Author Topic: Cleveland: Downtown Office Development News  (Read 406995 times)

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Offline KJP

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Re: Cleveland: Downtown Office Development News
« Reply #1890 on: April 18, 2017, 06:32:18 PM »
And large swaths of parking craters are a selling point? An 80-story building is an urban cod piece for the insecure. When large sections of your downtown are windswept wastelands, what economic sense does it make to overbuild a skyscraper?? Cities like New York, Chicago, Toronto, and Philadelphia are building super-talls because their downtowns are built-out. In the absence of these market conditions, a super-tall takes away from your downtown sidewalk activity and thus, downtown retail/restaurant business activity.

Give me Portland, Oregon's lack of super-tall skyscrapers and urban vibrancy any day of the week.
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Offline ryanfrazier

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Re: Cleveland: Downtown Office Development News
« Reply #1891 on: April 18, 2017, 07:00:03 PM »
Spreading office space across multiple buildings not only would fill in parking craters, but also allow more frontage for street-level retail and restaurant uses. This would make for a livelier city than concentrating development in one building.

Offline Pugu

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Re: Cleveland: Downtown Office Development News
« Reply #1892 on: April 18, 2017, 08:23:54 PM »
Quote from: KJP
And large swaths of parking craters are a selling point? An 80-story building is an urban cod piece for the insecure. When large sections of your downtown are windswept wastelands, what economic sense does it make to overbuild a skyscraper?? Cities like New York, Chicago, Toronto, and Philadelphia are building super-talls because their downtowns are built-out. In the absence of these market conditions, a super-tall takes away from your downtown sidewalk activity and thus, downtown retail/restaurant business activity.

OK. I'll agree with this. But the 'sidewalk activity" is only real if there is street facing retail. Post 1960-Cleveland has failed miserably at this---with either setbacks (Erieview Plaza) or No retail.    Key tower--none. BP Bldg? Maybe just one or two stores---even US Bank locks their door to Euclid Ave forcing customers to enter from the atrium. Erieview plaza? none.  If the zoning code does not force ground floor retail facing the street (which it doesn't) then good design principles must be adopted by the owner....(after encouragement from somewhere)....

Offline KJP

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Re: Cleveland: Downtown Office Development News
« Reply #1893 on: April 20, 2017, 10:28:18 AM »
I haven't heard any recent proposals for office building -- or any building -- at the site of the old Hippodrome movie theater on Euclid at E. 8th Street, which is currently an ugly surface lot now used by Heinen's shoppers among others.  This space is of substantial size for a building and, like 515 across (and down) the street, a parking garage could form the base along with street-level retail which would fill in the missing gap between Public Square and E. 9th.  Is there any potential here?  It's a great location on a number of levels including proximity to quality mass transit.

Whatever happens with Medical Mutual's HQ has to be set in motion soon. Their lease at the Rose Building expires in late-2020, BUT their lease at the Strongsville office is due to expire in early-2020. I'm not aware of the lease situation at their Beachwood, Copley and Toledo offices, which also are rumored to be up for consolidation. That's more than 2,500 employees, including from their HealthSpan acquisition. By comparison, Sherwin-Williams (pre-Valspar) has about 3,000 employees total in its headquarters and in its research center.

Even if Medical Mutual combines all of its Northern Ohio offices into a single building downtown, that's about 500,000 square feet. With average floor plates of 25,000 square feet, that's only 20 stories (not including structured parking or general office space made available for lease). BTW, Medical Mutual has said they probably would not own their building, so we may not see a property transfer occur before news of a new building becomes public.
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Offline mrnyc

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Re: Cleveland: Downtown Office Development News
« Reply #1894 on: April 20, 2017, 11:40:14 AM »
Quote from: KJP
And large swaths of parking craters are a selling point? An 80-story building is an urban cod piece for the insecure. When large sections of your downtown are windswept wastelands, what economic sense does it make to overbuild a skyscraper?? Cities like New York, Chicago, Toronto, and Philadelphia are building super-talls because their downtowns are built-out. In the absence of these market conditions, a super-tall takes away from your downtown sidewalk activity and thus, downtown retail/restaurant business activity.

OK. I'll agree with this. But the 'sidewalk activity" is only real if there is street facing retail. Post 1960-Cleveland has failed miserably at this---with either setbacks (Erieview Plaza) or No retail.    Key tower--none. BP Bldg? Maybe just one or two stores---even US Bank locks their door to Euclid Ave forcing customers to enter from the atrium. Erieview plaza? none.  If the zoning code does not force ground floor retail facing the street (which it doesn't) then good design principles must be adopted by the owner....(after encouragement from somewhere)....


well, the zoning issues are one thing, but its not always bad to not have much else going on in office buldings. its gets the employees out on the streets and in the shops. even in nyc, in my neighborhood for example, we had google move into the massive port authority building some years back now. they rather famously built ultra nice in-house food service for employees as a perk (and it is great, let me tell ya, i used to go load up when my spouse and friends worked for them for a few years, ha!). but the negative result of that is that many of the small mom and pop shops outside that traditionally catered to port authority bldg workers went out of business. the strip is slowly coming back, but changed and is still struggling somewhat. so i'm all for getting employees out of the office buildings and into the streets where possible.
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Offline Pugu

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Re: Cleveland: Downtown Office Development News
« Reply #1895 on: April 20, 2017, 11:59:15 AM »
^that's precisely what I'm saying---we need street-facing retail (shops/restaurants)---not shops within buildings--and almost all the post-1960 bldgs--from Key to BP to Erieview--to anything at the Clinic--creates just a wall of brick to people on the sidewalk. We need to change that. I was responding to KJP who was suggesting that just by having 2 25-story bldgs instead of one 50-story bldg, that there would be street life. There won't be unless retail is built on the outside of the building facing the sidewalks.

Offline 327

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Re: Cleveland: Downtown Office Development News
« Reply #1896 on: April 20, 2017, 12:07:56 PM »
^that's precisely what I'm saying---we need street-facing retail (shops/restaurants)---not shops within buildings--and almost all the post-1960 bldgs--from Key to BP to Erieview--to anything at the Clinic--creates just a wall of brick to people on the sidewalk. We need to change that. I was responding to KJP who was suggesting that just by having 2 25-story bldgs instead of one 50-story bldg, that there would be street life. There won't be unless retail is built on the outside of the building facing the sidewalks.


I'll add one more caveat: it needs to be open to the public.  Seems like a given, but IIRC that new CSU housing building on the former JCC site has ground floor retail that is forbidden to all but residents.
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Offline Pugu

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Re: Cleveland: Downtown Office Development News
« Reply #1897 on: April 20, 2017, 02:06:17 PM »
^How stupid. And bad for the retailer as it limits the profit potential by minimizing the number of customers. I hope common sense will prevail here....

Offline YABO713

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Re: Cleveland: Downtown Office Development News
« Reply #1898 on: April 20, 2017, 02:55:07 PM »
I agree with most of you guys. I think MedMu would benefit most from a Weston-esque proposal. Perhaps a 30 and 20 story building with a courtyard in the middle and a skybridge connecting them. I also agree that the retail needs to be A) Noticeable from the street, and B) open to the public.
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Offline Clefan98

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Re: Cleveland: Downtown Office Development News
« Reply #1899 on: April 30, 2017, 08:30:53 AM »
NRP Group planning on a move to Halle Building by end of year

NRP Group, a powerhouse national developer of apartment complexes and other multifamily properties, is set to make some real estate noise on its own account.

The company, founded in 1995 and based in Garfield Heights, plans to move by the end of the year to the Halle Building in downtown Cleveland, contingent on the approval of state and local incentives. NRP Group said late Friday, April 28, that it's working with JobsOhio and the city of Cleveland on incentives to complete the relocation plan.

If all goes as planned, NRP Group will take about 43,000 square feet and will occupy the entire fourth floor of the Halle Building, 1228 Euclid Ave. The company declined to disclose how much space it has in its existing building in Garfield Heights, at 5309 Transportation Blvd.

http://www.crainscleveland.com/article/20170430/NEWS/170439990/nrp-group-planning-on-a-move-to-halle-building-by-end-of-year?X-IgnoreUserAgent=1

Offline KJP

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Re: Cleveland: Downtown Office Development News
« Reply #1900 on: April 30, 2017, 08:58:09 AM »
NRP Group has some amazing, mixed-use and high-rise developments around the country. Until the Edison and A Place For Us, they've been very quiet in Cleveland. Hopefully this move represents a change for them. I wonder if they're the national developer that wants to build the 30-story residential high-rise in Playhouse Square? They also have an aggressive masterplan for the development of the area around the West 117th Red Line station.
« Last Edit: April 30, 2017, 08:58:18 AM by KJP »
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Offline YO to the CLE

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Re: Cleveland: Downtown Office Development News
« Reply #1901 on: April 30, 2017, 09:00:02 AM »
Yay! I was waiting for them to officially break this news. I can tell you that the job growth here will be quite accelerated over the next few years. We are basically busting at the seams in our current building.

Offline freethink

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Re: Cleveland: Downtown Office Development News
« Reply #1902 on: May 01, 2017, 11:14:48 PM »
Here is Michelle's take on the NRP move and as usual with @mjarboe we learn a few more details that we didn't know.

http://realestate.cleveland.com/realestate-news/2017/05/nrp_group_plans_headquarters_m.html
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Offline Dougal

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Re: Cleveland: Downtown Office Development News
« Reply #1903 on: May 19, 2017, 04:01:52 PM »
https://www.thestreet.com/story/14141559/1/ibm-to-move-thousands-of-workers-back-into-the-office.html?puc=yahoo&cm_ven=YAHOO&yptr=yahoo

IBM's decision to kill telecommuting and bring its workers back into the office may give a boost to office construction everywhere.  IBM said the projected real estate savings were never achieved and productivity suffered.
« Last Edit: May 19, 2017, 04:02:30 PM by Dougal »

Offline TBideon

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Re: Cleveland: Downtown Office Development News
« Reply #1904 on: May 19, 2017, 07:39:41 PM »
Nothing says productivity like commute times, interoffice tensions, and employee relocation costs.
« Last Edit: May 19, 2017, 07:40:21 PM by TBideon »

Offline Dougal

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Re: Cleveland: Downtown Office Development News
« Reply #1905 on: May 20, 2017, 12:34:22 PM »
^ One theorist suggested it was also a lower-cost way for IBM to reduce headcount.

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Re: Cleveland: Downtown Office Development News
« Reply #1906 on: May 26, 2017, 06:53:42 PM »
Sherwin-Williams wins U.S. antitrust approval to buy Valspar: FTC

Paint-maker Sherwin-Williams (SHW.N) has won U.S. antitrust approval to buy U.S. rival Valspar Corp (VAL.N), the Federal Trade Commission said on Friday.

To gain antitrust approval, the FTC required the companies to sell Valsparís North America Industrial Wood Coatings Business, which makes stains, sealants and other products used for kitchen cabinets and other goods.

The FTC, which valued the deal at $11.3 billion, said that the asset sale was needed because just three companies currently make the wood stains and sealants. A merger of two of them, Sherwin-Williams and Valspar, could lead to higher prices for the products.

https://www.google.com/amp/mobile.reuters.com/article/amp/idUSKBN18M263

Next stop, new skyscraper?
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Offline YABO713

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Re: Cleveland: Downtown Office Development News
« Reply #1907 on: May 27, 2017, 12:47:59 PM »
KJP - I think the time table will all depend on cash reserves. From what I understand, they bought Valspar almost entirely with their own money. Lord knows S-W has it, but it will be interesting to see how much they seek in financing or if they'd like to enlist the help of a developer and become part of a larger project - though I have heard that would not be S-W's preference.

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Offline KJP

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Re: Cleveland: Downtown Office Development News
« Reply #1908 on: May 27, 2017, 01:20:57 PM »
They could build the skyscraper just from the $420 million received in the required sale of Valsparís North America Industrial Wood Coatings.
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Offline Dougal

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Re: Cleveland: Downtown Office Development News
« Reply #1909 on: May 27, 2017, 01:35:30 PM »
KJP - I think the time table will all depend on cash reserves.

Does the Trump or Congressional tax bill change depreciation rules? If that's on the table, it could delay lease-vs-buy decisions.

Offline KJP

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Re: Cleveland: Downtown Office Development News
« Reply #1910 on: May 27, 2017, 01:46:20 PM »
I wouldn't expect Sherwin Williams to be ready to make a decision about a new headquarters anytime soon anyway. There's lots of organizational, staffing, site selection and other issues to sort through in the meantime.
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Offline mrclifton88

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Re: Cleveland: Downtown Office Development News
« Reply #1911 on: May 27, 2017, 02:25:08 PM »
Weren't they ready to announce the new headquarters at one time before the Valspar deal?  How far along had they gotten in that process?  Did they have to scrap everything and start over and just create a larger building?  Just curious

Offline YABO713

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Re: Cleveland: Downtown Office Development News
« Reply #1912 on: May 27, 2017, 02:36:49 PM »
Weren't they ready to announce the new headquarters at one time before the Valspar deal?  How far along had they gotten in that process?  Did they have to scrap everything and start over and just create a larger building?  Just curious

To KJP's above point, I think there was nothing more than an acknowledgment that demand for a new HQ exists.

But no, they had not really said anything explicitly. And from what I am hearing, there will be an additional 400-600 employees in Cleveland as a result of S-W's effort to move Valspar employees to Cleveland. Having said that, I am not sure how much of that staff will be research vs administrative; that dynamic will likely change how big the complex has to be and if it will or will not include the scientific wing of the company.
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Offline KJP

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Re: Cleveland: Downtown Office Development News
« Reply #1913 on: May 27, 2017, 04:56:06 PM »
There were rumors that S-W was going to announce a new HQ at its big sales convention in Orlando in the winter of 2016. But it never happened and then in March the proposed merger with Valspar was announced. But I didn't get the impression that specifics of a new HQ were going to be announced in Orlando, only that S-W needed one. The reason why I got that impression is that sources in the development community were saying S-W was still considering different sites during the winter. Then everything went quiet on the HQ front once the Valspar deal became public.

Regarding Valspar's research vs. administrative employees, and who is staying in Minneapolis and who is going, this March 2017 article may offer some guidance:

What is known is that Minneapolis will lose Valsparís corporate headquarters. However, some operations are expected to stay, including recently renovated research labs that sit next to the corporate offices, city officials have said. Corporate employees affected by the merger already have started to find employment elsewhere. As of one year ago, Valspar had 10,500 employees in 25 countries, including about 600 in Minneapolis[/b].
SOURCE: http://www.startribune.com/higher-expenses-severance-packages-eat-into-valspar-profit/415690524/

Then, there was this 2014 which offered a breakdown of administrative/research employment, although Valspar had grown as a company since:

In January, about 270 corporate employees will return to the former headquarters building at 3rd Street and 11th Avenue S., which underwent a $30 million renovation and reopened in June as an R&D center for the paint and coatings company. The R&D center houses 110 scientists.
SOURCE: http://www.startribune.com/valspar-will-move-back-to-its-former-minneapolis-headquarters/274681811/

So it sounds like upwards of 110 research employees will stay in Minneapolis and perhaps 400 corporate employees will move to Cleveland. That leaves nearly 100 employees unaccounted for, and those may be some of the positions being bought out due to their responsibilities duplicated by already existing Cleveland employees. But note that Valspar won't be absorbed into S-W and disappear. It will remain as a corporate entity, albeit a subsidiary of S-W. So it's possible that some duplicity in job functions will be tolerated.

Even if it's "just" 400 jobs moved to Cleveland, that's perhaps four additional floors in a new skyscraper that wouldn't have been there. S-W has 2,800 employees in its corporate HQ, potentially growing to 3,200 with the addition of Valspar. And then there's the contingency space to allow for growth. S-W has been growing year-over-year at a rate of better than 6 percent over the past five years. So if that continues, in five years S-W's corporate HQ employment could approach 4,000.

And that doesn't include the 350-400 workers at the Breen Technology Center by the river. Breen is at least 30 years old, based on info I was able to find about S-W replacing 26-year-old equipment at the facility several years ago. S-W could continue to maintain that building or move its functions into the new HQ.
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Offline KJP

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Re: Cleveland: Downtown Office Development News
« Reply #1914 on: May 27, 2017, 09:46:07 PM »
I wouldn't expect Sherwin Williams to be ready to make a decision about a new headquarters anytime soon anyway. There's lots of organizational, staffing, site selection and other issues to sort through in the meantime.

I may be wrong about what I posted in the quote, above. The article I posted in my last message referenced Valspar giving buyouts to employees who aren't making the move to Cleveland. That tells me S-W has already made its organizational and staffing decisions. So a new headquarters tower could be coming sooner than I had previously thought.

EDIT: the news source for Valspar's R&D staffing staying in Minneapolis is from city officials. Not Valspar/S-W. From what I know of the interaction between corporate and R&D at S-W, proximity between them is VERY important. And by that, I mean walking distance proximity. S-W likes face-to-face interaction with its R&D staff. That's possible now with the Breen center on the other side of Canal Road from the HQ. That becomes a tiny bit more difficult with S-W moving to someplace like the Jacobs lot on Public Square. For Valspar, that becomes impossible with R&D left behind in Minneapolis.

If R&D for both Valspar and S-W moves into the same building with corporate, that's another 400-500 employees under the same roof with 3,200 +/- corporate staff that could be growing to 4,000 employees in about five years, and who knows how many in the next 10, 20 or more years. If I'm S-W, I design a tower to accommodate at least 5,000 workers.  If we're talking up to 500 R&D workers, I'd figure about 150,000 sf. And for another 4,500 workers (including growth contingencies for the long-term, but a sub-lease in the short-term), I'd figure about 900,000 sf. That's a total of 1.1 million sf, including first-floor retail/atrium space. With floorplates averaging 25,000 sf, we could be talking a 44-story building (not including parking).
« Last Edit: May 27, 2017, 11:36:03 PM by KJP »
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Offline simplythis

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Re: Cleveland: Downtown Office Development News
« Reply #1915 on: May 27, 2017, 10:21:10 PM »
so how tall of a skyscraper are we looking at? Are we talking taller than Key Bank?

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Re: Cleveland: Downtown Office Development News
« Reply #1916 on: May 27, 2017, 10:34:47 PM »
I was doing the math and editing my previous post while you were writing that. :)
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Re: Cleveland: Downtown Office Development News
« Reply #1917 on: May 27, 2017, 11:04:10 PM »
Just found this on the Cuyahoga County GIS:

Sherwin-Williams
Breen Technology Center

601 CANAL RD
CLEVELAND, OH. 44113
PPN# 101-20-003

 (3 buildings)

BUILDING ONE

YEAR BUILT -- 1948 (remodeled 1986)
Usable Area -- 92,600 sf
Total Story Height -- 5
Air Conditioning -- CENTRAL
Heat Type -- HOT-WATR/STM
Exterior Walls -- BRICK
Framing -- REINFORCED CONCRETE
Wall Height -- 12
Construction Class -- CLASS B
Half Baths-- 8

BUILDING TWO

YEAR BUILT -- 1998
Usable Area -- 45,680 sf
Total Story Height -- 4
Air Conditioning -- CENTRAL
Heat Type -- FORCED-AIR
Exterior Walls -- INS MTL
Framing -- FIRE RESISTANT
Wall Height -- 15
Construction Class -- CLASS C
Bathrooms -- 6

BUILDING THREE

YEAR BUILT -- 2005
Usable Area -- 2,013 sf
Total Story Height -- 1
Air Conditioning -- PACKAGE A/C
Heat Type -- FORCED-AIR
Exterior Walls -- BRICK
Framing -- FIRE RESISTANT
Wall Height -- 22
Construction Class -- CLASS C
Bathrooms -- 0
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Offline Pugu

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Re: Cleveland: Downtown Office Development News
« Reply #1918 on: May 28, 2017, 03:46:34 PM »
Quote from: KJP
I may be wrong about what I posted in the quote, above. The article I posted in my last message referenced Valspar giving buyouts to employees who aren't making the move to Cleveland. That tells me S-W has already made its organizational and staffing decisions. So a new headquarters tower could be coming sooner than I had previously thought.

EDIT: the news source for Valspar's R&D staffing staying in Minneapolis is from city officials. Not Valspar/S-W. From what I know of the interaction between corporate and R&D at S-W, proximity between them is VERY important. And by that, I mean walking distance proximity. S-W likes face-to-face interaction with its R&D staff. That's possible now with the Breen center on the other side of Canal Road from the HQ. That becomes a tiny bit more difficult with S-W moving to someplace like the Jacobs lot on Public Square. For Valspar, that becomes impossible with R&D left behind in Minneapolis.

If R&D for both Valspar and S-W moves into the same building with corporate, that's another 400-500 employees under the same roof with 3,200 +/- corporate staff that could be growing to 4,000 employees in about five years, and who knows how many in the next 10, 20 or more years. If I'm S-W, I design a tower to accommodate at least 5,000 workers.  If we're talking up to 500 R&D workers, I'd figure about 150,000 sf. And for another 4,500 workers (including growth contingencies for the long-term, but a sub-lease in the short-term), I'd figure about 900,000 sf. That's a total of 1.1 million sf, including first-floor retail/atrium space. With floorplates averaging 25,000 sf, we could be talking a 44-story building (not including parking).

1. The Jacobs lot is not THAT far of a walk to Canal!
2. I'd love see another 50+ story bldg in the skyline---and that could be done even if SW only needed 20 floors and the remainder by other tenants.
3. Regarding SW using 44 stories---is the work of R&D suitable for a vertical office bldg? Seems like most such facilities are short-wide bldgs.  But also, if they are doing testing and use volatile chemicals in processes, is it a good idea to have R&D (and the inherent dangers) in the same bldg as office workers?  Does the zoning code even allow it?

Offline KJP

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Re: Cleveland: Downtown Office Development News
« Reply #1919 on: May 28, 2017, 06:09:23 PM »
1. The Jacobs lot is not THAT far of a walk to Canal!


Which is why I said "Tiny."
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Offline w28th

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Re: Cleveland: Downtown Office Development News
« Reply #1920 on: May 28, 2017, 08:37:50 PM »
Just found this on the Cuyahoga County GIS:

Sherwin-Williams
Breen Technology Center

601 CANAL RD
CLEVELAND, OH. 44113
PPN# 101-20-003

 (3 buildings)

BUILDING ONE

YEAR BUILT -- 1948 (remodeled 1986)
Usable Area -- 92,600 sf
Total Story Height -- 5
Air Conditioning -- CENTRAL
Heat Type -- HOT-WATR/STM
Exterior Walls -- BRICK
Framing -- REINFORCED CONCRETE
Wall Height -- 12
Construction Class -- CLASS B
Half Baths-- 8

BUILDING TWO

YEAR BUILT -- 1998
Usable Area -- 45,680 sf
Total Story Height -- 4
Air Conditioning -- CENTRAL
Heat Type -- FORCED-AIR
Exterior Walls -- INS MTL
Framing -- FIRE RESISTANT
Wall Height -- 15
Construction Class -- CLASS C
Bathrooms -- 6

BUILDING THREE

YEAR BUILT -- 2005
Usable Area -- 2,013 sf
Total Story Height -- 1
Air Conditioning -- PACKAGE A/C
Heat Type -- FORCED-AIR
Exterior Walls -- BRICK
Framing -- FIRE RESISTANT
Wall Height -- 22
Construction Class -- CLASS C
Bathrooms -- 0

Is this a lot consolidation?
"When you stand at the corner of Euclid Avenue and East Ninth Street in Cleveland, you stand at one of the busiest corners in the world -- and in the heart of a shopping district known far and wide for its many fine shops."

Offline KJP

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Re: Cleveland: Downtown Office Development News
« Reply #1921 on: May 28, 2017, 10:58:24 PM »
I'm not aware of anything recent.
"George Washington could never tell a lie.
Richard Nixon could never tell the truth.
Donald Trump cannot tell the difference."

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