Author Topic: Cleveland: Random Development News & Info  (Read 1097824 times)

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Offline blinker12

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Re: Cleveland: Random Development News & Info
« Reply #70 on: November 08, 2005, 09:24:42 AM »
I agree with everyone about Tower City, that its future prospects are linked to the downtown population's growth and demographics. However, what impact do you think that placing the Convention Center on the TC site would have on TC? Would we see an instant improvement in the retail offerings?

We might initially see higher-end offerings at TC if the convention center were placed there, but I think they would quickly go dark as it became apparent that the center proved not to be the economic stimulus we were hoping for. Just look at what's happening in Pittsburgh. High-end stores couldn't survive on a couple of conventions a year!

Offline Map Boy

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Re: Cleveland: Random Development News & Info
« Reply #71 on: November 08, 2005, 09:28:00 AM »
yeah, if they had an "outlet" for several major retailers, I'd be down there quite a bit!  I've had lots of issues with finding simple things like pots and pans and cutting boards within walking (and transit) distance of my home in Ohio City and if there were some outlet stores that had those sorts of things in TC, I'd be there in a sec!  I'm not talking National Wholesale Liquidators or anything...just Williams Sonoma, J Crew, etc. selling things that are just fine at a better price!

Also, anyone know those shops in London that have very modest store sizes, but sell things like full kitchen sets and the like.  You go in and they have several displays available and catalogs to flip through and then you pick your items and they have them either shipped in the next day from a local warehouse or they pull them out from a very efficient back room.  It's a much better use of space than keeping all your stock out on the floor.  One I remember was Argos...

Offline Ewoops

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Re: Cleveland: Random Development News & Info
« Reply #72 on: November 08, 2005, 09:29:36 AM »
Would the CC, in conjunction with an attached casino (at the old Higbee's building, thereby forcing conventioners to walk through the mall to get to the casino) make any difference?  I can see wives shopping while their husbands gambled.   It seems like the combination of the CC, a casino, and the attached hotels would make it a weekend shopping and gambling destination, and might even help the city attract a few more conventions.

I guess this is a moot point unless Ohio approves casino gambling at some point in the near future.

Offline blinker12

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Re: Cleveland: Random Development News & Info
« Reply #73 on: November 08, 2005, 09:51:59 AM »
Yes, I can see that combo working to enliven Tower City, at least temporarily. Yet I still can't bring myself to support gambling downtown. For one thing, we would again be relying on outsiders (tourists and suburbanites) to revitalize the center city, and that approach has failed again and again. It generates a kind of "empty energy" that creates the appearance of vitality for a while but tapers off as the novelty fades. (See the stadiums, Rock Hall, Tower City.) I don't think downtown will ever truly come back until it manages to become a mixed-use neighborhood with a significant number of full-time residents. And IMO a casino would scare off more potential residents than it would attract.
« Last Edit: November 08, 2005, 09:53:51 AM by blinker12 »

Offline YSOH

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Re: Cleveland: Random Development News & Info
« Reply #74 on: November 08, 2005, 10:00:06 AM »

^I agree blinker12.  I'm afraid casinos downtown would just be a quick fix and would not add to its sustainability.  I also fear that it would push downtown toward only being a fun place on weekend nights instead of being a 24/7 live/work/play location.

Re: the CC, if Jackson wins does it seem like a 'sure thing' (as much as a 'sure thing' can exist here) that it will be behind Tower City?

Offline Map Boy

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Re: Cleveland: Random Development News & Info
« Reply #75 on: November 08, 2005, 10:04:04 AM »
Aside from the argument that casinos and gambling can bring with them all sorts of unwanted  social and economic side effects, I think that B12's argument is the most sound one for opposing a Downtown Cleveland casino.  As it is, it's tough to convince people that Downtown is more than just a place to spend your 9-5 and maybe hang out for a game or a show.  On the weekends, the bars and clubs are overwhelmed with people who don't give a rat's a$$ about the residents who live upstairs.  If we want to bring Downtown's population over the 10,000 mark (not including our neighbors with a view from the Justice Center!), we're going to have to create neighborhoods based around amenities and community, not gambling and night clubs. 

Offline Map Boy

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Re: Cleveland: Random Development News & Info
« Reply #76 on: November 08, 2005, 10:07:59 AM »
Quote
Re: the CC, if Jackson wins does it seem like a 'sure thing' (as much as a 'sure thing' can exist here) that it will be behind Tower City?

Interesting question.  He may support that location personally, but it really isn't the Mayor's decision.  The Convention Facilities Authority is charged with that task and has members appointed by the Mayor and County (and elsewhere?).  Jackson may be able to change the representation in that body if he wins, but that won't necessarily make the difference. 

Bottom line there is that a lot of facts still need to present themselves before they recommend a site.  And from where I sit, I just can't see the facts leading anyone to choose the TC site!

Offline 3231

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Re: Cleveland: Random Development News & Info
« Reply #77 on: November 08, 2005, 10:11:01 AM »
YSOH

Frank's right-hand man and convention board appointee (Ken Silliman) is 100% behind the mall site. 

Offline YSOH

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Re: Cleveland: Random Development News & Info
« Reply #78 on: November 08, 2005, 10:16:21 AM »
Frank's right-hand man and convention board appointee (Ken Silliman) is 100% behind the mall site. 

Interesting...

Offline Map Boy

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Re: Cleveland: Random Development News & Info
« Reply #79 on: November 08, 2005, 10:18:36 AM »
Not that I'd call KS FJ's "right hand man" just yet, but it's true that KS is a big player as he is already on the CFA and supports the mall site.

I will correct my earlier post, by the way, by indicating that the Mayor and Council President have two appointed members each on the CFA, so the dynamic could change, but we likely already know who the future mayor (Jane or Frank) will put on the committee.

Offline Map Boy

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Re: Cleveland: Random Development News & Info
« Reply #80 on: November 08, 2005, 10:22:03 AM »
It's all broken down and laid out at http://www.conventioncleveland.com/members.html.  11 members: 4 appointed by the City (2 by Mayor, 2 by Council President), 4 appointed by the County Commissioners and 3 by the County Mayors and Managers Assoc.

Offline Ewoops

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Re: Cleveland: Random Development News & Info
« Reply #81 on: November 08, 2005, 10:52:52 AM »
Silliman, per a conversation last week, is not 100% behind the Mall Site. He is leaning that way, but said that he could be convinced otherwise should Forest City commit to a world class design and to keeping up and improving Tower City.

I'm not sold on casino gambling, but think that other big ticket projects, while their economic impact is questionable, are not failures and have had a huge psychological impact on downtown. I agree that projects geared toward tourists and suburbanites should take secondary position behind those geared toward existing and potential residents, but wouldn't want to imagine what downtown would look like had the stadiums, Playhouse Square (another big ticket project geared toward tourists and suburbanites) and other big ticket projects not taken place.

Companies and people locate downtown in part because they want to be near the action. Without those projects, many more businesses might have given up on downtown, and there just aren't that many people willing to make a reverse commute in order to live downtown. I think we would have less residents and businesses in the area. While there may have been wiser public investments, I don't know that the necessary political will and capital existed to get them done.

Further, these are the type of mixed uses that make downtown neighborhoods unique. I'm not saying they're a cure-all, but their effects have been positive. Even after the novelty has worn off, they attract millions of tourists into downtown every year, and tons of money coming into from outside of Cleveland proper. That being said, this type of project should be done with in conjunction with residential neighborhood type projects, not instead of them.


Offline YSOH

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Re: Cleveland: Random Development News & Info
« Reply #82 on: November 08, 2005, 11:24:47 AM »
My gut reaction is to put casinos in a different pot from other big-ticket items (like the stadiums, the rock hall, E 4th entertainment, etc.), even if they are all marketing themselves to suburbanites.
« Last Edit: November 08, 2005, 11:26:20 AM by YSOH »

Offline blinker12

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Re: Cleveland: Random Development News & Info
« Reply #83 on: November 08, 2005, 11:36:44 AM »
Well said, Ewoops. I guess I'm advocating a tip of the balance *toward* residential and neighborhood-type development downtown, with big-ticket tourist development taking a backseat. The legacy of the White years is that we now have a lot of downtown attractions to attract visitors. What we don't have is much to make people want to live there -- i.e. a healthy-looking retail district along Euclid, well-planned green space, for-sale and rental properties marketed to a range of income levels (not just high-end). The big-ticket stuff was a good first step in that it at least got people thinking positively about downtown again; now we need to cultivate something deeper.
Also, I believe we should nix projects that could be detrimental to "quality of life" downtown -- and I include the casino in that category. Show me a place where a casino exists in a desirable residential neighborhood, and I'll change my tune.
« Last Edit: November 08, 2005, 11:37:27 AM by blinker12 »

Offline 3231

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Re: Cleveland: Random Development News & Info
« Reply #84 on: November 08, 2005, 12:04:34 PM »
I saw a large banner being unveiled today on the Landmark office towers.  It is on the red brick part that faces Ontario. It looks like it is of a basketbal player. Hmm, whoever could it be? :) 

Offline MyTwoSense

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Re: Cleveland: Random Development News & Info
« Reply #85 on: November 08, 2005, 02:53:10 PM »
I agree with everyone about Tower City, that its future prospects are linked to the downtown population's growth and demographics.  However, what impact do you think that placing the Convention Center on the TC site would have on TC?  Would we see an instant improvement in the retail offerings?

In addition, when TC opened it had stores that needed round the clock shoppers not just office workers - and many of the stores in the mall had parent company's or franchisee in horrible financial situations. 

Barney's wanted to stay open in Cleveland and even signed a leasee to expand into the space next door to enlarge the mens store, but financially wasn't able to keep the amount of stores they had opened afloat, so they closed 2 stores in metro NYC, Houston & Cleveland. Gucci was going thru internal termoil as Tom Ford was just coming on but our store had the "old" gucci motif and very little clothing.  Next door, at LV the franchiseewent bankrupt as well as Adrienne Vittadini, who closed all her retail boutiques.  This information is from those that actually worked in the stores as I had many friends who were managers who were pissed that these stores failed.  Yet the media made it seem like it was Cleveland who couldn't support the stores when that was not true.    If you notice the restaurant collection at TC is doing VERY well at towercity even on non event nights.  TowerCity was like one big gay bar back in the day and you know...where the gays shop...the straight women will a follow! Stereotypical, yes.  But very true! 

The one HUGE difference between then and now is the CURRENT 10k + residents and the planned (approximate) 1100 apartments that Downtown Cleveland has.   Not to mention the two "surprise" projects, the cavs project and spotted condo's that pop up.

When TC opened I worked at SOHIO so everyday I was shopping even on the weekends, however, for the eastsiders still had the  Beachwood (area) Malls mostly inner city residents and westsiders shopped downtown.

Most people who worked at former stores blame the media (same with the flats) for spreading the "mall is dead" rumors instead of stating what really happened at each of those INDIVIDUAL stores.

TowerCity, the Galleria will rebound.

There is a current need for:
Home furnishing stores
Mens'/Womens & Children's fashions
Electronic/Photography/Techie Stores
Personal Services/Spas
Specialty Food Store
Teen stores/attractions
Childrens store and toy stores
Markdown and Outlet stores
Locally own shops/boutiques

I could go on.....

Cleveland HAD some of the best shopping in the country in its downtown and free standing stores will return, but how will they if the citizens aren't vocal about it.  I'm sure people would return to downtown to shop,  which would bring more housing and be a reason for tourist and special occasion shoppers (of all income levels) to come downtown, if we could get a retail corridor [say (public sq - to CSU on Euclid), Ontario to E. 14 (on Prospect & Huron) & Public Sq. to West 10 on Superior] up and running.  I'm sure more folks in the city proper would opt to shop downtown instead of trekking to a mall, if this type of development was put in place.  I hear all the time "we need better shopping downtown" or "better shopping downtown will bring people back".

There could be plenty of marketing tie-ins for tourist/conventions as the city would have another economic source/indicator added to its destination point status.

OK...Now you guys have got my creative juices flowing!

We could call our retail district "Millionaires Row".  Steeped in history of the city making stores of all price points safe since is will be located where people actually live and can easily get to.  Spin off ad/marketing/promotion dollars from hotels would help and this "special improvement district" could market itself to the businesses in the district and help pay for green space, benches, "ambassadors", securtiy, etc.  It could be our own Rodeo(LA), Fifth Ave (NYC), Magnificent Mile(CHI), Georgetown(DC), Lincoln Road(MIA), Newbury Street(BOS), since Euclid Avenue was around prior to all those other "retail destinations" sans Fifth Ave.  It would also create FOOT TRAFFIC and keep the street lively.

Ok im gonna work further develop this... :type:
« Last Edit: November 08, 2005, 04:38:14 PM by MyTwoSense »
my 2      Please Sell Crazy Someplace Else....We Have Excess Inventory Here!!

Offline YSOH

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Re: Cleveland: Random Development News & Info
« Reply #86 on: November 10, 2005, 10:23:37 AM »

I just wanted to say that I walked to TC after work last night and all the stores were open until 7pm - some until 8.  I'd love them to be open later, but 7 is better than 6!  There were a good number of people shopping...

Offline 3231

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Re: Cleveland: Random Development News & Info
« Reply #87 on: November 10, 2005, 10:26:49 AM »
I wonder if they stayed open later because of the Cavs game.

Offline Map Boy

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Re: Cleveland: Random Development News & Info
« Reply #88 on: November 10, 2005, 10:39:52 AM »
could be...it seems like every other store in there is selling sporting goods and memorabilia!

YSOH...were the stores open normal hours or were they extended for this reason?

Offline YSOH

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Re: Cleveland: Random Development News & Info
« Reply #89 on: November 10, 2005, 10:52:21 AM »

Nope, they're always open until 7.  See website: http://www.towercitycenter.com/shop_stores.asp The hours are down a little on the left.

Offline MayDay

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Re: Cleveland: Random Development News & Info
« Reply #90 on: November 10, 2005, 10:56:09 AM »
When I worked at Tower City for a holiday season - there were reps from Forest City who would come around the stores at closing time. If the doors were closed any earlier than the posted Tower City closing time, the store would be assessed a penalty.

Offline Map Boy

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Re: Cleveland: Random Development News & Info
« Reply #91 on: November 10, 2005, 11:54:37 AM »
nice!  any word on whether or not this is still the practice?  I kinda doubt it.

Offline CtownD

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Re: Cleveland: Random Development News & Info
« Reply #92 on: November 10, 2005, 12:25:21 PM »
While looking at the listing of store tenants at Tower City, I noticed that they're opening up a Kuhlman (men's shirts and ties) store sometime in the near future (it only said "opening soon").  While it may not make up for the loss of J. Crew and Banana Republic it's encouraging to see that not all of the new stores are along the lines of a Dollar Store.  I believe that the only other Kuhlman in the Cleveland Area is out at either Beachwood or Legacy.  Seems to be the store demographic is splitting two ways now, part of the mall is going the Brooks Brothers/Ann Taylor route, and the other half, well I think we've covered where the other half is going in terms of the caliber of retailer.

Offline CTownsFinest216

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Re: Cleveland: Random Development News & Info
« Reply #93 on: November 12, 2005, 10:21:06 PM »
i'm glad im not the only one who noticed the pathetic early closing time at tower city. sometimes i've seen stores close a lot earlier than they are supposed to....

question- that new parking garage....wasnt there supposed to be a condo or somethin built on top? anyone know the status of that?

Offline 3231

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Re: Cleveland: Random Development News & Info
« Reply #94 on: November 12, 2005, 10:25:13 PM »
^when the price of materials go down and selling price of downtown condos go up, then you'll see something on top of that parking garage.

Online Deech

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Re: Cleveland: Random Development News & Info
« Reply #95 on: November 17, 2005, 03:44:32 PM »
Whats the deal with that old abandon hotel next to the news 8 building. You see it right when you get downtown, its a eye sore! Is anything going to be done to it? Thanks

Offline KJP

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Re: Cleveland: Random Development News & Info
« Reply #96 on: November 17, 2005, 08:15:55 PM »
That's a former Howard Johnson's that opened in 1966. There was a developer a few years ago who was going to reopen it as a hotel, but 9/11 wounded the tourism economy and killed the hotel plan.

If we can take long-abandoned warehouses and redevelop them into housing, why not a hotel with a great view of the lake and downtown?
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Offline mrnyc

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Re: Cleveland: Random Development News & Info
« Reply #97 on: November 19, 2005, 12:21:28 PM »
^the old hojo may be the perfect hotel for some entrepreneurial clevelanders to renovate into a hipster hotel for attracting the youth culture, rock hall guests and young business people. renovation of funky old motel hotels/motels is a big hospitality craze around the country. check it out:

http://www.budgettravelonline.com/bt-dyn/content/article/2005/06/04/AR2005060400804.html




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Offline Map Boy

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Re: Cleveland: Random Development News & Info
« Reply #98 on: November 20, 2005, 04:55:21 PM »
with less palm trees...

Offline Map Boy

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Re: Cleveland: Random Development News & Info
« Reply #99 on: November 20, 2005, 07:20:15 PM »

Offline smackem81

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Re: Cleveland: Random Development News & Info
« Reply #100 on: November 20, 2005, 08:03:03 PM »
^^It would be a theroeticaly prime building to convert had that area town been something, rather than alot of nothing. Just like it took so long for Quay55 to develop into anything

Offline Map Boy

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Re: Cleveland: Random Development News & Info
« Reply #101 on: November 20, 2005, 08:12:23 PM »
It's an even more obvious one than the Westinghouse building on the Near-West-Side.  Both have height, visibility, proximity to Downtown and parks, and the potential to be unique rehabs.  Westinghouse would be a much more significant conversion, while the HoJo's would presumably be less so.  Although, who knows what kind of condition either one of them is in?

Offline 3231

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Re: Cleveland: Random Development News & Info
« Reply #102 on: November 20, 2005, 08:16:06 PM »
That hotel is one of the last things that I would try to redevelop in Cleveland.  It is too separated from the rest of the city.  It would have no catalytic effect.  Put the youth hostel closer to the action in Cleveland. Put it near one of the rapid routes.  Young out-of-towners will be more likely to take a train to a hostel than a bus to some out of the way hotel that sits next to a highway and far from any significant urban life.  I would love to see a hostel on West 25th, just south of Lorain.  Due to the economics of this use, its difficult to put it on prime real estate. 

Offline 3231

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Re: Cleveland: Random Development News & Info
« Reply #103 on: November 20, 2005, 08:20:18 PM »
The Westinghouse is a no-brainer.  Great views, access to West 65th and Edgewater.  Also, the lakefront blvd will improve the area greatly.

Offline Map Boy

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Re: Cleveland: Random Development News & Info
« Reply #104 on: November 21, 2005, 10:44:51 AM »
I don't know where the hostel idea came from...I know MrNYC mentioned a hipster hotel for the young crowd, but those are definitely a little different from a youth hostel!  I agree that a hostel in Ohio City could work...maybe in the recently vacated YMCA on Franklin or in the West Side Community Center on Bridge?  Those are likely too large...  However, I think I'd prefer to see it Downtown, close to CSU.  There's an interesting thread on the subject somewhere on here...

I could see the hipster hotel working in the old HoJo's...especially if the Waterfront Line is extended eventually and the Lakefront continues to be developed.  It's just south of the Quay 55 redevelopment and the new townhouses that they are planning to build there.  Of course, the connection to the lakefront is still lacking south of the Shoreway, so that's an issue.

And yes, Westinghouse is in a much more suitable urban context at present.  It is similarly cut off from the lake by the Shoreway and train tracks, but the connection and the existing neighborhood are much more attainable and amenable. 

Is anyone talking about either one of these?  Aside from us, that is...

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