Author Topic: Cleveland: Ohio City: Development and News  (Read 978214 times)

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Offline Map Boy

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Re: Cleveland: Ohio City & Market District Developments
« Reply #35 on: March 04, 2005, 08:20:48 PM »
seriously?  i could've sworn there was a public vote on the Euclid proposal...

Offline Punch

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Re: Cleveland: Ohio City & Market District Developments
« Reply #36 on: March 05, 2005, 08:14:49 AM »
^There was a vote in Columbus for a COTA light rail a few years ago
« Last Edit: March 21, 2005, 01:13:22 PM by punch »
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Offline KJP

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Re: Cleveland: Ohio City & Market District Developments
« Reply #37 on: March 05, 2005, 10:19:00 AM »
Seriously. In fact, I'm remembering there wasn't even a vote by NOACA's Governing Board on the Dual Hub project. RTA's board selected a rail option for the Dual Hub in 1994 or 1995, but couldn't get support from NOACA's board to seek federal funding for it (either with or without a board vote). RTA and the city had the local funding needed, so no public vote was required. In November 1995, RTA's board instead went with the busway and, a month later, NOACA's board approved seeking federal funds for it.

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Offline Punch

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Re: Cleveland: Ohio City & Market District Developments
« Reply #38 on: March 05, 2005, 10:32:34 AM »
^I thought Hagan killed the dual Hub subway because of the $1billion price tag. 
Wasn't there talk of dollars spent vs. time improvement being a requirement of federal money?  I thought that is why BRT was chosen, because with all of the problems of the #6, it is still not all that bad.

KJP, I am not looking to stump the expert, just trying to clarify what I had thought was going on. 
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Offline KJP

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Re: Cleveland: Ohio City & Market District Developments
« Reply #39 on: March 05, 2005, 11:01:35 AM »
Hagan was on the NOACA Governing Board at that time. I think he might have been chairman. And the facts you mentioned were reasons why Dual Hub didn't happen.

By the way, one of the reasons why Hagan recently ran for, and got back on the county commissioners is because he wants to shake up NOACA. He has said it has become too stagnant and needs to become a greater catalyst for regional change.

KJP
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Offline Punch

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Re: Cleveland: Ohio City & Market District Developments
« Reply #40 on: March 05, 2005, 11:37:56 AM »
^Thanks  :-)
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Offline Map Boy

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Re: Cleveland: Ohio City & Market District Developments
« Reply #41 on: March 05, 2005, 02:38:54 PM »
KJP, I searched and searched for info to back up my claims, but found nothing!  What I did find was this:

"Section 3035 of ISTEA authorized FTA to enter into a multiyear grant agreement for development of the Dual Hub Corridor, originally considered as a rail link between downtown and University Circle. In November 1995, the GCRTA Board of Trustees selected the ECIP (Euclid Corridor Improvement Project) as the locally preferred alternative (LPA) which included a busway and the rehabilitation and relocation of several existing rapid rail stations. In December 1995, the Northeast Ohio areawide coordinating agency (local metropolitan planning organization) adopted a resolution supporting the ECIP. In mid-1999, GCRTA reconfigured the scope of the ECIP to incorporate only the construction of a busway along Euclid Avenue. The rapid rail elements have been eliminated from the ECIP proposal for Section 5309 New Starts funding."

So, this is pretty much what you told me...It's a good thing there are fact-checkers and experts out there to set the record straight!  This kind of changes my ideas about NOACA too...maybe they do need a little shake-up! 

I know the price tag sounded huge, but there were several contemporary success stories to follow and our proposal, though its price tag was severely reduced, still received a "low" rating for cost effectiveness by the FTA's New Starts program in 2004.  I guess we're lucky that it's going forward at all!

Offline Map Boy

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Re: Cleveland: Ohio City & Market District Developments
« Reply #42 on: March 20, 2005, 10:33:31 PM »
Back on the subject of this project...

While back in Cleve-o a couple weeks ago, I took the Red-Line from W. 25th and got a pretty good view of the east side of this site from the bridge over the Cuyahoga.  I was surprised at how nice the slope looks already.  I'm sure there are improvements needed to make it an accessible city park, but there are already some nice trees and such there and the views must be amazing.  The kicker is that they might have to do some major structural work in order to support the large development at the top of the bluff, so that might knock some of this out.  That would be unfortunate, but still worth it in my eyes.  Anyways, iteresting to see with a new perspective...

Offline KJP

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Re: Cleveland: Ohio City & Market District Developments
« Reply #43 on: March 20, 2005, 11:07:45 PM »
My guess is that, if a large building is to placed at the edge of the hillside, CMHA (or whomever) would have to pour some deep concrete caissons, perhaps to bedrock (200+ feet down) if the building is large enough. The reason is that most hillsides above rivers in Northeast Ohio are supported by shale, which isn't very sturdy. For example, single family condos built next atop the edges of the Rocky River valley had to be placed on new caissons (I don't know how deep).

A condo project in Fairview Park, overlooking the valley, was among those built in this manner. And while the homes sit soundly on the caissons, their decks don't. They've been sliding bit by bit, closer to the valley. One day, Mother Nature will win, as she always does.

We'll see what stabilization efforts are required for the Ohio City project, but it shouldn't affect the appearance of the hillside below it. Although, as I write this, I don't know if CMHA has any plans for the hillside (ie: walking paths, terraced gardens, ski slopes, water slides, hang-gliding ramps, incline railways......).

KJP
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Offline Map Boy

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Re: Cleveland: Ohio City & Market District Developments
« Reply #44 on: March 21, 2005, 01:38:22 PM »
ooooh!  I love inclines!  Really, though, there's nothing cutting off this bend of greenery from the river, where on the other side we've got lots of property issues.  Also, access doesn't look to be too complicated.  From what I've seen in other cities, riverfront parks can be highly successful, especially if they're connected by pedestrian and bike paths to residential areas.  In this case, that would be the West Bank of the Flats and Ohio City.  Imagine this piece connecting someday to an accessible Whiskey Island by a greenway through the West Bank.  And if the Tow Path Trail ever makes it all the way up here, whoo boy!

Offline 3231

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Re: Cleveland: Ohio City & Market District Developments
« Reply #45 on: March 21, 2005, 01:44:43 PM »
From what the Cuyahoga County planners say, they feel pretty good about the towpath connecting near Ohio City in the next 6 years.  Imagine if there was a nice development between 25th and the valley's edge with the tow path passing right by the front steps of some pretty townhomes.

Offline Map Boy

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Re: Cleveland: Ohio City & Market District Developments
« Reply #46 on: March 21, 2005, 01:49:35 PM »
believe me, i've imagined it...

Offline KJP

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Re: Cleveland: Ohio City & Market District Developments
« Reply #47 on: March 23, 2005, 01:41:08 PM »
(ie: walking paths, terraced gardens, ski slopes, water slides, hang-gliding ramps, incline railways......).

BTW, I hope everyone realized that list of items was intended to get more progressively more radical and unpractical as I went along. But based on MGD's response, perhaps I should have put incline railways after terraced gardens! Actually, I think terraced gardens could look pretty stunning from the Red Line, and be practical in stabilizing the hillside.

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Offline X

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Re: Cleveland: Ohio City & Market District Developments
« Reply #48 on: March 23, 2005, 08:25:51 PM »
Aww, and I was hoping to have a water slide right into the Cuyahoga.  And then go hang-gliding.

Offline KJP

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Re: Cleveland: Ohio City & Market District Developments
« Reply #49 on: March 23, 2005, 11:18:49 PM »
Don't let me stop you!

Hey, if that daredevil can get dressed up like Spiderman and climb the exterior of skyscrapers, then any pursuit is possible....as long as getting arrested is the least dangerous outcome.

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Offline X

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Re: Cleveland: Ohio City & Market District Developments
« Reply #50 on: March 23, 2005, 11:28:23 PM »
OK then.  I'll need a bushhog and one hell of a Slip 'N' Slide.

Offline 3231

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Re: Cleveland: Ohio City & Market District Developments
« Reply #51 on: March 23, 2005, 11:51:13 PM »
So, does anyone know about a timeline in regards to the Hope VI Riverview housing project.  So many nice ideas on the Ohio City/Near West website, but when will it happen?

Offline Map Boy

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Re: Cleveland: Ohio City & Market District Developments
« Reply #52 on: March 24, 2005, 12:02:37 AM »
The only timeline I know about is the one concerning actual HOPE VI funding.  That is $8.5 million from the government that has to be used by 2006 (beginning or end, I don't know).  As for a construction timeline or the more realistic question of whether or not they intend to use the money...I've tried to get in touch with the Ohio City Near West Development Corporation and have gotten zero response.  I even tried to get buddy-buddy with them, being a CDC worker myself!  No dice...

Offline 3231

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Re: Cleveland: Ohio City & Market District Developments
« Reply #53 on: March 24, 2005, 09:08:48 AM »
Well, this article says that they should be doing some things this spring/summer.  Hope to see some construction by the time that I move back.  This article is from last Spring.

Developers reveal Riverview Hope VI plans
by Chuck Hoven

The Hope VI Riverview development seeks to dramatically transform the east side of W. 25 th Street from Bridge Avenue to Detroit Avenue .

On Tuesday May 18th, development partners Cuyahoga Metropolitan Housing Authority (CMHA), Ohio City Near West Development Corporation (OCNW) and Washington,D.C.-based Telesis Corporation presented plans for the long-awaited development at a public meeting held in the cafeteria at Riverview Towers , 1725 W. 25 th Street .

The first phase of the development calls for 416 units of new housing, 10,000 square feet of new commercial space, 267 new surface parking spaces and an underground parking garage with 480 parking places. Riverview senior towers with 501 units of housing will be integrated into the site.

Phase I targets the east side of W. 25 from Bridge Avenue to just north of Franklin Avenue . The 12-acre site extends east to Franklin Avenue behind the Riverview towers. As part of the development, W. 25 th Street will be narrowed from Bridge to Detroit to the same width as W. 25 th south of Bridge Ave.

The 416 units of housing will consist of 81 public housing units, 35 affordable housing units and 300 market rate units. William Whitman of Telesis Corporation said that once the development is completed, “You will not be able to tell the market rate from the affordable and public housing units.”

“That’s what nice about this project,” said Laura Noble, acting executive director of OCNW, referring to the plans for people of widely-differing incomes to live side by side. All of the public housing residents will be required to have income below 60% the median family income in Cuyahoga County (currently $36,000 for a family of four). The 35 affordable units and 300 market rate units will range in price from $126,000 to $400,000. The housing units will be composed of one, two, three and four bedroom apartments and condominiums. There will be a condominium association to represent residents and Telesis Corporation or an affiliate management company will manage the entire new development.

CMHA will continue to manage the Riverview Towers . Residents who were displaced when the 135 units of public housing at Riverview were demolished in 2000 to make way for this project will have the first choice to come into the new public housing units being created as part of this project.

The first phase of the project is expected to cost $110 million, including $20 million for the infrastructure and garage; $15.3 million for the public housing units; and $73.5 million for the affordable and market rate housing units. Under CMHA’s Project Area Resident (PAR) program, hiring employment goals include jobs for CMHA residents, according to CMHA Hope VI Coordinator Michael Bowen. Asked whether the developer will work with the local building trades council to provide training that would lead to union apprenticeships and eventually a skilled trade, Telesis Corporation’s Whitman said an employment training program and outreach to the construction trades is “certainly something we have done in the past. It is something we take seriously and hopefully will make happen.” CMHA’s Bowen said one of the reasons Telesis Corp was chosen for this job was their track record in this area.

Plans call for the commercial portion of the development to be on the northeast corner of W. 25 th and Bridge Avenue . It would extend the already existing commercial strip on W. 25 th Street north in front of the south tower of Riverview . Parking spaces would be located behind the retail space in front of the tower in what is now a green space with benches for residents. When residents expressed concern about losing the green space and benches, developers said other public spaces would be created for sitting areas throughout the new development. The plans call for the current turnaround now in front of the south tower to be moved to the front of the north tower. Developers promised to discuss these changes with residents of the towers.

The parking garage will be built under the hillside in the rear of Riverview (between Riverview and Franklin), said Telesis Corporation’s Whitman. Residents will access the garage by means of a new road that will run parallel with Franklin . Whitman says the top fifteen feet of the hill will be removed to add stability to the hill.

Developers hope that Phase I construction will begin in the spring of 2005 and be completed within 5 years. Developers are under pressure to proceed with the housing portion of the development because the $8.5 million in HOPE VI funding targeted for the project’s public housing must be spent by December of 2006.

Members of the Riverview Local Advisory Council, led by President Clara Bell, asked for an opportunity to meet with developers soon to discuss some of their concerns, including proposed changes for the exterior grounds and increasing resident input on maximizing use of first floor community space. A number of residents expressed concern that an effort be made to include restaurants and other commercial ventures that cater more to low-income residents. Residents raised concerns about a proposed joint community center to be shared by current (mostly elderly) residents and the new families. Residents asked that a separate community facility be created for families with children to avoid conflicts with seniors.

Members of the Bridge/Carroll/Jay/Riverview block clubs of OCNW were also in attendance. They asked about when updated plans would be available for the public to view. Developers promised another large public meeting in the fall of this year.

CMHA initially received funding for the Hope VI Riverview and Lakeview proposal in 1996. In 2000, 135 units of public housing at Riverview were demolished to make way for the new development. In 2001 a public charrette was held to allow public participation in the design of the new development. In the interim plans were drawn up by Goody, Clancy & Associates, a Boston-based architecture and planning firm and the new development partnership was formed.

CMHA’s Bowen says there is no current timetable for Phase II. Current plans call for a $70 million-development which would include 266 housing units and a park at the corner of W. 25 th and Detroit . CMHA currently owns all but three parcels in the proposed target area. They are negotiating with Transitional Housing to help find a new home for the facility. The eight units of public housing north of Franklin will be demolished. CMHA’s Bowen says the new housing in this area will include eight units of public housing to replace them.




Offline nsc

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Re: Cleveland: Ohio City & Market District Developments
« Reply #54 on: March 24, 2005, 09:27:17 AM »
I would have to think that people are aprehensive to put affordable housing in an area that is turning into a nice happening spot with yuppies moving in.  I like the developement, but I think you could build 200 high end condo's in this area and have no problem selling them.

Offline KJP

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Re: Cleveland: Ohio City & Market District Developments
« Reply #55 on: March 24, 2005, 09:36:05 AM »
Read the article again. They're planning 300 high-end residences, or 72 percent of the total....


"The 416 units of housing will consist of 81 public housing units, 35 affordable housing units and 300 market rate units."

That's what "market-rate" means. Sometimes people hear about this project, that a public housing entity is pursuing it, and automatically assume it's going to be another public housing project. That's not what CMHA is doing anymore. They realize the folly in building warehouses for poor people and instead need to mix them into a built environment where they can break the cycle of poverty....

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Offline Map Boy

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Re: Cleveland: Ohio City & Market District Developments
« Reply #56 on: March 24, 2005, 12:06:35 PM »
Thank you for clearing that up KJP...I feel like I've been saying this over and over again throughout this thread and that it just hasn't registered! 

This is NOT going to be a public housing project in the traditional/stigmatized sense.  The affordable units will be mixed throughout and will look JUST LIKE the market rate units.  And when the price is between $126k and $400k, we're talking a nice variety with some high-end stuff in there!  Phase II will concentrate even more heavily on he market-rate, to my understanding. 

And think of the park overlooking the valley and downtown and the new retail that will connect the Detroit end of West 25th to the Lorain end...

Offline Punch

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Re: Cleveland: Ohio City & Market District Developments
« Reply #57 on: March 24, 2005, 12:46:04 PM »
Chicago has been real successful in this type of development.  At least that is what I have heard (I aint go no facts)
Also, aren't there set asides in the WHD apartment buildings for low income residents.  (that is how servers get into these places)
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Offline 3231

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Re: Cleveland: Ohio City & Market District Developments
« Reply #58 on: March 24, 2005, 01:49:00 PM »
The Boston group that is doing the planning for this project is the same one that did the Cabrini Green  Here is a link to their site.  There is also some info on the project:

http://www.gcassoc.com/html/market_specialty.asp?pageid=1032

Offline 3231

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Re: Cleveland: Ohio City & Market District Developments
« Reply #59 on: March 24, 2005, 02:20:23 PM »
The same group, Goody Clancy, also designed the new Case dorms.  The website says that Case's plan is to replace all the undergraduate housing in 10 yrs. 

Offline Punch

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Re: Cleveland: Ohio City & Market District Developments
« Reply #60 on: April 26, 2005, 11:27:13 AM »
Some not so good news from today's PD
Unstable land further delays CMHA project
Tuesday, April 26, 2005
Angela D. Chatman
Plain Dealer Reporter
Plans for a multimillion-dollar development behind Riverview Tower will be revised because much of the land where it was to be built is unstable.

The problem will further delay the Cuyahoga Metropolitan Housing Authority project, which faces a deadline for using federal grant money.

A preliminary geotechnical study has found that the hillside stretching from behind the tower on West 25th Street down to Riverbed Road along the Cuyahoga River is shifting.

The study said some sort of stabilization with anchors across the site - for about $15 million - would be needed...

more at: http://www.cleveland.com


« Last Edit: September 09, 2009, 02:09:48 PM by McCleveland »
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Offline Map Boy

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Re: Cleveland: Ohio City & Market District Developments
« Reply #61 on: April 26, 2005, 02:04:35 PM »
ouch...that doesn't sound too good.  that's an extra $15 million to a project that might not justify that.  I guess the worst case scenario is that we'll see less density on the site.  and if they can't build out on the east end of the site, I guess they'd have no choice but to turn it into a big park/promenade along the bluff!  of course I'd rather see the aforementioned public agencies put all the money up for the necessary engineering, but how long would that take to get approved?  probably longer than a year-and-a-half, which would mean we'd lose the HUD $$$...

Offline Punch

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Re: Cleveland: Ohio City & Market District Developments
« Reply #62 on: April 26, 2005, 02:37:48 PM »
There is a church tucked in behind the WSM, maybe the diocese will be interested in selling it and the land?
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Offline nsc

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Re: Cleveland: Ohio City & Market District Developments
« Reply #63 on: April 26, 2005, 03:08:51 PM »
They should probably undercut the slope about 10' and inject lime in it.  Fairly cost effective.  With the density they assume to have here, it would pay off in the long run.  If you can build a shopping center on a sloped landfill (CityView Center in Garfield Heights) I'm sure you can do this.  Believe, this is what I do for a living, and if they cancel the project because of this, it would have never gone in the first place.  There are always soils issues on  sites, especially in the city. 

Offline 3231

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Re: Cleveland: Ohio City & Market District Developments
« Reply #64 on: April 26, 2005, 06:31:18 PM »
Not exactly the news I wanted to hear..

Offline KJP

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Re: Cleveland: Ohio City & Market District Developments
« Reply #65 on: April 27, 2005, 04:54:49 PM »
Can't say I'm surprised by this turn of events....

http://www.urbanohio.com/forum2/index.php?topic=2492.msg26230#msg26230

I feared this would happen. If it wasn't for the short timeline, they could probably find the funds for stabilizing the hillside. Otherwise, CMHA will probably have to scale back the project. No matter what they build, I suspect they'll need some sort of slope stabilization work. Even several small, recently built townhouses in Rocky River, at Wooster and Detroit roads, had to be built on caissons to support their weight. The shale slopes around here just don't make hillside construction, be they of buildings, roads or whatever, very affordable.

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Offline the pope

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Offline KJP

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Re: Cleveland: Ohio City & Market District Developments
« Reply #67 on: August 03, 2005, 08:32:02 AM »
These low-income housing advocates make me mad. I'm sick of them proposing more warehouses for poor people and arguing against private investment in the neighborhood. Un-freaking-believable.

Give them job training and a rent voucher to help them get out of poverty, and bring more market-rate homes to the neighborhood so that there's more wealth. More wealth means more stores and businesses. More stores and businesses means more jobs. More jobs means fewer people having to depend on public assistance and dispersing those concentrations of poverty.

Three cheers to Joe Mazzola for stating what apparently isn't so obvious to these short-sighted people.

KJP
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Offline 3231

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Re: Cleveland: Ohio City & Market District Developments
« Reply #68 on: August 03, 2005, 08:46:34 AM »
I'm with you KJP.  I am very curious to see which alternative sites are offered today. 

Offline Jmart

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Re: Cleveland: Ohio City & Market District Developments
« Reply #69 on: August 03, 2005, 01:53:28 PM »
I agree as well..  Im more or less like "Whats the point?

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