Author Topic: Cleveland: East Side Neighborhood Development  (Read 127474 times)

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Offline KJP

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Re: Cleveland: East Side Neighborhood Development
« Reply #175 on: December 06, 2012, 04:23:00 PM »
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Re: Cleveland: East Side Neighborhood Development
« Reply #176 on: December 07, 2012, 04:25:18 PM »
looks good! im very glad that area should have some improvements and development on the way... would be a huge step up if even a fraction of that is accomplished.

oh, and i was beginning to wonder if the city even knew what TOD was!

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Re: Cleveland: East Side Neighborhood Development
« Reply #177 on: December 15, 2012, 09:19:06 AM »
Yep, it knows what TOD is. Sadly many properties around Rapid stations are polluted, entangled with liens, or lack subsidies to clean them or make them economical in light of our city's low rental rates (UC and possibly downtown excepted).
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Re: Cleveland: East Side Neighborhood Development
« Reply #178 on: December 15, 2012, 09:28:00 AM »
http://planning.city.cleveland.oh.us/bza/agenda/2012/crr12-31-2012.pdf

Board of Zoning Appeals

December 31, 2012
9:30
Ward 4
Calendar No. 12-208:
3552 East 131st Street
Kenneth Johnson
26 Notices

Cleveland Metropolitan School District, owner, and the City of Cleveland, prospective purchaser, appeal to construct a new fire station on acreage located between Oakfield and Benham Avenues on the west side of East 131st Street in a B1 Two-Family District; subject to the provisions for a Two-Family District under Section 337.03 and by refer-ence, as regulated in a One-Family District, per Section 337.02(f)(2), the proposed build-ing is subject to the review and approval of the Board of Zoning Appeals after public no-tice and hearing, to determine if adequate yard spaces and other safeguards to preserve the character of the neighborhood are provided and if in the judgment of the Board such building and use are appropriately located and designed and will meet a community need without adversely affecting the neighborhood. (Filed 12-4-12)
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Offline KJP

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Re: Cleveland: East Side Neighborhood Development
« Reply #179 on: December 18, 2012, 10:57:26 PM »
Drawings of the above......





This was the site of Charles Dickens Elementary School....



Recently demolished.....
« Last Edit: December 18, 2012, 10:57:55 PM by KJP »
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Offline jjames0408

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Re: Cleveland: East Side Neighborhood Development
« Reply #180 on: January 10, 2013, 10:15:26 PM »
Good news on the eastern front...Cedar Extension on Cedar and E 24th has received funding to be torn down and rebuilt! Heritage View over around Kinsman and E 71 and Bohn Tower downtown are also to get upgraded...

http://www.cleveland.com/metro/index.ssf/2013/01/cmha_awarded_17_million_to_upg.html#incart_river_default

Offline McLovin

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Re: Cleveland: East Side Neighborhood Development
« Reply #181 on: January 11, 2013, 05:08:30 AM »
Good news on the eastern front...Cedar Extension on Cedar and E 24th has received funding to be torn down and rebuilt! Heritage View over around Kinsman and E 71 and Bohn Tower downtown are also to get upgraded...

http://www.cleveland.com/metro/index.ssf/2013/01/cmha_awarded_17_million_to_upg.html#incart_river_default
No it's not it just creates a never ending cycle if we want the surrounding downtown area to thrive and the income level to rise why aren't we building ACTUAL TOWNHOMES! Why does the west side get nice homes while the east gets new projects? I get tired of seeing the same type of "development" occur. It's just like how outside of UC or downtown the largest east side development was a jail.

C'mon now how about equal gentrification on both sides we all know the West side already has more stable neighborhoods that's why they only lost 9% of their pop. while the east side lost 22%. How about building homes/apartments that will attract new people to make things even?

Offline jjames0408

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Re: Cleveland: East Side Neighborhood Development
« Reply #182 on: January 11, 2013, 07:47:24 AM »
There will come a day when the Cleveland market will support "actual townhomes" in that area...now is not the time. There will always be people on public assistance. I would much rather the population be stabilized by tearing down the 1930's projects and replacing them with new buildings. As you can see in the population trends in this specific neighborhood, it has stabilized and is even growing. The reason they focus on the west side is they can make the ROI that they decide is needed. As downtown continues to fill in and Tremont/Ohio City/Detroit Shoreway/Edgewater/University Circle build out, we will see these other neighborhoods take off. We are years away though unless there is some major job growth.

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Re: Cleveland: East Side Neighborhood Development
« Reply #183 on: January 11, 2013, 09:07:31 AM »
No new public housing is being built. This is to modernize/replace what already exists.
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Offline gottaplan

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Re: Cleveland: East Side Neighborhood Development
« Reply #184 on: January 11, 2013, 09:22:07 AM »
No new public housing is being built. This is to modernize/replace what already exists.

Actually what's going back at Cedar Estates will be less dense that what was built in the 1930's.  City Architecture recently did a master plan for this area, I haven't seen it yet though.  The initial goal was to put some market rate apartments mixed in with the subsidized public housing, similar to what's done at Tremont Pointe.  Some thought the area could support it, since it's on the fringe of downtown, sandwiched between CSU & Tri-C.  We'll see.

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Re: Cleveland: East Side Neighborhood Development
« Reply #185 on: January 11, 2013, 09:25:07 AM »
Actually what's going back at Cedar Estates will be less dense that what was built in the 1930's.  City Architecture recently did a master plan for this area, I haven't seen it yet though.  The initial goal was to put some market rate apartments mixed in with the subsidized public housing, similar to what's done at Tremont Pointe.  Some thought the area could support it, since it's on the fringe of downtown, sandwiched between CSU & Tri-C.  We'll see.

Cool. I liked what they did at Tremont Pointe.
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Offline gottaplan

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Re: Cleveland: East Side Neighborhood Development
« Reply #186 on: January 11, 2013, 09:29:40 AM »
C'mon now how about equal gentrification on both sides we all know the West side already has more stable neighborhoods that's why they only lost 9% of their pop. while the east side lost 22%. How about building homes/apartments that will attract new people to make things even?

Who are you directing this message toward?  City leaders?  You think "if they build it, people will come" applies to new construction on the abandoned east side?  East side neighborhoods are so decimated they lack basic demographics to support things like a grocery store or solid neighborhood establishments.  Building some new townhome developments is not going to change this.  Plenty of wasteland on the west side too, check out the Stockyard areas, W25th to W65th south of I-90... 

Good leadership is spending tax dollars in a manner that produces returns.  Some of those east side neighborhoods need to go into the landbank and sit for a decade or so, focus on rejuvenating what areas are already on solid footing and can prosper.  If that's Tremont/Detroit Shoreway/Ohio City and University Circle, so be it.
« Last Edit: January 11, 2013, 09:33:59 AM by gottaplan »

Offline McLovin

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Re: Cleveland: East Side Neighborhood Development
« Reply #187 on: January 11, 2013, 09:34:48 AM »
No new public housing is being built. This is to modernize/replace what already exists.

Actually what's going back at Cedar Estates will be less dense that what was built in the 1930's.  City Architecture recently did a master plan for this area, I haven't seen it yet though.  The initial goal was to put some market rate apartments mixed in with the subsidized public housing, similar to what's done at Tremont Pointe.  Some thought the area could support it, since it's on the fringe of downtown, sandwiched between CSU & Tri-C.  We'll see.
If that's the case then I support it but just having public housing outright is bad in my eyes but that's just me being from the east side and tired of seeing the same old thing over and over. If a different approach like this is happening though I support it

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Re: Cleveland: East Side Neighborhood Development
« Reply #188 on: January 11, 2013, 09:39:20 AM »
Then again, some of those east side areas have become so rural that they're about as close to starting afresh as a developer would be with an exurban development far out in Geauga County or Ashtabula County which also have little supportive infrastructure and services. The only difference is there's a stigma associated with building inside the doughnut hole. So you start by building an oasis with some services available there. Then you build another. And another. And soon you have a viable urban community again.
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Re: Cleveland: East Side Neighborhood Development
« Reply #189 on: January 11, 2013, 09:56:01 AM »
^except the surrounding population is still in decline.  Things need to stabilize a bit before it makes sense to rebuild.  Big picture, the west side areas like Detroit Shoreway & Edgewater are still losing residents, albeit nowhere near as fast as the east side.

The east side has seen a substantial amount of reinvestment too in the last ten years or so.  All the new apartments and single family homes in Hough, all the new single family homes built under Jane Campbell between Central & Community College...

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Re: Cleveland: East Side Neighborhood Development
« Reply #190 on: January 11, 2013, 10:03:47 AM »
^except the surrounding population is still in decline.  Things need to stabilize a bit before it makes sense to rebuild.  Big picture, the west side areas like Detroit Shoreway & Edgewater are still losing residents, albeit nowhere near as fast as the east side.

The east side has seen a substantial amount of reinvestment too in the last ten years or so.  All the new apartments and single family homes in Hough, all the new single family homes built under Jane Campbell between Central & Community College...

And I believe my approach is how you stabilize it -- one small oasis at a time. It's how you defeat the chicken-egg dilemma. Stabilization cannot be done with the existing housing stock, most of which is too far gone to refurbish.
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Re: Cleveland: East Side Neighborhood Development
« Reply #191 on: January 12, 2013, 10:32:33 AM »
^except the surrounding population is still in decline.  Things need to stabilize a bit before it makes sense to rebuild.  Big picture, the west side areas like Detroit Shoreway & Edgewater are still losing residents, albeit nowhere near as fast as the east side.

The east side has seen a substantial amount of reinvestment too in the last ten years or so.  All the new apartments and single family homes in Hough, all the new single family homes built under Jane Campbell between Central & Community College...

I mentioned arbor village before, but mclovin seems to think is public housing or that the people who live there are low income. 
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Offline E Rocc

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Re: Cleveland: East Side Neighborhood Development
« Reply #192 on: January 12, 2013, 11:51:24 AM »
Then again, some of those east side areas have become so rural that they're about as close to starting afresh as a developer would be with an exurban development far out in Geauga County or Ashtabula County which also have little supportive infrastructure and services. The only difference is there's a stigma associated with building inside the doughnut hole. So you start by building an oasis with some services available there. Then you build another. And another. And soon you have a viable urban community again.

This is the only way it can work, though "soon" may be a stretch.   One more factor, you have to have the political will to protect and police your oasis aggresively, at times stretching the law vis a vis "loitering" and the like. 

Also, to resist any of the lingering resentment towards "gentrification".  With the exception of Little Italy and possibly Shaker Square and Asiatown, your options over on the east side are "gentrified" and "blighted".
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Offline McLovin

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Re: Cleveland: East Side Neighborhood Development
« Reply #193 on: January 12, 2013, 12:35:43 PM »
^except the surrounding population is still in decline.  Things need to stabilize a bit before it makes sense to rebuild.  Big picture, the west side areas like Detroit Shoreway & Edgewater are still losing residents, albeit nowhere near as fast as the east side.

The east side has seen a substantial amount of reinvestment too in the last ten years or so.  All the new apartments and single family homes in Hough, all the new single family homes built under Jane Campbell between Central & Community College...

I mentioned arbor village before, but mclovin seems to think is public housing or that the people who live there are low income.
Yes I did and after I found out what it really was I took back my statement and got on board with it.

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Re: Cleveland: East Side Neighborhood Development
« Reply #194 on: January 12, 2013, 01:00:47 PM »
^except the surrounding population is still in decline.  Things need to stabilize a bit before it makes sense to rebuild.  Big picture, the west side areas like Detroit Shoreway & Edgewater are still losing residents, albeit nowhere near as fast as the east side.

The east side has seen a substantial amount of reinvestment too in the last ten years or so.  All the new apartments and single family homes in Hough, all the new single family homes built under Jane Campbell between Central & Community College...

I mentioned arbor village before, but mclovin seems to think is public housing or that the people who live there are low income.
Yes I did and after I found out what it really was I took back my statement and got on board with it.

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Offline yanni_gogolak

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Re: Cleveland: East Side Neighborhood Development
« Reply #195 on: January 17, 2013, 11:50:45 AM »
q & a: kevin robinette, architect on imperial ave. memorial project
Douglas J. Guth | Thursday, January 17, 2013

It's been more than three years since the bodies of 11 women were discovered at 12205 Imperial Avenue in Cleveland. The home of convicted serial killer Anthony Sowell has since been demolished, but the empty lot where the property stood is a grim and ugly reminder of the violence that took place there.
 
Over the past year, the Imperial Coalition, a grassroots task force led by religious, city and community leaders, has been working with residents and relatives of victims on ways to reclaim the neighborhood. Talk has centered around the possibility of designing and building an "exterior space" at the Imperial Avenue parcel, an effort assisted by the Cleveland chapter of the American Institute of Architects (AIA).


http://www.freshwatercleveland.com/features/kevinrobinette011713.aspx

Offline inlovewithCLE

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Re: Cleveland: East Side Neighborhood Development
« Reply #196 on: January 17, 2013, 10:29:23 PM »
I still think its patently absurd to essentially say we should abandon the east side for another decade, as if that'll solve the problem magically. Those who know the real history of the city of Cleveland know that abandonment of the east side is one of the reasons the East Side is in the shape that it's in now. I'd agree that there are some East Side areas that are in worse shape than others (Glenville, Kinsman, Central, etc.) and as a result, will take longer to fix. But then there are other neighborhoods on the East Side (South Collinwood, half of Hough, Saint Clair-Superior) that really only need a clear plan and a concentrated effort to redevelop. And there are other neighborhoods (like Euclid Park and East Blvd) that are beaming with potential and can be points of real strength. So not only is the idea to essentially let the East Side rot insulting, but in certain cases, it's unnecessary. I think we cannot forget that we are talking about real people here. Real people live in these neighborhoods. Someone mentioned about how some in Cleveland are suspicious of gentrification, but this is why. People know when you don't give a damn about them, and they respond in kind. And from a couple of the commenters here, it sure seemed like that's the attitude. This is why native Clevelanders don't trust redevelopment supporters like us.

Offline KJP

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Re: Cleveland: East Side Neighborhood Development
« Reply #197 on: January 17, 2013, 10:56:45 PM »
This is the only way it can work, though "soon" may be a stretch.   One more factor, you have to have the political will to protect and police your oasis aggresively, at times stretching the law vis a vis "loitering" and the like. 

Also, to resist any of the lingering resentment towards "gentrification".  With the exception of Little Italy and possibly Shaker Square and Asiatown, your options over on the east side are "gentrified" and "blighted".


Unless the new and old property owners agree to assess a fee on themselves for localized security, cops walking the beat, trash pickup/beautification, etc. as has been done in Ohio City, Gordon Square, Kamms Corners, UC, Shaker Square and other non-downtown neighborhoods. Each oasis can be managed hyper-locally or if there is enough of a critical mass, then the CDC could oversee it.

Those who know the real history of the city of Cleveland know that abandonment of the east side is one of the reasons the East Side is in the shape that it's in now.

And those who know the history of urban policies by the State of Ohio over the past 50 years or so know that a neighborhood often has to die (or at least go on life support) before it can be revitalized. Only then can you tap funding resources to start over. In Ohio, no property can compete with a large/clean/green/lien-free piece of land at the urban fringe -- unless it is in the urban core. So in Ohio, a neighborhood has to die, have its obsolete/decayed structures be demolished, the vacated lands cleaned by nature or man, all the liens removed, the multitude of small properties assembled into much-larger properties until they are ready to compete with developable properties that exist at urban fringe.

Some neighborhoods can be saved before they fail, or at least their decline slowed way down by keeping the housing stock and commercial districts fresh and physically competitive. But until we stop dragging the urban fringe farther and farther out from the geographic center of metro areas that haven't grown in population in 50 years, we're just forcing the chairs to move around on the deck of a motionless ship.
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Offline inlovewithCLE

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Re: Cleveland: East Side Neighborhood Development
« Reply #198 on: January 18, 2013, 12:58:59 AM »
This is the only way it can work, though "soon" may be a stretch.   One more factor, you have to have the political will to protect and police your oasis aggresively, at times stretching the law vis a vis "loitering" and the like. 

Also, to resist any of the lingering resentment towards "gentrification".  With the exception of Little Italy and possibly Shaker Square and Asiatown, your options over on the east side are "gentrified" and "blighted".


Unless the new and old property owners agree to assess a fee on themselves for localized security, cops walking the beat, trash pickup/beautification, etc. as has been done in Ohio City, Gordon Square, Kamms Corners, UC, Shaker Square and other non-downtown neighborhoods. Each oasis can be managed hyper-locally or if there is enough of a critical mass, then the CDC could oversee it.

Those who know the real history of the city of Cleveland know that abandonment of the east side is one of the reasons the East Side is in the shape that it's in now.

And those who know the history of urban policies by the State of Ohio over the past 50 years or so know that a neighborhood often has to die (or at least go on life support) before it can be revitalized. Only then can you tap funding resources to start over. In Ohio, no property can compete with a large/clean/green/lien-free piece of land at the urban fringe -- unless it is in the urban core. So in Ohio, a neighborhood has to die, have its obsolete/decayed structures be demolished, the vacated lands cleaned by nature or man, all the liens removed, the multitude of small properties assembled into much-larger properties until they are ready to compete with developable properties that exist at urban fringe.

Some neighborhoods can be saved before they fail, or at least their decline slowed way down by keeping the housing stock and commercial districts fresh and physically competitive. But until we stop dragging the urban fringe farther and farther out from the geographic center of metro areas that haven't grown in population in 50 years, we're just forcing the chairs to move around on the deck of a motionless ship.

I don't disagree with anything you said. In fact, something you touched on is part of my point. The east side, by and large, IS on life support already. That process you talked about has already taken place in most of the east side. Collinwood is really one of the only somewhat stable neighborhoods on the east side (not counting University Circle). Now is the time to REBUILD, not to be content with continued decline in perpetuity.

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Re: Cleveland: East Side Neighborhood Development
« Reply #199 on: January 18, 2013, 01:02:42 AM »
And waiting for Columbus to make things easier for us isn't the answer either. I don't believe (and I'm not sure most believe either) that we've done all we can to stabilize the east side neighborhoods that can be stabilized. In fact, I'm sure of it. If that wasn't the case, then I'd be more inclined to agree that our hands are tied. But I don't believe that's the case, not by a long shot.

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Re: Cleveland: East Side Neighborhood Development
« Reply #200 on: January 18, 2013, 05:47:36 AM »
And those who know the history of urban policies by the State of Ohio over the past 50 years or so know that a neighborhood often has to die (or at least go on life support) before it can be revitalized. Only then can you tap funding resources to start over. In Ohio, no property can compete with a large/clean/green/lien-free piece of land at the urban fringe -- unless it is in the urban core. So in Ohio, a neighborhood has to die, have its obsolete/decayed structures be demolished, the vacated lands cleaned by nature or man, all the liens removed, the multitude of small properties assembled into much-larger properties until they are ready to compete with developable properties that exist at urban fringe.

Some neighborhoods can be saved before they fail, or at least their decline slowed way down by keeping the housing stock and commercial districts fresh and physically competitive. But until we stop dragging the urban fringe farther and farther out from the geographic center of metro areas that haven't grown in population in 50 years, we're just forcing the chairs to move around on the deck of a motionless ship.

I definitely agree with your "die before it can be saved" observation, though I don't think that's unique to Ohio.  We've certainly seen it throughout the years in Greater Cleveland. 

I don't think it's a function of policy as much as it is migration patterns, though.  The most irresponsible residential population is also the most mobile, and once neighborhoods start to decline, longer term residents move out and they move in.  This accelerates the decline.   Once it's bad enough, they move on and restoration can begin.

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Offline MayDay

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Re: Cleveland: East Side Neighborhood Development
« Reply #201 on: January 18, 2013, 06:19:19 AM »
"we are talking about real people here. Real people live in these neighborhoods.

We're also talking about real financing would be needed for any large scale redevelopment, and real people willing to be 'pioneers'. Until we see that, all this discussion is speculation aaaand not the topic of this thread :-)

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Re: Cleveland: East Side Neighborhood Development
« Reply #202 on: January 18, 2013, 06:41:29 AM »
I still think its patently absurd to essentially say we should abandon the east side for another decade, as if that'll solve the problem magically. Those who know the real history of the city of Cleveland know that abandonment of the east side is one of the reasons the East Side is in the shape that it's in now. I'd agree that there are some East Side areas that are in worse shape than others (Glenville, Kinsman, Central, etc.) and as a result, will take longer to fix. But then there are other neighborhoods on the East Side (South Collinwood, half of Hough, Saint Clair-Superior) that really only need a clear plan and a concentrated effort to redevelop. And there are other neighborhoods (like Euclid Park and East Blvd) that are beaming with potential and can be points of real strength. So not only is the idea to essentially let the East Side rot insulting, but in certain cases, it's unnecessary. I think we cannot forget that we are talking about real people here. Real people live in these neighborhoods. Someone mentioned about how some in Cleveland are suspicious of gentrification, but this is why. People know when you don't give a damn about them, and they respond in kind. And from a couple of the commenters here, it sure seemed like that's the attitude. This is why native Clevelanders don't trust redevelopment supporters like us.
This is the only way it can work, though "soon" may be a stretch.   One more factor, you have to have the political will to protect and police your oasis aggresively, at times stretching the law vis a vis "loitering" and the like. 

Also, to resist any of the lingering resentment towards "gentrification".  With the exception of Little Italy and possibly Shaker Square and Asiatown, your options over on the east side are "gentrified" and "blighted".


Unless the new and old property owners agree to assess a fee on themselves for localized security, cops walking the beat, trash pickup/beautification, etc. as has been done in Ohio City, Gordon Square, Kamms Corners, UC, Shaker Square and other non-downtown neighborhoods. Each oasis can be managed hyper-locally or if there is enough of a critical mass, then the CDC could oversee it.

Those who know the real history of the city of Cleveland know that abandonment of the east side is one of the reasons the East Side is in the shape that it's in now.

And those who know the history of urban policies by the State of Ohio over the past 50 years or so know that a neighborhood often has to die (or at least go on life support) before it can be revitalized. Only then can you tap funding resources to start over. In Ohio, no property can compete with a large/clean/green/lien-free piece of land at the urban fringe -- unless it is in the urban core. So in Ohio, a neighborhood has to die, have its obsolete/decayed structures be demolished, the vacated lands cleaned by nature or man, all the liens removed, the multitude of small properties assembled into much-larger properties until they are ready to compete with developable properties that exist at urban fringe.

Some neighborhoods can be saved before they fail, or at least their decline slowed way down by keeping the housing stock and commercial districts fresh and physically competitive. But until we stop dragging the urban fringe farther and farther out from the geographic center of metro areas that haven't grown in population in 50 years, we're just forcing the chairs to move around on the deck of a motionless ship.

I don't disagree with anything you said. In fact, something you touched on is part of my point. The east side, by and large, IS on life support already. That process you talked about has already taken place in most of the east side. Collinwood is really one of the only somewhat stable neighborhoods on the east side (not counting University Circle). Now is the time to REBUILD, not to be content with continued decline in perpetuity.

As a resident of Cleveland who chose to live in Cleveland I'm going to say, yes the city has problems but some of what you say is......




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Offline inlovewithCLE

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Re: Cleveland: East Side Neighborhood Development
« Reply #203 on: January 18, 2013, 10:38:18 AM »
I still think its patently absurd to essentially say we should abandon the east side for another decade, as if that'll solve the problem magically. Those who know the real history of the city of Cleveland know that abandonment of the east side is one of the reasons the East Side is in the shape that it's in now. I'd agree that there are some East Side areas that are in worse shape than others (Glenville, Kinsman, Central, etc.) and as a result, will take longer to fix. But then there are other neighborhoods on the East Side (South Collinwood, half of Hough, Saint Clair-Superior) that really only need a clear plan and a concentrated effort to redevelop. And there are other neighborhoods (like Euclid Park and East Blvd) that are beaming with potential and can be points of real strength. So not only is the idea to essentially let the East Side rot insulting, but in certain cases, it's unnecessary. I think we cannot forget that we are talking about real people here. Real people live in these neighborhoods. Someone mentioned about how some in Cleveland are suspicious of gentrification, but this is why. People know when you don't give a damn about them, and they respond in kind. And from a couple of the commenters here, it sure seemed like that's the attitude. This is why native Clevelanders don't trust redevelopment supporters like us.
This is the only way it can work, though "soon" may be a stretch.   One more factor, you have to have the political will to protect and police your oasis aggresively, at times stretching the law vis a vis "loitering" and the like. 

Also, to resist any of the lingering resentment towards "gentrification".  With the exception of Little Italy and possibly Shaker Square and Asiatown, your options over on the east side are "gentrified" and "blighted".


Unless the new and old property owners agree to assess a fee on themselves for localized security, cops walking the beat, trash pickup/beautification, etc. as has been done in Ohio City, Gordon Square, Kamms Corners, UC, Shaker Square and other non-downtown neighborhoods. Each oasis can be managed hyper-locally or if there is enough of a critical mass, then the CDC could oversee it.

Those who know the real history of the city of Cleveland know that abandonment of the east side is one of the reasons the East Side is in the shape that it's in now.

And those who know the history of urban policies by the State of Ohio over the past 50 years or so know that a neighborhood often has to die (or at least go on life support) before it can be revitalized. Only then can you tap funding resources to start over. In Ohio, no property can compete with a large/clean/green/lien-free piece of land at the urban fringe -- unless it is in the urban core. So in Ohio, a neighborhood has to die, have its obsolete/decayed structures be demolished, the vacated lands cleaned by nature or man, all the liens removed, the multitude of small properties assembled into much-larger properties until they are ready to compete with developable properties that exist at urban fringe.

Some neighborhoods can be saved before they fail, or at least their decline slowed way down by keeping the housing stock and commercial districts fresh and physically competitive. But until we stop dragging the urban fringe farther and farther out from the geographic center of metro areas that haven't grown in population in 50 years, we're just forcing the chairs to move around on the deck of a motionless ship.

I don't disagree with anything you said. In fact, something you touched on is part of my point. The east side, by and large, IS on life support already. That process you talked about has already taken place in most of the east side. Collinwood is really one of the only somewhat stable neighborhoods on the east side (not counting University Circle). Now is the time to REBUILD, not to be content with continued decline in perpetuity.

As a resident of Cleveland who chose to live in Cleveland I'm going to say, yes the city has problems but some of what you say is......




I'm not particularly sure who you're addressing with this "witty" comment (since I, KJP and E-Rocc was quoted here) but if this is addressed to me, that's cute. Doesn't contribute a damn thing to the conversation, but that's cute. I'm also a resident of the city of Cleveland, BY CHOICE

Anyway, most of the east side HAS decayed already. You've seen the census numbers, right? There's Collinwood, University Circle, Little Italy, Shaker Square and....then what?? Tell me what other legitimately stable or even moderately stable neighborhoods there are on the east side?

Offline inlovewithCLE

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Re: Cleveland: East Side Neighborhood Development
« Reply #204 on: January 18, 2013, 10:40:19 AM »
The point is that it's insulting (and unnecessary) to essentially say "to hell with the east side".

Offline gottaplan

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Re: Cleveland: East Side Neighborhood Development
« Reply #205 on: January 18, 2013, 11:13:04 AM »
The City of Cleveland has some great maps in Community Development & Building Departments that show the city laid out in shaded colors, with shading based on vacant/foreclosed homes, housing stock inventory, population density, etc.  In every case, the difference between the east side & west side is very dramatic.  It's not like the west side is Beverly Hills, but it's on much more stable ground, in terms of retaining & attracting working class families than the east side is.  Exceptions of course being the often mentioned Shaker Square, University Circle, etc

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Re: Cleveland: East Side Neighborhood Development
« Reply #206 on: January 18, 2013, 11:14:59 AM »
^^Did anyone really say anything that approximates that?  I'd guess that the east side has seen just as much public investment and attention as the west side in recent decades.  The difference in condition people observe probably has a lot more to do with the cumulative impact of thousands of individual household and homeowner decisions over the years and more recently, the profit maximizing investment decisions of a small number of developers.  Not to mention, the west side as a whole is itself in pretty steep decline.  Seems much more useful to talk about individual neighborhoods than east vs. west.
« Last Edit: January 18, 2013, 11:17:54 AM by StrapHanger »
"Cleveland, as you see, is not an apple, but a bunch of grapes each of which has its own particular pattern-some large, others small, some round, others long and narrow, some sweet, others sour, some sound, others rotten throughout."  -Howard Whipple Green, 1932

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Re: Cleveland: East Side Neighborhood Development
« Reply #207 on: January 18, 2013, 10:03:55 PM »
Alright folks, this topic is for Eastside development projects, not for general discussion of neighborhood quality, migration patterns or public spending. 

Back on topic!

Offline E Rocc

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Re: Cleveland: East Side Neighborhood Development
« Reply #208 on: January 20, 2013, 08:48:57 PM »
"we are talking about real people here. Real people live in these neighborhoods.

We're also talking about real financing would be needed for any large scale redevelopment, and real people willing to be 'pioneers'. Until we see that, all this discussion is speculation aaaand not the topic of this thread :-)

Exactly.  What I'm really not seeing is the people that are going to be willing to pay "market rates" to live in an area dominated by public housing.  Not when Shaker Square, Tremont, Little Italy, and any of the oases that may spring up as per Ken's plan exist. ....and that's only the alternatives in the city itself.   It's "public housing" in the form of Section 8 that's chasing people out of the inner ring burbs.

It kind of is topical, though.  Thinking too big, or taking on the "they need the help more" approach that the (arguably strawman) do gooders take in "Atlas Shrugged" can divert resources away from the oases of development, and discredit the entire process when they fail.

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Offline MidwestChamp

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Re: Cleveland: East Side Neighborhood Development
« Reply #209 on: January 24, 2013, 09:23:53 AM »
Events that bring people out routinely like this one can transform neighborhoods.  This year I see people starting their day at the West Side Market for local foods and continuing their local buying at the Cleveland Flea.  Lots happening recently in St. Clair Superior / AsiaTown!

http://www.freshwatercleveland.com/devnews/theclevelandflea012413.aspx?utm_source=VerticalResponse&utm_medium=Email&utm_term=from+hillbilly+to+highbrow%2c+the+cleveland+flea+aims+to+launch+a+new+saturday+tradition&utm_content=%7bEmail_Address%7d&utm_campaign=Primed+for+Growth%2c+Built+to+Last

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