Author Topic: Police Use of Force  (Read 104365 times)

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Offline bfwissel

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Re: Police Use of Force
« Reply #1435 on: May 05, 2017, 11:27:04 AM »
When the suspect of a crime has a long history of committing offenses against others (i.e. he/she is a convicted criminal) yet the decorated officer who has dedicated themselves to public service is assumed by default to be the offending party that is a problem.  I'm not against holding officers to account for bad behavior.  It's just that we've gotten to the point of just assuming every officer who is doing their job serving the community is abusing their power based on the word of individuals who have spent their lives hurting others.  That is an extremely dangerous position to be in and empowers criminals to continue to take advantage of others.
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Online down4cle

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Re: Police Use of Force
« Reply #1436 on: May 05, 2017, 11:28:00 AM »
^ Lot's of judgement in that post.  There is no use responding to you anymore. 

Offline surfohio

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Re: Police Use of Force
« Reply #1437 on: May 05, 2017, 11:29:22 AM »
When people make the bad guys the heroes and good guys the villains by default society as a whole suffers.

If only it were true, that every single police officer was qualified, honest, law abiding and heroic, well we wouldn't even be having this discussion. 

Online down4cle

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Re: Police Use of Force
« Reply #1438 on: May 05, 2017, 11:30:36 AM »
Every person the police encounter is a hardened criminal and every officer is a decorated veteran who helps get kittens out of trees.  I just can't...

Offline bfwissel

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Re: Police Use of Force
« Reply #1439 on: May 05, 2017, 11:32:26 AM »
Every person the police encounter is a hardened criminal and every officer is a decorated veteran who helps get kittens out of trees.  I just can't...

If you bothered to read my post I said it shouldn't be the default to assume the suspect is innocent and that the police officer is in the wrong.  I suggest you try reading my post next time before responding with drivel.
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Online down4cle

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Re: Police Use of Force
« Reply #1440 on: May 05, 2017, 11:34:05 AM »
When the suspect of a crime has a long history of committing offenses against others (i.e. he/she is a convicted criminal) yet the decorated officer who has dedicated themselves to public service is assumed by default to be the offending party that is a problem.  I'm not against holding officers to account for bad behavior.  It's just that we've gotten to the point of just assuming every officer who is doing their job serving the community is abusing their power based on the word of individuals who have spent their lives hurting others.  That is an extremely dangerous position to be in and empowers criminals to continue to take advantage of others.

Every person the police encounter is a hardened criminal and every officer is a decorated veteran who helps get kittens out of trees.  I just can't...

If you bothered to read my post I said it shouldn't be the default to assume the suspect is innocent and that the police officer is in the wrong.  I suggest you try reading my post next time before responding with drivel.

Offline ColDayMan

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Re: Police Use of Force
« Reply #1441 on: May 05, 2017, 11:36:14 AM »
It's just that we've gotten to the point of just assuming every officer who is doing their job serving the community is abusing their power based on the word of individuals who have spent their lives hurting others.

I don't think we've gotten to that point, at all.  I think police officers are still very much respected overall and suspects are still "guilty before innocent."  Look at the countless media examples of suspects that were frowned upon for selling cigarettes in Staten Island or guy walking in a Walmart with a fake gun in a fake gun aisle.

And keep in mind, I give my greatest respect to law enforcement (hell, one is my good friend and fellow UrbanOhio Admin).  I just think your specific incident in OTR is perhaps clouding your judgment in the grand scheme of things.
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Offline Hts121

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Re: Police Use of Force
« Reply #1442 on: May 05, 2017, 11:38:51 AM »
When the suspect of a crime has a long history of committing offenses against others (i.e. he/she is a convicted criminal) yet the decorated officer who has dedicated themselves to public service is assumed by default to be the offending party that is a problem.  I'm not against holding officers to account for bad behavior.  It's just that we've gotten to the point of just assuming every officer who is doing their job serving the community is abusing their power based on the word of individuals who have spent their lives hurting others.  That is an extremely dangerous position to be in and empowers criminals to continue to take advantage of others.

I respect your opinion, but this is very far from reality.  I can't think of one example of a suspect with a long history of convictions who was given any presumption over a decorated officer based solely on the word of that type of suspect.  The suspect should be accorded the presumption of innocence for his/her alleged crime, although we know that doesn't always happen..... ESPECIALLY in the "court of public opinion".  The officer should be accorded the presumption that his/her behavior was lawful, and in 99.9% of police encounters that is exactly what happens.  But what is going on in the exceptions nowadays is that the officer's conduct is being captured on video and that video, sometimes lacking the proper context, captures some level of wrongdoing (perhaps not criminal wrongdoing).  Even with that video, the officers are still accorded more of a presumption than, say, a lifelong criminal caught on camera robbing someone on the street.
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Offline bfwissel

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Re: Police Use of Force
« Reply #1443 on: May 05, 2017, 11:41:39 AM »
It's just that we've gotten to the point of just assuming every officer who is doing their job serving the community is abusing their power based on the word of individuals who have spent their lives hurting others.

I don't think we've gotten to that point, at all.  I think police officers are still very much respected overall and suspects are still "guilty before innocent."  Look at the countless media examples of suspects that were frowned upon for selling cigarettes in Staten Island or guy walking in a Walmart with a fake gun in a fake gun aisle.

And keep in mind, I give my greatest respect to law enforcement (hell, one is my good friend and fellow UrbanOhio Admin).  I just think your specific incident in OTR is perhaps clouding your judgment in the grand scheme of things.

I really do hope you're right, but anecdotally from conversations I've had with many officers over the last few years they're certainly not feeling the love from the community.  They're feeling like there is a target on their back and that every arrest they make opens them up to frivolous lawsuits.
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Offline Cleburger

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Re: Police Use of Force
« Reply #1444 on: May 05, 2017, 11:42:49 AM »
Whatever your opinion, this cop in Dallas needs to be tried.  He fired a high-powered rifle in the middle of a suburban neighborhood into a car full of teenagers driving away.  That is beyond reckless.
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Offline ColDayMan

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Re: Police Use of Force
« Reply #1445 on: May 05, 2017, 11:45:10 AM »
It's just that we've gotten to the point of just assuming every officer who is doing their job serving the community is abusing their power based on the word of individuals who have spent their lives hurting others.

I don't think we've gotten to that point, at all.  I think police officers are still very much respected overall and suspects are still "guilty before innocent."  Look at the countless media examples of suspects that were frowned upon for selling cigarettes in Staten Island or guy walking in a Walmart with a fake gun in a fake gun aisle.

And keep in mind, I give my greatest respect to law enforcement (hell, one is my good friend and fellow UrbanOhio Admin).  I just think your specific incident in OTR is perhaps clouding your judgment in the grand scheme of things.

I really do hope you're right, but anecdotally from conversations I've had with many officers over the last few years they're certainly not feeling the love from the community.  They're feeling like there is a target on their back and that every arrest they make opens them up to frivolous lawsuits.

Which is a shame as community policing should be second nature with OTR's community and the police.
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Offline Hts121

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Re: Police Use of Force
« Reply #1446 on: May 05, 2017, 02:29:11 PM »
I really do hope you're right, but anecdotally from conversations I've had with many officers over the last few years they're certainly not feeling the love from the community.  They're feeling like there is a target on their back and that every arrest they make opens them up to frivolous lawsuits.

You can walk outside and open yourself up to a frivolous lawsuit.  What I can tell you is that doctors, lawyers, and other professionals WISH they had the same civil suit immunity granted to cops.  You can't sue a cop for simple negligence.  And, even when you can state a viable claim against them, they are provided a free defense either through their employer (often including mandatory indemnification) or their union.

I can certainly understand the feeling cops have of being subjected to 'prejudice' for wearing blue.  But instead of refusing to do their jobs, it might be better to figure out the root causes of those feelings.  It's a circular phenomenon, as those who pre-judge the police and being pre-judged far too often by police.
« Last Edit: May 05, 2017, 02:30:12 PM by Hts121 »
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Online down4cle

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Re: Police Use of Force
« Reply #1447 on: May 05, 2017, 02:34:24 PM »
^ I think part of the problem is that there are some bad apples in police departments that get protected by people like Loomis.  I have many family members that work in law enforcement and they often tell me that there are often too many hot heads in police departments.  I think they should clean up their own houses and "public perception" may change.

Offline Cleburger

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Re: Police Use of Force
« Reply #1448 on: May 05, 2017, 03:00:17 PM »
^ I think part of the problem is that there are some bad apples in police departments that get protected by people like Loomis.  I have many family members that work in law enforcement and they often tell me that there are often too many hot heads in police departments.  I think they should clean up their own houses and "public perception" may change.

That's not the union mindset. In many departments they run it like it's the Teamsters, with CPPA a prime example.  Loomis is a wanna-be thug who thrives on having his guys think he is saving their a$$es.
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Offline Hts121

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Re: Police Use of Force
« Reply #1449 on: May 05, 2017, 03:15:59 PM »
CPPA is a different animal, not similar to most every other police union.  Most police unions in Ohio are either FOP or OPBA locals.  On top of that, Loomis is a different animal.  He take the divide and conquer route.  He knows playing off of people's fears is the most effective way for him to do his job.  It gets that very vocal Cleveland.com minority in his corner.
« Last Edit: May 05, 2017, 03:16:42 PM by Hts121 »
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Offline Cleburger

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Re: Police Use of Force
« Reply #1450 on: May 30, 2017, 03:11:43 PM »
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Offline surfohio

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Re: Police Use of Force
« Reply #1451 on: June 08, 2017, 01:28:33 AM »
Lakewood police issue statement about lawsuit against officer who broke teen girl's jaw

http://www.cleveland.com/metro/index.ssf/2017/06/lakewood_police_issue_statemen.html#incart_river_home_pop

Offline E Rocc

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Re: Police Use of Force
« Reply #1452 on: June 08, 2017, 10:37:07 PM »
Sweaty Steve Loomis is defending the fired Tamir Rice officer if anyone is interested.

https://www.facebook.com/WKYC.Channel3/videos/vb.30116744273/10155506124464274/?type=2&theater&notif_t=live_video&notif_id=1496171107268575

That's his job.   It's not all that different from being a defense lawyer.
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Online down4cle

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Re: Police Use of Force
« Reply #1453 on: June 08, 2017, 10:41:25 PM »
It's not really his job to defend people that screwed up.  He is supposed to protect the rank and file from wrongful punishments.
« Last Edit: June 08, 2017, 10:41:48 PM by down4cle »

Offline E Rocc

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Re: Police Use of Force
« Reply #1454 on: June 08, 2017, 10:46:36 PM »
It's not really his job to defend people that screwed up.  He is supposed to protect the rank and file from wrongful punishments.

It kind of is his job to defend members, no different from a private sector shop steward.
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Online down4cle

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Re: Police Use of Force
« Reply #1455 on: June 08, 2017, 10:56:06 PM »
They don't defend screw ups. It's not their job to do so. 

Offline Cleburger

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Re: Police Use of Force
« Reply #1456 on: June 09, 2017, 11:54:56 AM »
They don't defend screw ups. It's not their job to do so. 

Actually they do, which is the main reason I cite for the diminishing role of unions.   Its one thing to defend workers from accusations.  It's another thing to defend a member for any reason.   My uncle used to be a steward at Goodyear and told me stories of defending guys for being drunk on the job, not showing up for a week or stealing tools.   He even had a guy who was caught purposely plugging toilets.   These are guys that need to be replaced with union members who want to earn a great wage and benefits---not shirk the system.

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Online down4cle

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Re: Police Use of Force
« Reply #1457 on: June 09, 2017, 11:57:24 AM »
^ I guess I should say that they do it in practice but it is not actually their job.  Their job is to protect workers but not defend blatant violations.

Offline E Rocc

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Re: Police Use of Force
« Reply #1458 on: June 09, 2017, 12:12:18 PM »
^ I guess I should say that they do it in practice but it is not actually their job.  Their job is to protect workers but not defend blatant violations.

Ideally that would be the case, and sometimes it's reality.   But most unions would say that just like the most blatant criminal deserves a defense lawyer, the biggest f-up who's a member in good standing deserves representation.  Otherwise they end up in the position of judging their own and they would like to avoid that, at least publicly.
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Offline E Rocc

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Re: Police Use of Force
« Reply #1459 on: June 09, 2017, 12:14:52 PM »
http://fox2now.com/2017/06/07/police-suspect-shot-after-exchange-of-gunfire-with-swat-team-in-south-st-louis/

Here's some profound stupidity, there were actually protestors blocking streets over this.  One particularly obnoxious one got knocked down by a car.
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Offline Hts121

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Re: Police Use of Force
« Reply #1460 on: June 09, 2017, 01:12:54 PM »
Unions have a duty of fair representation.  This is not comparable to the duty of zealous representation owed by an attorney, although some similarities may be drawn.  There are indeed offenses a union will not defend.  A lot of CBAs do not allow an individual employee to take a grievance to arbitration for final resolution.  In such cases, that notice must be provided by the Union.  There are many grievances which, despite the employee's desires, the union refuses to take to arbitration.  But what can happen is that the Union assigns its rights to do so to the member, who then hires his/her own representation (usually a lawyer) at his/her own expense.  Specific to police use of force cases, when criminal charges are brought, sometimes the Union foots the legal fees, sometimes it doesn't.  There is a judgment call made through the Union's internal process, normally a vote by the executive board.

This specific case is one in which I would've been surprised if the Union did not push it through to arbitration.  It wasn't an open and shut case, no matter how bad the video appeared.  There were several independent errors made.  The dispatcher did an awful job of relaying the call to the responding officers (providing a perfect example of why civilian dispatch units are a terrible idea).  The officer driving the car did not maintain a safe distance from the "threat".  And, of course, the officer who discharged his weapon perhaps did so without an objective fear that he was in danger of serious bodily injury.  The guy may be guilty, but he deserved a defense to the administrative charges.  No one is accusing him of doing this with malicious intent, which is where I would think the line would/should be drawn.   
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Offline E Rocc

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Re: Police Use of Force
« Reply #1461 on: June 09, 2017, 07:51:58 PM »
Unions have a duty of fair representation.  This is not comparable to the duty of zealous representation owed by an attorney, although some similarities may be drawn.  There are indeed offenses a union will not defend.  A lot of CBAs do not allow an individual employee to take a grievance to arbitration for final resolution.  In such cases, that notice must be provided by the Union.  There are many grievances which, despite the employee's desires, the union refuses to take to arbitration.  But what can happen is that the Union assigns its rights to do so to the member, who then hires his/her own representation (usually a lawyer) at his/her own expense.  Specific to police use of force cases, when criminal charges are brought, sometimes the Union foots the legal fees, sometimes it doesn't.  There is a judgment call made through the Union's internal process, normally a vote by the executive board.

This specific case is one in which I would've been surprised if the Union did not push it through to arbitration.  It wasn't an open and shut case, no matter how bad the video appeared.  There were several independent errors made.  The dispatcher did an awful job of relaying the call to the responding officers (providing a perfect example of why civilian dispatch units are a terrible idea).  The officer driving the car did not maintain a safe distance from the "threat".  And, of course, the officer who discharged his weapon perhaps did so without an objective fear that he was in danger of serious bodily injury.  The guy may be guilty, but he deserved a defense to the administrative charges.  No one is accusing him of doing this with malicious intent, which is where I would think the line would/should be drawn.   

The "fair representation" duty is true legally, though the actual line is going to be where the members want it.  That's how Loomis got returned to his position.  He's seen as more zealous.  And as you say, this case had a lot of nuance.

Police unions are why I ended up opposing SB5.  In a city where there are politicians quite willing to push cops under the bus, they're the only ones that can be trusted to stick up for them.
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Offline Hts121

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Re: Police Use of Force
« Reply #1462 on: June 10, 2017, 09:13:17 AM »
Police unions are needed in every major city, no matter how you perceive the leadership.  Same with Fire unions.  Too much turnover in leadership.  The CBA is needed to set some parameters on how much can radically/drastically change overnight. 
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Offline E Rocc

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Re: Police Use of Force
« Reply #1463 on: June 10, 2017, 05:29:16 PM »
Police unions are needed in every major city, no matter how you perceive the leadership.  Same with Fire unions.  Too much turnover in leadership.  The CBA is needed to set some parameters on how much can radically/drastically change overnight. 

Unfortunately, we pretty much said the same thing.  Just about all major city have a significant enough constituency that hates the police that some politicians will pander to them.  To the detriment of the officers' safety, in some cases.   Though budgeting is probably a bigger threat to the safety of them and the firemen.   Most of the dangers they face aren't covered by OSHA.
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Offline DarkandStormy

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Re: Police Use of Force
« Reply #1464 on: June 16, 2017, 04:16:16 PM »
http://www.cnn.com/2017/06/16/us/philando-castile-trial-verdict/index.html

Officer who shot Philando Castile found not guilty

Offline Cleburger

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Re: Police Use of Force
« Reply #1465 on: June 16, 2017, 05:05:32 PM »
http://www.cnn.com/2017/06/16/us/philando-castile-trial-verdict/index.html

Officer who shot Philando Castile found not guilty

Still can't believe this one.  I thought it would be a conviction.
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Offline KJP

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Re: Police Use of Force
« Reply #1466 on: June 19, 2017, 08:35:35 PM »
Crystal Johnson‏ @Crystal1Johnson  4h4 hours ago

Do Black Lives Matter? Jury Awards $1.26 Million For Dog Shot, Killed By Police Officer
https://twitter.com/Crystal1Johnson/status/876899826755137537
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