Author Topic: Cleveland: Downtown: Mall Development and News  (Read 90034 times)

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Offline StrapHanger

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Re: Cleveland: Mall projects and programming
« Reply #35 on: April 29, 2010, 07:06:29 PM »
At first I was puzzled by the paragraph in Litt's article in which the DCA said the public square redesign was on hold pending the redesign of the Malls, but (duh) it obviously makes sense to design these to be complimentary.  They're both pretty big spaces that should, together, allow for a nice mix of actively programmed stuff and more passive space. 

I don't know yet what I want to see on the Mall, but I'm relieved by the designer choice.  I definitely don't want a bland, symmetrical, vaguely neoclassical lawn/garden that is completely devoid of activity other than weekday lunch hour between May and October and occasional special events.  How about sculpture park with small concert/activity space and 3-season bar/restaurant with views?  If the Mall surfaces are substantially elevated above the sidewalk, we're going to need very thoughtful stairs/ramps and edges.

Just so we're all on the same page regarding size; Mall A and Mall B are each about 3.5 acres, I believe.  They're pretty big spaces.  I'm not really suggesting this, but you could fit 9 or 12 tennis courts there.
« Last Edit: April 29, 2010, 07:20:01 PM by StrapHanger »
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Offline KJP

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Re: Cleveland: Mall projects and programming
« Reply #36 on: April 29, 2010, 08:02:17 PM »
Just so we're all on the same page regarding size; Mall A and Mall B are each about 3.5 acres, I believe.  They're pretty big spaces.  I'm not really suggesting this, but you could fit 9 or 12 tennis courts there.

Or four or five bowling alleys. What?! This is Cleveland!!

As for the mall vendors things, this is similar to what I'm talking about but with more demonstrations of making stuff, more food and more live music and street performers:

Tremont's Lincoln Park....






Clifton Art & Music Fest....





« Last Edit: April 29, 2010, 08:54:44 PM by KJP »
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Offline Niko

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Re: Cleveland: Mall projects and programming
« Reply #37 on: April 30, 2010, 09:58:46 AM »
Here's a quick, to scale mock-up of Mall B with recreational facilities (sidewalks would remain as they are today).  I'm not advocating any of these facilities in particular, I just wanted to give an idea how many things there is room for.  All courts/rinks are professional sized, tennis and basketball courts have an additional 10ft on all sides.  There is still plenty of space left for flexible activities, I put the tents on there to show how easily a small market could fit (tents are 15x15).  This is comparable to some of the better parks I've seen in the area (minus baseball fields), and this still leaves Mall C, with its better view, open to a garden style park.

« Last Edit: April 30, 2010, 09:59:10 AM by Niko »

Offline KJP

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Re: Cleveland: Mall projects and programming
« Reply #38 on: April 30, 2010, 10:14:43 AM »
I say we put the bungee catapalt next to the skating area (could be a rink for in-line skate hockey in the summer).
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Offline ClevelandOhio

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Re: Cleveland: Mall projects and programming
« Reply #39 on: April 30, 2010, 10:37:07 AM »
how about one of these  :laugh:


Offline Etheostoma Caeruleum

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Re: Cleveland: Mall projects and programming
« Reply #40 on: April 30, 2010, 10:39:51 AM »
Act
What draws people? Lets look at the various neighborhood festivals that people flock to....

Food
Drink
Homemade arts and crafts
Specialty clothing
Art demonstrations

So why not have an everyday marketplace where vendors can come to display and sell their stuff, and even entertain people by showing how they make it? They would have to get an approved vendors license from the city and supply their own approved display tent or stand. A limited number of vendors licenses would be available so that the marketplace doesn't get unmanageable.

Tie that in with a skate park, ice rink, movies in the park and some other things for people to watch or participate in and you've got a reason to visit the site every day to see/do something new.


Actually, the Mall is already able to accommodate many of the such things mentioned. It is simply underutilized. More people also have to support such markets/vendors when downtown does offer such things like Art/Craft/Farmers markets.... to justify vendor's time, money, and interest in setting up. Such a scene would probably want to draw in support from outside the city as well, however, remember: We are in a place in time in history where many have forgotten how to shop unless there is a huge parking lot, or if it is handed to them through a drive-thru window. Some have forgotten how to walk to the point they waddle. People need to be given a new way....a new choice.  I guess its an educational process to get back to some of the basics of how to live or shop in the city, or why. Auto-driven landscapes have created many connections...but at the same time, sooo  many disconnections.

If maintained well, a carousel may be a nice addition....  let's not, however, make what is supposed to be an austere public prominent and proud place look too much like a ticky tacky playground. At the same time, let's not get too far ahead of things because the square/mall are projects that are not going to be reality anytime soon...so..let's make the best of what it can be right now by maintaining these areas well...and utilizing them in a balanced way that draws new interest to the city.
« Last Edit: April 30, 2010, 10:46:07 AM by Etheostoma Caeruleum »
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Offline MyTwoSense

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Re: Cleveland: Mall projects and programming
« Reply #41 on: April 30, 2010, 10:45:25 AM »
heavy sigh
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Offline KJP

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Re: Cleveland: Mall projects and programming
« Reply #42 on: April 30, 2010, 10:53:15 AM »
EC, this site is our canvas. Let us plan, play and dream.
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Offline surfohio

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Re: Cleveland: Mall projects and programming
« Reply #43 on: April 30, 2010, 11:09:39 AM »
Saw this on the front page of the paper today. I have no problem with enhancing this area...

However, it would be a wise to carry a vision that would expand the idea farther and to strive for a more green/sustainable landscape. Don't let suburban thinking and "Chemical Lawn" be the driving force influences of design.

By this I mean eliminating the uses of carcinogenic lawn chemicals/pesticides as many other cities have done  (see www.beyondpesticides.org for further information) and as often as possible, strive to use Ohio natural heritage plants...natives that were here when say... Moses landed which are more suitable for this climate because they evolved here without the help of humans. (www.prairienursery.com or www.ohioprairienursery.com has a great selections of appropriate plants)

By using as much as possible....we can reduce chemical use and oil dependency, while opening up a while new door for learning and new jobs associated with stewarding this new kind of living landscape. It can also be a great P.R. move to demonstrate complete turnarounds from the city's polluting past...and help to can those burning river jokes once and for all. What is so impressive about The Royal Botanical gardens (Sydney) which is right in the core of the CBD, is the beneficial bio-diversity that co-exists perfectly with the city life. This is hailed and praised as such a treasured attribute of that city and it presents no problems, but many benefits. many here need to be better informed about how such can provide many benefits and stop thinking like a mental midget with the ideology that is worried about a bird pooping on their car.

I hope we can do the same as cities like that instead of the dated sterile suburban lifeless turf grass scene, where the only thing seen moving is a lawnmower and the only fragrance you smell is courtesy of Monsanto or Ortho. The website above that features a company based in Wisconsin, has done many large scale plantings in urban areas and has a great resume in such consultation. We cannot be a "green city" and create an energy dependent and lake polluting landscape.

+1

Offline Niko

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Re: Cleveland: Mall projects and programming
« Reply #44 on: April 30, 2010, 11:34:06 AM »

If maintained well, a carousel may be a nice addition....  let's not, however, make what is supposed to be an austere public prominent and proud place look too much like a ticky tacky playground. At the same time, let's not get too far ahead of things because the square/mall are projects that are not going to be reality anytime soon...so..let's make the best of what it can be right now by maintaining these areas well...and utilizing them in a balanced way that draws new interest to the city.

A proud place?  We've already got lovely parks on the Mall with places to sit and relax, a gorgeous fountain, lots of room for temporary events, and its hardly ever used.  If building a functional amenity in the middle of downtown residents is tacky, then I'd rather have something tacky that's used daily than something that is "austere public prominent and proud" that only gets used at lunch and rarely on the weekends.  We've already got that.

Offline Punch

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Re: Cleveland: Mall projects and programming
« Reply #45 on: April 30, 2010, 11:45:08 AM »
With MMPI joining up with Parkworks and Cleveland Public Art as well at the Landscape Arch's from WA, I am sure what they come up with will be spectacular. 

I really think we can do something that will be a draw to the whole community, if it is done right

Here are some pics of Millenium Park.  My guess is if you took off the band shell, the size the the Peristyle, restaurant/bean, and the Crown fountains are about the same size as Mall A, B, and C
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Offline Punch

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Re: Cleveland: Mall projects and programming
« Reply #46 on: April 30, 2010, 11:50:12 AM »
Here is the rink in winter, then summer
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Offline 327

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Re: Cleveland: Mall projects and programming
« Reply #47 on: April 30, 2010, 11:59:54 AM »
Anything besides the current unadorned grass would work for me.  But I think the highest and best use here is Class A office space.  Develop it, make the CBD more attractive for businesses, continue to repurpose older office space into residential, and put the "greenspace" focus back on Public Square where it belongs.  This would involve greening-up Public Square, a prospect that already has some momentum.
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Re: Cleveland: Mall projects and programming
« Reply #48 on: April 30, 2010, 12:43:05 PM »
What draws people? Lets look at the various neighborhood festivals that people flock to....

Food
Drink
Homemade arts and crafts
Specialty clothing
Art demonstrations

KJP, that reminds me of the really excellent  film The Social Life of Small Urban Spaces where William Whyte asserts that "relationship to the street, seating, sun, water, trees, food, and triangulation" are the most important factors to consider when creating public urban spaces (including parks).

If you all haven't watched this film, you really ought to (YouTube link to Part 1 of 6- see them all).  It's droll, informative, and filled with really excellent sideburns.
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Re: Cleveland: Mall projects and programming
« Reply #49 on: April 30, 2010, 01:01:20 PM »
This might be a nice component...

In the last picture in this post, do I see the proposed/cancelled Ameritrust Tower (which was going to be built on Public Square) in the background?  Was the design sold elsewhere?
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Offline StrapHanger

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Re: Cleveland: Mall projects and programming
« Reply #50 on: April 30, 2010, 01:12:16 PM »
^Wow, good eye!  Same architect (KPF) as proposed Ameritrust tower.  http://www.sydneyarchitecture.com/cbd/cbd4-010.htm

When I think about what to do with Mall B, I keep coming back to Public Square in my head.  I think a skating rink/outdoor restaurant/bar like the one in MP (thanks Punch) would be awesome, but where would it be best- Public Square or the Mall?  It could be a great draw to the Mall, but maybe we should be focusing the active program to Public Square to ensure its repopulated rather than spreading it over two open spaces.  Not sure.  Having Parkworks involved in both is good though.
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Re: Cleveland: Mall projects and programming
« Reply #51 on: April 30, 2010, 02:10:50 PM »
I think the best thing is to consider the two spaces at the same time, as they are really connected, corner to corner.

Offline KJP

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Re: Cleveland: Mall projects and programming
« Reply #52 on: April 30, 2010, 02:14:14 PM »
In the last picture in this post, do I see the proposed/cancelled Ameritrust Tower (which was going to be built on Public Square) in the background?  Was the design sold elsewhere?

Good eye!
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Offline tedolph

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Re: Cleveland: Mall projects and programming
« Reply #53 on: May 01, 2010, 11:38:35 AM »
I don't know why this is so complicated. Do what worked before,reinstate the Hanna Fountains. In the summer you couldn't  get a seat at lunch. In the winter, use the pool as an ice skating rink. Hockey anyone?  Add a hot dog cart in the summer , a coffee cart in the winter and you are done.

Offline Etheostoma Caeruleum

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Re: Cleveland: Mall projects and programming
« Reply #54 on: May 01, 2010, 12:14:29 PM »

If maintained well, a carousel may be a nice addition....  let's not, however, make what is supposed to be an austere public prominent and proud place look too much like a ticky tacky playground. At the same time, let's not get too far ahead of things because the square/mall are projects that are not going to be reality anytime soon...so..let's make the best of what it can be right now by maintaining these areas well...and utilizing them in a balanced way that draws new interest to the city.

A proud place?  We've already got lovely parks on the Mall with places to sit and relax, a gorgeous fountain, lots of room for temporary events, and its hardly ever used.  If building a functional amenity in the middle of downtown residents is tacky, then I'd rather have something tacky that's used daily than something that is "austere public prominent and proud" that only gets used at lunch and rarely on the weekends.  We've already got that.

If my post is not read selectively, I admitted that the spaces were underutilized. To redesign it for many of the activities/things we've all been talking about which can be done there NOW in its current state is futile. I said "many" of the things mentioned, too; meaning not all. My aim is quality over quantity.
« Last Edit: May 01, 2010, 12:15:26 PM by Etheostoma Caeruleum »
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Offline ClevelandOhio

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Re: Cleveland: Mall projects and programming
« Reply #55 on: May 07, 2010, 09:40:05 AM »
Ideas proposed for redevelopment on malls B and C around proposed medical mart

CLEVELAND, Ohio -- A family-friendly environment that caters to the after-work crowd, year-round use and a site for festivals were some of the ideas offered Thursday night for the development of Malls B and C in downtown Cleveland.

http://blog.cleveland.com/metro/2010/05/public_forum_on_mall_offers_mo.html

Offline 327

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Re: Cleveland: Mall projects and programming
« Reply #56 on: May 07, 2010, 10:10:07 AM »
A family-friendly environment that caters to the after-work crowd

Because everyone brings their kids & grandparents to work!

I don't know why this is so complicated. Do what worked before,reinstate the Hanna Fountains.

This is probably our best option.
« Last Edit: May 07, 2010, 10:17:42 AM by 327 »
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Offline Niko

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Re: Cleveland: Mall projects and programming
« Reply #57 on: May 07, 2010, 10:23:46 AM »
I don't remember the fountains at all.  In the past, what was the draw of the fountains after work hours and off season?  Basically, what got people to go and how many people?
« Last Edit: May 07, 2010, 10:24:26 AM by Niko »

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Re: Cleveland: Mall projects and programming
« Reply #58 on: May 07, 2010, 10:27:37 AM »
the fountains leaked.  They were removed.  There are pictures on this site of them.
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Re: Cleveland: Mall projects and programming
« Reply #59 on: May 07, 2010, 10:35:12 AM »
Because everyone brings their kids & grandparents to work!

The discussion on this point revolved around making the malls somewhere that suburban families would WANT to go on evenings and weekends.

Offline 327

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Re: Cleveland: Mall projects and programming
« Reply #60 on: May 07, 2010, 10:50:38 AM »
Because everyone brings their kids & grandparents to work!

The discussion on this point revolved around making the malls somewhere that suburban families would WANT to go on evenings and weekends.

I was commenting on the statement itself, one that seems contradictory.  Kinda like my "vibrant" pet peeve... failure to acknowledge that family-friendly and after-work are not at all the same constituencies.  Efforts to please both could end up pleasing neither.  Just a bit of bad writing.  Halfway down the article it's made clear that these were two entirely different suggestions, which makes more sense.

Any further details about the meeting?  The item from the article that most caught my eye was the bit about public restrooms.  Awkward to talk about... but necessary... restroom access is a factor I have to consider when planning outings with my parents.
« Last Edit: May 07, 2010, 10:51:20 AM by 327 »
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Re: Cleveland: Mall projects and programming
« Reply #61 on: May 07, 2010, 10:52:10 AM »
^I hope that didn't lead to the proposition that the mall be turned into one huge cul-de-sac (ba-dum, bum, pish).  Sorry- couldn't resist.  I agree with giving the mall multiple uses, as long as the end result is distinctly Cleveland, and not Chicago or some other city we "aspire" to be.
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Re: Cleveland: Mall projects and programming
« Reply #62 on: May 07, 2010, 10:57:10 AM »
Yeah, not sure why the focus is on attracting suburbanites. 

There are in fact people who enjoy being in the city w/o prompting or pandering.  Some of these people live in Greater Cleveland while many others do not (yet), but I can't help but think that urbanists comprise the more appropriate target audience.
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Re: Cleveland: Mall projects and programming
« Reply #63 on: May 07, 2010, 10:59:07 AM »
^I hope that didn't lead to the proposition that the mall be turned into one huge cul-de-sac (ba-dum, bum, pish).  Sorry- couldn't resist.  I agree with giving the mall multiple uses, as long as the end result is distinctly Cleveland, and not Chicago or some other city we "aspire" to be.

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Re: Cleveland: Mall projects and programming
« Reply #64 on: May 07, 2010, 11:38:56 AM »
I was at the meeting yesterday, and came out more impressed with LMN and GGC than I was already.  I'll try to summarize the points as briefly as I can:

First, Mark Reddington (LMN) described how his firm takes the basic plan of convention center movement and then "folds" and manipulates it to fit in the settings in which they are building.  Reddington and Shannon Nichol (GNN) then went through the following seven points to describe how they are approaching the project:

1. Lifted City: They showed a relief map of downtown and showed how it is, for all intents and purposes, a peninsula raised above the Lake (and the lower, filled in lakefront) to the north and the Cuyahoga River and Valley to the west, and how this influenced street layout (such as Lakeside and Euclid) and how the Mall actually sits at the top of this peninsula.  This gives the site prominence with regard not just to views to the lake, but connections to Public Square and to the east and west. How then ought we to regard this space to honor this prominence?

2. Civic Heart: The Mall site is not only in the center of the "Civic District", but is fairly equidistant to the other downtown districts, and as such (although current pedestrian movements don't reflect this), ought to act as a hub for pedestrians. The admitted challenge is that the "Civic Heart" is surrounded by "5 p.m. uses". They contend that while the Medical Mart can contribute to the use of the Mall in the evenings, it is also important to have programs that regularly use the Mall and use it throughout the year.

3. City Beautiful: Besides the obvious importance of the City Beautiful movement (and Cleveland's place among the great spaces of this movement), Reddington and Nichols showed how the Mall was intended to have pedestrian activity along its edges, with tree-lined promenades along its western and eastern frames. With the use of the western frame as the truck dock and the eastern frame for cars and the movement of people through the center, that pattern of movement has been replaced with zig-zag patterns that discourage pedestrians to move across the Mall. They would like to restore a more obvious pedestrian pattern that brings people closer to the buildings (which in turn helps to generate more pedestrian interest).

4. Place of Arrival: They described the original intent to have the train station at the northern end, and wanted to keep open the possibility of connecting the Mall to the station to the north. They did emphasize that the Medical Mart will also act as an attractor to make the Mall a "place of arrival" and communicated that it should be uniquely Cleveland and speak to our values as a community (similar to how the Group Plan spoke of Cleveland's early 20th-century place as a city of "good government").

5 Lakefront Edge: Fairly obvious.

6 Urban Alignment: This was similar to "Civic Heart" in that the need for programming was evident, as was the desire to make this a space that served Downtown well.  Additionally, they talked of the need to improve Lakeside and St. Clair so that they were not barriers to movement but contributed to the urbanism of the site. They also described the east-west movement north of Mall C that existed before back when there was a road parallel to Lakeside (before the parking garages).

7. Green Ring: Here, they spoke of the Emerald Necklace and how the Mall should act as a hub to the Metroparks and how it should connect to east-west movement on the Lakefront.  They also described how the Mall should manage stormwater on-site.

(sorry, this was a lot longer than I intended it to be)
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Re: Cleveland: Mall projects and programming
« Reply #65 on: May 07, 2010, 11:48:08 AM »
Avogadro- GREAT NOTES!  I'm looking forward to what is proposed.  Thanks!!
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Re: Cleveland: Mall projects and programming
« Reply #66 on: May 07, 2010, 12:01:23 PM »
My favorite Ranchero comes thru with notes! Gracias.  Fotos?
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Re: Cleveland: Mall projects and programming
« Reply #67 on: May 07, 2010, 12:21:00 PM »
My favorite Ranchero comes thru with notes! Gracias.  Fotos?

Ai, cabrón. If I had photos, don't you think I would have shared them already?

One more point: they talked about developing "catalyst landscapes", which describes places that generate pedestrian life on their own. For a space that is surrounded by offices and other mainly-daytime activities, having an active space is necessary to generate... "vibrancy".

It will be interesting to see how this can co-exist with the current and perhaps future expectation of the Mall as a blank space for large public gatherings.
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Re: Cleveland: Mall projects and programming
« Reply #68 on: May 07, 2010, 12:22:42 PM »
Here's a quick, to scale mock-up of Mall B with recreational facilities (sidewalks would remain as they are today).  I'm not advocating any of these facilities in particular, I just wanted to give an idea how many things there is room for.  All courts/rinks are professional sized, tennis and basketball courts have an additional 10ft on all sides.  There is still plenty of space left for flexible activities, I put the tents on there to show how easily a small market could fit (tents are 15x15).  This is comparable to some of the better parks I've seen in the area (minus baseball fields), and this still leaves Mall C, with its better view, open to a garden style park.



You know, at first I thought bball courts and the like were the WORST idea for our grand public space, but after seeing this mock-up and thinking about the attached convention center and med mart, what better diversion from a boring conference than a center that offers bball courts, rock climbing and the like right at the front door!  Especially since people are moving to a more active lifestyle these days.  It may put us at the forefront of an "active" convention movement and it would certainly make our convention center stand out from the rest.

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Re: Cleveland: Mall projects and programming
« Reply #69 on: May 07, 2010, 12:50:10 PM »
My favorite Ranchero comes thru with notes! Gracias.  Fotos?

Ai, cabrón. If I had photos, don't you think I would have shared them already?

One more point: they talked about developing "catalyst landscapes", which describes places that generate pedestrian life on their own. For a space that is surrounded by offices and other mainly-daytime activities, having an active space is necessary to generate... "vibrancy".

It will be interesting to see how this can co-exist with the current and perhaps future expectation of the Mall as a blank space for large public gatherings.

Not necessarily.  You know how you people are!
my 2 ˘     Please Sell Crazy Someplace Else....We Have Excess Inventory Here!!

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