Author Topic: Police Use of Force  (Read 110327 times)

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Online bfwissel

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Re: Police Use of Force
« Reply #1435 on: May 05, 2017, 11:27:04 AM »
When the suspect of a crime has a long history of committing offenses against others (i.e. he/she is a convicted criminal) yet the decorated officer who has dedicated themselves to public service is assumed by default to be the offending party that is a problem.  I'm not against holding officers to account for bad behavior.  It's just that we've gotten to the point of just assuming every officer who is doing their job serving the community is abusing their power based on the word of individuals who have spent their lives hurting others.  That is an extremely dangerous position to be in and empowers criminals to continue to take advantage of others.
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Offline down4cle

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Re: Police Use of Force
« Reply #1436 on: May 05, 2017, 11:28:00 AM »
^ Lot's of judgement in that post.  There is no use responding to you anymore. 

Offline surfohio

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Re: Police Use of Force
« Reply #1437 on: May 05, 2017, 11:29:22 AM »
When people make the bad guys the heroes and good guys the villains by default society as a whole suffers.

If only it were true, that every single police officer was qualified, honest, law abiding and heroic, well we wouldn't even be having this discussion. 

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Re: Police Use of Force
« Reply #1438 on: May 05, 2017, 11:30:36 AM »
Every person the police encounter is a hardened criminal and every officer is a decorated veteran who helps get kittens out of trees.  I just can't...

Online bfwissel

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Re: Police Use of Force
« Reply #1439 on: May 05, 2017, 11:32:26 AM »
Every person the police encounter is a hardened criminal and every officer is a decorated veteran who helps get kittens out of trees.  I just can't...

If you bothered to read my post I said it shouldn't be the default to assume the suspect is innocent and that the police officer is in the wrong.  I suggest you try reading my post next time before responding with drivel.
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Offline down4cle

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Re: Police Use of Force
« Reply #1440 on: May 05, 2017, 11:34:05 AM »
When the suspect of a crime has a long history of committing offenses against others (i.e. he/she is a convicted criminal) yet the decorated officer who has dedicated themselves to public service is assumed by default to be the offending party that is a problem.  I'm not against holding officers to account for bad behavior.  It's just that we've gotten to the point of just assuming every officer who is doing their job serving the community is abusing their power based on the word of individuals who have spent their lives hurting others.  That is an extremely dangerous position to be in and empowers criminals to continue to take advantage of others.

Every person the police encounter is a hardened criminal and every officer is a decorated veteran who helps get kittens out of trees.  I just can't...

If you bothered to read my post I said it shouldn't be the default to assume the suspect is innocent and that the police officer is in the wrong.  I suggest you try reading my post next time before responding with drivel.

Online ColDayMan

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Re: Police Use of Force
« Reply #1441 on: May 05, 2017, 11:36:14 AM »
It's just that we've gotten to the point of just assuming every officer who is doing their job serving the community is abusing their power based on the word of individuals who have spent their lives hurting others.

I don't think we've gotten to that point, at all.  I think police officers are still very much respected overall and suspects are still "guilty before innocent."  Look at the countless media examples of suspects that were frowned upon for selling cigarettes in Staten Island or guy walking in a Walmart with a fake gun in a fake gun aisle.

And keep in mind, I give my greatest respect to law enforcement (hell, one is my good friend and fellow UrbanOhio Admin).  I just think your specific incident in OTR is perhaps clouding your judgment in the grand scheme of things.
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Online Hts121

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Re: Police Use of Force
« Reply #1442 on: May 05, 2017, 11:38:51 AM »
When the suspect of a crime has a long history of committing offenses against others (i.e. he/she is a convicted criminal) yet the decorated officer who has dedicated themselves to public service is assumed by default to be the offending party that is a problem.  I'm not against holding officers to account for bad behavior.  It's just that we've gotten to the point of just assuming every officer who is doing their job serving the community is abusing their power based on the word of individuals who have spent their lives hurting others.  That is an extremely dangerous position to be in and empowers criminals to continue to take advantage of others.

I respect your opinion, but this is very far from reality.  I can't think of one example of a suspect with a long history of convictions who was given any presumption over a decorated officer based solely on the word of that type of suspect.  The suspect should be accorded the presumption of innocence for his/her alleged crime, although we know that doesn't always happen..... ESPECIALLY in the "court of public opinion".  The officer should be accorded the presumption that his/her behavior was lawful, and in 99.9% of police encounters that is exactly what happens.  But what is going on in the exceptions nowadays is that the officer's conduct is being captured on video and that video, sometimes lacking the proper context, captures some level of wrongdoing (perhaps not criminal wrongdoing).  Even with that video, the officers are still accorded more of a presumption than, say, a lifelong criminal caught on camera robbing someone on the street.
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Online bfwissel

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Re: Police Use of Force
« Reply #1443 on: May 05, 2017, 11:41:39 AM »
It's just that we've gotten to the point of just assuming every officer who is doing their job serving the community is abusing their power based on the word of individuals who have spent their lives hurting others.

I don't think we've gotten to that point, at all.  I think police officers are still very much respected overall and suspects are still "guilty before innocent."  Look at the countless media examples of suspects that were frowned upon for selling cigarettes in Staten Island or guy walking in a Walmart with a fake gun in a fake gun aisle.

And keep in mind, I give my greatest respect to law enforcement (hell, one is my good friend and fellow UrbanOhio Admin).  I just think your specific incident in OTR is perhaps clouding your judgment in the grand scheme of things.

I really do hope you're right, but anecdotally from conversations I've had with many officers over the last few years they're certainly not feeling the love from the community.  They're feeling like there is a target on their back and that every arrest they make opens them up to frivolous lawsuits.
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Offline Cleburger

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Re: Police Use of Force
« Reply #1444 on: May 05, 2017, 11:42:49 AM »
Whatever your opinion, this cop in Dallas needs to be tried.  He fired a high-powered rifle in the middle of a suburban neighborhood into a car full of teenagers driving away.  That is beyond reckless.
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Online ColDayMan

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Re: Police Use of Force
« Reply #1445 on: May 05, 2017, 11:45:10 AM »
It's just that we've gotten to the point of just assuming every officer who is doing their job serving the community is abusing their power based on the word of individuals who have spent their lives hurting others.

I don't think we've gotten to that point, at all.  I think police officers are still very much respected overall and suspects are still "guilty before innocent."  Look at the countless media examples of suspects that were frowned upon for selling cigarettes in Staten Island or guy walking in a Walmart with a fake gun in a fake gun aisle.

And keep in mind, I give my greatest respect to law enforcement (hell, one is my good friend and fellow UrbanOhio Admin).  I just think your specific incident in OTR is perhaps clouding your judgment in the grand scheme of things.

I really do hope you're right, but anecdotally from conversations I've had with many officers over the last few years they're certainly not feeling the love from the community.  They're feeling like there is a target on their back and that every arrest they make opens them up to frivolous lawsuits.

Which is a shame as community policing should be second nature with OTR's community and the police.
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Online Hts121

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Re: Police Use of Force
« Reply #1446 on: May 05, 2017, 02:29:11 PM »
I really do hope you're right, but anecdotally from conversations I've had with many officers over the last few years they're certainly not feeling the love from the community.  They're feeling like there is a target on their back and that every arrest they make opens them up to frivolous lawsuits.

You can walk outside and open yourself up to a frivolous lawsuit.  What I can tell you is that doctors, lawyers, and other professionals WISH they had the same civil suit immunity granted to cops.  You can't sue a cop for simple negligence.  And, even when you can state a viable claim against them, they are provided a free defense either through their employer (often including mandatory indemnification) or their union.

I can certainly understand the feeling cops have of being subjected to 'prejudice' for wearing blue.  But instead of refusing to do their jobs, it might be better to figure out the root causes of those feelings.  It's a circular phenomenon, as those who pre-judge the police and being pre-judged far too often by police.
« Last Edit: May 05, 2017, 02:30:12 PM by Hts121 »
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Offline down4cle

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Re: Police Use of Force
« Reply #1447 on: May 05, 2017, 02:34:24 PM »
^ I think part of the problem is that there are some bad apples in police departments that get protected by people like Loomis.  I have many family members that work in law enforcement and they often tell me that there are often too many hot heads in police departments.  I think they should clean up their own houses and "public perception" may change.

Offline Cleburger

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Re: Police Use of Force
« Reply #1448 on: May 05, 2017, 03:00:17 PM »
^ I think part of the problem is that there are some bad apples in police departments that get protected by people like Loomis.  I have many family members that work in law enforcement and they often tell me that there are often too many hot heads in police departments.  I think they should clean up their own houses and "public perception" may change.

That's not the union mindset. In many departments they run it like it's the Teamsters, with CPPA a prime example.  Loomis is a wanna-be thug who thrives on having his guys think he is saving their a$$es.
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Online Hts121

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Re: Police Use of Force
« Reply #1449 on: May 05, 2017, 03:15:59 PM »
CPPA is a different animal, not similar to most every other police union.  Most police unions in Ohio are either FOP or OPBA locals.  On top of that, Loomis is a different animal.  He take the divide and conquer route.  He knows playing off of people's fears is the most effective way for him to do his job.  It gets that very vocal Cleveland.com minority in his corner.
« Last Edit: May 05, 2017, 03:16:42 PM by Hts121 »
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Offline Cleburger

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Re: Police Use of Force
« Reply #1450 on: May 30, 2017, 03:11:43 PM »
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Offline surfohio

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Re: Police Use of Force
« Reply #1451 on: June 08, 2017, 01:28:33 AM »
Lakewood police issue statement about lawsuit against officer who broke teen girl's jaw

http://www.cleveland.com/metro/index.ssf/2017/06/lakewood_police_issue_statemen.html#incart_river_home_pop

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Re: Police Use of Force
« Reply #1452 on: June 08, 2017, 10:37:07 PM »
Sweaty Steve Loomis is defending the fired Tamir Rice officer if anyone is interested.

https://www.facebook.com/WKYC.Channel3/videos/vb.30116744273/10155506124464274/?type=2&theater&notif_t=live_video&notif_id=1496171107268575

That's his job.   It's not all that different from being a defense lawyer.
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Offline down4cle

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Re: Police Use of Force
« Reply #1453 on: June 08, 2017, 10:41:25 PM »
It's not really his job to defend people that screwed up.  He is supposed to protect the rank and file from wrongful punishments.
« Last Edit: June 08, 2017, 10:41:48 PM by down4cle »

Offline E Rocc

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Re: Police Use of Force
« Reply #1454 on: June 08, 2017, 10:46:36 PM »
It's not really his job to defend people that screwed up.  He is supposed to protect the rank and file from wrongful punishments.

It kind of is his job to defend members, no different from a private sector shop steward.
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Offline down4cle

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Re: Police Use of Force
« Reply #1455 on: June 08, 2017, 10:56:06 PM »
They don't defend screw ups. It's not their job to do so. 

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Re: Police Use of Force
« Reply #1456 on: June 09, 2017, 11:54:56 AM »
They don't defend screw ups. It's not their job to do so. 

Actually they do, which is the main reason I cite for the diminishing role of unions.   Its one thing to defend workers from accusations.  It's another thing to defend a member for any reason.   My uncle used to be a steward at Goodyear and told me stories of defending guys for being drunk on the job, not showing up for a week or stealing tools.   He even had a guy who was caught purposely plugging toilets.   These are guys that need to be replaced with union members who want to earn a great wage and benefits---not shirk the system.

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Offline down4cle

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Re: Police Use of Force
« Reply #1457 on: June 09, 2017, 11:57:24 AM »
^ I guess I should say that they do it in practice but it is not actually their job.  Their job is to protect workers but not defend blatant violations.

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Re: Police Use of Force
« Reply #1458 on: June 09, 2017, 12:12:18 PM »
^ I guess I should say that they do it in practice but it is not actually their job.  Their job is to protect workers but not defend blatant violations.

Ideally that would be the case, and sometimes it's reality.   But most unions would say that just like the most blatant criminal deserves a defense lawyer, the biggest f-up who's a member in good standing deserves representation.  Otherwise they end up in the position of judging their own and they would like to avoid that, at least publicly.
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Offline E Rocc

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Re: Police Use of Force
« Reply #1459 on: June 09, 2017, 12:14:52 PM »
http://fox2now.com/2017/06/07/police-suspect-shot-after-exchange-of-gunfire-with-swat-team-in-south-st-louis/

Here's some profound stupidity, there were actually protestors blocking streets over this.  One particularly obnoxious one got knocked down by a car.
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Re: Police Use of Force
« Reply #1460 on: June 09, 2017, 01:12:54 PM »
Unions have a duty of fair representation.  This is not comparable to the duty of zealous representation owed by an attorney, although some similarities may be drawn.  There are indeed offenses a union will not defend.  A lot of CBAs do not allow an individual employee to take a grievance to arbitration for final resolution.  In such cases, that notice must be provided by the Union.  There are many grievances which, despite the employee's desires, the union refuses to take to arbitration.  But what can happen is that the Union assigns its rights to do so to the member, who then hires his/her own representation (usually a lawyer) at his/her own expense.  Specific to police use of force cases, when criminal charges are brought, sometimes the Union foots the legal fees, sometimes it doesn't.  There is a judgment call made through the Union's internal process, normally a vote by the executive board.

This specific case is one in which I would've been surprised if the Union did not push it through to arbitration.  It wasn't an open and shut case, no matter how bad the video appeared.  There were several independent errors made.  The dispatcher did an awful job of relaying the call to the responding officers (providing a perfect example of why civilian dispatch units are a terrible idea).  The officer driving the car did not maintain a safe distance from the "threat".  And, of course, the officer who discharged his weapon perhaps did so without an objective fear that he was in danger of serious bodily injury.  The guy may be guilty, but he deserved a defense to the administrative charges.  No one is accusing him of doing this with malicious intent, which is where I would think the line would/should be drawn.   
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Offline E Rocc

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Re: Police Use of Force
« Reply #1461 on: June 09, 2017, 07:51:58 PM »
Unions have a duty of fair representation.  This is not comparable to the duty of zealous representation owed by an attorney, although some similarities may be drawn.  There are indeed offenses a union will not defend.  A lot of CBAs do not allow an individual employee to take a grievance to arbitration for final resolution.  In such cases, that notice must be provided by the Union.  There are many grievances which, despite the employee's desires, the union refuses to take to arbitration.  But what can happen is that the Union assigns its rights to do so to the member, who then hires his/her own representation (usually a lawyer) at his/her own expense.  Specific to police use of force cases, when criminal charges are brought, sometimes the Union foots the legal fees, sometimes it doesn't.  There is a judgment call made through the Union's internal process, normally a vote by the executive board.

This specific case is one in which I would've been surprised if the Union did not push it through to arbitration.  It wasn't an open and shut case, no matter how bad the video appeared.  There were several independent errors made.  The dispatcher did an awful job of relaying the call to the responding officers (providing a perfect example of why civilian dispatch units are a terrible idea).  The officer driving the car did not maintain a safe distance from the "threat".  And, of course, the officer who discharged his weapon perhaps did so without an objective fear that he was in danger of serious bodily injury.  The guy may be guilty, but he deserved a defense to the administrative charges.  No one is accusing him of doing this with malicious intent, which is where I would think the line would/should be drawn.   

The "fair representation" duty is true legally, though the actual line is going to be where the members want it.  That's how Loomis got returned to his position.  He's seen as more zealous.  And as you say, this case had a lot of nuance.

Police unions are why I ended up opposing SB5.  In a city where there are politicians quite willing to push cops under the bus, they're the only ones that can be trusted to stick up for them.
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Online Hts121

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Re: Police Use of Force
« Reply #1462 on: June 10, 2017, 09:13:17 AM »
Police unions are needed in every major city, no matter how you perceive the leadership.  Same with Fire unions.  Too much turnover in leadership.  The CBA is needed to set some parameters on how much can radically/drastically change overnight. 
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Offline E Rocc

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Re: Police Use of Force
« Reply #1463 on: June 10, 2017, 05:29:16 PM »
Police unions are needed in every major city, no matter how you perceive the leadership.  Same with Fire unions.  Too much turnover in leadership.  The CBA is needed to set some parameters on how much can radically/drastically change overnight. 

Unfortunately, we pretty much said the same thing.  Just about all major city have a significant enough constituency that hates the police that some politicians will pander to them.  To the detriment of the officers' safety, in some cases.   Though budgeting is probably a bigger threat to the safety of them and the firemen.   Most of the dangers they face aren't covered by OSHA.
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Re: Police Use of Force
« Reply #1464 on: June 16, 2017, 04:16:16 PM »
http://www.cnn.com/2017/06/16/us/philando-castile-trial-verdict/index.html

Officer who shot Philando Castile found not guilty

Offline Cleburger

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Re: Police Use of Force
« Reply #1465 on: June 16, 2017, 05:05:32 PM »
http://www.cnn.com/2017/06/16/us/philando-castile-trial-verdict/index.html

Officer who shot Philando Castile found not guilty

Still can't believe this one.  I thought it would be a conviction.
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Offline KJP

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Re: Police Use of Force
« Reply #1466 on: June 19, 2017, 08:35:35 PM »
Crystal Johnson‏ @Crystal1Johnson  4h4 hours ago

Do Black Lives Matter? Jury Awards $1.26 Million For Dog Shot, Killed By Police Officer
https://twitter.com/Crystal1Johnson/status/876899826755137537
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Re: Police Use of Force
« Reply #1467 on: July 10, 2017, 01:50:05 PM »
This is insane! Not brand new news but for some reason it came up in my Facebook news feed. Evanston released the footage a few months ago and the lawsuit is still pending. This guy is an engineering doctoral candidate at Northwestern and he was on his way to the Science building when he was pulled over. Since he's black, wearing a hoody and was fixing his car at night, some stupid woman called the police because she interpreted the situation as him stealing a car (that turned out to be his.) You can even hear her saying, "I don't mean to racially profile but it looked like he was breaking into the car." Dead giveaway right there, that the woman is just as suspect as the alleged criminal and that's something that needs to be relayed to the police asap. She even went as far as to follow his car and give the police updates on where he was going so they could chase after him!

It's amazing, the tactics cops use to justify police brutality. If you don't get down on the ground within one second, they're allowed to tackle you to the ground because you 'didn't comply.' Then, once a gang of officers come over start hitting you, any kind of reaction to being beaten can be interpreted as resisting arrest. The camera can't really catch what the victim is doing in response to being hit because there's so many officers huddled around, kicking and punching. They start to yell "stop resisting arrest" to cover their tracks, as if that's proof of resisting. Evanston's police department said they did NOTHING wrong and strictly followed procedure! Apparently, that includes an officer on tape, cursing at him and letting him know that he's lucky he didn't shoot him. Also, their desperate attempts to get him on absolutely anything. I looked into it and they're considering changing their standard procedure but in multiple articles, I didn't hear anything about any officers being fired or even reprimanded.



Police brutality is nothing new but another thing there needs to be a discussion about is the ridiculous 911 calls people make that are based on nothing more than racial profiling. People who call ridiculous stuff in, should be held accountable. It wastes every ones time, it's a waste of money, it's abuse of an emergency service that needs to be reserved for real emergencies and it can result in people getting injured or killed for no reason. I read an article about how 911 operators everywhere have to deal with phone calls from racist or ignorant people who see a black person walking down their street in their white community and get scared so they call 911. Then, when the operator asks them what the person was doing, they just say that said person looks suspicious and mention their race. When the operators point out that they can't arrest someone for being black, then the caller starts exaggerating the situation. They might say something like, "It looked like he was weilding a gun" to make their own story seem less ridiculous and actually get a cop on the scene.
« Last Edit: July 10, 2017, 01:53:02 PM by David »
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Re: Police Use of Force
« Reply #1468 on: July 10, 2017, 02:06:37 PM »
^One issue I perceive is the increasing civilianization of dispatch centers.  There is value to having real police officers do dispatch.  The information relayed is too important to not have professionals in charge of doing that.  The Tamir Rice incident is one example where the dispatcher was as much at fault, if not more so, than the cops.  Cities are civilianizing the dispatch center because it saves money, but the dangers of doing so don't justify the cost savings IMO.  And it is not just Police, but Fire as well..... for both medical and structural fire calls it can save lives to have people who know what they are doing taking the calls. 
« Last Edit: July 10, 2017, 04:52:10 PM by Hts121 »
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Re: Police Use of Force
« Reply #1469 on: July 10, 2017, 04:07:29 PM »
Why can't police who are sitting idle in their cars with nothing to do, handle the calls? Now that I've thought about it, the calls could easily get routed from the 911 operator to officers through an app using GPS that would effectively hand the conversation over to nearby idle officers who aren't busy and are able to respond to calls. The officers could effectively and safely talk directly to the caller while they're en route thanks to Blue Tooth! Relayed information in any situation in life is never as effective but like you said, it's of particular importance to talk directly to trained professionals in potential emergency situations.

I told you all about my old boss who had a second job as a Cleveland Police Officer. She got paid $22 an hour to sit in her cruiser all night and play on Facebook. THAT is a huge waste of money. $22 an hour isn't some astronomical wage but it's a relatively nice, livable wage (and it definitely is a nice wage in Cleveland.) It has to be much higher than what a local 911 operator makes. I'd call her all the time to discuss business while she was 'patrolling' and I'd always apologize for bothering her on her shift but she'd always respond by telling me it's no problem at all, that she was bored anyway and she's just sitting in her cruiser playing with her phone. She was trained in SWAT, hostage negotiation and seriously countless other bad-@ss specialties but it seemed that literally most of her shifts consisted of just sitting in a cruiser with nothing to do.

Another thing that I think is worth mentioning is that it is BS, how it actually requires a DEATH before departments in the next highest level of government take over and investigate cases where the officer is accused of police brutality in any given municipality. In those cases where death actually occurred, the county investigates the city's police department, the state investigates the county Sherriff, the federal government investigates the State Troopers. Outside of death, those cases are simply left to Internal Affairs which exists within the same Department where the BS occurred and every time I read stories like the one I mentioned above, Internal Affairs along with the highest ranking officer who speaks at the press conference, almost always defends the accused officer and their actions, to no end. Of course they do! Why wouldn't you defend your coworkers? Lets be real... You can reasonably expect camaraderie or fraternity within a city's Division, even between those who do 'field work' and those in administration. You can expect them to look out for each other. That goes without the fact that it's well known that police officers have a particularly strong culture of brotherhood/fraternity and are expected to defend each other's actions/judgement. Officers who really have a good sense of decency and adhere to what is universally accepted as being right and wrong are put in an awkward position when they see their partner abusing their power.  In the case of Evanston, the guy put in that awkward position was definitely the black sergeant who became the spokesman and who I'm sure the rest relied on to help legitimize their actions.
« Last Edit: July 10, 2017, 05:43:07 PM by David »
Modern architects recognize 300 masterpieces but ignore the other 30 million buildings that have ruined the world. - Andres Duany

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