Author Topic: Cleveland: Downtown: Mall Development and News  (Read 88345 times)

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Offline 327

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Re: Cleveland: Mall projects and programming
« Reply #70 on: May 07, 2010, 01:26:33 PM »
Great post Avogadro, thanks for the summary.  What I don't get is how the train station (#4) is still viewed as optional.  To me it's the only no-brainer involved here.
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Offline MyTwoSense

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Re: Cleveland: Mall projects and programming
« Reply #71 on: May 07, 2010, 01:27:57 PM »
Great post Avogadro, thanks for the summary.  What I don't get is how the train station (#4) is still viewed as optional.  To me it's the only no-brainer involved here.

Agreed!  Unless they have a better alternative that can be built on ASAP
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Offline Avogadro

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Re: Cleveland: Mall projects and programming
« Reply #72 on: May 07, 2010, 02:01:05 PM »
Great post Avogadro, thanks for the summary.  What I don't get is how the train station (#4) is still viewed as optional.  To me it's the only no-brainer involved here.

I don't think that it is so much viewed as "optional" as much as it is outside of the scope of this particular study.  I believe that GGN and LMN are making sure that its design is open-ended enough to permit future development of said train station and linkage.
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Offline StrapHanger

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Re: Cleveland: Mall projects and programming
« Reply #73 on: May 07, 2010, 05:32:25 PM »
Thanks for the great run-down, Avogadro!  Was there any mention of the potential interplay/competition between a new public square and the Malls?  And recognition of the possible elevation of the Mall surfaces as a result of desired CC ceiling height?

The Hanna Fountains were beautiful, but they took up a lot of real estate and more or less guaranteed the whole Mall was just a nice weather outdoor lunch spot M-F.  I think we're all hoping for better used space this time.

Litt kind of hinted at it in his last piece, but it's going to be kind of soul crushing if we end up seeing awesome design proposals that end up going nowhere because there's no money left for the execution.
« Last Edit: May 07, 2010, 08:12:18 PM by StrapHanger »
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Offline Punch

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Re: Cleveland: Mall projects and programming
« Reply #74 on: May 07, 2010, 05:43:04 PM »
I think MMPI, Cleveland Public Art and Parkworks working together on this can leverage some money. 
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Offline jborger

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Re: Cleveland: Mall projects and programming
« Reply #75 on: May 10, 2010, 05:16:20 PM »
Was there any mention of the potential interplay/competition between a new public square and the Malls?

Yes.  They said they want to make sure the people redesigning the mall are talking to the people redesigning Public Square and that both spaces make sense.

So (and this is my example, not theirs) if the mall is redesigned to allow and even by suited for Cleveland Orchestra concerts, then Public Square doesn't need to have that same capability and vice versa. 

That was one of the thoughts that I left with after the Public Square forum held months ago.  I went in wanting to make sure whatever design they went with, it didn't ruin the ability to have concerts there (i.e. the "Thread it" plan).  But if the malls and designed to hold concerts, then it doesn't bother me if Public Square can't.

Offline 3231

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Re: Cleveland: Mall projects and programming
« Reply #76 on: June 09, 2010, 09:52:05 PM »
I've posted this in the CCmm thread. It really deals with Public Square, Casino, FEB, etc..

keep an eye on this folks. This has been brewing for a while and now the mayor has latched on..

http://blog.cleveland.com/metro/2010/06/cleveland_mayor_frank_jackson_15.html


Offline MuRrAy HiLL

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Re: Cleveland: Mall projects and programming
« Reply #78 on: June 09, 2010, 10:15:13 PM »
Mayor Jackson, just get the right people in the right place.  That's all you have to do.
« Last Edit: June 09, 2010, 10:15:27 PM by MuRrAy HiLL »
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Offline Punch

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Re: Cleveland: Mall projects and programming
« Reply #79 on: June 15, 2010, 01:43:46 PM »
MTS, we have an answer to your question

 :-D :evil: :-D :-D
^a very large parking garage?  What is your point?

I knew that.  my point, a parking garage under all that isn't bothered.
 
Having all those thing above our convention center most likely would be.
 
I think all that stuff should be developed along the FEB curving around to CBS and NCH.  It's a huge added bonus for the neighborhood.



http://blog.cleveland.com/metro/2010/06/architects_envision_clevelands.html

Landscape architects were not at the presentation, but Vinoly said the underground convention center is being designed to withstand loads of large gatherings on the park-like mall above.

"In general, it's analogous to Millennium Park," he said, naming the Chicago tourist draw Cleveland boosters would like to emulate on the Mall.

« Last Edit: June 15, 2010, 01:45:48 PM by punch »
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Offline freethink

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Re: Cleveland: Mall projects and programming
« Reply #80 on: June 29, 2010, 11:40:12 PM »
Mayor Frank Jackson names power brokers to city spaces panel

Published: Tuesday, June 29, 2010, 9:21 PM
Steven Litt, The Plain Dealer

Commission members include Cavs owner and casino developer Dan Gilbert; developer Albert Ratner, co-chairman of Forest City Enterprises; Ronn Richard, president and chief executive officer of the Cleveland Foundation; and Jennifer Coleman, an architect who serves as chairwoman of the city's Design Review Committee and vice chairwoman of the Landmarks Commission.

http://blog.cleveland.com/architecture/2010/06/mayor_frank_jackson_names_powe.html

Why not someone from ParkWorks or better yet from UO, 'bout time we get some r-e-s-p-e-c-t

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Offline KJP

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Re: Cleveland: Mall projects and programming
« Reply #81 on: June 30, 2010, 07:20:36 AM »
But what we don't have is m-o-n-e-y.
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Offline 327

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Re: Cleveland: Mall projects and programming
« Reply #82 on: June 30, 2010, 07:33:21 AM »
The composition of this panel suggests that it's less about the project succeeding and more about the mayor succeeding.
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Offline StrapHanger

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Re: Cleveland: Mall projects and programming
« Reply #83 on: June 30, 2010, 08:16:20 AM »
EDIT, I didn't get the context of KJP's post at first (duh!).

Not the most exciting crowd to be assessing our marquee public spaces... but I hope they at least have their wallets open at the end of the day, even if it's just to pay the design consultants.
« Last Edit: June 30, 2010, 08:18:04 AM by StrapHanger »
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Offline Oldmanladyluck

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Re: Cleveland: Mall projects and programming
« Reply #84 on: June 30, 2010, 08:31:35 AM »
I'm speechless when looking at the list of people on the panel.  And not speechless in a good way.
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Offline 327

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Re: Cleveland: Mall projects and programming
« Reply #85 on: June 30, 2010, 08:37:05 AM »
In fairness, Dan Gilbert could sign with the Knicks or the Bulls as of 12:01 tomorrow, so we'd better ingratiate ourselves as much as possible. 
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Offline shs96

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Re: Cleveland: Mall projects and programming
« Reply #86 on: June 30, 2010, 08:48:56 AM »
OK...so who would you rather see on the panel that is more versed in urban design that has the capital and business/political connections to make something happen?

Offline willyboy

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Re: Cleveland: Mall projects and programming
« Reply #87 on: June 30, 2010, 08:52:31 AM »
I'm speechless when looking at the list of people on the panel.  And not speechless in a good way.

Not many people capable of understanding design etc. :? 
The most I can figure is having some of the corporate involvelent may open the door to corporate contributions......  to the project I meant..
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Offline Avogadro

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Re: Cleveland: Mall projects and programming
« Reply #88 on: June 30, 2010, 08:54:14 AM »
The composition of this panel suggests that it's less about the project succeeding and more about the mayor succeeding.

Actually, it's about both.  To wit:
Quote
Finding money is another part of the job.

"Their role is really to focus on appropriate design and look at funding opportunities, but not by going to the city or the county," said Ken Silliman, the mayor's chief of staff.

A huge part of the panel's job (if not its primary job) will be to round up private funding for the public spaces, and in order to get wealthy folks and corporations to open up their pocketbooks, you need folks on the panel with these connections.
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Offline 327

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Re: Cleveland: Mall projects and programming
« Reply #89 on: June 30, 2010, 09:00:14 AM »
I didn't realize being on a design panel required capital and business/political connections.  That kind of thinking has gotten us in trouble before.  Hint: conflicts of interest.  I like Dan Gilbert, his philosophies and his actions, but I would prefer a more professional approach to planning and landscape design.

The composition of this panel suggests that it's less about the project succeeding and more about the mayor succeeding.

Actually, it's about both.  To wit:
Quote
Finding money is another part of the job.

"Their role is really to focus on appropriate design and look at funding opportunities, but not by going to the city or the county," said Ken Silliman, the mayor's chief of staff.

A huge part of the panel's job (if not its primary job) will be to round up private funding for the public spaces, and in order to get wealthy folks and corporations to open up their pocketbooks, you need folks on the panel with these connections.

OK that makes more sense, although those are two very different jobs.
« Last Edit: June 30, 2010, 09:08:14 AM by 327 »
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Offline McCleveland

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Re: Cleveland: Mall projects and programming
« Reply #90 on: June 30, 2010, 09:04:11 AM »
I'm not sure what everyone is so worked up about at this point.  Jennifer Coleman is on the committee to, I'm sure, facilitate design discussion. Though I have no doubt that eventually a firm will be brought in to do the actual design work.  The rest of the group represents the largest business interests in downtown, the philanthropic community, and the corporate real estate community.  I always hear bitching about not having enough public - private partnership... what do you think this group is formed to do?  They've selected the top names out of the private sector and non profits to start generating interest and eventually bring in $$$ so the city and the county aren't on the hook for all of this. Because frankly they couldn't afford to do what needs done alone.  Sheesh.
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Offline shs96

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Re: Cleveland: Mall projects and programming
« Reply #91 on: June 30, 2010, 09:13:01 AM »
I didn't realize being on a design panel required capital and business/political connections.  That kind of thinking has gotten us in trouble before.  Hint: conflicts of interest.  I like Dan Gilbert, his philosophies and his actions, but I would prefer a more professional approach to planning and landscape design.

When your objective is to raise funding for a public project, yes, those are requirements.  Unless you think a landscape/design firm is more likely to have an investor give them millions of dollars over Dan Gilbert.

Offline Oldmanladyluck

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Re: Cleveland: Mall projects and programming
« Reply #92 on: June 30, 2010, 09:18:32 AM »
OK.  So my shock at seeing Holmgren and Dolan on this New Group Plan Board is over. The people on the board are:


-Dan Gilbert-Cavs owner and developer of Cleveland's casino which should integrate well with the existing structures (funding/design)
-Al Ratner (developer)
-Ronn Richard from the Cleveland Foundation (grants/funding)
-Jen Coleman on the Cleveland Design Review committee (design)
-Paul Clark from PNC (funding)
-Paul Dolan (WHAT place does he serve on this board)
-Mike Holmgren (WHAT place does he serve on this board)
-Eugine Sanders (Education)
-Kathryn Lincoln from the Lincoln Institute for Land Policy in Cambridge, Mass (design, GREAT person to have on the board)
-Henry Meyer III with Keycorp (funding) 
-Don Misheff from Ernst and Young (legal)
-Douglas Miller with Jacobs Real Estate Services (developer) 
-Felton Thomas with the Cleveland Public Library (education). 

I was speechless when seeing two of these names.  Unless the mall is designed to serve some type of sports function, why the FRACK are Holmgren and Dolan on this board?  What purpose do they serve?  Holmgren just came to town not too long ago... and knows what it takes to get a team a Superbowl championship.  That's great.  But WHAT does he know about urban design?  Dolan- WHAT does he know about ANYTHING?...... (Just kidding)

Dan Gilbert- well, he might not be versed in urban design, but I can see why he would be on this board.  His initiative brought casinos to this state, along with a potential funding mechanism to fund the redesign of the mall.  Along with what we've heard about the design of the casino, which sounds like it should be well integrated with the existing infrastructure.       

OK.  I feel better now.  Whooosaaaaa
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Offline 327

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Re: Cleveland: Mall projects and programming
« Reply #93 on: June 30, 2010, 09:21:49 AM »
I'm not sure what everyone is so worked up about at this point.  Jennifer Coleman is on the committee to, I'm sure, facilitate design discussion. Though I have no doubt that eventually a firm will be brought in to do the actual design work.  The rest of the group represents the largest business interests in downtown, the philanthropic community, and the corporate real estate community.  I always hear bitching about not having enough public - private partnership... what do you think this group is formed to do?  They've selected the top names out of the private sector and non profits to start generating interest and eventually bring in $$$ so the city and the county aren't on the hook for all of this. Because frankly they couldn't afford to do what needs done alone.  Sheesh.

I suppose you're right, but this is not at all the sort of public-private partnership I've been talking about.  This involves giving private developers control over explicitly public spaces, and to an extent, public funds.  That's the opposite of a traditional public-private partnership, in which the public takes a more active hand in development.  Parks aren't development, parks are a public function.  Hence the trepidation with putting developers in control of it.  They each have personal interests which may conflict with those of the public.  This issue is not entirely dissimilar from that of privately-controlled traffic enforcement cameras.  Some things are public for a reason, and I don't like it when the line is crossed.

Then again, I don't think this is a major issue, just an eyebrow-raiser.
« Last Edit: June 30, 2010, 09:25:21 AM by 327 »
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Offline willyboy

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Re: Cleveland: Mall projects and programming
« Reply #94 on: June 30, 2010, 09:21:57 AM »
"Unless the mall is designed to serve some type of sports function, why the FRACK are Holmgren and Dolan on this board?  What purpose do they serve?  Holmgren just came to town not too long ago... and knows what it takes to get a team a Superbowl championship.  That's great.  But WHAT does he know about urban design?  Dolan- WHAT does he know about ANYTHING?......"

Equally puzzled by this....
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Offline McCleveland

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Re: Cleveland: Mall projects and programming
« Reply #95 on: June 30, 2010, 09:57:05 AM »
First, these people are not the "design team" there will undoubtedly be a gagillion public meetings, and they will undoubtedly hire a design team that will do the actual work.  Secondly, the heads of the three city sports teams are involved because not only do those entities bring in roughly 6 million visitors to downtown each and every year.  They are also HUGE economic engines and charitable trusts.  I am sure that in the end each of these entities will make rather substantial donations to this project, and for that I think getting the heads of the organization involved in the process is the right thing to do (if you want them to contribute to this).

But again, I think everyone is looking at this completely wrong.  This is NOT the design panel, though there are a couple of very capable design principals strageically added to help facilitate that discussion. But again, they will end up hiring a firm for that.  What they have done is brought the heads of the largest private and philanthropic entities in downtown all to the table.  As they should at this point.
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Offline Oldmanladyluck

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Re: Cleveland: Mall projects and programming
« Reply #96 on: June 30, 2010, 10:08:28 AM »
^Thanks for the clear-up mayor. 
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Offline willyboy

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Re: Cleveland: Mall projects and programming
« Reply #97 on: June 30, 2010, 10:25:33 AM »
Ok, ok....  I guess I was hoping to see a little more balance (and I guess there is some, but why arent you on it McC?),

But... I'll trust what your saying McCleveland.   
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Offline StrapHanger

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Re: Cleveland: Mall projects and programming
« Reply #98 on: June 30, 2010, 10:29:13 AM »
And further clarification: this is a commission; it has no authority to do anything to the public spaces.  It will be up to the Mayor and City Council to adopt or reject its recommendations.

I understand the importance of bringing deep pockets to the table, but I still think the commission's membership leaves a lot to be desired.  No elected officials?  No downtown residents (that I know of)?  Only one designer?  No RTA or other transportation rep?  I don't think this is a disaster, but I think this group is heavily lopsided towards implementation and severely lacking in visioning.  The design consultants will obviously do the heavy lifting, but they're going to need some guidance too. I would be very interested in seeing how other cities have approached similar challenges- and I say that without preconceived notions.

-Kathryn Lincoln from the Lincoln Institute for Land Policy in Cambridge, Mass (design, GREAT person to have on the board)

I could be wrong, but I don't think she brings much design expertise to the table.  She's there because of the opportunity for a grant from the LI (endowed by an AZ branch of the original Lincoln Electric family).
« Last Edit: June 30, 2010, 10:34:51 AM by StrapHanger »
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Offline tedders55

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Re: Cleveland: Mall projects and programming
« Reply #99 on: June 30, 2010, 10:40:21 AM »
And further clarification: this is a commission; it has no authority to do anything to the public spaces.  It will be up to the Mayor and City Council to adopt or reject its recommendations.

I understand the importance of bringing deep pockets to the table, but I still think the commission's membership leaves a lot to be desired.  No elected officials?  No downtown residents (that I know of)?  Only one designer?  No RTA or other transportation rep?   I don't think this is a disaster, but I think this group is heavily lopsided towards implementation and severely lacking in visioning.  The design consultants will obviously do the heavy lifting, but they're going to need some guidance too. I would be very interested in seeing how other cities have approached similar challenges- and I say that without preconceived notions.

-Kathryn Lincoln from the Lincoln Institute for Land Policy in Cambridge, Mass (design, GREAT person to have on the board)

I could be wrong, but I don't think she brings much design expertise to the table.  She's there because of the opportunity for a grant from the LI (endowed by an AZ branch of the original Lincoln Electric family).

You really want RTA involved in this?  I wouldn't say they have great vision, planning, or any of the tools to make this work.

Offline StrapHanger

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Re: Cleveland: Mall projects and programming
« Reply #100 on: June 30, 2010, 10:49:13 AM »
^Yeah, I can't argue with you.  It's tempting to to just adopt a design without considering the buses and tell RTA to deal with it...  But public square is our main ground transportation hub, so at the very least, it would be great if the commission had more than one or two people who had ever taken RTA (seriously, I doubt it's more than a couple people).

I don't mean to overreact here, I just think the commission could have been a little larger to include some different types of voices.  If Parkworks is going to be doing the real liaising with the design consultants with the commission really just in charge of lining up financing, then I'm happy enough.
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Offline KJP

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Re: Cleveland: Mall projects and programming
« Reply #101 on: June 30, 2010, 10:58:36 AM »

You really want RTA involved in this?  I wouldn't say they have great vision, planning, or any of the tools to make this work.

As a stakeholder? Yes, I do. They are the project sponsor for the intermodal transportation center, so they'd better be involved in some form.
« Last Edit: June 30, 2010, 10:58:59 AM by KJP »
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Offline Punch

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Re: Cleveland: Mall projects and programming
« Reply #102 on: June 30, 2010, 11:45:51 AM »
People, this group contains ALL the movers and shakers of this town.  They are the ones who will figure out a way to get the plans that the team composed of MMPI, ParkWorks, Cleveland Public Art, KSU's Urban design collective, among others will hash out.

It is an awesome team the Mayor has put together 
« Last Edit: June 30, 2010, 11:46:57 AM by 3231 »
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Offline McCleveland

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Re: Cleveland: Mall projects and programming
« Reply #103 on: June 30, 2010, 11:49:32 AM »
exactly. this team won't design the malls/ps... they will move it forward.
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Re: Cleveland: Mall projects and programming
« Reply #104 on: June 30, 2010, 11:56:41 AM »
exactly. this team won't design the malls/ps... they will move it forward.

Shoot, I was seriously hoping for some goal posts and an on-deck circle.

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