Author Topic: In The World: Korea  (Read 14519 times)

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Offline Hts121

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Re: In The World: Korea
« Reply #140 on: August 10, 2017, 01:50:42 PM »
Trump's threat closely mimicked the rhetoric routinely used by KJU, both in style and tone.  I wonder if that was intentional.  Even though he stumbled over the words a bit, as he usually does, it seemed like the remarks were pre-planned.  Maybe it was one of those "talk his language" suggestions, ending up with the conclusion that Trump already does talk KJU's language. 

If we have to use military force against NK, then that is something we have to do.  But every diplomatic option should be exhausted.  Every prior President has been able to hold this dictatorship at bay without starting another war on that peninsula.  If we do go to war, it would be nice to have a strong international coalition.  That is what concerns me about The Donald.  I have no faith he has the necessary leadership and diplomacy skills to build one.  The other significant world leaders either view him as weak and feeble or don't have the necessary respect for Trump to follow him.
« Last Edit: August 10, 2017, 01:53:08 PM by Hts121 »
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Offline MGM

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Re: In The World: Korea
« Reply #141 on: August 10, 2017, 01:51:44 PM »
David, negotiations will not work and they have never worked with N. Korea. They violated the agreed to framework that they signed when Clinton was POTUS. They had a secret enrichment program. As best as we know that can't aim their ICBMs very well, but that could change. Best hope is that the CIA hacks their systems and fire off a couple of non nukes that hit land. Then the gloves come off.

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Re: In The World: Korea
« Reply #142 on: August 10, 2017, 01:55:06 PM »
Trump's threat closely mimicked the rhetoric routinely used by KJU, both in style and tone.  I wonder if that was intentional.  Even though he stumbled over the words a bit, as he usually does, it seemed like the remarks were pre-planned.  Maybe it was one of those "talk his language" suggestions, ending up with the conclusion that Trump already does talk KJU's language. 

If we have to use military force against NK, then that is something we have to do.  But every diplomatic option should be exhausted.  Every prior President has been able to hold this dictatorship at bay without starting another war on that peninsula.  If we do go to war, it would be nice to have a strong international coalition.  That is what concerns me about The Donald.  I have no faith he has the necessary leadership and diplomacy skills to build one.  The other significant world leaders either view him as weak and feeble or don't have the necessary respect for Trump to follow him.
If the goal was a non nuclear N. Korea then Clinton, Bush and Obama failed.

Offline down4cle

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Re: In The World: Korea
« Reply #143 on: August 10, 2017, 02:10:46 PM »
^ I personally do not think that NK has nuclear capabilities.  During the Obama it was reported that NK had nuclear capability but it turned out that Mike Flynn was full of it.  A lot of what I read is that it is extremely difficult to get any intel out of NK. 

Offline MGM

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Re: In The World: Korea
« Reply #144 on: August 10, 2017, 02:24:04 PM »
^ I personally do not think that NK has nuclear capabilities.  During the Obama it was reported that NK had nuclear capability but it turned out that Mike Flynn was full of it.  A lot of what I read is that it is extremely difficult to get any intel out of NK.
I don't trust everything I read. What did Mike Flynn do? Meuller and Powell were full of it also testifying that Iraq had WMD, probably courtesy of the CIA. N. Korea has boosted/hydrogen fission bombs and they have detonated at 4 of them in tests. The have ICBMs. They question is can they arm them.
« Last Edit: August 10, 2017, 02:24:44 PM by MGM »

Offline gottaplan

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Re: In The World: Korea
« Reply #145 on: August 10, 2017, 02:29:17 PM »
^I personally hope you are right but I can't imagine all the world's intelligence being duped. 

If this situation continues to escalate, I think we'll start to see world markets affected, with trade and defense being juggled. 

Article here on South Korea & Japan getting involved https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-08-10/south-korea-warns-north-korea-against-launching-missile-at-guam

Article here on China seething at being left out of the conversation now: http://www.reuters.com/article/us-northkorea-missiles-idUSKBN1AQ179 

"Neither North Korea nor the United States listens to China. They're too busy heading down the path to a military clash. There's not much China can do. China can't stop North Korea and it can't stop the United States."

Offline Hts121

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Re: In The World: Korea
« Reply #146 on: August 10, 2017, 02:31:24 PM »
Trump's threat closely mimicked the rhetoric routinely used by KJU, both in style and tone.  I wonder if that was intentional.  Even though he stumbled over the words a bit, as he usually does, it seemed like the remarks were pre-planned.  Maybe it was one of those "talk his language" suggestions, ending up with the conclusion that Trump already does talk KJU's language. 

If we have to use military force against NK, then that is something we have to do.  But every diplomatic option should be exhausted.  Every prior President has been able to hold this dictatorship at bay without starting another war on that peninsula.  If we do go to war, it would be nice to have a strong international coalition.  That is what concerns me about The Donald.  I have no faith he has the necessary leadership and diplomacy skills to build one.  The other significant world leaders either view him as weak and feeble or don't have the necessary respect for Trump to follow him.
If the goal was a non nuclear N. Korea then Clinton, Bush and Obama failed.

Let's try to focus on the present.  NK allegedly now has a nuclear warhead and it came about on The Donald's watch.  No need to play the blame game.  We are where we are now with the current President calling the shots.  Clinton, Bush and Obama didn't have to respond to the current threat.  The Donald does have to respond.  Let's hope he can de-escalate things.  That would show strength and ability.  Any chump can order a bunch of 20 somethings into a war zone.
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Offline jmecklenborg

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Re: In The World: Korea
« Reply #147 on: August 10, 2017, 02:35:36 PM »
So what happens if we go in there and there are no weapons of mass destruction?  Will there be a "surge"?  Will Halliburton and Blackwater get paid even if they don't take the trip over there?   

Offline MGM

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Re: In The World: Korea
« Reply #148 on: August 10, 2017, 02:46:03 PM »
Trump's threat closely mimicked the rhetoric routinely used by KJU, both in style and tone.  I wonder if that was intentional.  Even though he stumbled over the words a bit, as he usually does, it seemed like the remarks were pre-planned.  Maybe it was one of those "talk his language" suggestions, ending up with the conclusion that Trump already does talk KJU's language. 

If we have to use military force against NK, then that is something we have to do.  But every diplomatic option should be exhausted.  Every prior President has been able to hold this dictatorship at bay without starting another war on that peninsula.  If we do go to war, it would be nice to have a strong international coalition.  That is what concerns me about The Donald.  I have no faith he has the necessary leadership and diplomacy skills to build one.  The other significant world leaders either view him as weak and feeble or don't have the necessary respect for Trump to follow him.
If the goal was a non nuclear N. Korea then Clinton, Bush and Obama failed.

Let's try to focus on the present.  NK allegedly now has a nuclear warhead and it came about on The Donald's watch.  No need to play the blame game.  We are where we are now with the current President calling the shots.  Clinton, Bush and Obama didn't have to respond to the current threat.  The Donald does have to respond.  Let's hope he can de-escalate things.  That would show strength and ability.  Any chump can order a bunch of 20 somethings into a war zone.
That is wrong,
North Korea has conducted a total of five nuclear tests, in 2006, 2009, 2013 and twice in 2016
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_nuclear_weapons_tests_of_North_Korea

Offline MGM

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Re: In The World: Korea
« Reply #149 on: August 10, 2017, 02:49:54 PM »
So what happens if we go in there and there are no weapons of mass destruction?  Will there be a "surge"?  Will Halliburton and Blackwater get paid even if they don't take the trip over there?
Probably the bomb makers more so. Blackwater is busy in Afghanistan.....I think.

Offline down4cle

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Re: In The World: Korea
« Reply #150 on: August 10, 2017, 03:00:16 PM »
^ I personally do not think that NK has nuclear capabilities.  During the Obama it was reported that NK had nuclear capability but it turned out that Mike Flynn was full of it.  A lot of what I read is that it is extremely difficult to get any intel out of NK.
I don't trust everything I read. What did Mike Flynn do? Meuller and Powell were full of it also testifying that Iraq had WMD, probably courtesy of the CIA. N. Korea has boosted/hydrogen fission bombs and they have detonated at 4 of them in tests. The have ICBMs. They question is can they arm them.

I don't know all of the detail but in 2014? when Flynn was Director of DIA in the Obama administration he had determined that NK had nuclear missile capability but it turned out not to be true.  Some intelligence experts are skeptical that NK has ICBM capabilities or ability to arm missiles.  I am not an expert on this stuff and maybe I want to convince myself that we have nothing to worry about.

Offline Hts121

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Re: In The World: Korea
« Reply #151 on: August 10, 2017, 03:29:22 PM »
Trump's threat closely mimicked the rhetoric routinely used by KJU, both in style and tone.  I wonder if that was intentional.  Even though he stumbled over the words a bit, as he usually does, it seemed like the remarks were pre-planned.  Maybe it was one of those "talk his language" suggestions, ending up with the conclusion that Trump already does talk KJU's language. 

If we have to use military force against NK, then that is something we have to do.  But every diplomatic option should be exhausted.  Every prior President has been able to hold this dictatorship at bay without starting another war on that peninsula.  If we do go to war, it would be nice to have a strong international coalition.  That is what concerns me about The Donald.  I have no faith he has the necessary leadership and diplomacy skills to build one.  The other significant world leaders either view him as weak and feeble or don't have the necessary respect for Trump to follow him.
If the goal was a non nuclear N. Korea then Clinton, Bush and Obama failed.

Let's try to focus on the present.  NK allegedly now has a nuclear warhead and it came about on The Donald's watch.  No need to play the blame game.  We are where we are now with the current President calling the shots.  Clinton, Bush and Obama didn't have to respond to the current threat.  The Donald does have to respond.  Let's hope he can de-escalate things.  That would show strength and ability.  Any chump can order a bunch of 20 somethings into a war zone.
That is wrong,
North Korea has conducted a total of five nuclear tests, in 2006, 2009, 2013 and twice in 2016
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_nuclear_weapons_tests_of_North_Korea

No.  That is right.  Keyword: warhead

Are you contending that nothing new has happened in the past few days?
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Offline MGM

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Re: In The World: Korea
« Reply #152 on: August 10, 2017, 03:30:50 PM »
^ I personally do not think that NK has nuclear capabilities.  During the Obama it was reported that NK had nuclear capability but it turned out that Mike Flynn was full of it.  A lot of what I read is that it is extremely difficult to get any intel out of NK.
I don't trust everything I read. What did Mike Flynn do? Meuller and Powell were full of it also testifying that Iraq had WMD, probably courtesy of the CIA. N. Korea has boosted/hydrogen fission bombs and they have detonated at 4 of them in tests. The have ICBMs. They question is can they arm them.

I don't know all of the detail but in 2014? when Flynn was Director of DIA in the Obama administration he had determined that NK had nuclear missile capability but it turned out not to be true.  Some intelligence experts are skeptical that NK has ICBM capabilities or ability to arm missiles.  I am not an expert on this stuff and maybe I want to convince myself that we have nothing to worry about.
Some experts believe the recent tests are consistent with bombs small enough to put on an ICBM. I just do not want the CIA/Defense Contractors/Military Industrial complex to get us into a ground war invasion over there.

Offline down4cle

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Re: In The World: Korea
« Reply #153 on: August 10, 2017, 03:35:42 PM »
A war with N. Korea is a lose-lose situation.  That is why I wish that Trump wouldn't speak off the cuff about this.  Perhaps previous administrations did not do enough but it is his baby now. When you become president you are fully aware of what's going on in the world. If Trump doesn't know what to do (which is fine) he should rely on his experts.  Problem being, He doesn't have any East Asia experts in the administration and he ends up listening to dummies like Gorka instead of actual experts.

Offline Ram23

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Re: In The World: Korea
« Reply #154 on: August 10, 2017, 04:07:12 PM »
^ A North Korea with nuclear capable ICBM's is a lose-lose situation. Right now, there's some solace in that they don't have MIRVs so we have a realistic chance of intercepting their missiles, and an even greater chance of targeting and destroying their missiles and nuclear weapons on the ground, before they are able to be used. Even if Japan and US intelligence is wrong, and they don't have miniaturized warheads, it's only a matter of time (and for the last 5-10 years, it was always just a matter of time). Forcing the region, and eventually the world, to live under the fear of a crazy, rouge dictator possessing the ability to wipe entire cities off the face of the plan is not an acceptable solution.

As for an action war, for a decade or so I've thought the only way to minimize loses )on what would hopefully be a UN coalition side) would be a first strike. In theory, any medium or long range ballistic missiles could be destroyed immediately, and significant damage could be done to North Korean long range conventional and rocket artillery. If we wait for NK to make a first move, they get to utilize all of that - potentially for hours or even longer. Those are the items that would do the most damage to our troops and allies in the region. We don't seem to be anywhere near a first strike, though. We'd first see weeks or even a month+ of buildup, and at that scale it probably wouldn't be possible to keep quiet.

Also, a part of me thinks the rumors of NK tunnels under the DMZ, impenetrable artillery sites, etc. are overblown scare tactics to keep the South Korean people willing to support a war. These are the type of conventional fortifications the bulk of American weapons are designed to destroy. If there really are tunnels into SK under the DMZ, we know exactly where they are - they would be easy to find with ground penetrating radar. If NK were to send tens or even hundreds of thousands of troops into said tunnels, they'd lose tens or even hundreds of thousands of troops to a proportionally small number of fuel air bombs. Most would suffocate trying to dig themselves out. It wouldn't be pretty, but the doomsday scenarios of artillery fire leveling Seoul or a million troops pouring over the DMZ are way, way overblown - so long as we make the first move.

Offline Foraker

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Re: In The World: Korea
« Reply #155 on: August 10, 2017, 04:24:56 PM »
Also remember that the US is downwind from Korea, so if any nuclear materials are detonated or otherwise dispersed (such as in a preemptive strike) into the atmosphere, some portion will rain down on us here.

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Re: In The World: Korea
« Reply #156 on: August 12, 2017, 08:37:05 AM »
Sorry, but after living through the Cold War with the Soviet Union's larger military pointed at you, I don't consider North Korea to be all that scary. Neither apparently does the US military....

Despite Rhetoric On North Korea, U.S. Military Posture Hasn't Really Changed
http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2017/08/11/542799683/despite-rhetoric-on-north-korea-u-s-military-posture-hasnt-really-changed
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Offline David

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Re: In The World: Korea
« Reply #157 on: August 13, 2017, 12:33:50 AM »
First of all, does anyone else think this thread title should be changed to "In The World: North Korea?" Lately, I've just been sick of headlines that refer to North Korea as simply, "Korea." It's ridiculous. There's certainly a difference between North and South Korea and I thought that everyone knew that by now. In fact, that's an understatement, to say there's a difference. It's literally the difference between night and day. Yet, some journalists aren't even making that distinction. In deed, North Korea news pertains to South Korea as well but no more or less than it pertains to the U.S., Japan, and to a slightly lesser degree - China and Russia.

Secondly, Americans in general, are f-ing stupid. This is anecdotal but I've seen dozens of similar videos to this over the years:



Not only should the ability of locating N. Korea on a map be easy with nothing more than a high school education but considering N. Korea is in mainstream news headlines constantly, with regular mention of China, Japan, Russia and S. Korea being the nearby, concerned borders, this should be a no-brainer. Folks should be able to point to at least a better general area. South America? Are you kidding me? You don't at least know that 'Koreans' are Asian and would know to point to what I'd expect you to recognize as Asia?!

Everyone talks about how stupid Americans are, and I agree, but the reality of the situation is that humans in general are just a horrible, destructive, polluting, invasive species on this earth. As George Carlin put it, we're nothing more than a surface disease that mother nature can take care of. Even if it were a result of nuclear weapons wiping out cities and those outside of cities dying slowly from radiation poisoning, the obliteration of our species would do the earth much more good than harm. I'm starting to think I can't even blame people for not even caring about this species, let alone the crisis with N. Korea.

If we all died tomorrow, we'd be doing the earth a huge favor.

« Last Edit: August 13, 2017, 12:38:52 AM by David »
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Offline MGM

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Re: In The World: Korea
« Reply #158 on: August 13, 2017, 08:03:31 AM »
If we all died tomorrow, we'd be doing the earth a huge favor.

WTF? A youtube geography video has you that pressed.

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Re: In The World: Korea
« Reply #159 on: August 13, 2017, 08:53:07 AM »
If we all died tomorrow, we'd be doing the earth a huge favor.

WTF? A youtube geography video has you that pressed.
A reading of "Homo Deus," the New York Times bestseller by Yuval Noah Harari, will undoubtedly alter his thinking.   :-D
« Last Edit: August 13, 2017, 08:54:22 AM by subocincy »

Offline Cleburger

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Re: In The World: Korea
« Reply #160 on: August 13, 2017, 05:01:35 PM »
Also, a part of me thinks the rumors of NK tunnels under the DMZ, impenetrable artillery sites, etc. are overblown scare tactics to keep the South Korean people willing to support a war. These are the type of conventional fortifications the bulk of American weapons are designed to destroy. If there really are tunnels into SK under the DMZ, we know exactly where they are - they would be easy to find with ground penetrating radar. If NK were to send tens or even hundreds of thousands of troops into said tunnels, they'd lose tens or even hundreds of thousands of troops to a proportionally small number of fuel air bombs. Most would suffocate trying to dig themselves out. It wouldn't be pretty, but the doomsday scenarios of artillery fire leveling Seoul or a million troops pouring over the DMZ are way, way overblown - so long as we make the first move.

The Chinese have already warmed Trump about taking preemptive action.  If they do, the Chinese will defend the political status quo on the peninsula.  If North Korea strikes first, the Chinese will remain neutral.   

Does anyone like Donald Trump playing chess with the Chinese?
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Offline AmrapinVA

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Re: In The World: Korea
« Reply #161 on: August 14, 2017, 08:09:38 AM »
Also, a part of me thinks the rumors of NK tunnels under the DMZ, impenetrable artillery sites, etc. are overblown scare tactics to keep the South Korean people willing to support a war. These are the type of conventional fortifications the bulk of American weapons are designed to destroy. If there really are tunnels into SK under the DMZ, we know exactly where they are - they would be easy to find with ground penetrating radar. If NK were to send tens or even hundreds of thousands of troops into said tunnels, they'd lose tens or even hundreds of thousands of troops to a proportionally small number of fuel air bombs. Most would suffocate trying to dig themselves out. It wouldn't be pretty, but the doomsday scenarios of artillery fire leveling Seoul or a million troops pouring over the DMZ are way, way overblown - so long as we make the first move.

The Chinese have already warmed Trump about taking preemptive action.  If they do, the Chinese will defend the political status quo on the peninsula.  If North Korea strikes first, the Chinese will remain neutral.   

Does anyone like Donald Trump playing chess with the Chinese?

The Chinese have been playing chess with the US for quite some time so it's not like we're dragging some neutral power into a defensive stance. The Chinese literally built an island for a military base in supposed international waters in the South China Sea to scare it's neighbors. Even the communist government in Vietnam is taking an issue with what China claims is "theirs". It's no secret the Chinese want the US out of South Korea, Japan and the Philippines and they've taken action to make that point.

Also, lest we forget, while Russia may be all over the news for hacking the Chinese haven't stopped.

So, no, I don't worry about "upsetting" the Chinese.
« Last Edit: August 14, 2017, 08:11:46 AM by AmrapinVA »

Offline AmrapinVA

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Re: In The World: Korea
« Reply #162 on: August 14, 2017, 08:17:04 AM »
First of all, does anyone else think this thread title should be changed to "In The World: North Korea?" Lately, I've just been sick of headlines that refer to North Korea as simply, "Korea." It's ridiculous.

Why have an issue with this? It was a unified peninsula for thousands of years. Korea is one of the oldest civilizations on Earth. It's only in the last 50 years that this peninsula was split in half. Pretty much every political/military action the North or South Korea government takes has something to do with it's neighbor.

Offline MGM

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Re: In The World: Korea
« Reply #163 on: August 15, 2017, 12:31:04 PM »
North Korean ruler stands down on threat to Guam, but could change his mind 'if the Yankees persist'

North Korea’s autocratic ruler has decided not to launch missiles toward Guam, Pyongyang’s state media reported Tuesday, easing the immediate threat of an attack on the U.S. territory in the western Pacific.

The North Korean statement said Kim Jong Un could change his mind “if the Yankees persist in their extremely dangerous reckless actions,” in which case the country’s artillerymen would “wring the windpipes of the Yankees and point daggers at their necks.

http://www.latimes.com/nation/la-fg-guam-north-korea-20170814-story.html

Offline audidave

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Re: In The World: Korea
« Reply #164 on: August 15, 2017, 12:40:59 PM »
Good to know at least one of the rulers is sane.

Offline Ram23

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Re: In The World: Korea
« Reply #165 on: August 15, 2017, 12:55:12 PM »
It seems to me that Trump's rhetoric worked on Kim. It's very rare to see Kim publicly back down from such a specific threat like that. Usually his threats are very generic so that he doesn't have to actually back them up, but this one had a date and specific target.

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Re: In The World: Korea
« Reply #166 on: August 15, 2017, 12:58:50 PM »
When else has he ever publicly announced something like he did here? I can't recall anything like this before. He usually just does something without announcing, or, like you said, makes a generic threat.
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Re: In The World: Korea
« Reply #167 on: August 15, 2017, 01:06:59 PM »
Good to know at least one of the rulers is sane.

Indeed.
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Re: In The World: Korea
« Reply #168 on: August 15, 2017, 01:10:36 PM »
I suspect the Chinese were more persuasive with Kim than Cheeto's hollow threats.
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Offline down4cle

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Re: In The World: Korea
« Reply #169 on: August 15, 2017, 01:12:26 PM »
Kim has no intention of nuking or bombing anybody.  his sole reason to show military strength has nothing to do with us or any other country.  It has to do with Kim showing strength to his own people.  It is how dictators stay in power.
« Last Edit: August 15, 2017, 02:19:35 PM by down4cle »

Offline MGM

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Re: In The World: Korea
« Reply #170 on: August 15, 2017, 01:16:35 PM »
I suspect the Chinese were more persuasive with Kim than Cheeto's hollow threats.

China is to stop importing coal, iron, iron ore and seafood from North Korea.

The move is an implementation of UN sanctions, which were imposed in response to North Korea's two missile tests last month.

China accounts for more than 90% of North Korea's international trade.

Beijing had pledged to fully enforce the sanctions after the US accused it of not doing enough to rein in its neighbour.

Economic impact
The UN approved sanctions against Pyongyang earlier this month that could cost the country $1bn (£770m) a year in revenue, according to the figures provided to the Security Council by the US delegation.

Although China's coal imports from North Korea totalled $1.2bn last year, the figure will be much lower this year because China had already imposed a ban in February, experts said.

"China has already imported its quota of coal under sanctions for 2017. So no net impact there, and North Korean exports to other countries are minimal," said David Von Hippel, from the Nautilus Institute -a think tank based in Oregon -who has researched North Korea's coal sector.

More below:
http://www.bbc.com/news/business-40932427

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« Last Edit: August 15, 2017, 01:54:40 PM by ColDayMan »

Offline AmrapinVA

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Re: In The World: Korea
« Reply #171 on: August 15, 2017, 02:13:42 PM »
Kim has no intention of nuking or bombing anybody.  his sole reason to show military strength has nothing to do with us or any other country.  It has to do with Kim showing strength to his own people.  It is has dictators stay in power.

I would go one step further and say showing strength to his own family and some high ranking generals. He could care less about 99.9% of the populace there.

Offline down4cle

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Re: In The World: Korea
« Reply #172 on: August 15, 2017, 02:16:31 PM »
He may worry about the populace as far as preventing an uprising or revolution.  But, yes keeping his family and generals in line helps prevent a coup.

Offline Hts121

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Re: In The World: Korea
« Reply #173 on: August 15, 2017, 03:04:52 PM »
Amazing how similar Trump and Kim's 'leadership' styles are
Your true friends will help you up when someone knocks you down.  Your best friend will say "Stay down, I got this."

Offline jmecklenborg

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Re: In The World: Korea
« Reply #174 on: August 15, 2017, 03:41:11 PM »
Amazing how similar Trump and Kim's 'leadership' styles are

Cultures don't really matter when it comes to accumulating power.  People around the world respond the same way to the same tricks.   

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