Author Topic: The Trump Presidency  (Read 270894 times)

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Online down4cle

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #3640 on: February 14, 2017, 03:41:29 PM »
Trump ignored DOJ warnings.  He ignored them because he is in on the treason.  If Flynn did lie to the FBI, look for him to be given immunity for his testimony.  The FBI didn't interview him for giggles.  They were setting the trap.   

Online down4cle

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #3641 on: February 14, 2017, 03:46:05 PM »

Online eastvillagedon

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #3642 on: February 14, 2017, 03:46:27 PM »
the whole point of trying to elevate all of these tempests-in-a-teapot into something akin to treason is just a never-ending attempt to delegitimize a legitimately elected president. I think we're at the point where this has reached a saturation point with the majority of the Americans. I believe even most non-Trump voters are willing to give him a chance, but you'd never know that from the way the media (particularly the NY Times) keeps beating the drum of the most extremist elements of the opposition. And we wonder why there's so much cynicism with the press.

Online down4cle

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #3643 on: February 14, 2017, 03:48:58 PM »
It's all the press, it's not the fact that the country is being run by a confederacy of dunces.  The media is starting to actually wake up.

Online down4cle

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #3644 on: February 14, 2017, 03:50:41 PM »
Treason:

Whoever, owing allegiance to the United States, levies war against them or adheres to their enemies, giving them aid and comfort within the United States or elsewhere, is guilty of treason and shall suffer death, or shall be imprisoned not less than five years and fined under this title but not less than $10,000; and shall be incapable of holding any office under the United States.

Yep - that's it.
« Last Edit: February 14, 2017, 03:51:03 PM by down4cle »

Offline KJP

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #3645 on: February 14, 2017, 03:54:41 PM »
Lock 'em up!!

Mike Flynn might be done – but Trump's nightmare has just begun

It sounded ridiculous at the time. But after a month of this gonzo president, our memories are already fading. Propaganda will do that to you, as George Orwell warned us all in 1984. Sometimes two and two are four. Sometimes they are five.

Still, it’s true that the Trump campaign seized on the preposterous FBI investigation into Clinton’s emails to issue this press release: “Clinton’s Careless Use of a Secret Server Put National Security At Risk.”

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/feb/14/mike-flynn-resignation-trumps-nightmare-begun-mar-a-lago?CMP=fb_gu
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Online Hootenany

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #3646 on: February 14, 2017, 04:09:02 PM »
the whole point of trying to elevate all of these tempests-in-a-teapot into something akin to treason is just a never-ending attempt to delegitimize a legitimately elected president. I think we're at the point where this has reached a saturation point with the majority of the Americans.

Tempest in a teapot... right.

gee, didja ever think that if Obama had told the truth about Benghazi in the first place it would have never become so politicized?? that's the whole point, there was a cover-up from day one!

From the 2008 Presidential Election thread:
Quote
Maybe we'll someday he'll even release his transcripts, medical records and...(drum roll)...a real birth certificate (at least nobody will accuse him of being a "sellout" :roll:).

Online jmecklenborg

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #3647 on: February 14, 2017, 04:21:54 PM »
Judge Painter of Cincinnati calls for Trump's immediate impeachment...it will be interesting to see if Trump catches wind of this modest local post and calls him a so-called judge or attempts to smear or intimidate him:
http://www.cincinnati.com/story/opinion/contributors/2017/02/14/republican-painter-s-time-impeach-trump/97893248/

Online down4cle

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #3648 on: February 14, 2017, 04:28:13 PM »
^^ That's not fair to use his own words against him. I seem to remember a high profile person also trying to delegitimize Obama's presidency by claiming he wasn't born in U.S.  what was his name....oh yeah...Donald J. Trump.  Tell me again why I shouldn't delegitimize him.
« Last Edit: February 14, 2017, 04:29:32 PM by down4cle »

Online down4cle

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #3649 on: February 14, 2017, 04:43:52 PM »
Just within the last week we have:

Appeals Court blocking Trump's EO
Trump taking off another weekend to go to Mar a Lago (enriching himself)
Conway committed an ethics violation
Nuclear Football carrier is in a selfie with a Mar-a Lago guest
Trump discusses N Korea missile launch at a public table
Trump aides use smart phone lights to view sensitive documents
Mike Flynn forced to resign only because the public became aware of his TREASON

Did I miss anything?  This is one week's time people.

So much winning.

Offline Gramarye

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #3650 on: February 14, 2017, 05:15:56 PM »
I think this article by the fairly strongly libertarian David Harsanyi at The Federalist (more libertarian than even I am) does a pretty good job of setting out why conservatives who are uneasy with Trump are nevertheless standing by him for the moment, and likely will do so for the foreseeable future:

http://thefederalist.com/2017/02/14/why-the-resistance-is-the-best-thing-that-could-have-happened-to-donald-trump/

Online down4cle

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #3651 on: February 14, 2017, 05:22:20 PM »
NYT reporting that Flynn may not have been forthcoming with FBI agents.  In related news, Mike Pence was not briefed about DOJ warning about Flynn's  lie until February 9.

Someone get me some popcorn.
« Last Edit: February 14, 2017, 05:27:30 PM by down4cle »

Offline Hts121

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #3652 on: February 14, 2017, 05:57:50 PM »
As for what we know he did do, I don't know the legalities, but just looking at things from a laymen's standpoint, I would not take issue with him having conversations with the Russian ambassador before PTD took office.  But he crosses a line when he undermines the current POTUS's efforts to make Russia behave by telling the Russians to just hold tight, don't change anything, Obama will be out of office soon so just ignore the warning shots he is firing.  That is indeed arguably treasonous and he damn well knew better, and if he didn't then he is incompetent.

Again, I'm not sure how that alone can be labeled treasonous.  In fact, he would have been allowed to make those exact statements ("hold tight, don't rock the boat, Obama will be out of office soon") on TV or in an open letter and I don't see how it would have been illegal.  The secrecy alone doesn't change a legal statement into an illegal one.

Really?  Consider the context. Obama imposed sanctions because Russia was meddling in our democratic process to one degree or another (no need to argue how much or how significant the impact was). If Flynn, a retired general and future NSA, tells the Russians to just weather the storm and keep doing what they are doing, that wouldnt arguably be treasonous?  I'm not saying that's what happened. But that was the hypothetical I framed.
« Last Edit: February 14, 2017, 05:58:56 PM by Hts121 »
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Offline Cleburger

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #3653 on: February 14, 2017, 07:36:12 PM »
^^If he was already a nut case when Obama hired him what does that say about his judgement?

Really EVD?   Obama was so last year.  Flynn and Trump are so the last 30 days.    There is no defending this guy....
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Online eastvillagedon

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #3654 on: February 14, 2017, 08:07:52 PM »
^I see, the split second Obama left office he washed his hands of any accountability for the past 8 years. Gotcha.

Offline Gramarye

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #3655 on: February 14, 2017, 08:10:43 PM »
As for what we know he did do, I don't know the legalities, but just looking at things from a laymen's standpoint, I would not take issue with him having conversations with the Russian ambassador before PTD took office.  But he crosses a line when he undermines the current POTUS's efforts to make Russia behave by telling the Russians to just hold tight, don't change anything, Obama will be out of office soon so just ignore the warning shots he is firing.  That is indeed arguably treasonous and he damn well knew better, and if he didn't then he is incompetent.

Again, I'm not sure how that alone can be labeled treasonous.  In fact, he would have been allowed to make those exact statements ("hold tight, don't rock the boat, Obama will be out of office soon") on TV or in an open letter and I don't see how it would have been illegal.  The secrecy alone doesn't change a legal statement into an illegal one.

Really?  Consider the context. Obama imposed sanctions because Russia was meddling in our democratic process to one degree or another (no need to argue how much or how significant the impact was). If Flynn, a retired general and future NSA, tells the Russians to just weather the storm and keep doing what they are doing, that wouldnt arguably be treasonous?  I'm not saying that's what happened. But that was the hypothetical I framed.

No, I don't think it would arguably be treasonous, for the same reason that I opposed conservatives talking about Obama's Iran deal as treasonous.  To Trump's administration, Russia is not an "enemy of the United States" (or at least no rational person looking at it can say so), so how can giving it "aid" (if indeed anything Flynn said even rose to that level, but even assuming that for the sake of argument) be treasonous?  The entire point of the Treason Clause of the Constitution was to limit the range of conduct that could be considered treasonous so as to exclude ordinary political and policy disagreements.  If Congress were to declare war on Russia over a presidential veto, then you could say that Russia is an enemy of the United States notwithstanding anything the president might say to the contrary.  But the mere fact that Russia is sanctioned under federal law cannot be the standard for establishing who is an "enemy of the United States" for purposes of the Treason Clause, or else Obama's clandestine negotiations with Iran (another sanctioned entity engaged in discussions about lifting those sanctions) was equally treasonous.  But that means that neither was treasonous, not that both were.

If you think it was treasonous for Flynn to tell Russia to not retaliate, are you implying that it would have been non-treasonous to tell Russia to retaliate with everything they've got?  You either believe the secrecy of the conversation makes it treasonous or the content of the conversation makes it treasonous, and neither one does if it was simply stating the position of the transition team.  If we find out later that Flynn revealed classified information or that he was actually being paid by the Russians to offer counsel to Trump that was other than what he would have offered if disinterested, then obviously we have a whole new ballgame (still even then might not be treason, but would almost certainly be criminal under some lesser federal statute or other).

Offline KJP

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #3656 on: February 14, 2017, 08:29:21 PM »
Flynn was in no position to tell Russia ANYTHING.

And it's the tip of the iceberg....

Dan Rather on Flynn: "Watergate is the biggest political scandal of my lifetime, until maybe now" https://t.co/7Yjot7SO9K

But Republicans held 13 hearings, 50 briefings. Used 588,000 taxpayer man-hours and $125 million investing Benghazi but won't with #Flynnghazi for something which they caused by cutting embassy security staff budgets.
« Last Edit: February 14, 2017, 08:30:52 PM by KJP »
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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #3657 on: February 14, 2017, 08:32:27 PM »
New York Times is reporting Russia is violating arms treaty. Hopefully, Trump is as tough on Russia as he was on Nordstrom.
« Last Edit: February 14, 2017, 08:34:35 PM by sir2gees »

Online down4cle

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #3658 on: February 14, 2017, 08:38:26 PM »
^I see, the split second Obama left office he washed his hands of any accountability for the past 8 years. Gotcha.

he washed his hands of accountability for flynn when he fired him.   trump was stupid enough to hire him after that.  it's on him
« Last Edit: February 14, 2017, 08:45:13 PM by down4cle »

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #3659 on: February 14, 2017, 08:49:56 PM »
No, I don't think it would arguably be treasonous, for the same reason that I opposed conservatives talking about Obama's Iran deal as treasonous.  To Trump's administration, Russia is not an "enemy of the United States" (or at least no rational person looking at it can say so), so how can giving it "aid" (if indeed anything Flynn said even rose to that level, but even assuming that for the sake of argument) be treasonous?  The entire point of the Treason Clause of the Constitution was to limit the range of conduct that could be considered treasonous so as to exclude ordinary political and policy disagreements.  If Congress were to declare war on Russia over a presidential veto, then you could say that Russia is an enemy of the United States notwithstanding anything the president might say to the contrary.  But the mere fact that Russia is sanctioned under federal law cannot be the standard for establishing who is an "enemy of the United States" for purposes of the Treason Clause, or else Obama's clandestine negotiations with Iran (another sanctioned entity engaged in discussions about lifting those sanctions) was equally treasonous.  But that means that neither was treasonous, not that both were.

If you think it was treasonous for Flynn to tell Russia to not retaliate, are you implying that it would have been non-treasonous to tell Russia to retaliate with everything they've got?  You either believe the secrecy of the conversation makes it treasonous or the content of the conversation makes it treasonous, and neither one does if it was simply stating the position of the transition team.  If we find out later that Flynn revealed classified information or that he was actually being paid by the Russians to offer counsel to Trump that was other than what he would have offered if disinterested, then obviously we have a whole new ballgame (still even then might not be treason, but would almost certainly be criminal under some lesser federal statute or other).

I think I agree with Gramarye on this one.  Based on what I know of the discussions I would certainly call them inappropriate.  Perhaps illegal.  But treason?  I don't think so.  With that said it sounds like there might be more to this than that simple conversation so I think I'll just wait for the onion to be peeled before getting out my pitchfork.

Offline jbcmh81

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #3660 on: February 14, 2017, 08:57:00 PM »
^^^ Ram - The assessment is spot on.  Therer is no other logical reason anyone would vote for such a con artist.

Give it a rest.  If you seriously believe that 61 million of your countrymen are racist, misogynist, sectarian, hateful bullies, then this isn't the country for you.  There are many reasons people would vote for Trump that have nothing to do with such traits, including most of the reasons that they might have voted for Jeb Bush or Marco Rubio: to ensure Justice Scalia's replacement with a constitutionalist jurist, to resist further expansion of the regulatory state (and maybe even roll it back, but at least slow the flood), to not turn the government over to Occupy and BLM protesters and sympathizers, etc.

^^ There is definitely more to this.  It is painfully obvious that the President is compromised.  I can see no other explanation.

I'm not ready to believe that the president personally is compromised in the sense of vulnerability to blackmail.  Of course, his financial entanglements represent a very obvious (if untested and unknowable in size) source of compromise, including the debts of his corporate entities as well as their interests in the tax and regulatory policies of foreign states that would otherwise not be much of a concern for a U.S. president.

61 million people are probably not all racist or sexist or bigoted in general themselves, but every single one of the 61 million tolerated those things about Trump when they voted for him.  I guess you could argue that that is still better, but I'm not so sure.  I happen to think, at the very least, it represents a serious character flaw in those voters.  And even if the argument is that they simply didn't know what kind of man Trump really was (which seems impossible to believe), ignorance of fact isn't an excuse.  To be honest, though, I haven't encountered a single Trump voter that didn't have questionable beliefs regarding immigrants, LGBT, racial minorities, women, etc.  Doesn't mean they're not out there, but it's getting harder to believe they exist.

Then I would question how many Trump voters you've encountered.  I would also encourage you to consider the possibility that you know some Trump voters who know your views about Trump voters and therefore don't admit to you that they were Trump voters.  I have a number of friends who voted for Trump who won't admit that publicly, but will to me because they know I at least didn't vote in favor of either major party candidate (and voted Portman for Senate).  The issues that matter to those who regularly vote Republican (taxes, the Supreme Court, etc.) didn't go away just because Trump was the nominee.  It's easy for a Trump opponent to say that voting against Trump was some kind of social obligation regardless of one's opinions on the Supreme Court.  The actual truth is that if four years of Trump allows for three reliable conservatives on the Supreme Court, he'll have left the Republic in better shape than he found it almost regardless of anything else he does, maybe even up to and including compromising state secrets to the Russians.  Even if he gets two appointments, it will be a substantial improvement.  A Hillary victory would likely have guaranteed that Garland was the most conservative appointment we'd see in the next four years, and replacing Scalia with Garland would have dramatically moved the Court to the left.

Quote
It's pretty easy to imagine that Trump is compromised.  When all the Russia stuff starting coming up prior to the election, liberals were told repeatedly that it was nonsense, that it was merely a conspiracy theory.  When global intelligence communities began piling up evidence that Russia had strong ties to the DNC hacking, Trump supporters brushed it off with "Hillary was just a terrible candidate!" As time goes on and more and more Russian connections to this administration have surfaced, now with Flynn's resignation, it just becomes less and less logical to believe that it doesn't go all the way to the top.  Sooner or later, 61 million people are going to have to come to the realization that they backed a fraud and possible traitor.

Hillary was a terrible candidate.  Perhaps you feel that statement brushes you off somehow, but it doesn't change the reality of that statement.

First, you don't have to personally meet every Trump supporter to make some pretty basic logical conclusions about them.  They fall into one of the 3 below: 
1. They actively supported Trump's widespread racism/bigotry.
2. They supported him DESPITE that widespread racism/bigotry, which means they were okay enough to tolerate it.
3. They were ignorant of it, which wouldn't seem to represent too many people just given the sheer amount of media coverage Trump's controversial statements and positions received prior to the election. 

The fact that you freely admit a lot of Trump supporters are unwilling to admit they voted for him says a lot.  Why hide it unless there were obvious negative associations to that support?

And frankly, a conservative SCOTUS would almost guarantee a regression of social equality.  Those voters thinking about that absolutely have to know that, and if they don't, shame on them for not doing basic research.

And did you just argue that treason was totally worth it in the long run?  Good god...

Hillary was flawed, but she was infinitely better than what's there now.  It boggles the mind how this continues to be a debate.




« Last Edit: February 14, 2017, 08:57:51 PM by jbcmh81 »

Offline stpats44113

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #3661 on: February 14, 2017, 09:06:02 PM »
"The actual truth is that if four years of Trump allows for three reliable conservatives on the Supreme Court, he'll have left the Republic in better shape than he found it almost regardless of anything else he does."

This is petrifying in its totality. He can burn the country down but as long as as he can land a few conservatives on the Supreme Court, it's a win. Well, he's less than four weeks in and he's well on his way.

Offline jbcmh81

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #3662 on: February 14, 2017, 09:11:43 PM »
^I see, the split second Obama left office he washed his hands of any accountability for the past 8 years. Gotcha.

You really have nothing here but some incredible intellectual dishonesty.  Obviously, Obama made a mistake and corrected it by firing the guy.  Why then, did Trump think it was a good idea to hire him? 

Online down4cle

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #3663 on: February 14, 2017, 10:00:02 PM »
Did Spicy say today that there were no contacts with Russia during the campaign. It looks like Spicy was lying but that's all he does.

http://thehill.com/homenews/administration/319594-report-trump-campaign-aides-were-in-contact-with-russian-intel

lock them up! lock them up!


« Last Edit: February 14, 2017, 10:01:37 PM by down4cle »

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #3664 on: February 14, 2017, 10:06:56 PM »
Are any of you on the fencers waking up yet?  I know Trumpers are a lost cause.
« Last Edit: February 14, 2017, 10:07:08 PM by down4cle »

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #3665 on: February 14, 2017, 10:08:43 PM »
Pence lied about any Russian contact prior to the election too.

http://www.cnn.com/2017/01/15/politics/mike-pence-flynn-trump-russia-contacts/

Offline KJP

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #3666 on: February 14, 2017, 10:35:13 PM »
BREAKING: Trump advisers were in constant communication during the campaign with Russians, multiple officials say https://t.co/P8XTFxfEtg
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Offline KJP

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #3667 on: February 14, 2017, 10:39:12 PM »
Holy sh*t.
Harry Reid letter to Comey: you have explosive information about ties between Trump and the Russian govt https://t.co/xJX45hzkpM
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Offline KJP

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #3668 on: February 14, 2017, 10:42:11 PM »
Twitter is like 1974 right now
#trumpleaks #allthepresidentsmen https://t.co/9mlLLmfTj9
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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #3669 on: February 14, 2017, 10:43:47 PM »
Is this treason yet?  #benedictdonald   #donniemoscow

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #3670 on: February 14, 2017, 11:18:52 PM »
Yeah.

Offline KJP

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #3671 on: February 14, 2017, 11:23:26 PM »
Where are all the so-called patriots who screamed "lock her up" during the campaign?

For weeks, POTUS allowed total access to American intel for a man he knew was vulnerable to Russian blackmail. Undisputed fact.
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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #3672 on: February 14, 2017, 11:54:46 PM »
Trump aides were in constant touch with senior Russian officials during campaign



High-level advisers close to then-presidential nominee Donald Trump were in constant communication during the campaign with Russians known to US intelligence, multiple current and former intelligence, law enforcement and administration officials tell CNN.

President-elect Trump and then-President Barack Obama were both briefed on details of the extensive communications between suspected Russian operatives and people associated with the Trump campaign and the Trump business, according to US officials familiar with the matter.

Both the frequency of the communications during early summer and the proximity to Trump of those involved "raised a red flag" with US intelligence and law enforcement, according to these officials. The communications were intercepted during routine intelligence collection targeting Russian officials and other Russian nationals known to US intelligence.

Among several senior Trump advisers regularly communicating with Russian nationals were then-campaign chairman Paul Manafort and then-adviser Michael Flynn.

Full article below:
http://www.cnn.com/2017/02/14/politics/donald-trump-aides-russians-campaign/index.html
« Last Edit: February 14, 2017, 11:56:03 PM by ColDayMan »
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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #3673 on: February 15, 2017, 08:12:18 AM »
^Doesn't look good...

Offline E Rocc

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #3674 on: February 15, 2017, 08:37:13 AM »
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/powerpost/wp/2017/02/14/harward-emerges-as-front-runner-to-replace-flynn-following-talks/?utm_term=.15635a80d57d

Admiral Harward would be a signal that Mattis is winning vis a vis foreign policy, a major good sign.

He's been on the blunt end of the stick, and he's not just a military thinker globally.   One of his pet issues has been increasing the education of girls, internationally.
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