Gateway/4th St. hood.  Dave's is a bit far east to fill that slot and I'd think Constantino's is a bit far west (esp. in Nov-March).  Maybe I'm just lazy though.

The Reserve Square market on the other hand might already fill this need, but perhaps there would still be a market for the high end/prepared stuff of Constantinos if it is located a little more centrally?  We shall see.  I hope.

Slightly off topic and already covered in years past, but speaking of Dave's, the OC one is bugging me more and more.  Would have been so much cooler to build something on its roof (or put the parking up there), or at the very least make it's rear end a little more friendly to the otherwise great intersection where Light Bistro is.  Sorry.  Back to FEB.  I too am eager to see some more renderings.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: musky on September 10, 2007, 07:15:44 AM
Crain's:

Quote
$1M loan from county to help clean Flats lot

By JAY MILLER

4:30 am, September 10, 2007

The Flats East Bank development has won a $1 million Cuyahoga County brownfield loan to clean up the former Shaia’s parking lot that runs between Front Street and Main Avenue.

The county will forgive $450,000 of the 6% loan if the developer, the Wolstein Group, completes the environmental cleanup to Ohio EPA standards.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: Punch on October 11, 2007, 09:56:35 AM
Any news?
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: KJP on October 11, 2007, 03:20:44 PM
Come to think of it, yes. According to the latest issue of the Flats Oxbow Association newsletter, the Northeast Ohio Regional Sewer District during the week of Sept. 17 approved spending $8 million from a recent bond issue for sewer improvements associated with the FEB.

The newsletter read: "Wolstein will construct the sewer project within a construction agreement with the Port Authority, acting as agent for the sewer district. The sewer district will approve design and construction. New sewer systems are needed, explained a sewer district document of Sept. 12, because 'the project will completely realign Old River Road north of the Main Avenue Bridge, and will also realign the west end of Front Avenue. The city plans to completely level the entire area, re-grade it, and construct new roads with all new utilities, including separate sanitary and storm sewers.'

"A recommended alternative developed by the sewer district would jump the cost to $9 million. It would move the present pump station on Old River Road northeast along Front Avenue to the corner of Front and West 10th St. It would require complete reconstruction of the new pump station."

At least that's what the Flats Oxbow Association's newsletter says.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: Hts121 on October 11, 2007, 03:48:42 PM
With the ED, demolition and other movement towards this project, it really sounds to be a go... unlike Pesht which is becoming "iffy".  The difference is, in its present state, the surface lots in the WHD have earning value.... FEB has none until Wolstein re-develops.

The only thing that I wonder is whether a design has been approved.  I have seen pictures, but each of them seem like different concepts. 

Scale has got to be an issue as well.  Is Wolstein going to do this project in one big construction phase or will it be split up into several phases??
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: 3231 on October 11, 2007, 03:51:41 PM
^the current design has yet to be released to the public. Its similar to the last one that we saw, but a bit better (imho).
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: Punch on October 11, 2007, 04:00:39 PM
The city plans to completely level the entire area, re-grade it,

Wow
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: surfohio on October 12, 2007, 09:11:50 AM
"....all new utilities, including separate sanitary and storm sewers."


Thank goodness. Another big step toward removing raw sewage from our drinking water.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: X on October 12, 2007, 09:20:04 AM
^the current design has yet to be released to the public. Its similar to the last one that we saw, but a bit better (imho).

When might the design be released?
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: 3231 on October 12, 2007, 09:28:13 AM
^no idea.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: KJP on October 12, 2007, 10:31:25 AM
"....all new utilities, including separate sanitary and storm sewers."


Thank goodness. Another big step toward removing raw sewage from our drinking water.


Older (pre-1900) sewer systems often had the two flows in the same pipes and dumped directly into rivers, lakes or oceans without treatment. Boston's still does when there's overflow during storms. I'm pretty sure the storm and sanitary sewers in the Flats goes to a treatment plant before the flow was dumped back into Lake Erie, else why have the old pumping station in the Flats to get the flow back up the hill into the city? If there was no pumping station, the flow would simply dump into the river.

Even until recent decades, sanitary and storm sewer lines were placed in the same trench, so if there was a heavy thunderstorm, water risked leaking into the sanitary sewers and would back up into basements and toilets, causing flooding in homes. Today, the practice is to bury the sanitary and sewer lines in separate trenches. I suspect that's what's going to happen in the Flats.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: musky on October 13, 2007, 09:04:44 AM
pd:

Quote
Feds reject proposed Flats building
Saturday, October 13, 2007
Stephen Koff
Plain Dealer Bureau Chief

Washington- The federal government does not want to use a new privately owned office building proposed for the Flats, saying on Friday it will be cheaper to retrofit the Anthony J. Celebrezze Federal Building and keep most of its payroll workers there.
More at cleveland.com http://www.cleveland.com (http://www.cleveland.com)



Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: StrapHanger on October 13, 2007, 09:19:18 AM
^Wow, the GSA folks sound like a bunch of clowns.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: KJP on October 13, 2007, 12:13:24 PM
The GSA, like many government agencies, has their criteria du jour. That doesn't make them any less the clown, however.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: willyboy on October 14, 2007, 10:34:50 AM
Im confused if this is good or bad.  I would think that it would be more important for them to fill up the Fed. building than to occupy a building on an island on the FEB.  Maybe another case of this being an ingredient to make the FEB project feasable/doable for Wolstein..?
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: clvlndr on October 15, 2007, 11:39:06 PM
^... or does GSA now simply believe that retrofitting Celebrezze, as opposed to entering a new FEB building where rapid transit directly feeds it with more people, and hence more potential terrorists, is the lesser of 2 financial and logistical evils?
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: surfohio on October 16, 2007, 08:29:20 AM
Good. I don't want to see the FEB clogged up with 9-5 offices anyway. They're a recipe for a ghost town.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: KStay2 on October 16, 2007, 09:15:00 AM
After seeing the amount of use / lack of use of the Waterfront Rapid extension.. I really hope that incorporating the Rapid into the central design is a focus.. I just hope it isn't ignore and therefore its potential wasted.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: mrnyc on October 16, 2007, 09:34:53 AM
does that mean the proposed northern end building within where the rapid loops around is now a dead issue?
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: w28th on October 16, 2007, 09:43:20 AM
That was a horrible place for an office building anyways.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: zippo on October 16, 2007, 02:43:30 PM
Scope of planned Flats development grows

By JAY MILLER

2:20 pm, October 16, 2007

The developers of the proposed Flats East Bank mixed-use project today unveiled updated plans that highlight the prospect of additional office and residential space.

Adam Fishman, a principal of Fairmount Properties LLC, which is partnering with the Wolstein Group on the riverfront project, said during Tuesday morning’s Cleveland-Cuyahoga County Port Authority board meeting that the project now might include two, 400,000-square-foot office buildings instead of one and that the number of housing units planned for the project has risen to between 500 and 600 from 350 as more units are planned for mid-rise buildings than for townhouses.

More at crainscleveland.com http://www.crainscleveland.com (http://www.crainscleveland.com)
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: Florida Guy on October 16, 2007, 02:50:41 PM
^ Where is that from? Any updated renderings?
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: Punch on October 16, 2007, 02:56:45 PM
$400 million!
18 months!


holy cr*p, this project keeps getting better
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: 8ShadesofGray on October 16, 2007, 03:07:16 PM
... with the caveat that the housing component would appear over the next five to eight years. Still, good news. I wonder if this is the result of specifically secured tenants or the realizations that we might be moving toward a Pesht v. Flats East Bank type v. Jacobs tower situation.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: zippo on October 16, 2007, 03:07:22 PM
Crains. Isn't one of the law firms whose lease is up, Wolstein's law firm?
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: StrapHanger on October 16, 2007, 04:37:24 PM
^Don't think so.  If Wolstein is a lawyer, I don't think he still practices.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: urbanlife on October 16, 2007, 04:45:04 PM
^Don't think so.  If Wolstein is a lawyer, I don't think he still practices.

i thought the post was referring to the law firm that wolstein is using for his real estate activities, namely Baker, whose lease is up.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: StrapHanger on October 16, 2007, 04:49:39 PM
^Oops.  Sorry zippo, good question.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: Cleveland on October 26, 2007, 08:19:56 PM
what is going on in the flats?? all of a sudden there is no news on it does anyone have anything??
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: 3231 on October 26, 2007, 09:25:38 PM
^there was some big news last week. The project is moving along quite nicely behind the scenes.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: peabody99 on October 27, 2007, 08:32:20 AM
well ???  It is nice that you let us know periodically you are in the know and we are not  :roll: but you gotta give back some time!
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: Mov2Ohio on October 27, 2007, 08:35:14 AM
well ???  It is nice that you let us know periodically you are in the know and we are not  :roll: but you gotta give back some time!

The info was and is in this thread people!!!
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: peabody99 on October 27, 2007, 08:45:49 AM
Oh I thought there was MORE info "behind the scenes" you know!
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: Mov2Ohio on October 27, 2007, 09:52:50 AM
Oh I thought there was MORE info "behind the scenes" you know!

I got ya, and you're right, there probably is a lot more we don't know
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: jamiec on October 27, 2007, 11:37:43 AM
I thought Wolstein's looking into buying a stake in Crocker Park and Bob Stark's unhappy reaction pretty interesting, I wonder if it has any implications downtown since the two of them are competing for the same stuff.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: lewarctj on October 27, 2007, 11:41:56 AM
that FEB project is definitely moving forward and it WILL happen.  Wolstein and The City of Cleveland have already speant millions of dollars and is committed to millions more in bank debt.  This is one project that definitley is going to happen - the scale of it is the one thing that may change. 
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: peabody99 on October 27, 2007, 11:52:01 AM
^ Oh I agree. It better happen. I have a triple X nuddie bar about to break ground in my already successful community to make room for this nicer and newer neighborhood that is supposed to be good for me...
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: twok2lcdcnc on October 28, 2007, 01:54:14 PM
^ Oh I agree. It better happen. I have a triple X nuddie bar about to break ground in my already successful community to make room for this nicer and newer neighborhood that is supposed to be good for me...

Sad, but true. I feel your pain. I'm moving into my condo in a couple weeks :(
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: peabody99 on October 28, 2007, 02:52:23 PM
Welcome! We hope to meet you in the nabe some time!
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: jpop on October 28, 2007, 04:25:34 PM
A new Flats means big money - some of it yours
Posted by Tom Breckenridge October 28, 2007 16:23PM
Categories: Breaking News, Impact

On the Flats' east bank, developer Scott Wolstein wants to finish smashing much of the one-time party district to the ground, and build an elegant, riverside neighborhood in its place.

Our elected and business leaders say the $400 million project is critical to downtown's resurgence.

They anticipate a bustling magnet for new business, and a cool enclave for young professionals and baby boomers to put down their roots and wealth.

More at cleveland.com http://www.cleveland.com (http://www.cleveland.com)
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: Htsguy on October 28, 2007, 06:59:06 PM
Thanks for posting the article Jpop.  It is chock full of new information and should help answer many of the questions recently raised in this thread (although I am sure it will generate scores more).
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: KJP on October 28, 2007, 08:53:32 PM
I'm sure we will!
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: Florida Guy on October 29, 2007, 08:34:40 AM
Larger graphic of above:

http://www.cleveland.com/news/wide/flats1029.jpg (http://www.cleveland.com/news/wide/flats1029.jpg)

Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: jpop on October 29, 2007, 12:03:46 PM
I'm excited there's progress on this thing.

And I hate to be critical, but does anyone else think it looks like a suburban strip mall so far?
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: the pope on October 29, 2007, 12:11:23 PM

And I hate to be critical, but does anyone else think it looks like a suburban strip mall so far?

the renderings? the torn down buildings? your mom? I'm confused....
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: jpop on October 29, 2007, 12:12:52 PM
I'm referring to the above renderings.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: gotribe on October 29, 2007, 12:15:48 PM
I'm excited there's progress on this thing.

And I hate to be critical, but does anyone else think it looks like a suburban strip mall so far?

A little bit.  I just want to feel like I'm downtown when I go there, not in Crocker Park.  That's why I am hoping the larger office buildings get built down there.  It will probably look a little bit like a Las Olas in Fort Lauderdaule than....Florida Guy?
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: blinker12 on October 29, 2007, 12:31:12 PM
I'm excited there's progress on this thing.

And I hate to be critical, but does anyone else think it looks like a suburban strip mall so far?

Don't worry, that's just a conceptual drawing to give an idea of massing. What's built won't look like that, I have it on authority from a good source!
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: Florida Guy on October 29, 2007, 12:31:58 PM
I think you are talking about the Las Olas Riverfront development (not Las Olas Blvd). It is hard to tell from the graphic but I don't necessarily see "strip mall."
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: jpop on October 29, 2007, 12:37:48 PM
Well, that's what made me worry. The most recent graphic and the one Florida Guy just posted now look very different. And gotribe voiced a concern I had based on the new graphic. It didn't look very urban, and it certainly didn't echo the Flats' industrial past at all. Not sure if their plans are to do that at all, but it would be nice to see that because I feel like that's what has always made The Flats so unique.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: Florida Guy on October 29, 2007, 12:41:45 PM
Also gotribe, riverfront has very little or no office space and no residential.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: 8ShadesofGray on October 29, 2007, 01:08:47 PM
The Riverfront in Ft. Lauderdale is nice, but I get the sense that this will be denser, and in some areas, taller. The Riverfront also seems, as Florida Guy pointed out, to be much more single-use than this project, and the design is pretty consistent throughout, whereas Wolstein's project is supposed to have a range of building types (and possibly a range of architects) to make it look more like a natural neighborhood and less like a single "project" (even though it is).

Can anyone tell me if there are any plans for inter-connectivity to the buildings to the south of this project? I'm sure there's some thought about this, but I'm not in the know, and the renderings always seem to focus tightly on the boundaries of the project. Without connectivity, to the rest of the bank to the south, and up the hill to the Warehouse District, it just seems a bit isolated to me.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: gotribe on October 29, 2007, 01:26:44 PM
^That's the way I look at it also.  The Las Olas Riverfront development to me is so appealing being that it's is basically at the terminus of a beautiful Las Olas Blvd which is lines with restaurants, stores and apartments.  To me so far, the FEB project looks more like a destination location aka Crocker Park than an urban developement aka Pesht.  I am not saying don't build it, but I am waiting for the new renderrings.  I am guessing the up-swing in the office market and the downswing in the housing market has drastically changed the plans. 
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: 3231 on October 29, 2007, 01:32:05 PM
I'm excited there's progress on this thing.

And I hate to be critical, but does anyone else think it looks like a suburban strip mall so far?

edit: Blinker already beat me to it. 

The project now has some greater height to it than the skyscraper site's rendering.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: Florida Guy on October 29, 2007, 01:33:11 PM
They are seriously considering leveling riverfront and starting over with mixed-use. There are only about 10 businesses left in the entire complex.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: 8ShadesofGray on October 29, 2007, 01:36:03 PM
I was impressed with the riverwalk itself, as well as the new public art installation on the nearby green (can't remember the name). But yeah, the retail did seem a little sparse ... it looked like the restaurants were the only ones doing very good business. Not to be critical, but the atmosphere seemed very mall-like to me.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: Florida Guy on October 29, 2007, 01:42:02 PM
^ Riverwalk
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: MayDay on October 29, 2007, 01:48:27 PM
This is the latest and greatest rendering that I've seen:
(http://www.clevelandskyscrapers.com/flatseastbank0507.jpg)

Versus the old:
(http://www.clevelandskyscrapers.com/flatsproject3.jpg)
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: zippo on October 29, 2007, 01:58:08 PM
These rendering's are very preliminary and will probably morph into something quite different than what's been shown. I'm sure like Stark, Jacobs and the whole lot, they are waiting to see what office tenants they land, which could affect the whole mix of development. Wolstein seems very confident about landing an office tenant, unlike Stark.

I don't get why Wolstein is pushing the condo thing so hard if the apartments in the warehouse district almost have  have full occupancy. Another thing, the article really didn't say if he had complete control of the property he needs.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: Florida Guy on October 29, 2007, 02:09:35 PM
Developer Scott Wolstein has settled with the owner of the last piece of land needed for his project, according to Cuyahoga County Probate Judge John E. Corrigan.

Wolstein has agreed to pay $2.9 million to acquire most of a two-acre parcel, now used for parking by businessman James Kassouf, the judge said.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: peabody99 on October 29, 2007, 04:36:51 PM
it still looks kind of like cracker park to me. I guess I cannot visualize very well. It is true it is going to be all chain or corporate owned businesses there and few or no indep businesses?
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: jamiec on October 29, 2007, 05:51:17 PM
The article says it's going to be retail that will cater to commuter customers. What does he mean by that?
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: Htsguy on October 29, 2007, 06:00:14 PM
^As the article mentioned, there is apparently going to be very little in the way of general merchandising for various reasons so it will not be like Crocker Park in terms of national chain stores like the Gap, Banana Republic, Talbots etc.  Given the description of the retail, while it will not be your standard mall brands, it does not appear much of it will be local in nature (exception...a grocery store).

I do not see how we can really criticize or praise at this point.  I think everything out there right now is conceptual and is still evolving as suggestion by a number of posters above (Wolstein has said in the past he is using multiple architects).  I doubt that there is a completed design for even one building yet (and the site plan is still up in the air) although it seems that they are gettin close and we should be seeing "pretty pictures" soon.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: willyboy on October 29, 2007, 06:20:25 PM
Dont forget the Bernie Kosar restaurant. 
I guess that would be semi-local (flavor), even though there is one in Miami.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: Punch on October 29, 2007, 07:38:28 PM
was the grocery store Heinen's?

Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: 3231 on October 29, 2007, 08:21:34 PM
^you are correct. I heard that you'll be able to order your groceries online.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: blinker12 on October 30, 2007, 08:22:28 AM
it still looks kind of like cracker park to me.

I'll say it one more time, for those too (ahem) busy to read the previous page: These images are not designs, they're glorified massings. No architectural designs have been completed yet.
As for retail mix... There may be a few small merchandisers, but nothing on the order of a Gap or Sephora. From what I have heard they are planning to go after local merchants to give it a more authentic flavor.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: sooner on October 30, 2007, 03:01:20 PM
Also, they talk about 'an iconic' residential building at the mouth of the river....I don't see that in the drawings available.  Obviously these are just massings and shouldn't be judged yet.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: Boreas on November 05, 2007, 06:56:54 AM
Dont forget the Bernie Kosar restaurant. 
Menu:
Sack lunch
Humble pie for dessert
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: peabody99 on November 05, 2007, 12:53:08 PM
^you are correct. I heard that you'll be able to order your groceries online.
suburban type question: will there be any parking?  I  love Heinens (I need fresh flowers!!) but hope it won't put a hurt on my sweet Daves
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: 3231 on November 05, 2007, 01:45:34 PM
I'm pretty certain that there will be convenient short-term parking for the grocery store. I wonder if they will deliver groceries.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: w28th on November 05, 2007, 02:05:59 PM
The music that's played in the store alone makes shopping at Dave's just a little more fun than anyother store.  Damn that's some jazzy sh!t.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: Mov2Ohio on December 11, 2007, 02:56:38 PM
Saw crews out today doing soil testing. Guess that's a sign of progress.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: jonmoxon on December 11, 2007, 09:07:26 PM
Per my source on the Port Authority board, Eaton is on board with Wolstein's project. It will be among "$5 billion worth of construction kicking off next year" and lasting for the next 4-5 yrs across NE Ohio; "the biggest building boom in this region in 25 years". That is all the info I have to share right now. Thank you.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: Eparabola on December 11, 2007, 10:09:10 PM
That sounds good to me.  I really wish I had the balls to use a fake id in high school, since I heard so much about the great clubs and bars in the Flats.  But hey, I'll take residential too - anything's better than what we have now
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: From Heights to Harlem on December 12, 2007, 06:05:15 AM
That sounds good to me.  I really wish I had the balls to use a fake id in high school, since I heard so much about the great clubs and bars in the Flats.  But hey, I'll take residential too - anything's better than what we have now

Those summers in the late 80s were fun.  But now the East Bank, has turned a new chapter and hopefully this development will include a museum or exhibit, detailing the history of the area.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: KJP on December 12, 2007, 10:24:04 AM
For me, it was the summers, falls, winters and springs in the Flats, from the mid-1980s (I turned 19 in 1986 and therefore old enough to drink beer legally) until about 2000 when the Flats took a turn for the worst. I'd love to write a book about it sometime and include the experiences of others.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: musky on December 12, 2007, 10:34:41 AM
I've got a couple of stories about the Marborol Man sign and Riverfest.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: Florida Guy on December 12, 2007, 10:51:25 AM
Those where the days...
(http://i127.photobucket.com/albums/p142/michaelvandyke1/riverfest.jpg)
(one day I will scan & post the rest of the set)
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: Eparabola on December 12, 2007, 11:32:04 AM
i would love to see more pictures of that time
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: KJP on December 12, 2007, 11:55:25 AM
I may take on this project. I think there is enough interest in this subject even from beyond Northeast Ohio to make this worthwhile. Let me know by e-mail if you'd like to contribute -- Musky I KNOW you've got some stories from working down at the Aqualon/Whiskey/Smart Bar!
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: From Heights to Harlem on December 12, 2007, 11:59:50 AM
KJP, were about the same age.  I only mentioned summers because I was at Ohio State so the only time I could party in the flats was on weekends, a school break or the summer.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: MayDay on December 12, 2007, 12:02:37 PM
Folks... please...

(http://www.clevelandskyscrapers.com/brickwall.gif)

Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: KJP on December 12, 2007, 12:08:09 PM
I was at Kent State in the 1980s and Myers College (then-Dyke College -- hated that name) in the early 1990s. That gave me lots of opportunities (actually WAY too many) to visit the Flats. By the early-1990s I was going down there about a dozen times every month.

EDIT: Sorry MayDay. Back to development news.....
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: MayDay on December 12, 2007, 12:15:28 PM
(http://www.clevelandskyscrapers.com/pmbutton.jpg)
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: peabody99 on December 12, 2007, 08:42:51 PM
^please more folks come to forum meets. yes, normal, off topic, interesting conversation ensues. but oh no, only 6 people come while most lurk on here the internet, alone, hoping for social connection. Most rather go off topic here.  Jesh! no one is too geeky or autistic
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: Eparabola on December 13, 2007, 04:17:11 PM
Mike Trivisonno is currently interviewing two men - Fred Nancy and Dennis Roach - who, I believe, work for the Chamber of Commerce and Convention Bureau.  One of them said that they'll break ground at the East Bank when the weather improves (guessing they mean when there's no chance of snow)!!!

Nice:)
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: Florida Guy on January 09, 2008, 10:11:35 AM
Cross post from "Ohio Business and Economy":


#2 business trend to watch this year, from the Cleveland.com Real Estate blog: http://blog.cleveland.com/business/real_estate/ (http://blog.cleveland.com/business/real_estate/)


2 Downtown deals


Commercial development downtown might be a more uplifting antidote to the gut-cramping struggles of Cleveland's residential market this year. Between ambitious mixed-use projects aimed at revitalizing pockets of the center city and a game of musical chairs played by some of the city's biggest and most desirable office tenants, downtown could see changes around its edges and along its skyline this year.

The first building in developer Scott Wolstein's $400 million project to revamp the Flats' east bank could rise this year. Hungry marquee office tenants have been sniffing seriously around the project, pitting Wolstein against fellow developers including Bob Stark, Forest City Enterprises, John Ferchill and the Richard E. Jacobs Group.

Could it be the building nearest to the lake? The one in the center? Hum...

Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: MayDay on January 09, 2008, 10:20:42 AM
A close-up view of that building - I believe DFAS will be staying put in the Federal Building:

(http://www.clevelandskyscrapers.com/wolsteindfas.jpg)
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: Florida Guy on January 09, 2008, 10:37:19 AM
^ Oh yes, I forgot that was the proposed DAFS building. Thanks
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: KJP on January 09, 2008, 11:32:31 AM
My wager is that it will be built on the site formerly proposed for Lighthouse Landing, bounded by West 10th, Main and Front.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: Satchel_McKee on January 09, 2008, 11:47:18 AM
Might be just me, but that building looks a little too suburban-y...kind of reminds me of Wolstein's own DDR HQ in Beachwood...but I guess it's better than what's there (or not there) now.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: w28th on January 09, 2008, 11:55:38 AM
^Right.  Why not put the office building, you know, in the actual project footprint?
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: Satchel_McKee on January 09, 2008, 12:14:50 PM
^Don't get me wrong, that building is fantastic...if it was in Independence.  Don't these developers know what urban architecture is?  I know that we here are the experts - they should listen to us :-D

I know it's just a rendering, and it could change several times between now and the final product, but man, that's right on par with that other god-awful complex (which was thankfully never built), Ontario Pointe.

I'm as jazzed as everyone else about the possible construction boom, but let's hope that the Planning Commission aspires for something a little more iconic.  Now, if you were to stand the building on its end, then you might be on to something...
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: Florida Guy on January 09, 2008, 12:21:17 PM
Now, if you were to stand the building on its end, then you might be on to something...

I don't think a high-rise is appropriate for that area.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: Satchel_McKee on January 09, 2008, 12:27:19 PM
Now, if you were to stand the building on its end, then you might be on to something...

I don't think a high-rise is appropriate for that area.

Maybe not, but Wolstein did say that there was going to be an "iconic" residential highrise.  So if that's the case, I don't see why an office highrise couldn't go there.  I certainly realize that if a highrise were to go there, it wouldn't be 40 stories, if that's what you mean.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: willyboy on January 09, 2008, 12:40:50 PM
Yes, I think KJP has it that it would be on the Lighthouse Landing site.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: blinker12 on January 10, 2008, 08:39:10 AM
That rendering posted on the previous page isn't anything that's actually going to be built. It's just a glorified massing to help sell the project to potential tenants. As has been previously reported in the media, the first building to go up on the Wolstein site will be an office building on Main Avenue -- not in the RTA Loop site (though that could happen in a later phase).
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: sky on January 10, 2008, 08:42:50 AM
Blinker12, do you mean the Lighthouse Landing site at Main & Front & West 10th?
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: blinker12 on January 10, 2008, 10:41:27 AM
Main Avenue between W9th and W10th -- on the right as you're coming down the hill. Right now it's a big old parking lot.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: StrapHanger on January 10, 2008, 10:55:03 AM
Interesting.  This would actually be a pretty significant outlier from the rest of the CBD for a significant office tenant...though I guess proximity to the WHD and, eventually, the rest of Wolstein's project will make it feel less isolated.  If I were an office Tenant, I think I'd prefer being closer to Public Square (Stark's project or Jacobs) and the rest of downtown's business amenities.  But I'm not, so whatever.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: shs96 on January 10, 2008, 01:54:31 PM
I get excited everytime this thread gets a bump, but invariably, I end up being disappointed because it seems as this is moving at an even slower pace than Cleveland's standard exciting new project slowness.  I don't want "it may start" or "is expected to start" I want "will start".

To me, this is one of the most important projects going in NE Ohio.  The Warehouse district is great now, but neither it or anything else has rivaled what the flats was at one point.  And while this proposal is completely different (for the better) it has the potential to generate the same level of activity as before, but with more substance.  Why?  It has the one thing nothing else ever will - the river.  Not that the river itself is particularly exciting, but it provides Lake Erie boaters somewhere to go - it's an instant marina.  The are tons of boaters in a 75 mile radius of Cleveland and they will travel just to go somewhere with their boat.  And people who don't have a boat will go to places where they can watch boats/look at the water.  And you get local people coming in and out of downtown more, they will spring the idea that next time downtown, they to go to the theater, or try that nice looking restaurant on West 6th, or pop into Tower City, etc.  And in the middle of a yucky winter day, they'll go down to the flats to think about summer.  Sometimes I think this is overlooked.

But this thread started 4 years ago and we're still talking about the first building might start to be constructed soon.  I guess I'm just frustrated with progress.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: 3231 on January 10, 2008, 02:02:09 PM
shs96,

Until just a few months ago, they weren't going to be able to do much until spring 2009. Thanks to a deal with the strip club, major work should begin in spring 2008.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: surfohio on January 10, 2008, 02:56:37 PM


To me, this is one of the most important projects going in NE Ohio.  The Warehouse district is great now, but neither it or anything else has rivaled what the flats was at one point.  And while this proposal is completely different (for the better) it has the potential to generate the same level of activity as before, but with more substance.  Why?  It has the one thing nothing else ever will - the river.  Not that the river itself is particularly exciting, but it provides Lake Erie boaters somewhere to go - it's an instant marina.  The are tons of boaters in a 75 mile radius of Cleveland and they will travel just to go somewhere with their boat.  And people who don't have a boat will go to places where they can watch boats/look at the water.  And you get local people coming in and out of downtown more, they will spring the idea that next time downtown, they to go to the theater, or try that nice looking restaurant on West 6th, or pop into Tower City, etc.  And in the middle of a yucky winter day, they'll go down to the flats to think about summer.  Sometimes I think this is overlooked.


I think any pics from Riverfest would validate your post!!!!

Nothing beats being on/near the water.

Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: london on January 10, 2008, 04:39:29 PM
Agree with shs96.  I think the water (river) has the potential to make this the best project going.  However it has to be done right and none of the initial renderings (however true or not) are inspiring.  Hopefully, having a completely blank canvas as everything has been demolished will allow some creative thinking.

Further south on the East bank I've always thought the old Arhaus building would be a great building for condos.  That building has great architecture and views of both the river and the West bank.  This would create some one-of-a-kind pads.  Wonder if the current owner is considering anything like this?
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: mrnyc on January 10, 2008, 04:41:14 PM
shs96 i'm sure you know but i'll just say anyway that you aren't the only one who is frustrated about the slow progress. as you can tell by my handle where i live i literally have buildings going up on every block i walk on so when i check on here the slow pace drives me nuts sometimes. we all know how the flats were, so we're all frustrated no question.

you just got to channel the rev jesse jackson when you clik on here -- "keep hope alive!"  :laugh:
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: KJP on January 10, 2008, 07:53:22 PM
How long have some of those buildings been in the works, mrnyc? (meaning from first public mention of them to actual construction)
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: clvlndr on January 11, 2008, 02:12:13 AM
^^ shs96, I'm actually surprised Wolstein's moving as quickly as he is.  The original talk of 2009 or 10 "starts" was very frustrating.  But the strip-joint deal along with the apparent corporate office competition with Stark (and maybe even Dick Jacobs) seems to have upped the ante.  Ever since the settlement things have been moving rapidly … Most of the riverfront site west of Old River Road within the footprint has been cleared already with the old Fagan’s building seemingly ready to meet the wrecking ball any day now.  I, however, liked the dual tower Lighthouse Landing concept.  I hope, only, those high-rise residences are simply moved from the original site and not replaced by office buildings (which seems to be what people are saying), even though high-grade new office space would be nice for the Flats and downtown in general.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: Florida Guy on January 11, 2008, 07:47:18 AM
I think that it is important to point out that we are talking about an entire neighborhood and not just one building. This doesn’t happen overnight.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: cle2032 on January 11, 2008, 08:02:13 AM
Things happen overnight in other cities.  Why not here?  And from the looks of the renderings, the urban planning/architecture aspect of the project is not revolutionary and there are probably a bunch of case studies out there to help expedite this process.  Cleveland really isn't an enigma.  We make it one. :|

Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: X on January 11, 2008, 08:12:14 AM
Things happen overnight in other cities. 

Complex projects involving mixed use/environmental remediation/extensive property acquisition/demolition/complex, partially public financing happen in other cities overnight?  Where?  The urban planning/architecture phase is seldom what is holding up any development.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: 3231 on January 11, 2008, 08:14:11 AM
Things happen overnight in other cities. 
  LOL!  Cleveland negativism in its purest form.

Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: shs96 on January 11, 2008, 09:04:16 AM
Things happen overnight in other cities. 

Complex projects involving mixed use/environmental remediation/extensive property acquisition/demolition/complex, partially public financing happen in other cities overnight?  Where?  The urban planning/architecture phase is seldom what is holding up any development.

No, entire developments don't pop up overnight in other cities, but their progress is remarkably quicker.  The whole thing may not pop up overnight, but part of it seems to.

And since you asked for an example, I will give one I lived through.

When I moved to Dallas in 2001, the Mavericks were playing basketball in Reunion Arena.  The following basketball season, they moved into the new American Airlines Arena.  At the time, it was located by an old train depot, away from anything else downtown.  Basically there was nothing there.  But as that first year of playing in the arena closed, the next year pieces of property were bought around the arena and development started.  First was an apartment complex, then a restaurant, etc.  By the time I left in July 2006, the last piece of property had been acuqired.  TODAY, right now, there is now a large mixed use development complex with office buildings, rental units, condo/townhomes for sale, and the standard restaurants and bars surrounding the arena.  For anyone who watches basketball (or hockey) regularly, you used to have an open view of the arena with the fountains in front.  Now you look down this row of buildings.  The majority of it was not there when I left 1.5 years ago.  And yeah, it had been talked about for the 4 years prior to it actually happening, but during that time other smaller projects kept pushing forward and some noticable progress was being made.  And really, what did it matter if Cuban/Hicks (Stars Owner) gained all of the property they were after?  They still had a huge asset to build off of - the arena where the Mavs/Stars play.  So who cares if they didn't get property x, y, z...they were still going to build on property a,b, c because there was potential there.  Meanwhile, they continued to pursue x, y, z.

At the end of the day, the entire complex was built in 7 years.  And if you want to talk "pre-talk", Cuban bought the Mavs in January 2000.  The entire concept of the American Airlines Arena and the development around it was his idea.  The arena opened in November 2001.  So in roughly 2 years time, he designed it, worked through the minutia while building parts of the master plan, and completed it 8 years after it started.

Why does Wolstein have to wait out for Larry Flynt's Hustler strip club to start his project?  The asset - river/location to downtown - is there to build around.  How many press clippings did he say "the whole project depends on getting control of all the buildings".  That's crap if you ask me.

That's the difference, IMO, between Cleveland being the best city it is capable of being and it being what it is.  Too many people are fighting through red tape, squabbling over details, and being narrow minded rather than simply taking the situation as its presented and saying "OK, here is where I want to go, and here is where I am.  What can I do with what I have now?  What do I need to do to get it done?"  Why does it have to be all or nothing?  Does Wolstein (or insert developer here) not feel that if they only build part of their proposed project that other like minded people won't capitialize on its success?  I'm not saying it should be rushed into, but certainly it doesn't take this long to develop a great concept for development of that area  - I'm sure those on this forum could knock it out in a day or so ;)

And I don't think this is a case of "Cleveland negatisim in its purest form".  Its looking at the high level situation and addressing something that needs to be corrected.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: X on January 11, 2008, 09:20:10 AM
I don't think the two are really comparable.  The Wolstein project requires relaying the infrastructure for the entire area.  That is why he needs all the property, not just some of it.  He has to clean slate all of it to restart from the underground up.  Some of us, me included, would have preferred a more piecemeal approach, but that isn't what is happening.  In order to make this approach work, he needs all the land to start, and most likely he needs to develop all of it to make a profit.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: Florida Guy on January 11, 2008, 09:23:51 AM
At the end of the day, the entire complex was built in 7 years.

I'm not disagreeing that the process can't be improved. If we're going to compare then 7 years would be 2011 for FEB. If the ground is broken this year it should be completed by 2011 if not before.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: McCleveland on January 11, 2008, 09:27:33 AM
^^ As X points out these scenarios aren't comparable.
Quote
At the time, it was located by an old train depot, away from anything else downtown.  Basically there was nothing there.  But as that first year of playing in the arena closed, the next year pieces of property were bought around the arena and development started.
  As you noted they started building where there was nothing... which is immensley easier than working in an urban environment with existing buildings.  Everyone understands your frustration, but this project in particular is rather complicated.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: 3231 on January 11, 2008, 09:28:48 AM

Why does Wolstein have to wait out for Larry Flynt's Hustler strip club to start his project?  The asset - river/location to downtown - is there to build around.  How many press clippings did he say "the whole project depends on getting control of all the buildings".  That's crap if you ask me.


Because you can't rip up all the streets, sewerlines, waterlines, electicity, etc when there is a business operating there.

I don't understand how you can question the site control issue? If you don't own the buildings, the judge hints that he won't let you use eminent domain to acquire the land, and the hold out landowners are demanding 20 times the offer price, then it is difficult to start a project.

Additionally, in Dallas they had to do a lot of utility work for the new arena. Once that was there, it is much easier to build smaller projects because you don't have to rebuild the entire infrastructure.

Oh, how's the World Trade Center and Atlantic Yards coming along?

Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: surfohio on January 11, 2008, 09:30:52 AM
I know the perception is that this project is moving slowly. Even if that were true, I think we would have much more to fear from the opposite, ie, just throwing something together as quickly as possible.  Given the somewhat generic architectual renderings, would you really want to see this whole thing just appear overnight? That's how things were where I'm from- the mafia controls everything. No real planning, no period of review and no opportunity for public comment. Visit the Jersey Shore if you want to see block after block of shiny, brand new buildings of the most generic quality.

It is truly amazing how the Flats died so completely. It speaks to the ineptitude of our elected officials and possibly a conspiracy, but that speculation doesn't help things now. The river and the waterfront are special, and we have to ensure that things are done with careful consideration for the next 100 years. This project means too much for the city to be a rush job. 
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: willyboy on January 11, 2008, 09:41:14 AM

That's the difference, IMO, between Cleveland being the best city it is capable of being and it being what it is.  Too many people are fighting through red tape, squabbling over details, and being narrow minded rather than simply taking the situation as its presented and saying "OK, here is where I want to go, and here is where I am.  What can I do with what I have now?  What do I need to do to get it done?"  Why does it have to be all or nothing?  Does Wolstein (or insert developer here) not feel that if they only build part of their proposed project that other like minded people won't capitialize on its success?  I'm not saying it should be rushed into, but certainly it doesn't take this long to develop a great concept for development of that area  - I'm sure those on this forum could knock it out in a day or so ;)

Oh you mean like Stark in the Warehouse district.. :wink:

I think there is a bit of truth to what shs96 is saying here.  I believe it is harder to make projects feasable here compared to an area thats growing and economically better off (like in her example).  I think Cleveland projects can be much more complicated and possibly take longer because of the complicated amount of ingredients (such as the necessity for different subsidies and amount of pre-leasing) they need for feasability (remember some places actually have housing and office shortages and can more easily build on spec.)  Cleveland in this regard, should probably only be compared to other rust belt cities that are going through the same struggles.  I think then it would look pretty simililar if not even make Cleveland seem like things are happening.            
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: Map Boy on January 11, 2008, 11:54:53 AM
And from the looks of the renderings, the urban planning/architecture aspect of the project is not revolutionary

Must we constantly be reminded that we haven't seen any renderings of the project that represent the design of what will actually be built?  We've seen massings and site plans and that's about it.  As for being revolutionary, it would take something like bulldozers on Burke's tarmac to be labeled "revolutionary," but this is certainly one of the largest master planned developments of this complex nature (land assembly, infrastructure, geography & geology, finance, market conditions, expectations, partnerships, etc.) to have been tried in Cleveland in recent history.  Sure, other cities have projects of this scale that are above the ground, or are inhabited already, but for every one that gets built, you've got to recognize that there are probably 100 that end up on a book shelf in the developer's office.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: shs96 on January 11, 2008, 12:11:06 PM

Because you can't rip up all the streets, sewerlines, waterlines, electicity, etc when there is a business operating there.


Why not?  The streets outside my front door are ripped up right now.

I don't understand how you can question the site control issue? If you don't own the buildings, the judge hints that he won't let you use eminent domain to acquire the land, and the hold out landowners are demanding 20 times the offer price, then it is difficult to start a project.

I don't question the issue.  I'm saying that issue has no bearing on the first building that is proposed to be completed.  I don't think only being able to develop 75% of the proposed project should preclude you from getting started.  I would think having a number of residents and businesses down there putting pressure on the strip club to move would be more powerful that just owning property and having a proposal on the table...should it come to that (and as we found out, it didn't).

Additionally, in Dallas they had to do a lot of utility work for the new arena. Once that was there, it is much easier to build smaller projects because you don't have to rebuild the entire infrastructure.

Obviously there will need to be upgrades, but I didn't know the area that used to be home of a thriving entertainment district was void of all utility infrastructure.


Oh, how's the World Trade Center and Atlantic Yards coming along?

Not familiar with the Atlantic Yards, but I've been to the WTC site a few times since 2001 and each time I go, I can visually see progress.  In fact, there's a website you can check out to see for yourself:  http://www.projectrebirth.org/  Is there a new building yet?  No.  But it is in progress and if you revisit every few months, you can see whats changed.  I imagine they had a lot of hoops to jump through there too, but it's moving along...

It's just an overall culture.  The differences don't extend simply to projects...even business culture in the community.  So while the situation here may be different than elsewhere, I just think there is a prevailing attitude over anything that goes like this:  OK, that sounds like a great idea.  But I don't like this part, you need to change this part, and before you get started, you need to complete this checklist of 100 things then you can break ground.  And during construction, good luck with building inspections and having government departments not delay your progress.

I want more: OK, this is a great idea.  What do we need to do collectively to make it happen?

Maybe at the end of the day it comes down a recent history of poor civic leaders... 
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: X on January 11, 2008, 12:29:02 PM
I don't think you understand the level of infrastructure repair and upgrade needed to make this a viable mixed use area.  The infrastructure that was down there was adequate for the warehousing and light manufacturing that was there 100+ years ago when it was laid in, and sufficed for the warehouse clubs and restaurants that replaced them.  That infrastructure is not adequate for the level of development Wolstein is proposing, and the buildings, streets, and supporting infrastructure are not going to be laid out as they exist today when they are rebuilt.  The infrastructure is also past it's useful service life, and therefore  it is risky to continue to depend on that infrastructure.  In addition, the bulkheads need some work, or maybe even total replacement to keep from failing and the street layout doesn't allow for an efficient layout of modern mixed use buildings or the type of riverfront access that is being demanded.  That is why all of that land needs to be acquired and cleared to redevelop it.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: MayDay on January 11, 2008, 01:11:08 PM
"I don't think only being able to develop 75% of the proposed project should preclude you from getting started.  I would think having a number of residents and businesses down there putting pressure on the strip club to move would be more powerful that just owning property and having a proposal on the table...should it come to that (and as we found out, it didn't)."

With all due respect, you're showing a serious lack of understanding about financing when it comes to development. Banks don't give loans with that kind of flexibility for projects of this scale. Banks don't say "oh well, never mind the thousands of hours invested in preparing the papers for this, we'll just take whiteout to the pages where you can't develop". Um sorry - doesn't work that way. In the same situation, the city cannot give a developer that kind of flexibility with their contracts. That's a careless approach to handling taxpayer money and opens the door for abuse.

"I just think there is a prevailing attitude over anything that goes like this:  OK, that sounds like a great idea.  But I don't like this part, you need to change this part, and before you get started, you need to complete this checklist of 100 things then you can break ground.  And during construction, good luck with building inspections and having government departments not delay your progress."

I would rather that the Economic Development and Law Departments (that my tax dollars pay for to represent me) be empowered to ask questions and keep everyone honest. You'd be surprised at what people will try to pull aka "well the city should just hand over hundreds of thousands of dollars - but don't ask us to itemize everything. Just be glad we're deeming you worthy of helping our project". That "prevailing attitude" exists to ensure that my tax dollars are being used effectively and in a way that will benefit the city. Developers have people on their team doing the same exact thing - but because it irks you - apparently the city and its residents don't deserve the same?
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: shs96 on January 14, 2008, 11:02:40 AM
With all due respect, you're showing a serious lack of understanding about financing when it comes to development. Banks don't give loans with that kind of flexibility for projects of this scale. Banks don't say "oh well, never mind the thousands of hours invested in preparing the papers for this, we'll just take whiteout to the pages where you can't develop". Um sorry - doesn't work that way. In the same situation, the city cannot give a developer that kind of flexibility with their contracts. That's a careless approach to handling taxpayer money and opens the door for abuse.

My point was they knew there were considerable obsticles to hurdle from the start.  Rather than include those obsitcles in their master plan for submission for financing, limit it to what they know they can get done.  When those obsticles have been worked through and you can further the deve, submit for additional financing.  And if they aren't worked through, then you at least have developed valuable assets.  I didn't expect the bank to just line item veto parts that were no longer to be included.  Have phase 1, phase 2, phase 3 - all with separate financing.  If you never get to phase 3, phase 1 and 2 will be there creating value.  If that is not possible, then yes, I need to be educated on how development works.

I would rather that the Economic Development and Law Departments (that my tax dollars pay for to represent me) be empowered to ask questions and keep everyone honest. You'd be surprised at what people will try to pull aka "well the city should just hand over hundreds of thousands of dollars - but don't ask us to itemize everything. Just be glad we're deeming you worthy of helping our project". That "prevailing attitude" exists to ensure that my tax dollars are being used effectively and in a way that will benefit the city. Developers have people on their team doing the same exact thing - but because it irks you - apparently the city and its residents don't deserve the same?

I wasn't suggesting the city (or any involved party) not be thorough.  I was suggesting it often seems that the parties are working against each other rather than with each other.  "Keeping people honest" is why various branches of government exist and for good reason.  But I'm sure everyone has had to work with someone else before to accomplish a goal and each person involved has different interests in mind.  Some things are easier to work on than others, and most of the time it has little to do with the task at hand, but rather the attitude of the people you're working with.  I'm not questioning the core function of the city government or its departments; I'm questioning the manner in which they go about their business.  I'm sure many of you have watched/been a part of a city council meeting or meetings of other government departments.  How often do you walk away with adjectives like, challenging, teamwork, and helpful in your head rather than abrasive, stubborn, and difficult?
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: McCleveland on January 14, 2008, 12:29:37 PM
  I think shs96 is right, Wolstein should just clap his hands two times, plant the magic bean seed and watch the flats east bank neighborhood sprout up overnight...

  Seriously I think everyone feels your frustration, but you need to pick a different project to pick on.  There are plenty of projects in this city that are fine examples of developers dragging their feet, or general ineptitude (see county administration building for how to ruin a job on many levels)... This project is significantly more complex than you are giving it credit for.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: MayDay on January 14, 2008, 01:42:04 PM
"If that is not possible, then yes, I need to be educated on how development works."

It's not that what you're suggesting isn't possible, it's simply not how the financial aspect of real estate development works - especially with a large project like Flats East Bank. In a more proven market or a much smaller project (smaller footprint, no complete reworking of infrastructure, etc.), banks might be willing to offer a modicum of flexibility for financing a multi-phase project.

"I'm not questioning the core function of the city government or its departments; I'm questioning the manner in which they go about their business.  I'm sure many of you have watched/been a part of a city council meeting or meetings of other government departments.  How often do you walk away with adjectives like, challenging, teamwork, and helpful in your head rather than abrasive, stubborn, and difficult?"

When you have 21 different council members egos, each charged with getting as much as they can for their respective little fifedoms (instead of compromising and working together for the greater good) - do you really expect any one at 601 Lakeside to get along? More to the point - many of those 21 egos have varying levels of expertise in real estate development (or any field for that matter) - some have absolutely none, but they aren't about to demonstrate that lack in public. Couple that with the respective egos in the departments involved and it's no surprise that you don't see a lot of group hugs in council chambers. So I'm not misunderstood - there are some wonderful people at City Hall (council members included) doing a great job - but there are some realities as well.

As I've said before, people (and the aforementioned egos) approach the city for funding for various projects. When they aren't given everything they want (aka they get funding for the projects they can account for), you'll hear them disparage whatever department they feel has wronged them since that department is "holding things up" when in actuality it's likely that they've asked for funding but failed to follow the processes that keep things checked and balanced. Sometimes it's a honest mistake of not knowing the nittygritty of how things work - other times it's a deliberate attempt to sneak in a few extra dollars. Would they admit to that? Of course not - it's much easier to say "I pleaded with ______ department, but they have refused to fund my project!!!" and give us (and you) the perception that whatever department is "abrasive, stubborn and difficult". And you're much more likely to hear a councilperson's viewpoint simply because they have better representation in the media - most of the departments don't have that and the perception is that the departments are the instigators of whatever trouble is involved.

Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: gotribe on January 14, 2008, 02:02:47 PM
In short, this is a very risky investment given the market it is being constructed in.  Therefore, Wolstein had to seek financing, and assume ownership very creatively in order to maximize the profits from the project.  In other hot real estate markets, it is moreso who can get their tower up faster due to the fact that thousands of people are shopping for a house. 
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: peabody99 on January 14, 2008, 03:51:28 PM
watching a council meeting put me the dumps for a long time. kind of like watching a frat boy run a nation.  thank the lord I didnt see the group hug.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: KJP on January 14, 2008, 09:50:24 PM
I've covered lots of suburbs, and Cleveland City Council meetings are tame by comparison. I was pleasantly surprised when I started covering Cleveland for Sun in 2005, as I expected a lot of infighting -- worse than what I saw in the 'burbs. Instead, Cleveland council members get along better than many of their suburban counterparts. Cleveland council meetings used to be more combative according to my predecessor at Sun who covered Cleveland council from 1989 to 2007. When you fight, you're only delaying the inevitable accord that needs to be reached. Nothing good comes from it. Too many suburbs haven't learned that lesson Cleveland gave years ago, or the lesson they're offering now.

Back to the Flats....
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: Punch on January 15, 2008, 02:44:09 AM
With this construction timeline, when can we expect to hear about retail lease signings?

(toss up question)
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: lewarctj on January 15, 2008, 09:52:34 AM
you may be waiting a while to hear about retail lease signings.  The project plans still have not been finalized.  It is anticipated in the next few weeks that the FINAL plan for the site will be submitted and then discussions can continue as when financing will be documented and vertical construction commencing. 
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: OompaLoompa on January 15, 2008, 05:53:28 PM
I am also posting this in the "events" section.

From the Cleveland Scene blog:
http://blogs.clevescene.com/cnotes/2008/01/on_the_flats_east_bank_a_visio.php

On the Flats' East Bank, a Vision of a Pop-Up City
Tue Jan 15, 2008 at 10:26:23 AM
Until Scott Wolstein’s bulldozers start swinging this spring, the Flats’ East Bank will be among the most desolate stretches in this, the City of Desolate Stretches. Old River Road, a former epicenter of debauchery, has been on life support for years. Now, save for the Hustler Club, that resilient ode to naked ladies, the plug has officially been pulled. It’s a ghost town with a view.

But Terry Schwartz has a vision for the East Bank. Sadly, it has nothing to do with naked ladies. But it’s wild nonetheless.

Schwartz, a planner with Cleveland’s Urban Design Collaborative who’s also helped with the strategic shrinking of Youngstown, is designing a so-called Pop-Up City for the deserted site – a one-day party to “remind people what they loved about the Flats.” It’s ambitious, considering that the party won’t have booze, and what everybody loved about the Flats was getting memorably smashed. But the party, slated for February 29, will have an ice-skating rink, a massive video-game display, live entertainment, food, and – here’s where you can get smashed -- imported snowboarding parks from Boston Mills and Brandywine.

The logic behind “Leap Night” is totally dreamy, precisely what you’d expect from a former city planner: “This city has such a tremendous amount of vacant land,” Schwartz says, with odd cheer in her voice. Making permanent use of Cleveland’s desolation takes years, she says. It also involves talking with politicians, a leading cause of depression. So Schwartz has found grant money – yes, there’s grant money for this stuff – to take our bum-infested lemons and turn them into lemonade.

“Vacant land is an adventure,” Schwartz says, and, strangely enough, she seems to believe it. -- Joe P. Tone

For more more information on "Leap Night" and other pop-up city events, visit http://www.popupcleveland.com. The site's still fledgling but will add info as it comes.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: Punch on January 15, 2008, 08:03:30 PM
Why no beer?  Seriously, what is it with Cleveland and beer truck phobia?
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: KStay2 on January 15, 2008, 08:06:33 PM
Yeah.. I wanna go to an outdoor event in Cleveland in February without beer.. uhhhh, NO.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: MayDay on January 16, 2008, 08:57:23 AM
Or at least coffee and Kahlua?
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: X on January 16, 2008, 09:09:10 AM
Bring a thermos of hot toddy.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: blinker12 on January 16, 2008, 09:30:08 AM
^^^Who the f--- wrote that story? That's the snarkiest and most negative thing I've read about Cleveland in a long time. And he tops it off with a bit of male chauvinism for good measure (the naked ladies bit). Thanks again, PD. :roll:
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: math on January 16, 2008, 09:35:44 AM
that is not from the pd, it is from the cleveland scene.  I am sure whoever wrote the article spent a lot of time at the college paper perfecting that journalistic objectivity.   
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: blinker12 on January 16, 2008, 09:38:05 AM
Oh, OK. That's more to be expected from Scene, I guess.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: Punch on January 16, 2008, 06:08:47 PM
^remember when Scene was locally owned and relevent.        Sigh :oops:

(oh crud, off topic)

GO FLATS EAST BANK! 
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: X on January 16, 2008, 10:52:59 PM
I remember when it was locally owned.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: KJP on January 17, 2008, 10:58:26 AM
And I remember when rock was young.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: shuli on January 18, 2008, 01:57:50 AM
^^^Who the f--- wrote that story? That's the snarkiest and most negative thing I've read about Cleveland in a long time. And he tops it off with a bit of male chauvinism for good measure (the naked ladies bit). Thanks again, PD. :roll:

How is that a chauvinistic comment? Saying that the Hustler Club is an ode to naked ladies is a statement of fact.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: Cleveland on January 18, 2008, 02:54:24 PM
i drove down by stonebridge today and it was pretty nice at stonebridge but whats the big deal about the east bank, besides stonebridge everything else is pretty crappy I don't know how people live down there right now
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: MayDay on January 18, 2008, 02:58:02 PM
Thank you for yet another insightful post.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: KJP on January 18, 2008, 03:19:13 PM
Perhaps Clevelander could contact the people involved rather than needlessly complain. So I decided to call Wolstein's people to get an update. They are still on target with their schedule: Utility and other infrastructure construction work starts when the weather breaks (ie: March or April). Demolitions are continuing, with the Hustler Club coming down once they move out. And, although negotiations are still continuing with tenants, they are close to signing a big one that, when signed and announced, will likely increase the likelihood of more tenant signings. (Hint: think East 12th and Superior).

See Clevelander, isn't it so much more productive to ask questions rather than drive around, wasting gas and time, and coming to your own baseless conclusions? Maybe we can come to your neighborhood sometime and complain about it without knowing what's going on, too.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: Cleveland on January 18, 2008, 03:40:19 PM
OK but what is the deal with every developer saying that they have a big tenant how many are out there? i think they are just hyping all there projects but they won't be as big as there saying
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: the pope on January 18, 2008, 03:46:44 PM
^ouch, my syntax.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: StrapHanger on January 18, 2008, 04:35:01 PM
they are close to signing a big one that, when signed and announced, will likely increase the likelihood of more tenant signings. (Hint: think East 12th and Superior).

Wow, that's big news.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: mrnyc on January 18, 2008, 05:17:40 PM
wait a sec, cleveland isnt clevelander is he?
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: jonmoxon on January 18, 2008, 09:59:52 PM
Eaton has been confirmed as Wolstein's big tenant.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: Punch on January 18, 2008, 10:31:13 PM
^was that a question or a statement.  How was it confirmed?
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: peabody99 on January 18, 2008, 10:38:47 PM
about the Hustler building coming down when they "move out". Will that be when it is rebuilt at the other site, or will they move out(and not be open) before the new place is ready?   Maybe they can go to the Moda space. hee, hee.  I kid, I kid. 
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: clvlndr on January 19, 2008, 12:03:28 PM
Eaton!?  Wow, that is big.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: KJP on January 19, 2008, 12:38:25 PM
about the Hustler building coming down when they "move out". Will that be when it is rebuilt at the other site, or will they move out(and not be open) before the new place is ready?   Maybe they can go to the Moda space. hee, hee.  I kid, I kid. 

I don't know if they're moving out first and then building the new club, or building the new club and then moving out of the old space.

If they move into Moda (they won't), they would have to ask Councilman Santiago to give back one of the two statues that was out front of Moda. The male statue is standing in Santiago's backyard. I wonder where the other one went?
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: peabody99 on January 19, 2008, 12:47:11 PM
I wonder where the other statue is....maybe somewhere on Duck Island. And I was kidding about Moda. Everyone knows (even fools) a Hustler is not a component of a good neighborhood.  Anyhow, Pizza and Calzone Company in the Crooked River building closed last week to make room for the Hustler, however the building needs to be demolished and rebuilt to exacting pornographer standards, so who knows how long that will take.  The Pizza and Calzone company said they hope to reopen in a few weeks "near the Columbus Bridge". My better half did not ask which side, which is important given the bridge will be closing, and this is our primary source for a pie. Interestingly they seemed to have been granted a liquor licence got their trouble. Ah sweet politics.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: 3231 on January 19, 2008, 03:51:24 PM
Demolition of the Hustler place will begin once they vacate the space in mid-March. 

Didn't we already know back in December that Eaton was going into the FEB??
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: the pope on January 19, 2008, 04:37:01 PM
Demolition of the Hustler place will begin once they vacate the space in mid-March. 

Didn't we already know back in December that Eaton was going into the FEB??

rumours have circulated, but I don't think FEB people said "yes", nor has Eaton made a formal announcement.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: Florida Guy on January 19, 2008, 05:10:20 PM
1/9/08

Winners could emerge in that competition this year, as key players such as global manufacturer Eaton Corp. and accounting giant Ernst & Young, with leases soon to expire, settle on new digs. Those deals might bring downtown at least one new top-shelf office building, with potential for another building or a major corporate office campus.

None of the handful of tenants shopping for space has made a formal announcement, but plenty of behind-the-scenes dealing took place during 2007.


Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: freethink on January 19, 2008, 06:07:12 PM
I saw this on a website for a design firm out of Elyria   www.sooyco.com   thought it was interesting, it would be cool to be able to get a hold of one...
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: jonmoxon on January 19, 2008, 07:40:27 PM
Eaton has been confirmed as Wolstein's big tenant.
^was that a question or a statement.  How was it confirmed?
^No formal announcement has been made; however, (I posted this info several weeks ago) a member of the port authority board (who has been working very closely with the Wolstein project) announced to us that Eaton had signed on with Wolstein's project. This man is informed.
Look for an announcement soon.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: MuRrAy HiLL on January 23, 2008, 11:01:38 PM
A few places to put this story..

http://blog.cleveland.com/business/2008/01/stark_fires_off_email_criticiz.html

FrqntFlyr beat me to it on the Stark thread.  .....So Ernst and Young "for sure" to Wolstein then...
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: Punch on January 23, 2008, 11:13:24 PM
This is urban sprawl of the worst kind," said Stark, who has developed many suburban projects, including Crocker Park in Westlake.

as Pope would say, ZING!

Good for Wolstien if indeed he did land two of the big hitters. 
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: Hts121 on January 23, 2008, 11:50:00 PM
Truth be told, Stark probably has a decent chance with the two law firms, SSD and BH.  Proximity to the courthouse is key here.  Really, can you imagine all those lawyers walking up that hill to get to the courthouse from FEB.  WHD is about as prime as it gets for any of Cleveland's big 6 law firms.  The biggest firm over there now I think is Weltman in the Lakeside building.  The main competition IMO for the firms is any skyscraper Jacobs might build.  However, if those firms really want NEW digs, considering they are in skyscrapers now, they will choose to go with Stark.  That would be 400,000+ sq. ft. for Stark to start with.  If he still lands Eaton then he has more than enough commitment from office tenants to go ahead and do his "single phase" mega project.  From what I understand, retail and residential interest is not what is going to hold up this project.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: clvlndr on January 24, 2008, 01:31:05 AM
wait a sec, cleveland isnt clevelander is he?

If it's me you're talking about, the answer is: no.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: clvlndr on January 24, 2008, 01:42:27 AM
A few places to put this story..

http://blog.cleveland.com/business/2008/01/stark_fires_off_email_criticiz.html
.....So Ernst and Young "for sure" to Wolstein then...

I read the article is saying E & W is looking, but not committed to Wolstein; nobody is at this point.  The only certainty, if we're to believe Stark, is that Eaton's not going to Pesht as of late last year...

... Stark's shot at East Bank's being "urban sprawl" is interesting, both considering his Crocker Park and given Wolstein's prime office building location directly at a planned new RTA Waterfront Line station inside the WFL's loop.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: w28th on January 24, 2008, 08:06:16 AM
"Warren confirmed Wednesday that Eaton has been involved in discussions about building a corporate campus in the loop of the Regional Transit Authority's waterfront line within Wolstein's project."

I can't think of a more horrible downtown location for a corporate headquarters.  Why not integrate them within the rest of the development?  Do they require surface parking or something?  Wonderful.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: urbanlife on January 24, 2008, 08:11:14 AM
"Warren confirmed Wednesday that Eaton has been involved in discussions about building a corporate campus in the loop of the Regional Transit Authority's waterfront line within Wolstein's project."

I can't think of a more horrible downtown location for a corporate headquarters.  Why not integrate them within the rest of the development?  Do they require surface parking or something?  Wonderful.

i wonder if there is a timing difference between the 2 sites.  could the waterfront loop building be built sooner?  maybe it doesn't require the commitment from the other pesht tenants for the project to move forward?
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: w28th on January 24, 2008, 08:42:59 AM
^The Waterfront Loop is part of Flats East Bank.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: urbanlife on January 24, 2008, 09:00:45 AM
^The Waterfront Loop is part of Flats East Bank.

i understand that it is shown in the FEB plans.  my question was the timing of the actual building.  i wonder if the waterfront loop site is farther along/already ready.  we've heard before that the first buildings of FEB will be commercial.  also, i've seen discussion of a building at this location regardless of what happens with FEB. 

with pesht, so far, everything seems to be pointing to "all or nothing" with respect to individual buildings.  i wonder if some of the big tenants don't want that uncertainty (if it exists).
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: Hts121 on January 24, 2008, 10:06:31 AM
I always understood the waterfront loop to mean the exisiting tracks that wrap around the site and head towards Browns' stadium.... am I wrong?...... is this a new development.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: willyboy on January 24, 2008, 10:19:56 AM
You got it.  The space Wolstein wanted DFAS to go to. 
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: Punch on January 24, 2008, 08:53:49 PM
If it is a corporate campus, why couldn't it be integrated into the development? 
Eaton's biggest competetors, Parker Hannifin and Allen Bradley have campus type headquarters, maybe that just works better for that industry rather than a skyscraper.  BTW, Parker left the city to go to a blob off of I-271 when they built their new HQ earlier this decade.

Looking at the picture, it looks like there are three open plots within the "loop"  Any one of them looks like it would fit into the development nicely.  Or am I missing something?
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: 3231 on January 24, 2008, 08:57:56 PM
^Punch,

That rendering is old. The street layout has changed and so have the massings. The new layout has not been released to the public.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: Punch on January 24, 2008, 09:47:57 PM
^Would it more isolate an Eaton campus or more integrate it?
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: 3231 on January 24, 2008, 10:12:27 PM
^I'm a little skeptical of the term "Eaton Campus". I think that may have been a phrase that the reporter accidentally used. If it is a campus, then it would probably spill into the rest of the project (think mixed use).
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: oengus1963 on January 25, 2008, 12:45:21 AM
.

Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: MyTwoSense on January 25, 2008, 06:22:57 AM
^ Campus does mean more than one building.

something is bothering me, when did E&Y move its national headquarters from cleveland to NY?  was it 2000?  was it when the consulting was sold off? 

Arthur Anderson, plays games with Enron, then E&Y buys them then sells the huge consulting business to the French and moves its headquarters to NY?  we get left with just a branch?  Why is it every time congress makes a decision Cleveland looses something?  In this instance we lost a huge consulting business to the French...what the heck does Kucinich do in Washington or would that be Tubbs Jones?  What the heck, we allow a knowledge based company to leave in the process of protecting ourselves from our selves?  Then the proceeds end up going to the headquarters of the office that started the whole thing?



When were we going to get E&Y as WW HQ. 

I thougth we've always been a regional HQ.  E&Y is starting to grow and they are expanding in several of cities where they have regional offices.  Its not a "Cleveland lost out" situation.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: Florida Guy on January 25, 2008, 07:42:23 AM
Ernst was born in Cleveland but I'm not sure that the city was ever its national HQ. I thought it was Chicago (before NY)?

EDIT: I think oengus1963 is referring to Ernst & Whinney before the Young merger in 1989.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: MyTwoSense on January 25, 2008, 09:02:30 AM
Ernst was born in Cleveland but I'm not sure that the city was ever its national HQ. I thought it was Chicago (before NY)?

Thats why I asked.  I don't remember the blizzard and I prayed that I wasn't forgetting this also!  I didn't think Cleveland was ever the location of the WW HQ. 

However, I did know that all the "big six" firms had very large offices here in Cleveland as Cleveland is one of the Accounting powerhouse cities.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: oengus1963 on January 25, 2008, 05:17:52 PM
.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: MyTwoSense on January 25, 2008, 05:23:28 PM
I've never known the "corporate" headquarters to be in Cleveland.  E&Y would have been listed in our forture 500 corporate listings.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: Florida Guy on January 25, 2008, 06:38:47 PM
E&Y's corporate or international headquarters were never located in Cleveland. Remember that E&Y as we know it didn’t exist until 1989.

Their international headquarters are located in London and their national headquarters were consolidated and are located in NY.

Back to FEB with or without E&Y…
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: clvlndr on January 26, 2008, 02:28:29 AM
E&Y's corporate or international headquarters were never located in Cleveland. Remember that E&Y as we know it didn’t exist until 1989.

Their international headquarters are located in London and their national headquarters were consolidated and are located in NY.

Back to FEB with or without E&Y…


I thought the predecessor firm, Ernst & Ernst, was indeed founded and HQ'd in Cleveland for decades.  It was one of the original "Big 8" accounting firms.  I'm not totally certain, but I think I'm right; you may want to recheck this... unless you're ONLY talking about it's most recent incarnation as Ernst & Young, which I know less about.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: buckeye1 on January 26, 2008, 09:52:34 AM
From the Encyclopedia of Cleveland History:

"ERNST & YOUNG is an international accounting firm with more than 600 offices worldwide, including more than 100 offices in the U.S. One of the country's "Big 6" accounting firms, it traces its origins locally to the firm of Ernst & Ernst. In 1903 Alwyn C. and Theodore Ernst opened an accounting office in the Schofield Bldg. (E. 9th St. Tower). The 2-man operation struggled for existence at a time when accounting was considered little more than routine bookkeeping. After Theodore had left the firm in 1906, Alwyn C. remained the managing partner until his death in 1948. Novel for its time, Alwyn C.'s concept of accounting as a creative discipline was the foundation of Ernst & Ernst's success. Implementing his philosophy, Ernst created the Special Services Dept. in 1908, the predecessor of current management-consulting services. The first offices outside Cleveland were opened in Chicago and New York in 1909, followed by several other cities in quick succession. During the 1920s, the firm became national in scope, opening 26 more offices and moving its Cleveland office to the Union Trust (Huntington) Bldg. In 1923 Ernst entered into a working agreement with Sir Arthur Whinney and Sir Chas. Palmour, partners of the British accounting firm Whinney, Murray & Co. The arrangement proved to be mutually satisfactory, and over the years it evolved into Whinney, Murray, Ernst & Ernst, the international operations of Ernst & Ernst. A reorganization in 1979 resulted in the formation of Ernst & Whinney Intl., with international offices in New York and national headquarters in Cleveland. In 1989 Ernst & Whitney merged with Arthur Young of New York as Ernst & Young. While the chairman is located in New York, the firm maintained 4 national offices in Cleveland (Natl. City Ctr.), New York, Washington, and Dallas. In 1993 Ernst & Young employed 20,000 nationally and 64,000 worldwide.

http://ech.case.edu/ech-cgi/article.pl?id=EY
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: Map Boy on January 26, 2008, 10:23:03 AM
wow, this thread has become quite the snoozer!
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: KJP on January 26, 2008, 11:22:03 AM
Then jazz it up, Map Boy! (http://www.skyscrapercity.com/images/smilies/doh.gif)
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: clvlndr on January 26, 2008, 12:06:18 PM
From the Encyclopedia of Cleveland History:

"ERNST & YOUNG is an international accounting firm with more than 600 offices worldwide, including more than 100 offices in the U.S. One of the country's "Big 6" accounting firms, it traces its origins locally to the firm of Ernst & Ernst. In 1903 Alwyn C. and Theodore Ernst opened an accounting office in the Schofield Bldg. (E. 9th St. Tower). The 2-man operation struggled for existence at a time when accounting was considered little more than routine bookkeeping. After Theodore had left the firm in 1906, Alwyn C. remained the managing partner until his death in 1948. Novel for its time, Alwyn C.'s concept of accounting as a creative discipline was the foundation of Ernst & Ernst's success. Implementing his philosophy, Ernst created the Special Services Dept. in 1908, the predecessor of current management-consulting services. The first offices outside Cleveland were opened in Chicago and New York in 1909, followed by several other cities in quick succession. During the 1920s, the firm became national in scope, opening 26 more offices and moving its Cleveland office to the Union Trust (Huntington) Bldg. In 1923 Ernst entered into a working agreement with Sir Arthur Whinney and Sir Chas. Palmour, partners of the British accounting firm Whinney, Murray & Co. The arrangement proved to be mutually satisfactory, and over the years it evolved into Whinney, Murray, Ernst & Ernst, the international operations of Ernst & Ernst. A reorganization in 1979 resulted in the formation of Ernst & Whinney Intl., with international offices in New York and national headquarters in Cleveland. In 1989 Ernst & Whitney merged with Arthur Young of New York as Ernst & Young. While the chairman is located in New York, the firm maintained 4 national offices in Cleveland (Natl. City Ctr.), New York, Washington, and Dallas. In 1993 Ernst & Young employed 20,000 nationally and 64,000 worldwide.

http://ech.case.edu/ech-cgi/article.pl?id=EY

Thanks, buckeye1  :wave:
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: MyTwoSense on January 26, 2008, 12:52:02 PM
Something is wrong, when I worked at SOHIO.  I ran the community and corporate partnerships and I would remember if E&Y was HQ'd here as we would always work with the other HQ on initiatives in Cleveland.

I just remember E & Y being a regional HQ.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: oengus1963 on January 26, 2008, 07:11:54 PM
.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: buckeye1 on January 26, 2008, 10:08:28 PM
Definitely agree with oengus - moving E&Y in could be the impetus for removing the cladding and restoring the original facade as well.  Anyone have a guess as to the square footage of that building vs what E&Y is seeking?
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: oengus1963 on January 27, 2008, 02:08:29 AM
.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: w28th on January 27, 2008, 10:43:59 AM
Definitely agree with oengus - moving E&Y in could be the impetus for removing the cladding and restoring the original facade as well.  Anyone have a guess as to the square footage of that building vs what E&Y is seeking?

Isn't E&Y in the Huntington Building?
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: KStay2 on January 27, 2008, 10:53:21 AM
Yes they are.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: oengus1963 on January 27, 2008, 09:29:40 PM
.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: w28th on January 30, 2008, 01:58:36 PM
Rumor has it that the architects for Flats East Bank will be NBBJ & RTKL.
Too bad Wolstein doesn't have the same mentality and foresight as the Triangle developers in UC.

http://www.nbbj.com/

http://www.rtkl.com/
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: 3231 on January 30, 2008, 02:33:34 PM
^I heard that there would be three architects.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: willyboy on January 30, 2008, 02:34:08 PM
Uh oh, nbbj did the Clinic Heart Center...

rtkl did alot of the urban lifestyle type centers here in D.C.... Pentagon Row, Reston Town Center, and the redevelopment of downtown Silver Spring.   
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: w28th on January 30, 2008, 02:40:45 PM
Also included...

http://www.epstein-isi.com/
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: jpop on January 30, 2008, 02:45:23 PM
Epstein's stuff is great. Encouraging pick. I have a really bad feeling about NBBJ, though, just based on the whole Cleveland Clinic thing.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: w28th on January 30, 2008, 02:48:30 PM
RTKL designed the Skylight Office Tower and The Ritz buildings at Tower City.  Not sure if they did the whole project or not.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: FrqntFlyr on January 30, 2008, 02:50:00 PM
I had heard that Forum was doing some work for the FEB. Was that just some preliminary stuff? 
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: 3231 on January 30, 2008, 02:56:45 PM
^they were doing preliminary stuff, but I don't think that they are involved anymore.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: musky on January 30, 2008, 09:22:44 PM
NBBJ has done stuff for CSU, including the Law Building renovation (iirc) currently underway. They did a good job with that.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: jpop on January 30, 2008, 10:00:56 PM
Their website is really cool, too. :)
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: KStay2 on January 30, 2008, 11:25:26 PM
NBBJ has done stuff for CSU, including the Law Building renovation (iirc) currently underway. They did a good job with that.

Not trying to be an a$$.. which I know I am.. but how could they have done a good job with a project that isn't complete?  Haha, sorry Musky.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: musky on January 31, 2008, 08:26:22 AM
Aaaaaaaa, go move to New York. :-D
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: 3231 on January 31, 2008, 08:35:23 AM
I thought that Bostwick did the Law building?
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: musky on January 31, 2008, 09:03:08 AM
You are correct.
NBBJ is doing the College of Education.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: KStay2 on January 31, 2008, 09:26:28 AM
Aaaaaaaa, go move to New York. :-D

Done and done.  :shoot:
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: StrapHanger on January 31, 2008, 09:30:37 AM
RTKL designed the Skylight Office Tower and The Ritz buildings at Tower City.  Not sure if they did the whole project or not.

I believe they also did the Wyndham at Playhouse Square, which did not impress me too much.  I f'ing hate how the reflective windows are flush with the facade on the thing.

Thanks for the report, w28, even if slightly disappointing.  RTKL and NBBJ are the epitome of corporate blandola, but they might turn out something good, we'll see.

Looks like RTKL and Epstein have teamed up before on a mixed-use project: http://www.epstein-isi.com/portfolio/mixed/mixed_7.htm
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: w28th on January 31, 2008, 10:01:24 AM
It's obvious that the architecture of this project will be nothing to get excited about.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: willyboy on January 31, 2008, 10:17:52 AM
"I believe they also did the Wyndham at Playhouse Square, which did not impress me too much.  I f'ing hate how the reflective windows are flush with the facade on the thing."

I can see that and agree.  Seeing the things theyve done, here and Cleveland, RTKL = Postmodern Blandness
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: MayDay on January 31, 2008, 10:19:00 AM
They also did Fifth Third Center.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: KJP on January 31, 2008, 10:30:50 AM
Now I like Fifth Third Center. That's a pretty decent modern skyscraper.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: StrapHanger on January 31, 2008, 10:33:53 AM
^it's fine.  Although I don't forgive it for crapping on East 6th Street with its lousy parking garage.

Should be very interesting to observe the design and development of FEB v. Triangle given the different directions in architect selection.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: surfohio on February 05, 2008, 10:18:36 PM
I had the opportunity to watch the Superbowl at a fine west bank establishment that offered extensive views of the carnage that now passes for the Flats East Bank.

I have to admit, the absence of the riverfront buildings does wonders opening up the waterfront. Prime boardwalk location if you ask me, as pedestrians in this district will abandon their cars and surely be an engine for commerce (see Baltimore).

But for the life of me, I can not understand why Wolstein is so bent on tearing down the existing Heaven and Earth and John Harvard buildings. These places look to have structural integrity, and they provide an important link to the past. They embody the look and feel of the historic Flats because they are genuine. Yet I haven't heard anyone speak up to save these places.

Am I the only one who is concerned about the psychological disconnect that will surely come when the FEB is completely unrecognizable to both tourists and life long Clevelanders alike? And what chance is there that the new structures will be as well built as these existing buildings?

The restoration of just two of these promintent remaining landmarks would make a tremendous difference in preserving the heritage of the Flats, as well as set a standard for new architecture to build from.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: Hts121 on February 06, 2008, 08:53:38 AM
My understanding is that the new project will not absorb the entirety of what we all know as the FEB.  It does not go south of the west shoreway bridge.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: urbanlife on February 06, 2008, 09:37:27 AM
But for the life of me, I can not understand why Wolstein is so bent on tearing down the existing Heaven and Earth and John Harvard buildings. These places look to have structural integrity, and they provide an important link to the past. They embody the look and feel of the historic Flats because they are genuine. Yet I haven't heard anyone speak up to save these places.

i think the problem is that the FEB plans call for a complete reconfiguring of the street grid and rebuilding of supporting infrastructure.  so, although i agree that these building appear to be worth saving, in the overall scheme of FEB, that building could not exist within the new street grid supporting the boardwalk, etc.

not saying i agree with the decision, but the port, city, wolstein, etc. are all on board with the reconfigured streets.  it is also why the project can't start in small pieces until all of the land is aquired.  it's not like euclid ave where they are just replacing utilities in the same ditch. 
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: willyboy on February 06, 2008, 09:49:17 AM
And the understanding being that the new configuration would better open up access and views to the river..?  Its certainly a trade off.. 
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: cdogz on February 06, 2008, 11:00:45 AM
See the PD article below.   This opens up more class A office space in the "Key" building that may compete with FEB and Stark....

Key moving 1,000 workers to Higbee building
Posted by Plain Dealer staff February 06, 2008 10:48AM
Categories: Breaking News

James A. Ross/Plain Dealer file
Dillard's department store occupied the Higbee building on Public Square in 1998.KeyCorp and Forest City Enterprises Inc. said this morning that Key has signed a 15-year lease agreement that will relocate about 1,000 Key employees to the Higbee building on Public Square from the nearby May Co. building.
The lease, for about 221,000 square feet of office space, is one of the largest agreements signed in the city, the companies said in a written statement.

The lease starts in January 2010, but Key expects to begin outfitting the space in June 2009 and anticipates it will begin moving staff at the end of 2009.

More at cleveland.com http://www.cleveland.com (http://www.cleveland.com)
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: willyboy on February 06, 2008, 11:06:07 AM
No it doesnt.. They would be moving from the May Co. building, which is not "class A"     Actually read the article and see the "office vacancy" thread.  :?
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: MayDay on February 06, 2008, 11:06:37 AM
Hi cdogz, although there's a tie-in - this is already being discussed in the "Cleveland's downtown vacancy rates" thread http://www.urbanohio.com/forum2/index.php/topic,4266.msg254735.html#new (http://www.urbanohio.com/forum2/index.php/topic,4266.msg254735.html#new)
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: MuRrAy HiLL on February 06, 2008, 07:37:35 PM
Well, it looks like the lean for Eaton is more and more towards the FEB :

Quote
Eaton Corp., port to begin talks on new HQ campus
Posted by Tom Breckenridge and Michelle Jarboe February 06, 2008 20:16PM
Categories: Impact

Eaton Corp., the biggest Fortune 500 company headquartered in Cleveland, will begin serious talks that could result in a new corporate campus on 8.5 acres on the Flats' east bank.

Confirmation of Eaton's interest in remaining downtown came in a letter from Port President Adam Wasserman to the company's chief executive officer, Alexander M. Cutler. The Plain Dealer obtained the letter Wednesday.


More at http://blog.cleveland.com/business/2008/02/eaton_corp_port_to_begin_talks.html (http://blog.cleveland.com/business/2008/02/eaton_corp_port_to_begin_talks.html)
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: Cleveland on February 06, 2008, 07:40:34 PM
well i hope things move fast and i hope this works out it sounds promising
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: KJP on February 06, 2008, 07:57:19 PM
This is huge news and, given its complexity, I'm not sure how I feel about it yet. My initial reaction, however, is that Eaton and Port Authority should follow, as closely as possible, either the city's lakefront masterplan for this area or even Stark's vision for it. Both are pretty close in their general concepts. But this better not be a suburbanized corporate park for the lakefront. I will be absolutely furious if this happens.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: Cleveland on February 06, 2008, 07:58:49 PM
Even if it is a suburbanized corporate park at least they would be staying downtown and not moving to the burbs.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: jonmoxon on February 06, 2008, 08:04:52 PM
If Eaton is set on building inside the RTA loop north of the RR tracks, how will it connect to the rest of the FEB (besides RTA)? Will grade crossings be built or something else? It just seems to me that although it will be in the FEB, it will be pretty much cut-off from anything else built down there. I'm just dying to see some updated renderings, just like the rest of you. :wtf:
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: KJP on February 06, 2008, 08:05:40 PM
Clevelander, If that's the mediocrity we would have to accept, then I'd rather not have the friggin Eaton Corp in the city. Development style for the lakefront IS THAT IMPORTANT. With a suburban style corporate park, we lose opportunities for having public venues on the lakefront. Who's going to want to visit a corporate park on the lakefront?? We need more public access to the lakefront, not less. That's especially true for the downtown lakefront -- as downtown belongs to the entire city. This city has so little public access to the waterfront, it's no wonder Greater Clevelanders take Lake Erie for granted and don't appreciate its importance. If a corporate park is built on the lakefront, then I will be there to tear it down brick by brick.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: jonmoxon on February 06, 2008, 08:07:17 PM
^
+1
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: willyboy on February 06, 2008, 08:10:05 PM
^
Im with you... Except what if they dont build it with brick's? :|
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: MuRrAy HiLL on February 06, 2008, 08:16:03 PM
The  best part of this article is the piece of mind that this project pretty much has a concrete completion date for this portion become of Eaton's 2011 centenial deadline--which can hopefully propel everything else to not be delayed fromt he original timelines. 

Unfortunitely I have to leave Cleveland for two years to do my military service starting in 2009, but I'm scheduled to return 2011...hopefully I will the see the beginning of the lakefront development bridging from FEB, as well as many other projects well underway and/or ready for completion.  In a way, maybe it will feel like a time warp to finally seeing these projects completed!
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: MuRrAy HiLL on February 06, 2008, 08:16:54 PM
^
Im with you... Except what if they dont build it with brick's? :|

KJP, I'll teach you what I know about explosives!   :wink::drunk:
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: 3231 on February 06, 2008, 08:17:52 PM
I'm really taken off guard by this. Who the hell does Eaton think they are to request an office campus in downtown?!?
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: Punch on February 06, 2008, 08:23:51 PM
Lets wait for the renderings before we light up the torches and assemble the mob
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: MayDay on February 06, 2008, 08:47:02 PM
By then it'll be too late, so we can at least set up a marshalling yard and start divvying out the oil.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: cleveland pride on February 06, 2008, 09:14:02 PM
^I think it's very good to have that kind of fighting attitude.  After all, Cleveland has had to put up with too much crap being built within its limits over the years.  I'm just wondering if it is already too late.  I don't mean to challenge anybody here, but is there realistically anything we can do at this point to make a real change or are we going to have to just sit back and take this thing like we have everything else?  It seems to me like they are already too close to start all over again from step one. 
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: jamiec on February 06, 2008, 09:16:36 PM
It sounds like no one has any balls anymore because they are afraid they are going to offend a big institution. Talk about leading for the short-term.

The campus idea could be interesting if they integrated it with mixed-used development, such as how urban universities like NYU, Columbia and Boston University mingle with the city. Of course, I'm doubtful this is what they mean in this instance. Maybe this is what Stark was going crazy about a couple weeks back when he called this the "worst kind of suburban sprawl" or whatever he said...
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: w28th on February 06, 2008, 10:26:24 PM
With all the traveling that these supposedly intelligent executives do across the entire planet you would think that they would pick up at least a shred of urban design sensibilities.  If Eaton wants a freaking campus move to Solon, I really couldn't give a damn.
And seriously, they want that site bad enough that they will pay to move an entire rail line?  Are you kidding me?  Maybe we can reconfigure the Cuyahoga River to E12th and Superior to give them riverfront property.  This is ridiculous.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: Oldmanladyluck on February 06, 2008, 11:19:57 PM
The city CAN NOT let eaton just build a corporate campus that could fit into any suburb along the city's prime lakefront.  That just can't happen.  I'm with you... count me in if a suburban-like campus makes it past the planning commission.

I don't know if this was posted yet, but there are newer renderings of the Flats East Bank on Forum Architects website...

http://www.forumarc.com/portfolio/flatseastbank/feb1.html
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: MyTwoSense on February 06, 2008, 11:29:53 PM
I don't know if this was posted yet, but there are newer renderings of the Flats East Bank on Forum Architects website...
they were posted a bit earlier, but could help the new folks.

I agree, however, I would like to ask eaten what their definition of a "campus" is.  They say they don't want a skyscraper, but nothing "official" has been said.  Shall we email the chairman?
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: CTownsFinest216 on February 07, 2008, 04:54:55 AM
Quote
Even if it is a suburbanized corporate park at least they would be staying downtown and not moving to the burbs.

who the f-ck cares if downtown becomes a suburban office park, cleveland is already trying to turn itself into one big suburb and now this crap comes along. id rather eaton move to solon or get the hell out of town altogether if they want to do this

even the companies located downtown have a suburban mentality

Quote
The port "will do all that is necessary to turn the [corporate campus] concept that has been shown to us into a reality," Wasserman wrote.

ridiculous

look at these 2 morons chiming in on cleveland.com already....

Quote
Posted by Paddington1 on 02/07/08 at 2:04AM

A $13 billion company wants to stay in Cleveland and you guys are complaining? Who cares what the site looks like or what kind of crappy rails they have to move? It's a miracle anyone would want to stay in Cleveland in the first place...and Eaton can/will be a catalyst for future growth. You can't beat that with a bat! 

Quote
Posted by Rocksider on 02/07/08 at 2:10AM

Ladies and gentleman, any development of that area is better than what is there now (been down there lately?...ick). Downtown Chicago has many office campuses near their lakefront. I'd like to think that we might be like them someday as their development seems to do the job nicely. It is really kind of funny to me when I hear how poorly things are being done with regards to economic development in our city. Sometimes, I think many of you don't want anything to happen just so you can keep bitching. Stop talking about "better ways" and have a little faith in the fact the their is finally talk and proof of actual progress.

clueless



screw it. key should tear down key tower and make a 5-story building spreading over 2 acres downtown

tear down terminal tower, its too old and too tall
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: Flee2theCleve on February 07, 2008, 07:15:33 AM
they are an extremely large company with only an interest on how these plans impact their bottom-line and their shareholder's stakes.  although it would be nice for them to build with an eye towards aesthetically pleasing architectural stylings and special care for the overall urban fabric of a city, unfortunately, more often than not, the impetus behind these decisions are driven by cost and nothing else. 
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: jamiec on February 07, 2008, 07:47:57 AM
^ I don't think that's true at all. Most of the United States' great architectural works have been funded by large corporations. I don't think it's a matter of cost; it's a matter of taste.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: w28th on February 07, 2008, 08:12:49 AM
The reality of the situation us that Eaton is know as a very politically conservative company and that has apparently effected their opinions on architecture and how they visualize their new headquarters.  A few months ago I saw a proposal for Eaton by one of the largest firms in the city for Stark's project.  It was an authentically contemporary proposal and would have made a strong statement for Eaton and may have become an icon for the company.  Unfortunately however, their conservative aesthetic views were not in line with this proposal and it wasn't investigated further.
I cannot imagine a situation where a corporate campus will seamlessly integrate with the urban fabric, and this is just an f'ing shame.  Eaton could have become part of something larger than itself, but it is choosing to corner itself and its significant workforce into an inaccessible nook of the city never to be seen again.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: jam40jeff on February 07, 2008, 08:47:44 AM
politically conservative
[snip]
could have become part of something larger than itself, but it is choosing to corner itself

I understand many conservative economies theories, but I think many times they get so lost in the bottom line they forget that there's more to life than just making a little bit more money.  To many of them, Quality of Life is a "liberal term" never to be mentioned.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: Hts121 on February 07, 2008, 08:55:00 AM
I'll wait for the plans/renderings to come out before I pass any judgment.  All that "campus" says to me is that it will be more than one building.  Tyler Village is a "campus" and I think that its layout (regardless of the age of the buildings) fits an urban setting.

For comparison's sake, the proposed site for eaton is only 2/3 the size of Tyler Village.

Due to demand, I assume that any Eaton campus will not be quite as dense as Tyler and I imagine that Eaton wants a campus setting for the greenspace that can be offered.  Now I realize I am not in the majority on this board, but I am happy to have greenspace downtown.  Several major cities around the world incorporate greenspace quite well into urban settings (e.g. Singapore).  Chicago also has plenty of "green" on its lakefront. 

Plus, once the port moves, there will be open real estate to develop between any Eaton Campus and the lake.... it is not like the "campus" will abut the lake.

All this said, I may change my tune once the renderings come out.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: StrapHanger on February 07, 2008, 08:55:39 AM
Barf.  Like so many other things in town, yeah! for the income tax base...but otherwise, yawn.

Maybe we can reconfigure the Cuyahoga River to E12th and Superior to give them riverfront property.

Don't give them any ideas.

Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: StrapHanger on February 07, 2008, 09:08:30 AM
Due to demand, I assume that any Eaton campus will not be quite as dense as Tyler and I imagine that Eaton wants a campus setting for the greenspace that can be offered.  Now I realize I am not in the majority on this board, but I am happy to have greenspace downtown.  Several major cities around the world incorporate greenspace quite well into urban settings (e.g. Singapore).  Chicago also has plenty of "green" on its lakefront. 

Hts, I hope you're right that this thing might not be too lame.  But Tyler village has over 1 million square feet- it's roughly 4 times larger than Eaton's space needs, so I don't think the density will be at all comparable.

As for green space: I'm thinking it's going to be more like the Sherwin Williams riverfront campus...which isn't open to the public.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: MayDay on February 07, 2008, 09:10:05 AM
What I would hate to see is something like the Owens Corning "campus" in Toledo. It engages the waterfront and like a lot of Pelli designs, the materials used on the facade are handsome but look at how it interacts with the area immediately west (to the right of this photo, where the rest of downtown Toledo is):

Photo from Hines Properties:
(http://www.hines.com/toolkit_images/Project%20Photos/Owens%20Corning%20World%20Headquarters/Owens%20Corning,%20exterior_lres_web.jpg)
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: Punch on February 07, 2008, 09:40:36 AM
There has to be an example, somewhere in the world, where a company was able to integrate a group of buildings into an urban context.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: w28th on February 07, 2008, 09:43:39 AM
The reconfiguring of the Waterfront Line is totally ridiculous.  How much would something like that cost? $10,000,000?  $20,000,000?
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: MyTwoSense on February 07, 2008, 09:45:39 AM
There has to be an example, somewhere in the world, where a company was able to integrate a group of buildings into an urban context.


See NYC-Battery Park
See Chicago
See Toronto

Need I go any further?
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: Punch on February 07, 2008, 09:47:32 AM
Then why is everyone ready to jump off a ledge before we see any renderings?

(BTW, where in Chicago?)
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: jpop on February 07, 2008, 09:58:53 AM
We're ready to jump off a ledge because of Cleveland's track record.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: Florida Guy on February 07, 2008, 10:09:42 AM
We've had the debates and one side would rather have offices spread out over several smaller buildings vs. one skyscraper. Isn’t this exactly that? Is it the word “campus” that is conjuring up scary thoughts? Wouldn’t this work better here than in the CBD?

Seriously, I’m no expert (there’s a shock) these are genuine questions.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: KJP on February 07, 2008, 10:19:29 AM
I wouldn't mind a reconfiguring of the Waterfront Line's right of way. The existing loop makes development of that dock area very difficult. And yes, it might cost $10 million or more to reconfigure it. That's fine, but can that be done -- and build a building (or several of them) in time to meet Eaton's 2011 deadline?

Yeah, the corporate park doesn't sound too appealing to me, but everyone has their own definitions. I hadn't seen the new renderings of the Flats East Bank, which looks pretty good. If Eaton follows the same type of genre, and ensures a publicly accessible area with ground floor public uses (restaurants, cafes, shops etc), then I'll be content (to address Florida Guy's question -- it's all about the mixed-use, on-the-sidewalk stuff, with more greenspace the closer you get to the water's edge). If this is not, and will be more like Owens Corning's single-use office campus in Toledo, then I will form a militant organization to disrupt, if not demolish this project.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: MayDay on February 07, 2008, 10:23:55 AM
"Is it the word “campus” that is conjuring up scary thoughts?"

Yes.
(http://www.bialosky.com/graphics/portfolio/61/Progressive%20Campus%20II_Ext-Main%20St.jpg)

(http://www.gwlraproperties.com/CNTImages/1045/4200labelle.jpg)
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: StrapHanger on February 07, 2008, 10:24:39 AM
I'd be surprised if their "campus" is open to the public, but I'm happy to be surprised.

What scares me is not the word "campus", but the 8.5 acres.  That is an absolutely gigantic site for a few hundred thousand square feet office unless its built on corn fields.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: MayDay on February 07, 2008, 10:25:50 AM
And another example of a "campus" in the lower right:
(http://www.clevelandskyscrapers.com/terminalcomplex/terminalview8.jpg)
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: KJP on February 07, 2008, 10:33:42 AM
(http://www.forumarc.com/portfolio/flatseastbank/feb7.jpg)

If this is their vision of an office campus, with public spaces and green spaces, then I'm happy. Yep, I realize this is what's proposed farther south in the Flats East District. But it would make sense to continue this land use pattern all the way north to the lake. It's also very similar to what the city had included in its lakefront planning initiatives, which was the result of extensive public input. If Eaton wants swift approval of their land use plans by the CPC, then I would think Eaton would want to design something very close to the city's plan.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: audidave on February 07, 2008, 10:40:22 AM
Looking over the Forum renderings I'm a little struck at how very similar if not exact the street layout is especially under the Main Ave. bridge.  Other than that the other pictures could've been anywhere in the world.  If River St. is going to still be there then Wolstein should try to keep some of the buildings mentioned earlier in the thread to keep some character in tact.

I'm more confused as to why bother to build a suburban campus on a spot that would seem to call for a single building.  I can't see a company like Eaton taking full advantage of the WaterFront line. Perhaps I'm wrong on that account.  I doubt they run enough trains for peak rushes.  Say 200-300 Eaton employees at 7:30am want to take the train on a snowy day from Tower City.  Would the Waterfront line be able to accommodate that?
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: Florida Guy on February 07, 2008, 10:45:20 AM
^ I think you mean Main Ave Bridge.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: Flee2theCleve on February 07, 2008, 10:53:53 AM
re
^ I don't think that's true at all. Most of the United States' great architectural works have been funded by large corporations. I don't think it's a matter of cost; it's a matter of taste.

really?  care to name a few of these such examples in cleveland?
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: Florida Guy on February 07, 2008, 10:54:44 AM
Even the poor duck can't penetrate this “fortress.” :laugh:

(http://www.bialosky.com/graphics/portfolio/61/Progressive%20Campus%20II_Ext-Main%20St.jpg)
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: MayDay on February 07, 2008, 10:58:54 AM
re
^ I don't think that's true at all. Most of the United States' great architectural works have been funded by large corporations. I don't think it's a matter of cost; it's a matter of taste.

really?  care to name a few of these such examples in cleveland?

(http://www.clevelandskyscrapers.com/cleveland/keynoon.jpg)

(http://www.clevelandskyscrapers.com/cleveland/terminalfromsoldiers.jpg)

(http://www.clevelandskyscrapers.com/cleveland/ohiobell.jpg)

(http://www.clevelandskyscrapers.com/cleveland/rockefeller.jpg)

(http://www.clevelandskyscrapers.com/cleveland/society2.jpg)

Not so much in recent history, but it's been known to happen. Next!
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: Flee2theCleve on February 07, 2008, 11:06:28 AM
those are some pretty photos, but the terminal tower for one i know was financed by the van sweringen brothers, real estate speculators...not a Fortune 500 publicly-traded company. 
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: KJP on February 07, 2008, 11:10:53 AM
Don't forget the amazing atriums in the Huntington building, National City Bank building, and others.

really?  care to name a few of these such examples in cleveland?

Buy a book on Cleveland architecture sometime. There's countless examples of great architecture funded by corporate interests. There's even some Cleveland architecture book by some skyscraper geek, found at:

http://www.amazon.com/Clevelands-Downtown-Architecture-Images-America/dp/0738532029

those are some pretty photos, but the terminal tower for one i know was financed by the van sweringen brothers, real estate speculators...not a Fortune 500 publicly-traded company. 

OK, now we're splitting hairs. The Van Sweringen brothers had controlling ownership interests in numerous large railroad companies (most were Fortune 500 companies) in this country by the end of the 1920s. And the Terminal Tower complex was built by the Cleveland Union Terminals Co., itself a $1.7 billion (in 1930 $$) corporation when the complex opened. CUT Co. was owned, in part, by the Van Sweringen brothers, as well as New York Central Inc., one of the largest companies in the world in 1930.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: MayDay on February 07, 2008, 11:13:30 AM
Thanks KJP :-)
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: Flee2theCleve on February 07, 2008, 11:17:08 AM
also, the Key Tower, nee Ameritrust, WAS a large public corporation, however, if you chop off the top 50 floors, this would fit the space requirement Eaton is looking for (approx. 25,000 sq. ft/floor x 7 floors = 175,000 sq. ft).  Now, with having said that, look at the bottom 7 floors that remain.  Does that fall under the context of a "United States' great architectural work" as Jamiec mentions above?  Certainly not.

my point is that everyone needs to temper their expectations given who we are dealing with....
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: MyTwoSense on February 07, 2008, 11:24:15 AM
also, the Key Tower, nee Ameritrust, .........


No, the "Society for Saving" bank.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: Flee2theCleve on February 07, 2008, 11:32:03 AM
Don't forget the amazing atriums in the Huntington building, National City Bank building, and others.

really?  care to name a few of these such examples in cleveland?

Buy a book on Cleveland architecture sometime. There's countless examples of great architecture funded by corporate interests. There's even some Cleveland architecture book by some skyscraper geek, found at:

http://www.amazon.com/Clevelands-Downtown-Architecture-Images-America/dp/0738532029

those are some pretty photos, but the terminal tower for one i know was financed by the van sweringen brothers, real estate speculators...not a Fortune 500 publicly-traded company. 

OK, now we're splitting hairs. The Van Sweringen brothers had controlling ownership interests in numerous large railroad companies (most were Fortune 500 companies) in this country by the end of the 1920s. And the Terminal Tower complex was built by the Cleveland Union Terminals Co., itself a $1.7 billion (in 1930 $$) corporation when the complex opened. CUT Co. was owned, in part, by the Van Sweringen brothers, as well as New York Central Inc., one of the largest companies in the world in 1930.

i'm just saying we now live in a much different world than when most of these privately-held companies designed their work space.  i'm not saying there don't exist exceptions to this, but they are becoming exceedingly rare...

i would be very curious to see what any recently-designed present-day (1990-current) Fortune 500 headquarters look like for comparison sake.  just look at walmart's or microsoft...this is what we should expect
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: BK on February 07, 2008, 11:34:48 AM
I actually worked in the new Owens-Corning building for a few months in 2000 before I moved to Cleveland.  Let me tell you-- I got a damned workout.  I don't remember the particulars, but the building is like 3-4 stories tall and about a quarter mile long.  When you had to go from one end to the other it was hike.  Not to mention they had no structured parking, so you had to walk quite a distance to get into the building.  I just can't understand why a company would want to be laid out like that when they could be vertical-- elevators/stairs make everything much closer together.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: Florida Guy on February 07, 2008, 11:58:27 AM
i would be very curious to see what any recently-designed present-day (1990-current) Fortune 500 headquarters look like for comparison sake.  just look at walmart's or microsoft...this is what we should expect

Maybe in Independence but not in the CBD! Comcast Tower under construction in Philly (2007):

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/1d/Comcast_center_feb07.JPG/450px-Comcast_center_feb07.JPG)
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: jamiec on February 07, 2008, 12:41:12 PM
also, the Key Tower, nee Ameritrust, WAS a large public corporation, however, if you chop off the top 50 floors, this would fit the space requirement Eaton is looking for (approx. 25,000 sq. ft/floor x 7 floors = 175,000 sq. ft).  Now, with having said that, look at the bottom 7 floors that remain.  Does that fall under the context of a "United States' great architectural work" as Jamiec mentions above?  Certainly not.

my point is that everyone needs to temper their expectations given who we are dealing with....


That doesn't even make sense. That's like saying the Mona Lisa would be ugly if you only had a quarter of it.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: w28th on February 07, 2008, 02:28:03 PM
This is a big topic on cleveland.com today with some informed comments, and some not so informed comments.  It made me think that we should designate a day and bumrush cleveland.com with the ideas and positive outlook that are discussed here on a daily basis to squelch out the negative vibe and piss off the naysayers over there.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: MayDay on February 07, 2008, 02:29:16 PM
I agree, but even *I'm* not keen on using the term "bumrush". ;-)
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: MyTwoSense on February 07, 2008, 02:35:24 PM
I agree, but even *I'm* not keen on using the term "bumrush". ;-)

LMAO!!       You Sir, have been on a roll the past two days!  I love me some "funny" MayDay.  No pun intended.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: jonmoxon on February 07, 2008, 02:56:09 PM
^Um, I wasn't aware that "bumrush" was a double entendre, or is it something else entirely?? :wtf:
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: MayDay on February 07, 2008, 02:57:14 PM
In my world, EVERYTHING is a double entendre! :laugh:
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: MyTwoSense on February 07, 2008, 03:00:11 PM
In my world, EVERYTHING is a double entendre! :laugh:

Honey are you drunk??  'cause you are really trippin' today!    :wink:
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: KJP on February 07, 2008, 03:03:53 PM
OK girls, but to quote the queen:  BACK ON TOPIC PLEASE!!
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: MayDay on February 07, 2008, 03:05:16 PM
Ahem... that's MY line! But yes, indeed:

(http://www.clevelandskyscrapers.com/flatseastbankbot.jpg)
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: Punch on February 07, 2008, 03:12:22 PM
Seriously, can anyone think of an example that FEB/Eaton can strive to be like?
I never really paid attention, but does the Arena district in Cbus do a good job with offices mixed in?
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: jonmoxon on February 07, 2008, 03:23:59 PM
I'm wracking my brain to remember a story I read a few years' back about a mid-sized company here in Ohio, instead of building a brand-new stand alone hq building on the outskirts of town ( I can't remember the town's name either), they bought several historic commercial bldgs in that towns CBD and rehabbed the upper floors for their offices and connected these to the other bldgs (these bldgs were next to each other; no skywalks). They then rehabbed the street-level storefronts in these bldgs and sought out retailers and the like for them. I'll be damned if I can remember the company or the town, but I vividly recall the CEO being quoted to the effect, 'we wanted to do something to preserve these historic bldgs and the life of downtown'. Did I jog anyone's memory with this?
I would think this would be an example of a "campus" we could all live with, albeit on a much larger scale. :clap:
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: Punch on February 07, 2008, 03:36:32 PM
Crown forklift, near Dayton
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: Map Boy on February 07, 2008, 03:42:35 PM
This is what I've had in mind for Scranton Peninsula for some time, but it appears quite relevant to this discussion: http://www.bizjournals.com/seattle/stories/1996/08/12/story1.html?t=printable

Adobe's Fremont campus is a good example of an office headquarters fitting large-scale economic development into a neighborhood, while at the same time maintaining and enhancing waterfront access.  I couldn't find any great photos, but you know how to do an image search, right?
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: KJP on February 07, 2008, 04:03:27 PM
Seriously, can anyone think of an example that FEB/Eaton can strive to be like?
I never really paid attention, but does the Arena district in Cbus do a good job with offices mixed in?

The Arena District isn't bad, but one that comes to mind is Connecticut Avenue, between K and M streets in Washington DC.

This isn't too bad, though its Sun-Belted exterior isn't appropriate for Cleveland:

(http://www.swinerton.com/uploads/projectimage/430/image/Main%20Picture.jpg)

Thisis an office building with restaurants on the ground floor, at Eton Collection in the Cleveland suburb of Woodmere:

(http://www.bialosky.com/graphics/portfolio/36/Eton_Bravo.jpg)

More office buildings with ground-floor shops and cafes, plus pedestrian-friendly public spaces, in Crocker Park in the Cleveland suburb of Westlake:

(http://www.bialosky.com/graphics/portfolio/11/CP-Chess%20Bd.jpg)

(http://www.bialosky.com/graphics/portfolio/11/Park%20Fountain.jpg)


Horrible examples:

A pretty but impersonal corporate fortress:

(http://www.swinerton.com/uploads/projectimage/7/image/sunroadcorporate3.jpg)

This is pretty neat looking, but doesn't do anything to encourage public interaction with this building, nor does is cause 24-hour (or at least 18-hour) activity and pedestrianism and therefore has limited use at any hour outside its walls:

(http://www.bialosky.com/graphics/contentimages/337/Architecture.jpg)

These are all cold and impersonal:

http://www.gaaarchitects.com/missionridge.html (click "more office" to see the others)
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: theguv on February 07, 2008, 04:10:23 PM
mapboy, thanks for the tidbit about adobe in fremont.

i found an interesting article which discusses the adobe campus in fremont as well as the shift from corporations constructing skyscrapers to corp's building campuses/neighborhoods.

http://www.djc.com/news/ae/11127719.html
Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
Post by: Florida Guy on February 07, 2008, 04:14:06 PM
More here: http://images.search.yahoo.com/search/images?_adv_prop=image&fr=my-vert-web-top&va=fremont+adobe&sz=all&imtype=&imqualityall
(http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1392/1386497405_fce9f20947.jpg?v=0)

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Title: Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
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