Author Topic: Cleveland: Lakefront Development and News  (Read 498343 times)

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Offline KJP

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Re: Cleveland: Lakefront Development News
« Reply #105 on: September 21, 2007, 02:27:17 PM »
It's possible to build a rail access over the Shoreway -- from two separate rail lines. I'll draw ya a map sometime.

And while the Federal Courthouse Tower blocks railroad access to Tower City Center from the west, it doesn't block it from the east. Nor does it block a certain type of rail vehicle from using the existing RTA tracks coming from the west. Kinda complicated. I discuss it in the Cleveland-Lorain Commuter Rail thread.
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Offline Boreas

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Re: Cleveland: Lakefront Development News
« Reply #106 on: September 21, 2007, 02:34:23 PM »
^ Whoot Whooo!  Two whistle blasts

Offline musky

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Re: Cleveland: Lakefront Development News
« Reply #107 on: September 24, 2007, 02:29:35 PM »
Actually it was my idea and I have the site plans, renderings and CAD files to prove it - plus the grade I received for it too (plus two other students). It includes the ferry, Amtrack relocation, greyhound relocation, incorporating Ohio Hub and Cleveland/Lorain Rail, residential, commercial and retail development and a few other things. I even proposed it to the city.

I've been meaning to post it since last spring but forgot. Maybe now is the time. I try to get to it tomorrow and post it on the Burke thread.


Here you go:
http://www.urbanohio.com/forum2/index.php?topic=14198.msg222133#msg222133

Because there are so many images, i created its own thread.
« Last Edit: September 24, 2007, 02:30:30 PM by musky »

Offline musky

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Re: Cleveland: Lakefront Development News
« Reply #108 on: October 18, 2007, 12:36:03 PM »
At Design Review today and Planning Commission tomomorrow:

Quote
1.   DRC 07-115:   1111 Lakeside Avenue, Holiday Inn, Remodeling (Erieview II URP/Ward 13) [Submitted 10/9/07]


APPROVAL BEING SOUGHT:  Final approval of exterior modifications as listed below.

PROJECT DESCRIPTION: The proposed work includes:

•   Repainting of exterior surfaces of the building.  Color Scheme:
•   Main body of hotel: SW6106 – Kilim Beige
•   Penthouse level and parking garage: SW6107 – Nomadic Desert (slightly deeper beige than Kilim Beige)
•   Cornice and trim: SW7103 – Whitetail (warm white)

•   Construction of a new glass-roofed entrance canopy at the main hotel entrance (approximately 40’-0” wide by 12’-0” deep) suspended from a new structural steel “mast” attached to the building.  A vertical frame-stretched exterior-grade fabric panel will be built adjacent to the mast, providing some wind-buffering for guests at the garage elevator lobbies and compositional support for the vertical mast.

•   Construction of a cornice element at the top of the hotel tower.  The cornice will project 7’-0” from the building and will extend 5’-0” above the existing parapet walls.  A frieze-line moulding will be added at the floorline level of the penthouse to complete the proportional composition of the cornice.

•   Installation of 10 frame-stretched exterior-grade burgundy-colored fabric panels on the East Elevation of the building.  The banners will project 8’-0” and will extend from the top of the first floor to the top of the fourth floor.

•   Installation of a course of burgundy-colored horizontal fabric panels above the first-floor windows on the East and South Elevations, and extending the length of the South Elevation (facing Lakeside Avenue).  The panels will be 4’-6” high and will cant slightly outward at the top.  These panels will be illuminated from behind.

•   Installation of a semi-translucent fabric mesh screening panel across the second and part of the third stories of the East Elevation of the parking garage (above the garage entry).  The panel will be approximately 115’-0” wide and 14’-0” tall and will replace a metal screen panel currently on the face of the garage at this location.

Major exterior signage will remain in existing locations, and existing landscaping and hardscaping will be maintained and repaired.

STAFF RECOMMENDATION:
It is reasonable that the property owner wish to “enliven” the façade and “update” the appearance of the building, and it is the opinion of staff that the addition of the new canopy and the banners, in addition to some creative exterior lighting treatments, is one way to achieve this goal; however, the addition of the cornice to a building that was never designed to have one is not appropriate.  The Secretary of the Interior’s Standards for Rehabilitation dictate that “Changes that create a false sense of historical development, such as adding conjectural features or elements from other historical properties, will not be undertaken”.  Furthermore, the addition of this postmodern “decorative” element makes the building out of character with the adjacent buildings that were constructed as part of the Erieview redevelopment plan.

Staff recommends approval of the proposed remodeling with regard to the entry canopy, fabric panels, mesh screening panel and paint scheme, subject to the elimination of the cornice element in favor of a treatment that is more appropriate to the style of the building.



Offline smackem81

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Re: Cleveland: Lakefront Development News
« Reply #109 on: October 18, 2007, 04:40:32 PM »
"Changes that create a false sense of historical development, such as adding conjectural features or elements from other historical properties, will not be undertaken”.  Furthermore, the addition of this postmodern “decorative” element makes the building out of character with the adjacent buildings that were constructed as part of the Erieview redevelopment plan"

And they should care why? What about modern buildings created to look like old buildings? What about all those buildings that got terrible new skins on them? Why does it matter if the building matches surrounding buildings?

Offline surfohio

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Re: Cleveland: Lakefront Development News
« Reply #110 on: October 19, 2007, 08:59:54 AM »
It still floors me that there are no windows directly facing the water!!!!

Offline w28th

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Re: Cleveland: Lakefront Development News
« Reply #111 on: October 19, 2007, 09:31:00 AM »
STAFF RECOMMENDATION:
It is reasonable that the property owner wish to “enliven” the façade and “update” the appearance of the building, and it is the opinion of staff that the addition of the new canopy and the banners, in addition to some creative exterior lighting treatments, is one way to achieve this goal; however, the addition of the cornice to a building that was never designed to have one is not appropriate.  The Secretary of the Interior’s Standards for Rehabilitation dictate that “Changes that create a false sense of historical development, such as adding conjectural features or elements from other historical properties, will not be undertaken”.  Furthermore, the addition of this postmodern “decorative” element makes the building out of character with the adjacent buildings that were constructed as part of the Erieview redevelopment plan.


Thank God.  This statement should be spread far and wide to rid us of this pasted on garbage. 
Interesting statement from a prominent urbanist:
Many believe architecture should reflect the historical "and should have a minimal sense of belonging to an identity, so it is a completely conterproductive and reactionary idea and also part of this nostalgia.  It would be really interesting to locate that moment when nostalgia started to become the dominant mode.  And when would you locate it?  Postmodernism."

Postmodernism is a movement of people afraid or unthoughtful enough to progress into and accept the future.
End rant.
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Offline Avogadro

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Re: Cleveland: Lakefront Development News
« Reply #112 on: October 19, 2007, 10:03:55 AM »
Postmodernism is a movement of people afraid or unthoughtful enough to progress into and accept the future.

Is that from the quoted "prominent urbanist", or from you?  That's some fairly nasty language.

Granted, I agree with the staff recommendation, but at least it isn't bilious.
« Last Edit: October 19, 2007, 10:05:23 AM by Avogadro »
Christopher Alvarado, Slavic Village Development

Offline w28th

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Re: Cleveland: Lakefront Development News
« Reply #113 on: October 19, 2007, 12:14:46 PM »
It was Rem Koolhaas.  I would hardly consider quoting myself, thanks for asking though.
"When you stand at the corner of Euclid Avenue and East Ninth Street in Cleveland, you stand at one of the busiest corners in the world -- and in the heart of a shopping district known far and wide for its many fine shops."

Offline X

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Re: Cleveland: Lakefront Development News
« Reply #114 on: October 19, 2007, 12:28:33 PM »
I'd hardly consider Rem Koolhaas an urbanist.  His architecture generally falls into the stand alone "f.u. urban environment, I am a product of singular genius, so stand back and marvel at my magnificence" school of architecture.

Offline musky

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Re: Cleveland: Lakefront Development News
« Reply #115 on: October 19, 2007, 12:31:10 PM »
^You said what I was thinking.
Thanks

Offline w28th

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Re: Cleveland: Lakefront Development News
« Reply #116 on: October 19, 2007, 12:35:42 PM »
If it makes x and muski feel better, I'll edit it to say architect.  You're welcome.
"When you stand at the corner of Euclid Avenue and East Ninth Street in Cleveland, you stand at one of the busiest corners in the world -- and in the heart of a shopping district known far and wide for its many fine shops."

Offline X

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Re: Cleveland: Lakefront Development News
« Reply #117 on: October 19, 2007, 01:01:51 PM »
It will make your post more accurate.  Thanks.

Offline musky

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Re: Cleveland: Lakefront Development News
« Reply #118 on: October 19, 2007, 01:03:45 PM »
Who's muski?

Offline Avogadro

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Re: Cleveland: Lakefront Development News
« Reply #119 on: October 19, 2007, 01:34:31 PM »
Who's muski?

*sniffs*

Evidently, I am.
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Offline Florida Guy

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Re: Cleveland: Lakefront Development News
« Reply #120 on: October 19, 2007, 01:43:23 PM »
No he's talking about MUSKY. Oh I'm slow, I got it. :-)
« Last Edit: October 19, 2007, 01:44:11 PM by Florida Guy »

Offline jpop

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Re: Cleveland: Lakefront Development News
« Reply #121 on: October 20, 2007, 11:03:19 AM »
Honestly, that's one of the ugliest hotels I know of. With or without the cornice and banners.

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Re: Cleveland: Lakefront Development News
« Reply #122 on: October 20, 2007, 11:56:50 AM »
^Cannot say that I disagree but it was pretty much the standard Holiday Inn high rise design when it was built in the early 70's and you see them across the country.

Offline musky

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Re: Cleveland: Lakefront Development News
« Reply #123 on: October 20, 2007, 10:35:45 PM »
One only needs to look at Viking Hall ay CSU. It used to be a Holiday Inn. It looks pretty much the same as the HI Lakeside.

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Re: Cleveland: Lakefront Development News
« Reply #124 on: October 21, 2007, 02:23:53 PM »
Yeah. It's unfortunate that Holiday Inn has such low standards on all of their buildings. Oh, well. What can you do?

Slap a cornice on and some red banners, I guess.

Offline MyTwoSense

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Re: Cleveland: Lakefront Development News
« Reply #125 on: October 21, 2007, 02:25:55 PM »
Yeah. It's unfortunate that Holiday Inn has such low standards on all of their buildings. Oh, well. What can you do?

Slap a cornice on and some red banners, I guess.

It's a brand thing, and fault shouldn't be placed on Cleveland's shoulders.  I've been to some cities where the Holiday Inn looks like its stuck in 1967.  I have to say our Holiday Inn and Holiday Inn Express are VERY nice compared to most cities.
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Offline jpop

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Re: Cleveland: Lakefront Development News
« Reply #126 on: October 21, 2007, 02:27:02 PM »
Doesn't Cleveland have design standards? I'm not asking this to pick a fight. Okay, maybe I am. But I'm genuinely ignorant on that one.

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Re: Cleveland: Lakefront Development News
« Reply #127 on: October 21, 2007, 02:37:49 PM »
Doesn't Cleveland have design standards? I'm not asking this to pick a fight. Okay, maybe I am. But I'm genuinely ignorant on that one.

Yes, its a two sided situation.  The brand has a "price point" to operate within.  They provided design standards within Cleveland's standards.

Also, Look at this from Intercontinental Hotel Groups point of view.  If they add or go above market to "improve" or "maintain" a particular property in an tight market where they have to fight hard for market share, (Downtown Cleveland is filled with a lot of mid-level hotels) do you "over improve" and raise the price of the room and risk losing customers for exterior aesthetics?

Most travelers are concerned with interior comfort.  Clean hotel, Rooms, Bathrooms, lobby and services offered (free wifi, etc.) than what the property looks like on the exterior.

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Re: Cleveland: Lakefront Development News
« Reply #128 on: October 21, 2007, 02:47:59 PM »
Yeah. And I understand your point. I guess that I just get frustrated when I see mediocre design because it lowers the appeal of the building/brand or whatever is represented inside. At least it does for me. When I see a building with mediocre design immediately I think, "Oh, well they're probably not very good because that building does nothing to attract me to it." But maybe that's just because I'm a designer. Maybe it's because I'm a perfectionist and I'm hard on myself, and I project that onto other things. Maybe I should stop psychoanalyzing myself. I dunno.

But that's the reason that I hate mediocre design. Because for me, if a city is represented by bad design in whatever form, it, in my opinion, represents the city poorly as a whole and gives people a bad image. If a city wants to attract people with a higher class palate, they need to step up their design standards across the board and demand better. But that's just me, I guess.

If people want to forego those standards in the name of getting development done, then there's a trade-off. But it's not the kind of trade-off I want. But again, that's just me.

Offline MyTwoSense

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Re: Cleveland: Lakefront Development News
« Reply #129 on: October 21, 2007, 02:56:29 PM »
Yeah. And I understand your point. I guess that I just get frustrated when I see mediocre design because it lowers the appeal of the building/brand or whatever is represented inside. At least it does for me. When I see a building with mediocre design immediately I think, "Oh, well they're probably not very good because that building does nothing to attract me to it." But maybe that's just because I'm a designer. Maybe it's because I'm a perfectionist and I'm hard on myself, and I project that onto other things. Maybe I should stop psychoanalyzing myself. I dunno.

But that's the reason that I hate mediocre design. Because for me, if a city is represented by bad design in whatever form, it, in my opinion, represents the city poorly as a whole and gives people a bad image. If a city wants to attract people with a higher class palate, they need to step up their design standards across the board and demand better. But that's just me, I guess.

If people want to forego those standards in the name of getting development done, then there's a trade-off. But it's not the kind of trade-off I want. But again, that's just me.

We'll since you've only seen a rendering, don't get your pressure up.  There are many times a rendering is presented, and it looks suspect, and the final product looks better than anticipated.
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Offline MuRrAy HiLL

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Re: Cleveland: Lakefront Development News
« Reply #130 on: December 11, 2007, 10:09:57 PM »
Well, we're at least talking about progress now.  Looks to be an extremely long progress unfortunitely.

http://blog.cleveland.com/metro/2007/12/port_recommends_move_from_down.html

Port recommends move from downtown to north of E. 55th
Posted by Tom Breckenridge
December 11, 2007 19:06PM


Top port officials recommend that the port relocate to a man-made peninsula north of the East 55th Street lakefront.

Members of the Cleveland-Cuyahoga County Port Authority's maritime committee voted unanimously Tuesday to recommend the relocation, from the port's 80-acre site downtown to a new, 200-acre site...
« Last Edit: September 08, 2009, 10:59:58 AM by McCleveland »
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Offline surfohio

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Re: Cleveland: Lakefront Development News
« Reply #131 on: December 12, 2007, 04:48:09 PM »
I thought that press release came out a week ago???  I thought the property adjacent to the airport made the most sense, but the FAA was apparently not going to allow it. Somebody on here posted a cool "transit hub" idea about it.

Yeesh, I know it's a big project but 20 years...very frustrating how slowly things move.

That's the crux of my disappointment with the lakefront plan as a whole.

Offline X

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Re: Cleveland: Lakefront Development News
« Reply #132 on: December 12, 2007, 09:23:14 PM »
I understand, but is it really fair to be disappointed or frustrated with it without showing how it could reasonably be done quicker?

Offline KJP

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Re: Cleveland: Lakefront Development News
« Reply #133 on: December 12, 2007, 09:53:59 PM »
There is the product called rubber soil (heated mix of scrap tires and pulverized concrete from demolition sites) that can be used with dredgings to more rapidly expand the lake fill and get it done in a decade or so. But unless we want to dredge the Cuyahoga River to a 100-foot depth in a couple of years, there really is no way to speed up the process further that I'm aware of.
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Offline X

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Re: Cleveland: Lakefront Development News
« Reply #134 on: December 12, 2007, 10:08:50 PM »
Is the 20 years considering that material's use?  In addition to the time it will take to create fill the dredging dump area, there is the time to actually build all the facilites.  That has to tack on a few years to that decade or so.

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Re: Cleveland: Lakefront Development News
« Reply #135 on: December 12, 2007, 10:23:58 PM »
To qualify for federal funds from the Army Corps of Engineers, any dredgings dump needs to have a multi-decade capacity. But it can also be combined with beach nourishment -- if the dredgings are cleaned of pollutants first. See my article at:

http://www.urbanohio.com/forum2/index.php?topic=2591.msg70057#msg70057
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Offline surfohio

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Re: Cleveland: Lakefront Development News
« Reply #136 on: December 13, 2007, 07:46:08 AM »
I understand, but is it really fair to be disappointed or frustrated with it without showing how it could reasonably be done quicker?

Do you mean the port relocation or lakefront plan in general or both?  I am sure your definition of "reasonable" may be different than mine. I'm just an average person that's frustrated by how long it will take to fix a coastline that has been horribly mistreated for 150 years. I find the timeline unacceptable. I hate waiting and that is a long long time for things to improve. I will buy everyone a shovel if that will help speed things up.  :-)

Seriously though, any one of us can come up with a far reaching, unrealistic, 50-100 year plan that looks terrific in a flashy powerpoint presentation. Problem is, over such a long stretch of time there are literally thousands of variables that will intervene over the course of that timeline.  As you've seen with the West Shoreway relocation, delays equal much higher costs as time goes on. The longer the city waits to fully capitalize on its waterfront the greater the damage.

The shoreline has to be recognized by the state of Ohio as damaged infrastructure that is in immediate need of restoration/redevelopment. A simple boardwalk along the coastline would be a realistic and timely first step. It would be a tremendous engine for retail and recreational development. And it could be constructed to coexist with the Port, bringing thousands access to view and experience the beautiful lake and striking views of our industrial and shipping heritage. The longer the city waits to fully capitalize on its waterfront the greater the damage.

« Last Edit: December 13, 2007, 09:30:44 AM by surfohio »

Offline MuRrAy HiLL

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Re: Cleveland: Lakefront Development News
« Reply #137 on: December 13, 2007, 08:15:42 AM »
I do suppose in all retrospect, 20 years is much less than another 100-150 years.  I'm not sure if that's what you're implying as well surfohio, but it does put it in better perspective.  Building for the next generation is never a bad thing, and maybe that is something we have lacked here in recent history (EDIT: mostly meaning 60's and 70's ...seems like we're still recovering from the era!)
« Last Edit: December 13, 2007, 08:24:19 AM by MuRrAy HiLL »
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Offline 8ShadesofGray

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Re: Cleveland: Lakefront Development News
« Reply #138 on: December 13, 2007, 08:20:48 AM »
The move could displace a state-owned marina at East 55th, but port officials said the site would be less expensive and offer more business-development opportunities than another relocation option -- a man-made island off the west breakwall.

From my perspective, this is a real shame. Would we be talking about just the marina portion of the park or the pier and the boardwalk as well? Maybe I'm being a NIMBY, and I recognize that something had to go, short of building offshore, but it is nice to have a park, bike trail and cafe (Andrea's) all centered around E. 55th, and the area is surprisingly well used. Not to mention, on a shoreline peppered with private, semi-exclusive yacht clubs, it's nice to have a public launching area.

Offline surfohio

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Re: Cleveland: Lakefront Development News
« Reply #139 on: December 13, 2007, 09:26:12 AM »
I do suppose in all retrospect, 20 years is much less than another 100-150 years.  I'm not sure if that's what you're implying as well surfohio, but it does put it in better perspective.  Building for the next generation is never a bad thing, and maybe that is something we have lacked here in recent history (EDIT: mostly meaning 60's and 70's ...seems like we're still recovering from the era!)

Good point, lack of foresight was the problem, but I am selfish and more motivated by what benefits me!!! The next generation will be listening to bad music, spray painting buildings, reminiscing about 60's-70's architecture and pushing the elderly (us) around all over the newly renovated lakefront.
« Last Edit: December 13, 2007, 09:28:04 AM by surfohio »

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