Author Topic: Cleveland: Public Square Redesign  (Read 534166 times)

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Offline KJP

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Re: Cleveland: Public Square Redesign
« Reply #3045 on: February 13, 2017, 06:08:46 PM »
This was what I was referring to: http://www.cleveland19.com/story/34477519/federal-agency-says-rta-to-pay-the-12m

"The federal agency told the GCRTA since buses canít go through Public Square, GCRTA is in breach of the grant agreement for the entire Euclid Corridor project. GCRTA received more than $140 million in federal funds for that project. The FTA said because public transportation canít go through Public Square the federal agency could demand repayment of the entire grant but instead chose to fine the agency $12 million."

Is that entirely accurate?

Yes, that is accurate. GCRTA was the FTA grant applicant. Since Joe Calabrese didn't ignore the city's order and tell the RTA police to take down the barricades, they are now on the hook  for the $12 million. But since bravery is starting to becoming more than a rumor at 1240 West 6th Street, I'm expecting RTA to take legal action against the city to pay some or all of the FTA fine. If they don't, others will. And this doesn't include a number of Title VI complaints being submitted to the FTA and FHWA regarding the city's actions that will affect both the city and RTA.
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Online dhm

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Re: Cleveland: Public Square Redesign
« Reply #3046 on: February 14, 2017, 10:44:15 AM »
Seven days...

http://www.cleveland.com/metro/index.ssf/2017/02/rta_riders_rally_for_reopening.html

RTA riders rally for reopening of Public Square to buses
By: Ginger Christ
CLEVELAND, Ohio - Only eight days remain before the Greater Cleveland Regional Transit Authority will be forced to pay the federal government $12 million for not running buses through Public Square.

Local transit advocates want to see city government take action to reopen Superior Avenue through Public Square to buses before it's too late.

In a rally at City Hall before tonight's Cleveland City Council meeting, Clevelanders for Public Transit, a local riders' organization, called for members of council to force Mayor Frank Jackson to reopen Public Square to buses. Roughly 25 people attended.

"We're trying to make sure they still know we're here," Akshai Singh, a member of Clevelanders for Public Transit, said during the rally. "If they don't decide to move on the Mayor, they're really abdicating their power."


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RTA, city move closer to reopening Public Square to buses
« Reply #3047 on: February 16, 2017, 07:59:05 PM »
From the Plain Dealer:

"A letter from RTA to the federal government indicates that Public Square eventually will reopen to buses, but the city of Cleveland has not yet agreed to the return.

The Greater Cleveland Regional Transit Authority is asking the federal government for more time to reopen the square while it works with the city on lingering safety and security issues."

Link to article.

Edited to correct URL.
« Last Edit: February 17, 2017, 08:00:31 AM by user »

Offline Cleburger

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Re: Cleveland: Public Square Redesign
« Reply #3048 on: February 17, 2017, 07:36:53 AM »
From the Plain Dealer:

"A letter from RTA to the federal government indicates that Public Square eventually will reopen to buses, but the city of Cleveland has not yet agreed to the return.

The Greater Cleveland Regional Transit Authority is asking the federal government for more time to reopen the square while it works with the city on lingering safety and security issues."

Link to article.

Link is not working for me.   Just like the excuse of "lingering safety and security issues."
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Re: Cleveland: Public Square Redesign
« Reply #3049 on: February 17, 2017, 07:56:46 AM »
Quote
Link is not working for me.   Just like the excuse of "lingering safety and security issues."

Apparently I failed at copy and paste, should be working now.
« Last Edit: February 17, 2017, 08:32:57 AM by user »

Offline KJP

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Re: Cleveland: Public Square Redesign
« Reply #3050 on: February 17, 2017, 10:11:02 AM »
"Jackson has said RTA has not been acting in good faith about Public Square and, ultimately, has slowed down the process of reopening the square."

I understand that being the mayor of a big city actually requires a big ego and stubornness to have some success. But for the love of God, recognize your mistakes and move on to the next challenge.
« Last Edit: February 17, 2017, 10:11:49 AM by KJP »
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Offline seicer

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Re: Cleveland: Public Square Redesign
« Reply #3051 on: February 17, 2017, 11:18:48 AM »
Who has the authority, RTA Police or Cleveland Police, to reopen the square?

Offline StrapHanger

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Re: Cleveland: Public Square Redesign
« Reply #3052 on: February 17, 2017, 11:59:56 AM »
^City owned right of way and land, so have to think it's all the city.
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Re: Cleveland: Public Square Redesign
« Reply #3053 on: February 17, 2017, 12:19:15 PM »
Who has the authority, RTA Police or Cleveland Police, to reopen the square?

Ultimately?  Citizens who vote.
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Offline KJP

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Re: Cleveland: Public Square Redesign
« Reply #3054 on: February 18, 2017, 12:47:22 AM »
^City owned right of way and land, so have to think it's all the city.

However GCRTA has joint policing jurisdiction on Public Square as well as all bus-only lanes downtown. I think GCRTA police could remove the barriers and open the the square tomorrow.

BTW, I was in a meeting on Friday where it appears is that it is only a matter of time before the city removes the barriers and reopens the square. I would be surprised if it doesn't happen by March, or at least is announced by then.
« Last Edit: February 18, 2017, 12:48:54 AM by KJP »
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Offline dave68

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Re: Cleveland: Public Square Redesign
« Reply #3055 on: February 18, 2017, 01:12:33 AM »
It will be interesting to see if The FTA says yes to a further extension to either repayment or reopening of Superior Avenue.  In my opinion I would deny RTA's request. The City and RTA have had plenty of time from August 1,2016 to comply with FTA.   RTA's wording ,along with The City, do not guarantee Superior will be reopened. "safety and traffic control physical changes that may need to be made if Public Square is to be opened.  The "if" is not a definitive yes.     

Also what is the added cost for all these overlooked safety requirements on the initial design?  Whom will incur these costs?  Aesthetically how does it alter the existing design?  Will removable bollards be added to either end of Superior Ave when special events are being held?  Many questions remain.


 
« Last Edit: February 18, 2017, 03:45:47 AM by dave68 »

Offline Cleburger

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Re: Cleveland: Public Square Redesign
« Reply #3056 on: February 18, 2017, 07:06:03 AM »
The pedestrians and random running young children running into Superior issue can be solved with some tasteful fencing, perhaps removable for special events.   I like the idea of retractable bollards on Superior for special events, but I'd give them one winter before they are broken and the city doesn't have the resources to fix them.   
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Offline McLovin

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Re: Cleveland: Public Square Redesign
« Reply #3057 on: February 20, 2017, 09:43:46 AM »
I was watching Fox 8 and saw buses driving through the square. I believe they said they are going through a trial test.

Offline user

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Re: Cleveland: Public Square Redesign
« Reply #3058 on: February 20, 2017, 09:50:03 AM »
FTA grants final extension to March 7 to resume bus service on Superior or repay $12M

http://www.cleveland.com/metro/index.ssf/2017/02/feds_give_rta_two_more_weeks_t_1.html#incart_river_mobile_home

Offline TPH2

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Re: Cleveland: Public Square Redesign
« Reply #3059 on: February 20, 2017, 10:28:20 AM »
RTA and city staff are out on Public Square this morning, looking to be running through the logistics of opening Superior. There are also two buses parked on the east end.

The quality of life in cities has much to do with systems of transport...Many cars, used by one or more people, circulate in cities, causing traffic congestion, raising the level of pollution, and consuming enormous quantities of non-renewable energy. -Pope Francis

Offline 327

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Re: Cleveland: Public Square Redesign
« Reply #3060 on: February 20, 2017, 11:43:33 AM »
Hopefully, this dark and silly chapter is coming to an end.  And a nice new square with unencumbered bus service is a good place to end it.
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Re: Cleveland: Public Square Redesign
« Reply #3061 on: February 20, 2017, 12:09:02 PM »
Agreed. What a waste of energy and time. I disagree with opening the road, but it wasn't worth this nonsense. Months of controversies for 600 f'ing feet.
« Last Edit: February 20, 2017, 12:09:31 PM by TBideon »

Offline Cleburger

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Re: Cleveland: Public Square Redesign
« Reply #3062 on: February 20, 2017, 02:15:30 PM »
All because the Mayor was beholden to his corporate handlers and couldn't say "I was wrong...."
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Offline KJP

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Re: Cleveland: Public Square Redesign
« Reply #3063 on: February 20, 2017, 03:49:10 PM »
The time to disagree with it was before the city agreed to it.
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Offline dave68

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Re: Cleveland: Public Square Redesign
« Reply #3064 on: February 21, 2017, 04:12:52 AM »
i did a little photoshopping to an image of Public Square with what I believe RTA and The City are proposing.  Hopefully the added signage and railings are tastefully done.  I still hope pop up bollards can be installed at the east and west ends of Superior Ave instead of the orange and white barricades they have now.  Lastly, I hope they can agree Public Square should be closed to transit on the weekends.  I am also interested  to see how they address Food Truck Tuesdays and The Farmer's Market setups.


I also added a version B which replaces the concept of removable rails to address the safety crosswalks with additional raised planting beds with added concrete detail seating.  I find this a better solution of greening Public Square further and separating the buses from the pedestrians using boy the north and south sections. It addresses the safety and terrorism risks .  The plantings can be low so when a stage is set on Superior Ave for special events the sight lines  remain open.
« Last Edit: February 21, 2017, 05:15:53 AM by dave68 »

Offline TPH2

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Re: Cleveland: Public Square Redesign
« Reply #3065 on: February 21, 2017, 09:37:33 AM »
RTA hopes to reopen Public Square to buses by March 6

By Ginger Christ, The Plain Dealer
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on February 21, 2017 at 9:29 AM, updated February 21, 2017 at 9:38 AM
CLEVELAND, Ohio - The Greater Cleveland Regional Transit Authority plans to reopen Public Square to buses in less than two weeks, if all goes as planned.

During an RTA board meeting today, RTA CEO Joe Calabrese said he hopes to have buses running on Superior through the square by March 6.

That is one day before the final deadline given to RTA by the Federal Transit Administration to reopen the square to buses before it will enforce a $12-million fee.

http://www.cleveland.com/metro/index.ssf/2017/02/rta_plans_to_reopen_public_squ.html
« Last Edit: February 21, 2017, 09:37:57 AM by TPH2 »
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Re: Cleveland: Public Square Redesign
« Reply #3066 on: February 21, 2017, 10:52:13 AM »
i did a little photoshopping to an image of Public Square with what I believe RTA and The City are proposing.  Hopefully the added signage and railings are tastefully done. 

I'm not sure how they can accomplish this without a lot of visible signage. Put yourself in the shoes of an unfamiliar driver...I'm thinking overhead signs would be the safest (and ugliest) option.

Offline AmrapinVA

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Re: Cleveland: Public Square Redesign
« Reply #3067 on: February 21, 2017, 11:44:15 AM »
i did a little photoshopping to an image of Public Square with what I believe RTA and The City are proposing.  Hopefully the added signage and railings are tastefully done. 

I'm not sure how they can accomplish this without a lot of visible signage. Put yourself in the shoes of an unfamiliar driver...I'm thinking overhead signs would be the safest (and ugliest) option.

What about gates which open from an overhead sensor? Or is that even uglier?

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Re: Cleveland: Public Square Redesign
« Reply #3068 on: February 21, 2017, 12:20:47 PM »
i did a little photoshopping to an image of Public Square with what I believe RTA and The City are proposing.  Hopefully the added signage and railings are tastefully done. 

I'm not sure how they can accomplish this without a lot of visible signage. Put yourself in the shoes of an unfamiliar driver...I'm thinking overhead signs would be the safest (and ugliest) option.

What about gates which open from an overhead sensor? Or is that even uglier?

Ha, or how about a rusted medieval drawbridge. It could be an ODOT/Larping Society joint venture.

Offline viscomi

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Re: Cleveland: Public Square Redesign
« Reply #3069 on: February 21, 2017, 01:19:08 PM »
^ lol  Plus we got that 12 million we don't have to pay back anymore, which is pretty much found money burning a hole in our pockets now!

Offline Bookman

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Re: Cleveland: Public Square Redesign
« Reply #3070 on: February 21, 2017, 01:31:25 PM »
^^I think they should look at the Superior block (East 3rd to East Roadway, West 3rd to West Roadway) coming into the Square and make the far right lanes for all non-bus traffic, put an island with bus shelter in the next lane and then the third lane from the curb becomes bus only.  Outbound from the Square shouldn't need to change.  The 55 (Cleveland State Line) has to make the turn westbound on Superior from the second lane from the curb anyway, this would resolve the jockeying for position with the cars that will have to turn right.

Offline Cleburger

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Re: Cleveland: Public Square Redesign
« Reply #3071 on: February 21, 2017, 07:03:11 PM »
How about some "bus only signs."    I travel all around the world and these bus and pedestrian zones don't seem to be a problem anywhere but here....And actually, to take it one step further, extend the zone from E6th to W3rd and keep cars off the entire stretch.

« Last Edit: February 21, 2017, 07:04:12 PM by Cleburger »
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Re: Cleveland: Public Square Redesign
« Reply #3072 on: February 21, 2017, 09:01:40 PM »
How about some "bus only signs."    I travel all around the world and these bus and pedestrian zones don't seem to be a problem anywhere but here....And actually, to take it one step further, extend the zone from E6th to W3rd and keep cars off the entire stretch.

So these would be overhead signs, correct? Any normal size vehicle that's behind a bus is potentially going to have a hard time seeing these.

Painting the streets as bus only could work, but when there's city traffic you can't generally see what's on the roadway.

Offline KJP

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Re: Cleveland: Public Square Redesign
« Reply #3073 on: February 21, 2017, 09:21:26 PM »
Then put bollards in the middle of the street that are just tall enough for a bus to safely clear, but that a car could not clear without causing severe damage to it.
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Re: Cleveland: Public Square Redesign
« Reply #3074 on: February 21, 2017, 09:43:08 PM »
How about some "bus only signs."    I travel all around the world and these bus and pedestrian zones don't seem to be a problem anywhere but here....And actually, to take it one step further, extend the zone from E6th to W3rd and keep cars off the entire stretch.

So these would be overhead signs, correct? Any normal size vehicle that's behind a bus is potentially going to have a hard time seeing these.

Painting the streets as bus only could work, but when there's city traffic you can't generally see what's on the roadway.

Lots of cities paint their bus lanes a different color, that way it's noticeable: https://ggwash.org/images/posts/201506-180025.jpg
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Offline Enginerd

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Re: Cleveland: Public Square Redesign
« Reply #3075 on: February 22, 2017, 08:34:48 AM »
For the most part, every thing mentioned is already in place. At Public Square there are overhead "Bus Only" signs above the lanes, next to the signal heads. There are also "Bus Only" pavement markings in the two thru lanes and curb lane. They just aren't done particularly well imho. Theres more that could be done to make the signage more conspicuous.

The use of red colored pavement would require approval from FHWA, because it's currently deemed experimental.

Edit: for clarity
« Last Edit: February 22, 2017, 03:32:13 PM by Enginerd »

Offline viscomi

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Re: Cleveland: Public Square Redesign
« Reply #3076 on: February 22, 2017, 11:51:22 AM »
As I see it, opening up Superior to buses is pretty turn key at this time. As mentioned, the pieces are already there. Signage, signals barriers on the edges to prevent people from wondering into the street.  As it was all designed from the beginning. I think we have been smoke and mirrored for so long that it is easy to think otherwise. That said, can there be improvements, absolutely. I really like the idea of the pavement color coding. 

Offline KJP

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Re: Cleveland: Public Square Redesign
« Reply #3077 on: February 23, 2017, 10:21:56 AM »
People will drive into the bus only lanes on Public Square -- that's just a fact of life especially when people already drive into subway tunnels in transit-savvy Toronto...

This will take some time to clear. Far more than it took the driver to get to this point, unfortunately. They fled, for the record. https://t.co/hln4S4aSHw
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Offline KJP

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Re: Cleveland: Public Square Redesign
« Reply #3078 on: February 27, 2017, 06:03:35 PM »
Getting ready at 5pm today for the Monday reopening of the Public Square transitway. RTA is paying for the pavement striping and the city is paying for the pedestrian security which temporarily may include jersey barriers (apparently it was the only thing they could quickly install).
« Last Edit: February 27, 2017, 06:36:18 PM by KJP »
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Offline dave68

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Re: Cleveland: Public Square Redesign
« Reply #3079 on: February 27, 2017, 11:32:34 PM »
I am confused on the pedestrian crosswalk striping down the center of Superior Ave.  Aren't the crosswalk areas the two cobblestone paths with handicap accessible pavement?   

I also have to wonder if buses were allowed to use Superior Ave back in August would all of this be necessary. 
« Last Edit: February 28, 2017, 02:05:22 PM by dave68 »

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