Author Topic: Cleveland: Crime & Safety Discussion  (Read 673635 times)

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Offline willyboy

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Re: Cleveland: Crime & Safety Discussion
« Reply #5040 on: April 18, 2017, 01:32:05 PM »
after he said "I don't know" for the umpteenth time

Sounds like the Cleveland Mayor alright.  It's always cringe worthy watching him speak.   
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Offline KJP

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Re: Cleveland: Crime & Safety Discussion
« Reply #5041 on: April 18, 2017, 02:56:21 PM »
Some opposition mayoral candidate is going to have a field day stitching together all of those "I don't knows" into an ad. Or maybe I'm giving Jackson's opposition way too much credit here.
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Offline Pugu

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Re: Cleveland: Crime & Safety Discussion
« Reply #5042 on: April 18, 2017, 05:18:03 PM »
^Maybe. I don't know. Ha!

Offline E Rocc

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Re: Cleveland: Crime & Safety Discussion
« Reply #5043 on: April 19, 2017, 07:50:00 AM »
Some opposition mayoral candidate is going to have a field day stitching together all of those "I don't knows" into an ad. Or maybe I'm giving Jackson's opposition way too much credit here.

And the close would be "we've known about this for years".
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Offline Pugu

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Re: Cleveland: Crime & Safety Discussion
« Reply #5044 on: April 19, 2017, 09:24:50 AM »
And finally, "But it is what it is."

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Re: Cleveland: Crime & Safety Discussion
« Reply #5045 on: April 21, 2017, 09:13:21 AM »
While the Facebook killer episode is over, the killing of neighborhoods continues while Loomis and his lazy CPD watches...

Cleveland loses yet another neighbhorhood anchor to violence: Phillip Morris
http://www.cleveland.com/morris/index.ssf/2017/04/cleveland_loses_yet_another_ne.html#incart_most-commented_metro_article
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Offline seicer

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Re: Cleveland: Crime & Safety Discussion
« Reply #5046 on: April 21, 2017, 10:51:59 AM »
The media has fetishized the killing by Steve Stephens to an absurd extent. To recap:
- The P-D kept referencing that it was a Facebook Live video long after it had been debunked as just a video uploaded to Facebook.
- The P-D kept posting about the killing on social media in an almost continuous stream, whether there were updates or not. Information posted by the P-D was conflicting and bordered on irresponsible. Was he in Philadelphia where it was falsely reported that he was seen there? Or in Toledo? Or in Michigan? What about Lorain? Erie? New York? The P-D couldn't keep it straight and in times like that, it's better to err in caution than to spread misinformation.
- The P-D also fetishized over where Stephens' acquired his car. Kia of Bedford!
- The P-D then tied his killing over his debts from gambling. It had no relevance but there were two stories devoted to it.
- And don't get me started over Jackson.

And for the Kuznik family? Is there even an FBI inquiry? Round-the-clock coverage? Two anchors in a neighborhood gunned down over two vehicles? Nothing. Nothing from the P-D. Nothing from Jackson. I'm surprised he hasn't thrown the police under the bus again. This comment sums up my thoughts:

"Cleveland wants more businesses and individuals to inhabit this city, but why would they with the ridiculous amount of corruption and violent crime that brings this city into the national spotlight? And the attitudes of Mayor "you don't understand the culture" Jackson, and Judge Joan Synenberg are abetting these criminals because they are excusing their behavior."

Maybe if we had that $2 million dirt bike track...
« Last Edit: April 21, 2017, 10:52:14 AM by seicer »

Offline StrapHanger

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Re: Cleveland: Crime & Safety Discussion
« Reply #5047 on: April 21, 2017, 11:11:14 AM »
^Why would the FBI be involved in the Kuznik case? 

I'm not a fan of salacious crime coverage, but the circumstances of the Godwin murder (known assailant, multi state manhunt, the Facebook posts) don't really compare to the Kuznik murders, horrible as they are.

And Cleveland.com has run several stories about the Kuznik case, so I have no idea why you are claiming there's been no coverage.

[typo]
« Last Edit: April 21, 2017, 11:25:28 AM by StrapHanger »
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Offline Hts121

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Re: Cleveland: Crime & Safety Discussion
« Reply #5048 on: April 21, 2017, 11:42:49 AM »
I also fail to understand why the FBI would get involved in the Kuznik murders.  Are there some suspicions that this may be mob related and give rise to a RICO case?

Seems to me that the Kuznik case has received more coverage than most murders in Cleveland?  Is there a reason why it should receive more?
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Offline E Rocc

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Re: Cleveland: Crime & Safety Discussion
« Reply #5049 on: April 21, 2017, 12:39:46 PM »
I also fail to understand why the FBI would get involved in the Kuznik murders.  Are there some suspicions that this may be mob related and give rise to a RICO case?

Seems to me that the Kuznik case has received more coverage than most murders in Cleveland?  Is there a reason why it should receive more?

Multiple assailants, several cars and documents stolen?  Lots of potential reasons why.
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Offline E Rocc

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Re: Cleveland: Crime & Safety Discussion
« Reply #5050 on: April 21, 2017, 01:21:05 PM »
While the Facebook killer episode is over, the killing of neighborhoods continues while Loomis and his lazy CPD watches...

Cleveland loses yet another neighbhorhood anchor to violence: Phillip Morris
http://www.cleveland.com/morris/index.ssf/2017/04/cleveland_loses_yet_another_ne.html#incart_most-commented_metro_article

I commented asking if he could support his "North Collinwood imploding" comment with numbers.   185th seems a tad shaky, but Waterloo's doing well it seems.

I'm not sure it's fair to call CPD "lazy".   Loomis can support his argument about being understaffed with facts, and they are rather hamstrung by the "consent decree" and the current admin's overreaction to same.   I wouldn't be surprised to see one or more mayoral candidate(s) ask Sessions to vacate it.
"I mean, this man just can't be president of the US. I mean, they got this button, it's in a briefcase, he's gonna find it."
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Online down4cle

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Re: Cleveland: Crime & Safety Discussion
« Reply #5051 on: April 21, 2017, 01:26:35 PM »
Honestly, the CPD was shiite even before the consent decree.  The consent decree might actually be what they need to get their act together.

Offline Hts121

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Re: Cleveland: Crime & Safety Discussion
« Reply #5052 on: April 21, 2017, 01:44:33 PM »

I'm not sure it's fair to call CPD "lazy".   Loomis can support his argument about being understaffed with facts, and they are rather hamstrung by the "consent decree" and the current admin's overreaction to same.   I wouldn't be surprised to see one or more mayoral candidate(s) ask Sessions to vacate it.


Without speaking in generalities, how has the consent decree "hamstrung" the CPD?  If you are talking about the components aimed at reducing excessive use of force, the City had already put many of those practices in place before the consent decree was officially entered, and is not likely to eliminate those new policies.  Seems to me that the consent decree is working - at least as it pertains to use of force policies - as we haven't seen reoccurrence of the national embarrassments which led to it in the first place. 
« Last Edit: April 21, 2017, 01:48:01 PM by Hts121 »
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Re: Cleveland: Crime & Safety Discussion
« Reply #5053 on: April 21, 2017, 01:46:58 PM »
Honestly, the CPD was shiite even before the consent decree.  The consent decree might actually be what they need to get their act together.

I wouldn't go that far.  They are indeed understaffed and the City itself poses many challenges which preclude effective order-maintenance policing.  Most of the worst neighborhood no longer have the density or design to allow for foot patrols.  There's no easy solution, consent decree or not. 
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Offline E Rocc

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Re: Cleveland: Crime & Safety Discussion
« Reply #5054 on: April 21, 2017, 02:29:18 PM »

I'm not sure it's fair to call CPD "lazy".   Loomis can support his argument about being understaffed with facts, and they are rather hamstrung by the "consent decree" and the current admin's overreaction to same.   I wouldn't be surprised to see one or more mayoral candidate(s) ask Sessions to vacate it.


Without speaking in generalities, how has the consent decree "hamstrung" the CPD?  If you are talking about the components aimed at reducing excessive use of force, the City had already put many of those practices in place before the consent decree was officially entered, and is not likely to eliminate those new policies.  Seems to me that the consent decree is working - at least as it pertains to use of force policies - as we haven't seen reoccurrence of the national embarrassments which led to it in the first place. 

The main one is the no-chase policy.   Perhaps no national embarrasments, but plenty of local ones as the suburban PDs do their work for them.
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Re: Cleveland: Crime & Safety Discussion
« Reply #5055 on: April 21, 2017, 02:30:45 PM »
There are very good reasons for no chase policies.  And I don't believe that CPD has a blanket no chase policy.

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Re: Cleveland: Crime & Safety Discussion
« Reply #5056 on: April 21, 2017, 02:31:33 PM »
Honestly, the CPD was shiite even before the consent decree.  The consent decree might actually be what they need to get their act together.

I wouldn't go that far.  They are indeed understaffed and the City itself poses many challenges which preclude effective order-maintenance policing.  Most of the worst neighborhood no longer have the density or design to allow for foot patrols.  There's no easy solution, consent decree or not. 

The "worst" neighborhoods, I would say, need car patrols.   Both because of protection, the things they can bring along, and so that mutual support can arrive quickly.

Foot patrols are good for downtown, though I'm a big believer in the value of horse patrols.
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Re: Cleveland: Crime & Safety Discussion
« Reply #5057 on: April 21, 2017, 02:33:20 PM »
Foot patrols and community policing have been shown to have positive effects on crime and community relations.

Offline E Rocc

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Re: Cleveland: Crime & Safety Discussion
« Reply #5058 on: April 21, 2017, 02:35:44 PM »
There are very good reasons for no chase policies.  And I don't believe that CPD has a blanket no chase policy.

Sure seems that way.   The only chase I know of during the last few months was the Amber Alert case the other day.  Meanwhile you have west suburban forces chasing perps all the way into East Cleveland.

Not that long ago, I was leaving for work and got to watch the entire Euclid PD chase a van into the back of the (Lakeshore) Dave's parking lot after they did a smash and grab over there.   CPD cars were not involved but were lurking around, sort of like hyenas watching lions.   If they care about their job, and most do, they had to be pist.

Especially since the same guys hit two places in Cleveland that night and could not be pursued.
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Online down4cle

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Re: Cleveland: Crime & Safety Discussion
« Reply #5059 on: April 21, 2017, 02:37:12 PM »
is a smash and grab worth putting the community in jeopardy for?

Offline BCCLE1

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Re: Cleveland: Crime & Safety Discussion
« Reply #5060 on: April 21, 2017, 02:45:49 PM »
is a smash and grab worth putting the community in jeopardy for?

Is allowing criminals to get away with a crime safe for the community?

Online down4cle

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Re: Cleveland: Crime & Safety Discussion
« Reply #5061 on: April 21, 2017, 02:46:37 PM »
^ Please don't answer a question with a question.

Offline BCCLE1

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Re: Cleveland: Crime & Safety Discussion
« Reply #5062 on: April 21, 2017, 02:59:53 PM »
^ Please don't answer a question with a question.

Get over it. It's just as relevant a question, maybe even more so then your guestion.

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Re: Cleveland: Crime & Safety Discussion
« Reply #5063 on: April 21, 2017, 03:02:08 PM »
It really isn't at all.  If you'd like to address my question, I will address yours.

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Re: Cleveland: Crime & Safety Discussion
« Reply #5064 on: April 21, 2017, 03:11:01 PM »
here's some evidence based information on police pursuits from the FBI:

https://leb.fbi.gov/2010/march/evidence-based-decisions-on-police-pursuits-the-officers-perspective

Offline David

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Re: Cleveland: Crime & Safety Discussion
« Reply #5065 on: April 21, 2017, 03:15:23 PM »
Honestly, the CPD was shiite even before the consent decree.  The consent decree might actually be what they need to get their act together.

I wouldn't go that far.  They are indeed understaffed and the City itself poses many challenges which preclude effective order-maintenance policing.  Most of the worst neighborhood no longer have the density or design to allow for foot patrols.  There's no easy solution, consent decree or not. 

The "worst" neighborhoods, I would say, need car patrols.   Both because of protection, the things they can bring along, and so that mutual support can arrive quickly.

Foot patrols are good for downtown, though I'm a big believer in the value of horse patrols.


I see far too many fat and out of shape police officers. Not in Cleveland but in general. Police are also lazy as hell and inattentive, ever since the invention of the smart phone.

CPD seems particularly lazy, to me. I think there should be mandatory bike and foot patrol in every neighborhood, to get them some exercise and force them to have to engage in their surroundings instead of just waiting to be dispatched. Like make them do 1 shift a week on foot or bike and rotate. On foot or bike, they might actually get a better sense of nearby suspicious activity. I know it's a dangerous job and their safety is important too, but they signed up for it. They could patrol in pairs on foot or bike if safety is such an issue.

A former coworker of mine had a second job as a part time Cleveland PD officer. She got paid $22 an hour to sit in her parked cruiser and swipe through her Facebook newsfeed all night. Such a waste of taxpayer money.

I've never heard about this issue being addressed, where cops are always playing on their phones in their car while they're supposed to be patrolling. I see it all the time. Hell, when Homeland Security was here for the RNC, they were doing the same thing, at the rapid stations they were patrolling. A giant group of federal marshals literally huddled in a circle and staring down at their phones. It looks unprofessional and it's sort of insulting when you see that and know your taxes are paying their salary and that of their supervisors who clearly don't care either.

There's so many jobs out there where you're not allowed to play on your phone during your shift. You'd think Active Duty Police Officer would be one of those jobs...
« Last Edit: April 21, 2017, 03:33:49 PM by David »
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Offline seicer

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Re: Cleveland: Crime & Safety Discussion
« Reply #5066 on: April 21, 2017, 03:29:55 PM »
Yes, smash and grabs can and should be pursued. It's a quality of life issue which can drag an entire neighborhood down, and one that lately has become quite violent. There is a reason many businesses now post concrete bollards outside of their building. To top it off, the city is facing violent takeover-style bank robberies which are the most dangerous robberies that one can face. Should we just let them go since no one is technically getting hurt?

Look at the ATM smash-and-grab examples. The perps that was doing the vast majority earlier in the year and last year were stealing vans off of the street and from used car lots (potentially injuring or maiming individuals). They were then ramming them into buildings, potentially injuring innocent bystanders. It was all traced to a notorious gang and when that was busted, a significant number of people went to jail. Did anyone die? No. But it was escalating quickly.
« Last Edit: April 21, 2017, 03:31:31 PM by seicer »

Offline E Rocc

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Re: Cleveland: Crime & Safety Discussion
« Reply #5067 on: April 21, 2017, 03:33:40 PM »
is a smash and grab worth putting the community in jeopardy for?

Is a bank robbery?
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Re: Cleveland: Crime & Safety Discussion
« Reply #5068 on: April 21, 2017, 03:35:55 PM »
Is jay walking?

See I can play this game too.

Offline E Rocc

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Re: Cleveland: Crime & Safety Discussion
« Reply #5069 on: April 21, 2017, 03:36:15 PM »
Yes, smash and grabs can and should be pursued. It's a quality of life issue which can drag an entire neighborhood down, and one that lately has become quite violent. There is a reason many businesses now post concrete bollards outside of their building. To top it off, the city is facing violent takeover-style bank robberies which are the most dangerous robberies that one can face. Should we just let them go since no one is technically getting hurt?

Look at the ATM smash-and-grab examples. The perps that was doing the vast majority earlier in the year and last year were stealing vans off of the street and from used car lots (potentially injuring or maiming individuals). They were then ramming them into buildings, potentially injuring innocent bystanders. It was all traced to a notorious gang and when that was busted, a significant number of people went to jail. Did anyone die? No. But it was escalating quickly.

If I had read this first it would have saved me a post.

Most Walgreens have a Huntington ATM inside.   Not the one by me.

In addition, if one city makes it a lot easier to get away than another, where do more crimes happen?
« Last Edit: April 21, 2017, 03:40:36 PM by E Rocc »
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Offline E Rocc

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Re: Cleveland: Crime & Safety Discussion
« Reply #5070 on: April 21, 2017, 03:37:23 PM »
Is jay walking?

See I can play this game too.

There's a line for sure, I was irked to say the least when Maple Heights PD chased a guy down my street for housing code stuff.

I would say "felony" makes a good line.
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Re: Cleveland: Crime & Safety Discussion
« Reply #5071 on: April 21, 2017, 03:38:53 PM »
but if that line is moved somewhere else, why would that be ham stringing the dept.  what if the depts used evidence based guidance and trained their officers that way.  This is what Jefferson Beuregard Sessions III is against.

Offline David

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Re: Cleveland: Crime & Safety Discussion
« Reply #5072 on: April 21, 2017, 03:41:43 PM »
I have to agree. Looking at the big picture, it would overall be better for the community if those were pursued. You're going to end up with a lot of criminals who are aware that they can get away with what they're doing. They'll continue doing it and more criminals will be incentivized to start committing these crimes.
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Re: Cleveland: Crime & Safety Discussion
« Reply #5073 on: April 21, 2017, 03:42:47 PM »
^ research does not bear that out.  The FBI disagrees.

Offline StrapHanger

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Re: Cleveland: Crime & Safety Discussion
« Reply #5074 on: April 21, 2017, 03:51:46 PM »
I have to agree. Looking at the big picture, it would overall be better for the community if those were pursued. You're going to end up with a lot of criminals who are aware that they can get away with what they're doing. They'll continue doing it and more criminals will be incentivized to start committing these crimes.


This is reasonable, but there's a real empirical question out there about the point at which the value of the marginal likelihood of apprehension via hot pursuit vs later investigation and the ostensible deterrence effect of visible pursuits exceed the costs of high speed chases. This is a tough one to answer from mere intuition. There are very real costs to high speed chases. Thousands of dead bystanders over the decades and tens of thousands of injuries.
"Cleveland, as you see, is not an apple, but a bunch of grapes each of which has its own particular pattern-some large, others small, some round, others long and narrow, some sweet, others sour, some sound, others rotten throughout."  -Howard Whipple Green, 1932

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