Author Topic: Cleveland: Lakefront Development and News  (Read 498216 times)

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Offline mrnyc

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Re: Cleveland: Lakefront Development News
« Reply #70 on: September 09, 2007, 11:12:04 AM »
good choice for the ped bridge. its no calatrava, but it looks like they do nice work.
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Offline j73

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Re: Cleveland: Lakefront Development News
« Reply #71 on: September 11, 2007, 07:48:38 PM »
BTW, the guy who talks on WCPN every Friday about business and development in Cleveland (Scott Rolston from Fairport Asset Mgmt, IIRC) mentioned last Friday that he thinks we'll see a study about the future of Burke from the Jackson admin in the next few weeks.  Not sure how well-connected the guy is and what the study is, but interesting, if true.  Here's the link - the comment is in the last 1/3 of it. 
http://www.wcpn.org/index.php/WCPN/Player/7335/

Offline Avogadro

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Re: Cleveland: Lakefront Development News
« Reply #72 on: September 12, 2007, 06:53:13 AM »
That's right.  The City has been fast-tracking the BKL Master Plan.  Work was announced last month, and the consultants wanted to have the first phase completed by October 1.

http://www.airportsites.net/MasterPlans/BKL-MP-Update/index.htm
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Re: Cleveland: Lakefront Development News
« Reply #73 on: September 12, 2007, 09:06:10 AM »
I'm not sure how to interpret this. The Master Plan function is to:

To provide a framework for long-range planning (2030)
To graphically present preferred airport development concepts
To define the purpose and need for development projects
To comply with all applicable FAA requirements
To enable the airport to achieve its mission
To assure compatible land use development
To support the financial health of one of a City’s most powerful economic engines
To identify facility requirements for all airport users


Depending on what "airport development concepts" really means, the document sounds like a blueprint for Burke's expansion more than anything else.  Anyhow, it doesn't sound too positive for those who want to open up that prime real estate for more appropriate, waterfront residential/retail/recreational usage.


Offline 3231

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Re: Cleveland: Lakefront Development News
« Reply #74 on: September 12, 2007, 09:20:38 AM »
BTW, the guy who talks on WCPN every Friday about business and development in Cleveland (Scott Rolston from Fairport Asset Mgmt, IIRC) mentioned last Friday that he thinks we'll see a study about the future of Burke from the Jackson admin in the next few weeks.  Not sure how well-connected the guy is and what the study is, but interesting, if true.  Here's the link - the comment is in the last 1/3 of it. 
http://www.wcpn.org/index.php/WCPN/Player/7335/

I heard that as well.  I didn't know how to take it. Did the guy know something or was he just thinking out loud? If he's just speculating without some insider knowledge, then its rather inappropriate to do so this way.

Offline novusordo0205

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Re: Cleveland: Lakefront Development News
« Reply #75 on: September 12, 2007, 10:11:05 AM »
It may have been crass, but I enjoyed how Mayor Daley solved Chicago's lakefront airport problem literally overnight by carving impenetrable Xs on the runways so that Meigs Field could no longer be used.  Mayor Jackson certainly will not pull a similar move, so it looks like we'll be stuck with an airport.

Offline math

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Re: Cleveland: Lakefront Development News
« Reply #76 on: September 12, 2007, 10:15:56 AM »
it could be that, in light of the roadblocks to tearing bkl out, the development angle is the only other option.  they were, if I remember correctly, talking about putting something commercial into that area.  restaurants etc.  if the roadblock is that serious, then why not consider making the terminal an accessible, useable part of the area? 

Offline Matches

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Re: Cleveland: Lakefront Development News
« Reply #77 on: September 12, 2007, 11:19:19 AM »
That bullet list is not specific to Burke.  The site says:

"The general goals and objectives addressed by an airport master plan include the following:" (emphasis added)

And then they have the list.  We'll have to wait and see what comes out of it.
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Offline Matches

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Re: Cleveland: Lakefront Development News
« Reply #78 on: September 19, 2007, 10:43:19 AM »
Moving this to better location.  From the Cleveland.com "blog", entry titled "Burke to remain open; development talks under way"
http://www.urbanohio.com/forum2/index.php?topic=9545.msg220813#msg220813
« Last Edit: September 19, 2007, 10:47:29 AM by Matches »
"The urban core is a net importer of young adults and a net exporter of old adults. That's the antithesis of a dying city."

Offline gotribe

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Re: Cleveland: Lakefront Development News
« Reply #79 on: September 19, 2007, 10:51:39 AM »
I guess I am fine with this Burke news being that there is still so much developable land in the core of the city.  I would hate to see Burke completely loaded with residential/commercial in basically an island area therefore putting a squeeze on future development downtown.  I would be fine with a park there or something of the type.  However, having a corporate/regional airport downtown is a plus for the region. 

Offline w28th

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Re: Cleveland: Lakefront Development News
« Reply #80 on: September 19, 2007, 02:23:36 PM »
Even though it's a visual wasteland, I agree.  But it would be advantageous to get some sort of public access to the Lake on its northern edges. 
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Offline gotribe

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Re: Cleveland: Lakefront Development News
« Reply #81 on: September 19, 2007, 02:41:11 PM »
Creating a residential/commercial mecca at Burke is basically like building Crocker park.  You couldn't walk to it obviously (I-90 kind of in the way).  Therefore, before we start thinking about redeveloping Burke, lets reconfigure the shoreway to open it up to pedestrian activity. 

Offline jonmoxon

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Re: Cleveland: Lakefront Development News
« Reply #82 on: September 19, 2007, 06:33:16 PM »
Burke should become a state-of-the-art full intermodal transportation hub incorporating the airport, the port of Cleveland's relocation (with rail access and container handling capability), along with the proposed ferry terminal for vessels to Canada. There would be nothing like it anywhere and the port's relocation clears the lakefont west of CBS for Pesht.
    This also isn't taking into account the potential lakefront passenger rail station for the Ohio Hub plan.
    Any and all commercial development that is being talked about for Burke should be steered downtown. I've heard there's lots available? :roll:
  It is this kind of short-sightedness in planning by Cleveland politicos that makes me scratch my head. These people just can't seem to grasp the whole "density" thing.
It can't be this simple, can it? Or am I just out there?! :?

Offline Florida Guy

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Re: Cleveland: Lakefront Development News
« Reply #83 on: September 19, 2007, 06:49:03 PM »
^ $$$

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Re: Cleveland: Lakefront Development News
« Reply #84 on: September 19, 2007, 08:10:08 PM »
Burke should become a state-of-the-art full intermodal transportation hub incorporating the airport, the port of Cleveland's relocation (with rail access and container handling capability), along with the proposed ferry terminal for vessels to Canada. There would be nothing like it anywhere and the port's relocation clears the lakefont west of CBS for Pesht.
    This also isn't taking into account the potential lakefront passenger rail station for the Ohio Hub plan.
    Any and all commercial development that is being talked about for Burke should be steered downtown. I've heard there's lots available? :roll:
  It is this kind of short-sightedness in planning by Cleveland politicos that makes me scratch my head. These people just can't seem to grasp the whole "density" thing.
It can't be this simple, can it? Or am I just out there?! :?

I like your idea, but why attack those who are actually out there doing this thing with a non-sequiter like that?  Just because some people think Burke would be a prime development opportunity doesn't make them short sighted or mean that they don't "grasp the whole 'density' thing".  Where are you getting that?

Offline KJP

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Re: Cleveland: Lakefront Development News
« Reply #85 on: September 19, 2007, 09:42:09 PM »
Actually, it was my idea (http://www.urbanohio.com/forum2/index.php?topic=9545.msg188153#msg188153). But I think we need to find out whether the mayor's plan will block the creation of a super-intermodal hub.
« Last Edit: September 19, 2007, 09:45:07 PM by KJP »
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Offline musky

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Re: Cleveland: Lakefront Development News
« Reply #86 on: September 19, 2007, 10:10:53 PM »
Actually it was my idea and I have the site plans, renderings and CAD files to prove it - plus the grade I received for it too (plus two other students). It includes the ferry, Amtrack relocation, greyhound relocation, incorporating Ohio Hub and Cleveland/Lorain Rail, residential, commercial and retail development and a few other things. I even proposed it to the city.

I've been meaning to post it since last spring but forgot. Maybe now is the time. I try to get to it tomorrow and post it on the Burke thread.

Online X

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Re: Cleveland: Lakefront Development News
« Reply #87 on: September 19, 2007, 10:19:37 PM »
Actually it was my idea originally.  I have plans sketched out on a cocktail napkin, which I have since wadded up in a little ball for safekeeping.  If I find it, it shall be unfurled and posted and the issue settled once and for all!  My silly putty and toothpick model is, alas, no more.

Offline KJP

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Re: Cleveland: Lakefront Development News
« Reply #88 on: September 20, 2007, 12:34:49 PM »
How could it be your idea when you can't even spell Amtrak correctly!?!?  :-o

Actually, I think I came up with the idea when I was playing with my mashed potatoes in 1977. I called it Close Encounters of the Erie Kind.
« Last Edit: September 20, 2007, 12:35:18 PM by KJP »
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Offline MayDay

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Re: Cleveland: Lakefront Development News
« Reply #89 on: September 20, 2007, 12:37:53 PM »
Off-topic, but to this day whenever I go home for the holidays and mashed potatoes are being served - my dad sculpts a "Devil's Tower" out of them.

Offline musky

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Re: Cleveland: Lakefront Development News
« Reply #90 on: September 20, 2007, 12:42:01 PM »
How could it be your idea when you can't even spell Amtrak correctly!?!?  :-o


I'm a thinker, not a speller.

Offline gotribe

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Re: Cleveland: Lakefront Development News
« Reply #91 on: September 20, 2007, 01:05:26 PM »
...and this is why they invented SimCity people.  Go build your favorite lakeshore.

Offline Edsiou

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Re: Cleveland: Lakefront Development News
« Reply #92 on: September 20, 2007, 01:32:29 PM »
It may have been crass, but I enjoyed how Mayor Daley solved Chicago's lakefront airport problem literally overnight by carving impenetrable Xs on the runways so that Meigs Field could no longer be used.  Mayor Jackson certainly will not pull a similar move, so it looks like we'll be stuck with an airport.

I heard Chicago is still paying for that big X

Offline 3231

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Re: Cleveland: Lakefront Development News
« Reply #93 on: September 20, 2007, 01:41:04 PM »
I heard Chicago is still paying for that big X

Oh, whereever will poor poor Chicago ever come up with the funds??

Offline Edsiou

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Re: Cleveland: Lakefront Development News
« Reply #94 on: September 20, 2007, 01:47:35 PM »
I heard Chicago is still paying for that big X

Oh, whereever will poor poor Chicago ever come up with the funds??


  They are having trouble in the expansion plans for midway airport. FAA is getting them back for the X.

Offline 3231

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Re: Cleveland: Lakefront Development News
« Reply #95 on: September 20, 2007, 01:49:02 PM »
^I can imagine that it would be quite difficult to expand Midway.  That place is surrounded by dense neighborhoods on all sides.

Offline Edsiou

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Re: Cleveland: Lakefront Development News
« Reply #96 on: September 20, 2007, 01:57:25 PM »
^I can imagine that it would be quite difficult to expand Midway.  That place is surrounded by dense neighborhoods on all sides.


   That there problem,not ours,we have capacity for continetal to expand,so we must keep burke.

Would love to see charters leave burke like in the early eighties.

Offline jonmoxon

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Re: Cleveland: Lakefront Development News
« Reply #97 on: September 20, 2007, 03:28:40 PM »
Burke should become a state-of-the-art full intermodal transportation hub incorporating the airport, the port of Cleveland's relocation (with rail access and container handling capability), along with the proposed ferry terminal for vessels to Canada. There would be nothing like it anywhere and the port's relocation clears the lakefont west of CBS for Pesht.
    This also isn't taking into account the potential lakefront passenger rail station for the Ohio Hub plan.
    Any and all commercial development that is being talked about for Burke should be steered downtown. I've heard there's lots available? :roll:
  It is this kind of short-sightedness in planning by Cleveland politicos that makes me scratch my head. These people just can't seem to grasp the whole "density" thing.
It can't be this simple, can it? Or am I just out there?! :?

I like your idea, but why attack those who are actually out there doing this thing with a non-sequiter like that?  Just because some people think Burke would be a prime development opportunity doesn't make them short sighted or mean that they don't "grasp the whole 'density' thing".  Where are you getting that?

Ok, first off I'm going to apologize for hacking into y'all's computers and stealing this idea and passing it off as my own. :roll:
       But seriously, I've heard a member of the port authority board say firsthand that the above scenario is on their agenda and in the works. They (the PA) are very interested in moving their operations to land north and east of the aircraft operations. He also said that Cleveland is the frontrunner location for a ferry terminal (according to their Canadian counterparts). I've posted this info before. The port has been in the PD and Crain's discussing the possiblity of adding container freight to their operations. That would play right into the PA's potential move to Burke (flat, open space for container staging; highway access, rail access). A potential Amtrak/OhioHub lakefront station (KJP) would just add to the synergy of this site. This intermodal scenario isn't some pipe dream.
        X, What I was getting at was this: With all the vacant lots/property downtown and midtown why would the city look to develop commercial space adjacent to Burke? I could see this if a business came to the city and specifically wanted to be next to the airport...that's cool. In my view, anything developed on the fringes of Burke is cut off from downtown by the shoreway and could take space away from the transportation-oriented development that could and should be centered on that land. The open land along the lakefront, including Burke, shouldn't be developed just because it can.
        Let's examine the Rock Hall. It was a great addition to the city. It's a striking building, and it looks great in photos. It draws many thousands of out-of-towners to our city. It's great for marketing the city. But can anyone tell me why it's right on the water? What's near it? What development has it spun off down there? It's cut off from downtown by the shoreway and the RR tracks. Good luck walking down E9 to it in the winter/spring. My point is that just because it's a great idea or a good addition to the city doesn't mean it has to go down on the lakefront. It should have been built near TC or on Euclid ave in one of the many vacant bldgs. No city should be so desperate for development that it just lets anything be built anywhere, highest and best use be damned. We let that happen with the new Browns Stadium, but that's in another thread.
        X, I want the city to focus on developing the vacant land downtown before we start looking to develop the land around Burke. Keep building up the density and connectivity and synergy and all that crap downtown. Burke should be off-limits to anything but transport-oriented development.
      That's my position and I'm stickin to it. :-D
   

Offline Boreas

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Re: Cleveland: Lakefront Development News
« Reply #98 on: September 20, 2007, 04:12:40 PM »
This morning on Cleveland Public Radio, they said that closing Burke Lakefront Airport would shift more air traffic to Cleveland Hopkins and require about $1 Billion in upgrades to Hopkins.  ("they said"--sorry about the unreferenced quote)

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Re: Cleveland: Lakefront Development News
« Reply #99 on: September 20, 2007, 10:47:31 PM »
That's fine that your position is that development should be focused on lots within the existing boundaries of Downtown.  Just keep in mind that reasonable people might consider the possibility of opening up additional Lakefront land for residential and commercial development, which could easily be done as a TOD, mind you, to be a good thing.

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Re: Cleveland: Lakefront Development News
« Reply #100 on: September 20, 2007, 11:07:25 PM »
I'm still waiting to see what strucures if any the FAA will allow to be built at/near Burke. Remember the original Lakefront Plan took these restrictions into account, and the best they could come up with was a golf couse.

In any regard, it bothers me to think of all that wasted space with the ugly undeveloped bluffs and the shoreway. Imagine if we could somehow bridge the shoreway and the urban grid could just extend north of the bluffs and cascade down to the water...,iimagine all of that potential. We may not see it realized in our lifetime and that pisses me off.

Offline jonmoxon

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Re: Cleveland: Lakefront Development News
« Reply #101 on: September 20, 2007, 11:35:15 PM »
That's fine that your position is that development should be focused on lots within the existing boundaries of Downtown.  Just keep in mind that reasonable people might consider the possibility of opening up additional Lakefront land for residential and commercial development, which could easily be done as a TOD, mind you, to be a good thing.

Yes X, the "additional land" I would open up for development would be the existing Port Authority land west of the stadium once the PA relocates to Burke. Let Pesht encompass this land and fully bring it to it's potential. Don't build on the fringes of Burke right now just because you can. Resist the urge. Hold out and let the better plan happen. Why build a couple of bldgs around Burke that are disconnected from the rest of the city when they probably could've been located somewhere else? Do you have a compelling reason to locate businesses down there? Lets take a deep breath and look at the big picture. Let's leave that land available for development that makes sense next to an airport.
I'm still waiting to see what strucures if any the FAA will allow to be built at/near Burke. Remember the original Lakefront Plan took these restrictions into account, and the best they could come up with was a golf couse.

In any regard, it bothers me to think of all that wasted space with the ugly undeveloped bluffs and the shoreway. Imagine if we could somehow bridge the shoreway and the urban grid could just extend north of the bluffs and cascade down to the water...,iimagine all of that potential. We may not see it realized in our lifetime and that pisses me off.

^Yes, surfohio, please see the thread on Bob Stark's proposed development in the warehouse district that would stretch all the way to the lakefront west of Browns Stadium, "Pesht". Burke has absolutely no chance of ever being residential (soil contamination) or a part of the downtown street grid.

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Re: Cleveland: Lakefront Development News
« Reply #102 on: September 21, 2007, 12:55:23 AM »
You've done the studies, I presume?

Offline StrapHanger

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Re: Cleveland: Lakefront Development News
« Reply #103 on: September 21, 2007, 12:49:10 PM »
^I think the PD reported on significant soil contamination in an article some time ago.  Nothing's impossible (look at Fairport Harbor), but I'd think it pretty pricey to mitigate.  Isn't all that land muck dredged up from the Cuyahoga?

Intermodal freight might be great northeast of Burke, but not sure I understand/agree that passenger rail should be anywhere other than the mall (or even better, Tower City).
"Cleveland, as you see, is not an apple, but a bunch of grapes each of which has its own particular pattern-some large, others small, some round, others long and narrow, some sweet, others sour, some sound, others rotten throughout."  -Howard Whipple Green, 1932

Offline Boreas

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Re: Cleveland: Lakefront Development News
« Reply #104 on: September 21, 2007, 02:23:14 PM »
Intermodal freight might be great northeast of Burke, but not sure I understand/agree that passenger rail should be anywhere other than the mall (or even better, Tower City).
And how to get the rail-freight north of the East Shoreway...?  Maybe when they make the shoreway into a boulevard, they could make put the Shoreway bridge over the tracks to Burke-Intermodal. 

I think that "somebody here" said that the passenger rail tracks into Terminal Tower have already been blocked by a building. 

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