Author Topic: Cleveland: Public Square Redesign  (Read 550817 times)

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Online down4cle

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Re: Cleveland: Public Square Redesign
« Reply #3150 on: March 06, 2017, 09:47:10 AM »
^ mayor is trying to save face.  He claimed safety issues and he is now covering for it. 

Offline KJP

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Re: Cleveland: Public Square Redesign
« Reply #3151 on: March 06, 2017, 09:48:43 AM »
"Don't tell me what you value. Show me your budget and I'll tell you what you value." -- Joe Biden

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Re: Cleveland: Public Square Redesign
« Reply #3152 on: March 06, 2017, 03:58:44 PM »
RTA and the City are about to turn what was a beautiful, celebrated, people-centered public (front-door) park redo into a mess.

This fiasco is an example why a large segment of voters is in perpetual knee-jerk opposition to spending tax dollars on the public good.

I'm not saying you should join in their complete negativity, not at all. But in your frustration you can at least now understand where they're coming from.

Offline KJP

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Re: Cleveland: Public Square Redesign
« Reply #3153 on: March 06, 2017, 10:28:06 PM »
And yet it comes from a few very wealthy corporate executives twisting the arms of politicians to get them to implement their narrow, privileged views of how cities should be designed and for whom.
« Last Edit: March 06, 2017, 10:28:42 PM by KJP »
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Offline dwirthwein

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Re: Cleveland: Public Square Redesign
« Reply #3154 on: March 06, 2017, 11:00:58 PM »
P
« Last Edit: March 06, 2017, 11:03:57 PM by dwirthwein »

Offline dhm

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Re: Cleveland: Public Square Redesign
« Reply #3155 on: March 06, 2017, 11:37:24 PM »
Buses were running smoothly today, and RTA riders, the thousands of them who go to Public Square every day, were happy.

Westbound during the PM rush was a party downtown. The lack of congestion, omnipresent for the past two years, was a sight for sore eyes.

RTA riders remain the most consistent user of Public Square. That's what the last seven months taught.

However, I guarantee that St Pattys Day the square will be closed, which will be neat. Per the plan all along. Weekends, get a special event permit and close it.

On work days, however, buses will be given the right of way: they should. Workers need to get to jobs. People down the lines need to make connections that categorically depend on timing. Seniors got to get to the doctor's.

Public Square is the transit hub. That's how the city is laid out, and it's not a bad thing.

Re-routing buses around the square was a safety hazard. One million more left turns is no joke. Unilaterally making that decision was not a shining moment for Cleveland democracy. Indeed, in contrast to its original design and avoiding any public comment or public planning process, that's how the decision to shut down Superior was made.

Today the RTA isn't out the $12 million the FTA wanted. Considering that amounts to 5% of RTA's annual budget, that's a big deal.

Offline p28curry

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Re: Cleveland: Public Square Redesign
« Reply #3156 on: March 07, 2017, 08:03:38 AM »
This mayor cannot be reelected.  This public square is a complete mess not to mention how bad the crime is here.

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Re: Cleveland: Public Square Redesign
« Reply #3157 on: March 07, 2017, 09:46:39 AM »
Buses were running smoothly today, and RTA riders, the thousands of them who go to Public Square every day, were happy.

Westbound during the PM rush was a party downtown. The lack of congestion, omnipresent for the past two years, was a sight for sore eyes.

RTA riders remain the most consistent user of Public Square. That's what the last seven months taught.

However, I guarantee that St Pattys Day the square will be closed, which will be neat. Per the plan all along. Weekends, get a special event permit and close it.

On work days, however, buses will be given the right of way: they should. Workers need to get to jobs. People down the lines need to make connections that categorically depend on timing. Seniors got to get to the doctor's.

Public Square is the transit hub. That's how the city is laid out, and it's not a bad thing.

Re-routing buses around the square was a safety hazard. One million more left turns is no joke. Unilaterally making that decision was not a shining moment for Cleveland democracy. Indeed, in contrast to its original design and avoiding any public comment or public planning process, that's how the decision to shut down Superior was made.

Today the RTA isn't out the $12 million the FTA wanted. Considering that amounts to 5% of RTA's annual budget, that's a big deal.

In good weather, the Square was always crowded. Notably, with small children.
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Offline AmrapinVA

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Re: Cleveland: Public Square Redesign
« Reply #3158 on: March 07, 2017, 10:36:45 AM »
Buses were running smoothly today, and RTA riders, the thousands of them who go to Public Square every day, were happy.

Westbound during the PM rush was a party downtown. The lack of congestion, omnipresent for the past two years, was a sight for sore eyes.

RTA riders remain the most consistent user of Public Square. That's what the last seven months taught.

However, I guarantee that St Pattys Day the square will be closed, which will be neat. Per the plan all along. Weekends, get a special event permit and close it.

On work days, however, buses will be given the right of way: they should. Workers need to get to jobs. People down the lines need to make connections that categorically depend on timing. Seniors got to get to the doctor's.

Public Square is the transit hub. That's how the city is laid out, and it's not a bad thing.

Re-routing buses around the square was a safety hazard. One million more left turns is no joke. Unilaterally making that decision was not a shining moment for Cleveland democracy. Indeed, in contrast to its original design and avoiding any public comment or public planning process, that's how the decision to shut down Superior was made.

Today the RTA isn't out the $12 million the FTA wanted. Considering that amounts to 5% of RTA's annual budget, that's a big deal.

In good weather, the Square was always crowded. Notably, with small children.

What does small children have to do with it? If proximity to small children is the standard for amending bus routes there's no point in having busses at all. Parents need to parent.

Offline Matches

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Re: Cleveland: Public Square Redesign
« Reply #3159 on: March 07, 2017, 11:26:51 AM »
Indeed. You cannot get to Public Square itself without crossing a street. Every bus that now goes through Superior had been diverted to the street that every small child has to cross to get to the splash pool or the lawn.

What's a travesty is that the Square's design has been mangled by the new so-called safety precautions.  Both visually and functionally, it is a disaster.   The square was designed to have (1) a busway on Superior at least 5 days a week, and (2) TWO pedestrian crossings of that busway along the "promenade".  Putting the chosen path of the pedestrian walk aside for a moment, was that 2-crossing design flawed from a safety perspective from the start?  If so, how did it pass review?  Why has there been no comment sought from the designer?  No one's saying "What was Corner thinking with this promenade crossing a busy busway twice with absolutely no street markings?"   At what point did the powers that be decide that they'd try to get away with never opening Superior?  Bus shelters were erected but as I recall from my time there, there are absolutely no signals installed for pedestrians to cross via the "promenade".  Who missed that? How were all these concerns ignored?  That is not corporate interests twisting the arms of hapless politicians. That's incompetence from incompetents.
« Last Edit: March 07, 2017, 11:29:56 AM by Matches »
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Re: Cleveland: Public Square Redesign
« Reply #3160 on: March 07, 2017, 11:33:55 AM »
^ Eh.  I think its ingrained in people to expect the worst.  Just like when superior was closed off, you had to cross a street to get to the splash pool.  Some street, any street.  Its an island.  I dont expect to see "Kid hit by bus" stories.  I will stand corrected if i do...but i think people adjust.  Cross the street carefully and that is that. 
« Last Edit: March 07, 2017, 01:37:08 PM by BelievelandD1 »

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Re: Cleveland: Public Square Redesign
« Reply #3161 on: March 07, 2017, 12:12:09 PM »
^ Eh.  I think its ingrained in people to expect the worst.  Just like when superior was closed off, you had to cross a street to get to the splash pool.  Some street, any street.  Its an island.  I dont suspect to see "Kid hit by bus" stories.  I will stand corrected if i do...but i think people adjust.  Cross the street carefully and that is that. 

It works both ways.  When that poor 69-year-old woman from the Shaker Rapid was struck and killed by a bus a few months ago, some pro bus-through-the-center advocates pointed to this as an example of too many buses forced to round-about the Square when it was really just about an irresponsible bus driver who was fired by RTA and, IIRC, could still face charges.  If someone gets struck by a bus (hopefully never a child) in the through Superior roadway, the keep-it-closed crowd will point to that... It's all a matter of personal politics.

Offline AmrapinVA

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Re: Cleveland: Public Square Redesign
« Reply #3162 on: March 07, 2017, 12:19:51 PM »
^ Eh.  I think its ingrained in people to expect the worst.  Just like when superior was closed off, you had to cross a street to get to the splash pool.  Some street, any street.  Its an island.  I dont suspect to see "Kid hit by bus" stories.  I will stand corrected if i do...but i think people adjust.  Cross the street carefully and that is that. 

It works both ways.  When that poor 69-year-old woman from the Shaker Rapid was struck and killed by a bus a few months ago, some pro bus-through-the-center advocates pointed to this as an example of too many buses forced to round-about the Square when it was really just about an irresponsible bus driver who was fired by RTA and, IIRC, could still face charges.  If someone gets struck by a bus (hopefully never a child) in the through Superior roadway, the keep-it-closed crowd will point to that... It's all a matter of personal politics.

The amount of buses going through this roadway currently is pretty small. We're not talking hundreds of buses per hour through the Square. I can't see a situation where a kid could get struck unless a parent wasn't paying attention to them or the child is out of control. In either case, it's probably not the wisest thing to take the youngster to that splash park anyway.
« Last Edit: March 07, 2017, 12:20:57 PM by AmrapinVA »

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Re: Cleveland: Public Square Redesign
« Reply #3163 on: March 07, 2017, 01:14:40 PM »
Just a reminder that there is a raised concrete bench and several feet of sidewalk separating the splash zone from the roadway. Here's the view from the roadway: http://bit.ly/2mxKDBW
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Re: Cleveland: Public Square Redesign
« Reply #3164 on: March 07, 2017, 01:33:06 PM »
^ Eh.  I think its ingrained in people to expect the worst.  Just like when superior was closed off, you had to cross a street to get to the splash pool.  Some street, any street.  Its an island.  I dont suspect to see "Kid hit by bus" stories.  I will stand corrected if i do...but i think people adjust.  Cross the street carefully and that is that. 

It works both ways.  When that poor 69-year-old woman from the Shaker Rapid was struck and killed by a bus a few months ago, some pro bus-through-the-center advocates pointed to this as an example of too many buses forced to round-about the Square when it was really just about an irresponsible bus driver who was fired by RTA and, IIRC, could still face charges.  If someone gets struck by a bus (hopefully never a child) in the through Superior roadway, the keep-it-closed crowd will point to that... It's all a matter of personal politics.

At some point the politics have to make sense though, or they really shouldn't control policy.  Somebody got killed by a red line train in Little Italy... do we need to close that too?  The principles of TOD are being upended by all these anti-bus arguments.  "Gotta keep em separated... hey hey hey... come out and play!  [mediocre guitar riff]"
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Re: Cleveland: Public Square Redesign
« Reply #3165 on: March 07, 2017, 01:36:19 PM »
^ Eh.  I think its ingrained in people to expect the worst.  Just like when superior was closed off, you had to cross a street to get to the splash pool.  Some street, any street.  Its an island.  I dont suspect to see "Kid hit by bus" stories.  I will stand corrected if i do...but i think people adjust.  Cross the street carefully and that is that. 

It works both ways.  When that poor 69-year-old woman from the Shaker Rapid was struck and killed by a bus a few months ago, some pro bus-through-the-center advocates pointed to this as an example of too many buses forced to round-about the Square when it was really just about an irresponsible bus driver who was fired by RTA and, IIRC, could still face charges.  If someone gets struck by a bus (hopefully never a child) in the through Superior roadway, the keep-it-closed crowd will point to that... It's all a matter of personal politics.

The amount of buses going through this roadway currently is pretty small. We're not talking hundreds of buses per hour through the Square. I can't see a situation where a kid could get struck unless a parent wasn't paying attention to them or the child is out of control. In either case, it's probably not the wisest thing to take the youngster to that splash park anyway.

I actually took my toddler there and she had a great time.  There was zero chance of her getting anywhere near a street, because, ya know....parenting.

Offline Bookman

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Re: Cleveland: Public Square Redesign
« Reply #3166 on: March 08, 2017, 07:02:18 PM »
Indeed. You cannot get to Public Square itself without crossing a street. Every bus that now goes through Superior had been diverted to the street that every small child has to cross to get to the splash pool or the lawn.

What's a travesty is that the Square's design has been mangled by the new so-called safety precautions.  Both visually and functionally, it is a disaster.   The square was designed to have (1) a busway on Superior at least 5 days a week, and (2) TWO pedestrian crossings of that busway along the "promenade".  Putting the chosen path of the pedestrian walk aside for a moment, was that 2-crossing design flawed from a safety perspective from the start?  If so, how did it pass review?  Why has there been no comment sought from the designer?  No one's saying "What was Corner thinking with this promenade crossing a busy busway twice with absolutely no street markings?"   At what point did the powers that be decide that they'd try to get away with never opening Superior?  Bus shelters were erected but as I recall from my time there, there are absolutely no signals installed for pedestrians to cross via the "promenade".  Who missed that? How were all these concerns ignored?  That is not corporate interests twisting the arms of hapless politicians. That's incompetence from incompetents.
There are (or were) pedestrian signals at both of the crosswalks inside the promenade.  Use the photo here: http://bit.ly/2mxKDBW and check out the 360 view.

Offline Matches

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Re: Cleveland: Public Square Redesign
« Reply #3167 on: March 10, 2017, 10:28:12 AM »
Thank you for that photo.  Cleveland.com today:

http://www.cleveland.com/metro/index.ssf/2017/03/ugly_public_square_is_evolving.html

"I would say 'what's out there now is functional.' It's kind of ugly. It's probably not what's going to be there in the long run," Mike Schipper, deputy general manager of engineering and project management for the Greater Cleveland Regional Transit Authority, said during RTA's Citizens Advisory Board meeting Thursday. "This is going to evolve."

RTA CEO Joe Calabrese even suggested the two existing crosswalks might eventually be used.


That's not even a direct quote from Calabrese, but nice to know that the existing crosswalks that were designed into the thing "might" eventually be used.
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Offline Pugu

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Re: Cleveland: Public Square Redesign
« Reply #3168 on: March 10, 2017, 10:52:11 AM »
Sorry if this has already been answered---if the Feds wanted their $ back because it was for the BRT project---wasn't that a long time ago? Isn't there a rule that Federal money must be used as requested for seven years and after that cities are no longer obligated to it? I wish Jackson would have stuck to his guns. He almost---for the first time--was showing some leadership.

Offline seicer

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Re: Cleveland: Public Square Redesign
« Reply #3169 on: March 10, 2017, 10:57:17 AM »
They (the crosswalks) will be used when Jackson is out of the office.

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Re: Cleveland: Public Square Redesign
« Reply #3170 on: March 10, 2017, 11:52:17 AM »
Sorry if this has already been answered---if the Feds wanted their $ back because it was for the BRT project---wasn't that a long time ago? Isn't there a rule that Federal money must be used as requested for seven years and after that cities are no longer obligated to it? I wish Jackson would have stuck to his guns. He almost---for the first time--was showing some leadership.

A full-funding grant agreement with the FTA does not have an expiration date. Jackson showed the opposite of leadership by refusing to abide by agreements (federal, for the Superior transitway; local, for the design of Public Square) that his administration signed after extensive public engagement processes, by using false information and bullying the RTA board to get his way, by forcing an already financially distressed RTA to devote significant expenses to reroute buses, by forcing RTA staff to spend much of their time negotiating/fighting with the city when they should be working to address its declining financial situation. He was doing the bidding of Key Corp and other Public Square sponsors who didn't want "those people" messing up their beautiful playground. What mayor Jackson showed was cowardice, by kow-towing to the privileged few and ignoring the working masses who actually make the city run -- secretaries, janitors, restaurant servers, laborers -- who use transit and were greatly inconvenienced by a mayor who showed he has forgotten from where he came.
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Re: Cleveland: Public Square Redesign
« Reply #3171 on: March 10, 2017, 12:20:30 PM »
Sorry if this has already been answered---if the Feds wanted their $ back because it was for the BRT project---wasn't that a long time ago? Isn't there a rule that Federal money must be used as requested for seven years and after that cities are no longer obligated to it? I wish Jackson would have stuck to his guns. He almost---for the first time--was showing some leadership.

A full-funding grant agreement with the FTA does not have an expiration date. Jackson showed the opposite of leadership by refusing to abide by agreements (federal, for the Superior transitway; local, for the design of Public Square) that his administration signed after extensive public engagement processes, by using false information and bullying the RTA board to get his way, by forcing an already financially distressed RTA to devote significant expenses to reroute buses, by forcing RTA staff to spend much of their time negotiating/fighting with the city when they should be working to address its declining financial situation. He was doing the bidding of Key Corp and other Public Square sponsors who didn't want "those people" messing up their beautiful playground. What mayor Jackson showed was cowardice, by kow-towing to the privileged few and ignoring the working masses who actually make the city run -- secretaries, janitors, restaurant servers, laborers -- who use transit and were greatly inconvenienced by a mayor who showed he has forgotten from where he came.

So FTA has an unlimited clawback period?  That seems crazy, especially when the value of the grant obviously depreciates over time. 

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Re: Cleveland: Public Square Redesign
« Reply #3172 on: March 10, 2017, 01:08:26 PM »
Why should the rules suddenly change just because time passed?  I wish I could do that with my credit cards.  We're not talking about the depreciating object.  We're talking about the money, whose value grows over time.
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Re: Cleveland: Public Square Redesign
« Reply #3173 on: March 10, 2017, 02:07:43 PM »
^Aren't the rules essentially contractual in this case? I don't think there are any statutes or regs at work here. I'm skeptical that the City of Cleveland can never for the rest of time alter the Transit Zone without being liable to the federal government for some kind of clawback.
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Re: Cleveland: Public Square Redesign
« Reply #3174 on: March 10, 2017, 02:33:55 PM »
Why should the rules suddenly change just because time passed?  I wish I could do that with my credit cards.  We're not talking about the depreciating object.  We're talking about the money, whose value grows over time.

The grant money isn't growing; it was earmarked for and expended on a depreciable asset. 
« Last Edit: March 10, 2017, 02:56:40 PM by heightsfan »

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Re: Cleveland: Public Square Redesign
« Reply #3175 on: March 10, 2017, 05:29:34 PM »
RTA should sue the city for the last six months of expenses
« Last Edit: March 10, 2017, 05:31:08 PM by Whipjacka »
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Re: Cleveland: Public Square Redesign
« Reply #3176 on: March 10, 2017, 05:36:26 PM »
Depreciation has nothing to do with this.  The grant consisted of money and money does not depreciate.  As far as I'm aware the city has no grounds to tell the feds "too late ha ha."  But I wouldn't put it past them to try it, they've tried everything else.

Walked an old lady from court to Tower City this morning.  Neither of us felt like zigzagging through the square so we avoided it altogether.  Public Square is now a bewildering mess for pedestrians.  Some of that is due to the initial design flaw of ignoring Ontario, some of it is due to Jackson's recent changes.
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Re: Cleveland: Public Square Redesign
« Reply #3177 on: March 10, 2017, 06:06:37 PM »
Are the superior crosswalks at the outside edges of the inner square still open?
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Offline KJP

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Re: Cleveland: Public Square Redesign
« Reply #3178 on: August 23, 2017, 12:07:33 AM »
No more room for compromise on Cleveland's Public Square #transit
https://t.co/e4HUOAS0DW
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Offline DeanSheen

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Re: Cleveland: Public Square Redesign
« Reply #3179 on: August 23, 2017, 08:49:00 AM »
Those barriers are an eyesore. 

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Re: Cleveland: Public Square Redesign
« Reply #3180 on: September 11, 2017, 02:07:16 AM »
Those barriers are an eyesore.

There's a company who's already looking for more appealing solutions for the jersey barriers downtown. Those are there for Homeland Security concerns with weaponized vehicles, but the concrete is only a temporary solution. Hopefully pretty soon we'll have some black brass pedestrian poles, hopefully something appealing to the rust belt history of Cleveland...
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Re: Cleveland: Public Square Redesign
« Reply #3181 on: September 11, 2017, 10:34:52 AM »
No more room for compromise on Cleveland's Public Square #transit
https://t.co/e4HUOAS0DW

I definitely agree with the writer's sentiments.  Cleveland should be doing more things first class -- like the Flats, UC Uptown and Ohio City -- and even much of downtown today (and even though the PHS chandelier is a little goofy, I definitely don't hate it as much as this writer).  The settling mentality is the old Cleveland and the Public Square adventure portends to be just that -- unless the City can fix the ugly barricade situation and soon.  Even with the ugly barricades in the background, the Euclid/Tower City half of the Square is still attractive and lively.
« Last Edit: September 11, 2017, 12:21:35 PM by clvlndr »

Offline DevonianShale

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Re: Cleveland: Public Square Redesign
« Reply #3182 on: September 14, 2017, 05:17:03 PM »
Concrete planters are now painted green AND filled with plants! (Baby steps...)



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Re: Cleveland: Public Square Redesign
« Reply #3183 on: September 14, 2017, 05:24:10 PM »
They have those barriers in lots of public spaces now unfortunately, though not ideal, they don't have to totally ruin a place as long as everything else is done well.

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Re: Cleveland: Public Square Redesign
« Reply #3184 on: September 19, 2017, 10:56:15 AM »
The barriers contravene the entire design of the Square's promenade, which was the unifying factor of the design.  Whether they're ugly as the concrete K-rails currently in place or something less visually offensive, the design has been compromised and we've now got 2 separate halves of a once unified square.
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