Author Topic: Cleveland: Downtown: Mall Development and News  (Read 88247 times)

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Offline Scav

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Re: Cleveland: Mall projects and programming
« Reply #175 on: December 17, 2010, 02:50:16 AM »
I like that one. This city needs green space more than it needs to get rid of parking lots. I like the attention that the north face of the project is getting but.. gosh we need to get public square up to snuff too.. its a pedestrians nightmare and provides a critical connection to the rest of the city.
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Offline KJP

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Re: Cleveland: Mall projects and programming
« Reply #176 on: December 17, 2010, 08:07:17 AM »
Whats the status of the North Coast Transportation Center now that 3C is dead? I didnt see that in any of the renderings

I'm hearing rumblings that the project was suspended. But that's a subject for the NCTC thread.
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Offline Punch

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Re: Cleveland: Mall projects and programming
« Reply #177 on: December 17, 2010, 10:51:51 AM »
I didn't think I would like the idea of removing the garages, but now that I see it (in glorious watercolor) I get it.  Think of the beauty shots of a city on a hill.  Crossing over the tracks will be easier as well.
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Offline Foraker

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Re: Cleveland: Mall projects and programming
« Reply #178 on: December 17, 2010, 12:12:35 PM »
Whats the status of the North Coast Transportation Center now that 3C is dead? I didnt see that in any of the renderings

I'm hearing rumblings that the project was suspended. But that's a subject for the NCTC thread.

That wouldn't be unexpected, but let's hope that in renovating the mall they plan for the revival of the NCTC.  Hopefully someone involved is reading these threads....

Offline Hootenany

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Re: Cleveland: Mall projects and programming
« Reply #179 on: December 17, 2010, 12:49:39 PM »
^That's my hope as well.  It's not a surprise that the project is suspended, but the design of the mall / CC must keep a future NCTC in mind.  We would be shooting ourselves in the foot if we built a new mall / CC that made the construction of the NCTC prohibitively expensive due to added demolition and rebuild costs of the mall / CC.  Make it easy to add the NCTC in the future.

Offline MyTwoSense

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Re: Cleveland: Mall projects and programming
« Reply #180 on: December 17, 2010, 12:52:07 PM »
Honestly I dont like it at the mall.  There are other places at train station can be built to connect downtown
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Offline nehpets19

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Re: Cleveland: Mall projects and programming
« Reply #181 on: December 18, 2010, 12:29:30 PM »
LMN Architects and Gustafson Guthrie Nichol envision bold ideas for downtown's Group Plan Commission

by Steven Litt

CLEVELAND, Ohio It can be hard to see Cleveland with fresh eyes. But that's exactly what two talented designers from Seattle are asking Clevelanders to do.
Where others would see the tired heart of a shrinking city with chronic low self-esteem, they see big opportunities.

read more at: http://blog.cleveland.com/architecture/2010/12/new_concepts_for_cleveland_gro.html

Offline ogibbigo

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Re: Cleveland: Mall projects and programming
« Reply #182 on: December 18, 2010, 12:33:21 PM »
The one rendering from the design challenge earlier this year or last, showed a grassy pedestrian ramp on top of the proposed transportation center that bridged over the tracks and connected the mall to north coast harbor, it looked sweet

Offline ClevelandOhio

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Re: Cleveland: Mall projects and programming
« Reply #183 on: December 18, 2010, 01:06:07 PM »
The malls have a very large potential of becoming something great. I like the idea to close east 3rd street.

Offline MyTwoSense

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Re: Cleveland: Mall projects and programming
« Reply #184 on: December 18, 2010, 01:47:05 PM »
The malls have a very large potential of becoming something great. I like the idea to close east 3rd street.

Me too.
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Offline Coneybear

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Re: Cleveland: Mall projects and programming
« Reply #185 on: December 18, 2010, 04:18:35 PM »
The one rendering from the design challenge earlier this year or last, showed a grassy pedestrian ramp on top of the proposed transportation center that bridged over the tracks and connected the mall to north coast harbor, it looked sweet
I've seen this before and I'm a huge fan of the idea. There needs to be more downtown connection to nch and I think that is the most efficient way to do it. A combination of this and the "grand stair case" idea presented in the article would be very appealing.

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Re: Cleveland: Mall projects and programming
« Reply #186 on: December 19, 2010, 11:39:02 AM »
All good stuff.  While walking down Superior past East 3rd the other day, I thought about the idea of closing East 3rd to auto/bus traffic and really liked how that would pull The Mall into Superior.  It's a good spot to do it, too, because the Hyatt is right there.  And the library.

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Re: Cleveland: Mall projects and programming
« Reply #187 on: January 06, 2011, 12:50:08 PM »
^Yeah, I really like that feature too.  Hope RTA doesn't squash it- I think they use that little stretch on some of their routes.

Well, that would cost a lot more money. Millenium Park is successful, but it cost nearly $500 million (about 2 x the proposed coast). Also, one major reason for it's success is the close proximity to busy Michigan Avenue. You already had the critical mass of people near by to support Mellenium Park when it was built, plus a ton of residential buildings going up next to it. I don't think the interactivity of Mellenium Park created its success. It was successful because it was a nice addition to an already active area.

Yes.  The traffic and usage of a park is determined more by its surroundings than by its features.  The Mall is surrounded by high-security government buildings that close by 5pm.  It is cut off, by these surroundings, from traffic generators like residential and retail and entertainment.  We could display a real live unicorn there and we still would not see a substantial change in its usage.   I would therefore not recommend breaking the bank on features.

I agree with you about the surrounding conditions and with yanni_gogolak about the overly optimistic renderings, but not sure your conclusion necessarily follows.  Some open spaces are attractions in their own right, if they are programmed and offer activities rather than mere amenities for passive or spontaneous use.  I need to take a closer look at the proposals, but I think they might offer a great blend of neighborhood attractions (recreational amenities for downtown residents), visitor amenities and maybe even some regional attractions (that ice rink).  That last category is a tough challenge though.
« Last Edit: January 06, 2011, 12:51:50 PM by StrapHanger »
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Offline 327

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Re: Cleveland: Mall projects and programming
« Reply #188 on: January 06, 2011, 01:16:19 PM »
Well, that would cost a lot more money. Millenium Park is successful, but it cost nearly $500 million (about 2 x the proposed coast). Also, one major reason for it's success is the close proximity to busy Michigan Avenue. You already had the critical mass of people near by to support Mellenium Park when it was built, plus a ton of residential buildings going up next to it. I don't think the interactivity of Mellenium Park created its success. It was successful because it was a nice addition to an already active area.

Yes.  The traffic and usage of a park is determined more by its surroundings than by its features.  The Mall is surrounded by high-security government buildings that close by 5pm.  It is cut off, by these surroundings, from traffic generators like residential and retail and entertainment.  We could display a real live unicorn there and we still would not see a substantial change in its usage.   I would therefore not recommend breaking the bank on features.

The traffic and usage of a park is determined more by its surroundings than by its features

What do you base that off of?

Observation and critical thinking.  Some of the reasoning is found in my post, some is found in the one I originally quoted.  Here's more:  Parks are by nature a pedestrian amenity.  We may drive to them, but we generally don't drive on them.  As a result, parks are utilized largely by those who are already in walking distance.  They typically arrive at that point, near the park, because they had a separate reason to visit it (or they live nearby). 

That ties into the nature of what surrounds the park.  Apartments?  24 hour activity cycle, peaking with evenings and weekends.  Entertanment?  Meals and evenings, sometimes late night.  Retail?  Primarily evenings and weekends.  Government?  Very very limted, no evenings no weekends.  And even when you are visiting a government building, it's often not an experience you want to linger or dwell on.  You're probably missing work to be there.  Thus the Mall isn't even that busy 9-5 on weekdays when the government stuff is open.   
« Last Edit: January 06, 2011, 03:27:36 PM by 327 »
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Re: Cleveland: Mall projects and programming
« Reply #189 on: January 06, 2011, 01:45:01 PM »
Speaking of ambitious renderings, if the mall truly was that pedestrian gateway to the lakefront then I'm certain the draw would be much much greater.


Offline ClevelandOhio

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Re: Cleveland: Mall projects and programming
« Reply #190 on: January 06, 2011, 01:50:30 PM »
Speaking of ambitious renderings, if the mall truly was that pedestrian gateway to the lakefront then I'm certain the draw would be much much greater.



That could be vital. The connection to the lake, rock hall, science center, and stadium could really help out its usage.

It would be a nice walk for visitors staying at the Marriot who want to go to the rock hall or science center. The Crown Plaza isnt far away either.

Offline ClevelandOhio

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Re: Cleveland: Mall projects and programming
« Reply #191 on: January 06, 2011, 02:17:11 PM »
And while in chicago, we stayed north of the river but made sure we visited Millenium Park. I think people would be willing to walk for something special.

Offline urbanforever

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Re: Cleveland: Mall projects and programming
« Reply #192 on: January 06, 2011, 04:18:11 PM »
Going back to the comment about how Millenium park Succeeded because it was in close proximity to Michigan avenue and other activity.  City Park in St. Louis still seems to have a large draw enough though it does not have a draw like Michigan Ave.  The reason I think it succeeds is the amenities it has.  When I visited I saw many families there who probably did not even live in the city.

Offline KJP

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Re: Cleveland: Mall projects and programming
« Reply #193 on: January 06, 2011, 05:47:47 PM »
Closer to home, Voinovich Park draws people because there's reasons to go there, including a skate park (now gone!), nearby tourist venues, etc. But there's no retail or housing.
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Offline Hootenany

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Re: Cleveland: Mall projects and programming
« Reply #194 on: January 07, 2011, 07:38:03 AM »
Going back to the comment about how Millenium park Succeeded because it was in close proximity to Michigan avenue and other activity.  City Park in St. Louis still seems to have a large draw enough though it does not have a draw like Michigan Ave.  The reason I think it succeeds is the amenities it has.  When I visited I saw many families there who probably did not even live in the city.

The Gateway Arch isn't a draw? 

Offline urbanforever

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Re: Cleveland: Mall projects and programming
« Reply #195 on: January 07, 2011, 09:01:29 AM »
Going back to the comment about how Millenium park Succeeded because it was in close proximity to Michigan avenue and other activity.  City Park in St. Louis still seems to have a large draw enough though it does not have a draw like Michigan Ave.  The reason I think it succeeds is the amenities it has.  When I visited I saw many families there who probably did not even live in the city.

The Gateway Arch isn't a draw? 

The Gateway arch is at least half a mile from the park...

Offline yanni_gogolak

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Re: Cleveland: Mall projects and programming
« Reply #196 on: January 07, 2011, 09:11:51 AM »
Going back to the comment about how Millenium park Succeeded because it was in close proximity to Michigan avenue and other activity.  City Park in St. Louis still seems to have a large draw enough though it does not have a draw like Michigan Ave.  The reason I think it succeeds is the amenities it has.  When I visited I saw many families there who probably did not even live in the city.

The Gateway Arch isn't a draw? 

It isn't, in fact they recently had a competition for solutions on ways to better integrate it into the urban fabric and make it an attraction.
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Offline ClevelandOhio

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Re: Cleveland: Mall projects and programming
« Reply #197 on: January 22, 2011, 02:17:01 PM »
Look like they are at least thinking about a pedestrian bridge to the lake

Cleveland Planning Commission approves medical mart, calls for vibrant downtown mall

MMPI will spend about $20 million on the mall's surface, and the plan presented Friday by LMN Architects and Gustafson Guthrie Nichol, both of Seattle, included basics like concrete sidewalks, 120 steel benches and dense rows of American Elm trees.

Commission members discussed adding a volleyball or basketball court to the northwest corner of Mall C, and questioned whether barbecue pits were a smart idea...

http://blog.cleveland.com/metro/2011/01/cleveland_planning_commission_1.html

Offline 327

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Re: Cleveland: Mall projects and programming
« Reply #198 on: January 22, 2011, 02:56:17 PM »
BBQ pits are a smarter idea than basketball and volleyball courts.
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Offline Niko

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Re: Cleveland: Mall projects and programming
« Reply #199 on: January 22, 2011, 03:22:13 PM »
BBQ pits are a smarter idea than basketball and volleyball courts.
I would say the opposite.  With the current obesity epidemic I think we need more ways for people to exercise, not more ways for people to eat :)

There's room for all that stuff.  The more things to draw people down there, the better.

Offline ClevelandOhio

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Re: Cleveland: Mall projects and programming
« Reply #200 on: January 22, 2011, 03:27:23 PM »
But would basketball courts draw large groups of teenagers hanging out at and swearing that would turn people off especially families? We want it to become a family friendly environment. Im not saying basketball courts would automatically be bad, but it does have the potential to be. Tennis courts would be less of a problem but then again, how often would they actually be used?

Offline MyTwoSense

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Re: Cleveland: Mall projects and programming
« Reply #201 on: January 22, 2011, 03:30:53 PM »
But would basketball courts draw large groups of teenagers hanging out at and swearing that would turn people off especially families? We want it to become a family friendly environment. Im not saying basketball courts would automatically be bad, but it does have the potential to be. Tennis courts would be less of a problem but then again, how often would they actually be used?

sounds like the people on Cleveland.com, worried that this would be a draw for black and or thugs, since many think the two are interchangeable.  If I said tennis or miniature golf court, would the same amount of hate be written?  Better yet would it even be up for discussion.  Granted I think many of those comments are by people who do not live in the city center or know anything about urban living/neighborhoods.
« Last Edit: January 22, 2011, 03:31:44 PM by MyTwoSense »
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Offline 327

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Re: Cleveland: Mall projects and programming
« Reply #202 on: January 22, 2011, 03:36:36 PM »
BBQ pits are a smarter idea than basketball and volleyball courts.
I would say the opposite.  With the current obesity epidemic I think we need more ways for people to exercise, not more ways for people to eat :)

There's room for all that stuff.  The more things to draw people down there, the better.

So knock down East 4th St and make it a running track.  Lard begone!

Seriously, if we're trying to elminate the perception that the Mall is lonely and foresaken, we shouldn't relegate any portion of the new design to uses that are impossible for nearly half the year in our climate.  Outdoor basketball courts are guaranteed empty today in Cleveland.  And aren't they usually surrounded by chain link fences?  Let's not do that here.
« Last Edit: January 22, 2011, 04:04:24 PM by 327 »
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Offline willyboy

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Re: Cleveland: Mall projects and programming
« Reply #203 on: January 22, 2011, 03:37:05 PM »
But would basketball courts draw large groups of teenagers hanging out at and swearing that would turn people off especially families? We want it to become a family friendly environment. Im not saying basketball courts would automatically be bad, but it does have the potential to be. Tennis courts would be less of a problem but then again, how often would they actually be used?

sounds like the people on Cleveland.com, worried that this would be a draw for black and or thugs, since many think the two are interchangeable.  If I said tennis or miniature golf court, would the same amount of hate be written?  Better yet would it even be up for discussion.  Granted I think many of those comments are by people who do not live in the city center or know anything about urban living/neighborhoods.

Doubtfully since I dont know of many thugs that like to play tennis or miniature gold for that matter.
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Offline ClevelandOhio

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Re: Cleveland: Mall projects and programming
« Reply #204 on: January 22, 2011, 03:38:25 PM »
But would basketball courts draw large groups of teenagers hanging out at and swearing that would turn people off especially families? We want it to become a family friendly environment. Im not saying basketball courts would automatically be bad, but it does have the potential to be. Tennis courts would be less of a problem but then again, how often would they actually be used?

sounds like the people on Cleveland.com, worried that this would be a draw for black and or thugs, since many think the two are interchangeable.  If I said tennis or miniature golf court, would the same amount of hate be written?  Better yet would it even be up for discussion.  Granted I think many of those comments are by people who do not live in the city center or know anything about urban living/neighborhoods.

No need for insult. And especially trying to call me racist, which I am far from. Ive been to mostly white basketball courts and just hear swearing and bad behavior including fights. Its nothing to do with race, its just what teenagers do, of all races.
« Last Edit: January 22, 2011, 03:39:59 PM by ClevelandOhio »

Offline ClevelandOhio

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Re: Cleveland: Mall projects and programming
« Reply #205 on: January 22, 2011, 03:45:01 PM »
So knock down East 4th St and make it a running track.  Lard begone!

Seriously, if we're trying to elminate the perception that the Mall is lonely and foresaken, we shouldn't relegate any portion of the new design to uses that are impossible for nearly half the year in our climate.  Outdoor basketball courts are guaranteed empty today in Cleveland.  And aren't they usually surrounded by chain link fences?  Let's not do that here.

Excellent points, and please no chain link fences! That would be so out of place

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Re: Cleveland: Mall projects and programming
« Reply #206 on: January 22, 2011, 03:55:41 PM »
A basketball court would be an unbelievably stupid idea. It's never gonna happen.

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Re: Cleveland: Mall projects and programming
« Reply #207 on: January 22, 2011, 04:13:00 PM »
But would basketball courts draw large groups of teenagers hanging out at and swearing that would turn people off especially families? We want it to become a family friendly environment. Im not saying basketball courts would automatically be bad, but it does have the potential to be. Tennis courts would be less of a problem but then again, how often would they actually be used?

sounds like the people on Cleveland.com, worried that this would be a draw for black and or thugs, since many think the two are interchangeable.  If I said tennis or miniature golf court, would the same amount of hate be written?  Better yet would it even be up for discussion.  Granted I think many of those comments are by people who do not live in the city center or know anything about urban living/neighborhoods.

Doubtfully since I dont know of many thugs that like to play tennis or miniature gold for that matter.
Sweetie you'd be surprised.

But would basketball courts draw large groups of teenagers hanging out at and swearing that would turn people off especially families? We want it to become a family friendly environment. Im not saying basketball courts would automatically be bad, but it does have the potential to be. Tennis courts would be less of a problem but then again, how often would they actually be used?

sounds like the people on Cleveland.com, worried that this would be a draw for black and or thugs, since many think the two are interchangeable.  If I said tennis or miniature golf court, would the same amount of hate be written?  Better yet would it even be up for discussion.  Granted I think many of those comments are by people who do not live in the city center or know anything about urban living/neighborhoods.

No need for insult. And especially trying to call me racist, which I am far from. Ive been to mostly white basketball courts and just hear swearing and bad behavior including fights. Its nothing to do with race, its just what teenagers do, of all races.
That wasn't an insult that was question!  I think you and everyone on here knows me well enough that I was going to call you a racist, I would have done just that.

So.....again why does it matter, why would you ask that? Why would anyone think the courts would be a draw for undesirables?
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Offline ClevelandOhio

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Re: Cleveland: Mall projects and programming
« Reply #208 on: January 22, 2011, 04:22:25 PM »
^ Basketball courts, a lot of the time, seem to draw large groups of teenagers, of all races, which often perform bad behavior such as swearing, fighting, and loudness which is a negative thing in a setting that the mall is trying to create. There are clearly better locations in the city for basketbal courts.
« Last Edit: January 22, 2011, 04:23:01 PM by ClevelandOhio »

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Re: Cleveland: Mall projects and programming
« Reply #209 on: January 22, 2011, 04:30:32 PM »
^ Basketball courts, a lot of the time, seem to draw large groups of teenagers, of all races, which often perform bad behavior such as swearing, fighting, and loudness which is a negative thing in a setting that the mall is trying to create. There are clearly better locations in the city for basketbal courts.

Then why ask the question?  Do you see where I'm going with this?  If you knew the answer why ask?   

I am not a fan of any permanent sports courts here.  I trail along the northern portion of the mall starting from CSU going thru the avenue disttic/north coast harbor/warehouse district lake to the east bank of the flat with various fitness stations would to me be a better way to weave the mall into the fabric of the surrounding neighborhoods.

Now having rotating events such that are programmed into the mall such as the nike 3-on-3, X games sports, miniature golf competitions, etc., would serve the mall better as they want this to be a gathering place for all.  Planning various events that garner to differnent audiences gives you many more impression than one type of permanent structure in this context.
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