Author Topic: Cleveland: Downtown: Mall Development and News  (Read 88250 times)

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Offline Avogadro

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Re: Cleveland: Mall projects and programming
« Reply #140 on: August 19, 2010, 04:20:16 PM »
^ If one were to make a beeline from an intermodal station to Terminal Tower, where would one encounter street-level retail? Certainly not around the Mall (surrounded by government buildings and the MedMart/Public Auditorium).
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Offline MyTwoSense

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Re: Cleveland: Mall projects and programming
« Reply #141 on: August 19, 2010, 04:38:19 PM »
Thats not the point.  The issues is people by passing any current (yes I knwo it's not much) and any future retail.
 
Yes I know we have rain, sleet, snow and heat.  Every other city has varying degrees of weather as well.
 
To me it's just an excuse to build something that isn't needed and that has to be maintained.
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Offline ClevelandOhio

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Re: Cleveland: Mall projects and programming
« Reply #142 on: August 19, 2010, 04:44:49 PM »
Can't they just make the rapid station connect to mall C, that will let people take the train straight into tower city and they dont even have to walk. And it would be cheaper then building a tunnel.

Offline KJP

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Re: Cleveland: Mall projects and programming
« Reply #143 on: August 19, 2010, 05:52:59 PM »

To me it's just an excuse to build something that isn't needed and that has to be maintained.

I'm not proposing that anything be built this isn't going to be built already (or at least is being considered for construction). I'm proposing that the corridors and other interior spaces within the convention center be designed to allow direct public access around-the-clock so people to may travel from hotel, to convention facilities, to intermodal station, to North Coast Harbor attractions or any combination of these.
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Offline MyTwoSense

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Re: Cleveland: Mall projects and programming
« Reply #144 on: August 20, 2010, 12:08:59 PM »

To me it's just an excuse to build something that isn't needed and that has to be maintained.

I'm not proposing that anything be built this isn't going to be built already (or at least is being considered for construction). I'm proposing that the corridors and other interior spaces within the convention center be designed to allow direct public access around-the-clock so people to may travel from hotel, to convention facilities, to intermodal station, to North Coast Harbor attractions or any combination of these.

Oh....thanks for clearing that up my friend!   ;)
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Re: Cleveland: Mall projects and programming
« Reply #145 on: September 22, 2010, 05:19:53 PM »
Well this is torture: Cleveland.com has a new article about the Mall design, but the link is broken...

Millennium Park-like designs not in the plans for downtown mall
http://www.cleveland.com/cuyahoga-county/index.ssf/2010/09/millennium_park-like_designs_not_in_the_plans_for_downtown_mall.html

Hoping it works soon...
"Cleveland, as you see, is not an apple, but a bunch of grapes each of which has its own particular pattern-some large, others small, some round, others long and narrow, some sweet, others sour, some sound, others rotten throughout."  -Howard Whipple Green, 1932

Offline Punch

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Re: Cleveland: Mall projects and programming
« Reply #146 on: September 22, 2010, 05:39:02 PM »
how did you hear about it strap?
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Re: Cleveland: Mall projects and programming
« Reply #147 on: September 22, 2010, 06:12:22 PM »
^Weird... there was a headline and little photo on the main Cleveland.com page and the link I posted above, but now they're gone.  Maybe it was posted before being finished or something.  We'll see if it pops up later.
« Last Edit: September 22, 2010, 06:43:12 PM by StrapHanger »
"Cleveland, as you see, is not an apple, but a bunch of grapes each of which has its own particular pattern-some large, others small, some round, others long and narrow, some sweet, others sour, some sound, others rotten throughout."  -Howard Whipple Green, 1932

Offline Punch

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Re: Cleveland: Mall projects and programming
« Reply #148 on: September 22, 2010, 06:25:15 PM »
Maybe the author was upset because there was no plans for a large stainless steel bean (aka Cloudgate)

or (conspiracy theory) the publisher, who is on the new group plan commission saw it and pulled it.

With the same landscape architect as Millennium park, I think it is going to be hard not to have similarities
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Offline 3231

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Re: Cleveland: Mall projects and programming
« Reply #149 on: September 22, 2010, 09:18:06 PM »
Here's the reality:

-there is not enough money in the budget to do anything significant with the Malls in the convention center budget. The contract with MMPI states that the Malls must be similar in nature to the current design. This has been know for a long time.

-the landscape architecture firm is developing a Plan B. It is basically a "if you had a lot more money, you could do this with the Malls"

-the Group Plan Commission is figuring out how to come up with the money to fund Plan B (as well as Public Square, land bridges to the lake, etc)

This sounds like a non-story by the PD.

Offline ClevelandOhio

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Re: Cleveland: Mall projects and programming
« Reply #150 on: September 22, 2010, 10:57:51 PM »
i would prefer the malls and the land bridge to the lake. Public square is fine as is for now and is a place for people waiting for busses. the malls could really be turned into some cool

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Re: Cleveland: Mall projects and programming
« Reply #151 on: September 23, 2010, 06:27:01 AM »
Here's the reality:

-there is not enough money in the budget to do anything significant with the Malls in the convention center budget. The contract with MMPI states that the Malls must be similar in nature to the current design. This has been know for a long time.

-the landscape architecture firm is developing a Plan B. It is basically a "if you had a lot more money, you could do this with the Malls"

-the Group Plan Commission is figuring out how to come up with the money to fund Plan B (as well as Public Square, land bridges to the lake, etc)

This sounds like a ANOTHER non-story by the PD.

Fixed that for you.
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Re: Cleveland: Mall projects and programming
« Reply #152 on: September 23, 2010, 10:48:24 AM »
Well this is torture: Cleveland.com has a new article about the Mall design, but the link is broken...

Millennium Park-like designs not in the plans for downtown mall
http://www.cleveland.com/cuyahoga-county/index.ssf/2010/09/millennium_park-like_designs_not_in_the_plans_for_downtown_mall.html

Hoping it works soon...

OK, the article is up now.
"Cleveland, as you see, is not an apple, but a bunch of grapes each of which has its own particular pattern-some large, others small, some round, others long and narrow, some sweet, others sour, some sound, others rotten throughout."  -Howard Whipple Green, 1932

Offline Htsguy

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Re: Cleveland: Mall projects and programming
« Reply #153 on: September 23, 2010, 10:57:39 AM »
3231 you hit the nail right on the head.  How in the world is anything contained in that PD article "news"?  Why even bother with it...filling up space.

It is clear the commission's biggest challenge (a group which is only beginning its process) will be to find the $$$ to do anything, especially anything grand.  Everybody likes to throw out their pie in the sky hopes and dreams but nobody can come up with a particul way to fund them without taxpayers going nuts (who has the balls to take the criticism or even face the very good likelyhood of being thrown out of office).

Unfortunately, while there is much talent on the commission, I have great doubts it will be able to meet the funding hurdle.  I for one cannot even venture a guess where the $$$ will come from.


The acutal  new convention center is a perfect example of the difficulties.  For years groups were formed (both private and public) to come up with a workable plan for a new center.  The stubbling block was always funding and nobody had the balls to propose anything that would raise the ire of the taypayers.  Say what you will about the current commissioners, but they were the ones who finally had the will to impose the tax (without a public vote no less).  And they only did it with the "cover " of the Medical Mart propsal and the promise of a new industry.

I hope I am wrong about all this but I just see months (Years??) of meetings with little in the end.

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Re: Cleveland: Mall projects and programming
« Reply #154 on: September 23, 2010, 11:06:44 AM »
To be fair to the PD, they are also pointing out that structural design decisions made now will likely limit what can be done on the Mall for the next several decades, even if funding does become available.  But yeah, most of the info was already known, and it kind of presents as a disappointment stuff that we more or less already expected.  The last conceptual designs pretty much implied that the side "rooms" were where the action would be, beyond the grassy slope.

One good thing about these discrete rooms, perhaps, is that they may allow for incremental funding/sponsorship and construction, so we don't have to wait for a single huge slug of funding to see anything happen after the convention center is completed.
"Cleveland, as you see, is not an apple, but a bunch of grapes each of which has its own particular pattern-some large, others small, some round, others long and narrow, some sweet, others sour, some sound, others rotten throughout."  -Howard Whipple Green, 1932

Offline Punch

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Re: Cleveland: Mall projects and programming
« Reply #155 on: September 23, 2010, 01:02:18 PM »
As I said in the CC/MM thread, the Seattle based landscape architect who designed Millennium Park has been hired by MMPI to design the malls.  Just because there is no funding yet, doesn't mean there isn't any planning.
Did we really think Mike Holmgren was going to do the planning for the mall, or just the fundraising for what MMPI wants to do
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Re: Cleveland: Mall projects and programming
« Reply #156 on: September 23, 2010, 01:03:57 PM »
they are acting like a spectacular mall was somehow promised and it isn't being fulfilled. 'mammoth sculptures or fountains' were never in the plan
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Re: Cleveland: Mall projects and programming
« Reply #157 on: September 23, 2010, 01:50:34 PM »
As I said in the CC/MM thread, the Seattle based landscape architect who designed Millennium Park has been hired by MMPI to design the malls.  Just because there is no funding yet, doesn't mean there isn't any planning.
Did we really think Mike Holmgren was going to do the planning for the mall, or just the fundraising for what MMPI wants to do

Wait a sec though, design was one of the explicit mandates of the commission- through consultants, obviously.  Aside from funding and compatibility with Convention Center operations, MMPI shouldn't have the final word.  I'm not complaining about what's coming out of the process, because I like it, but the way it was announced or covered was kind of misleading if the the principal design element of Mall B (the grassy slope) has essentially been decided and, because of the roof structure, is essentially fixed for decades.

they are acting like a spectacular mall was somehow promised and it isn't being fulfilled. 'mammoth sculptures or fountains' were never in the plan

What plan?  There was all kinds of discussion about what would be cool on Mall B.  Until the grassy slope came out, there was no plan, just the surface restoration placeholder MMPI was obligated to deliver.  "The plan" was supposed to come out of the commission's final report.  Which it still will, but with significant structural constraints.
"Cleveland, as you see, is not an apple, but a bunch of grapes each of which has its own particular pattern-some large, others small, some round, others long and narrow, some sweet, others sour, some sound, others rotten throughout."  -Howard Whipple Green, 1932

Offline KJP

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Re: Cleveland: Mall projects and programming
« Reply #158 on: September 23, 2010, 02:10:57 PM »
The Cleveland Plain Dealer...
When news breaks, we fix it!

And when there is no news, we create it!!


We gotta give you saps, er readers some reason to crack open our fishwrap, catbox liner, er newspaper.
« Last Edit: September 23, 2010, 02:11:14 PM by KJP »
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Offline Punch

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Re: Cleveland: Mall projects and programming
« Reply #159 on: September 23, 2010, 02:19:47 PM »
As I said in the CC/MM thread, the Seattle based landscape architect who designed Millennium Park has been hired by MMPI to design the malls.  Just because there is no funding yet, doesn't mean there isn't any planning.
Did we really think Mike Holmgren was going to do the planning for the mall, or just the fundraising for what MMPI wants to do

Wait a sec though, design was one of the explicit mandates of the commission- through consultants, obviously.  Aside from funding and compatibility with Convention Center operations, MMPI shouldn't have the final word.  I'm not complaining about what's coming out of the process, because I like it, but the way it was announced or covered was kind of misleading if the the principal design element of Mall B (the grassy slope) has essentially been decided and, because of the roof structure, is essentially fixed for decades.

they are acting like a spectacular mall was somehow promised and it isn't being fulfilled. 'mammoth sculptures or fountains' were never in the plan

What plan?  There was all kinds of discussion about what would be cool on Mall B.  Until the grassy slope came out, there was no plan, just the surface restoration placeholder MMPI was obligated to deliver.  "The plan" was supposed to come out of the commission's final report.  Which it still will, but with significant structural constraints.

“Our priority in this stage of the process was the pairing of a local partner with an internationally renowned landscape design firm, insuring extensive local participation and input into this project,” said MMPI senior vice president Mark Falanga in a statement to media. “Everyone involved is very pleased with the pairing of and expected outcomes from GGN and local partner McKnight Associates.”

Two nonprofit organizations, ParkWorks Inc. and Cleveland Public Art, will work with MMPI to design the public spaces on the malls above the underground convention center.

http://crainscleveland.com/article/20100429/FREE/100429784#
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Offline MuRrAy HiLL

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Re: Cleveland: Mall projects and programming
« Reply #160 on: October 06, 2010, 09:20:19 PM »
Cleveland's new Group Plan Commission has a year to build a new vision for the downtown Mall
Published: Wednesday, October 06, 2010, 5:21 PM   
Steven Litt, The Plain Dealer

Imagine native prairie grasses rustling in lakefront breezes, luring butterflies and migratory birds to the downtown Mall.

Picture outdoor basketball games, volleyball tournaments, a splash park, playgrounds and a reflecting pool. Or think of striding along a five-kilometer loop at lunch on tree-shaded promenades with views of Lake Erie. All this and more could be in the works for the Mall, most of which will be rebuilt as part of the $465 million effort to construct a medical mart and new convention center in Cleveland.

The problem is that the basic budget for the project, sponsored by Cuyahoga County in partnership with MMPI Inc. of Chicago, includes $21.5 million for the Mall, an amount that won't buy much more than trees, turf and concrete.

http://blog.cleveland.com/architecture/2010/10/clevelands_new_group_plan_comm.html
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Re: Cleveland: Mall projects and programming
« Reply #161 on: October 06, 2010, 09:54:50 PM »
Nice.  A pedestrian path from W. 3rd to E. 9th makes sense.  So does putting a new entrance to the PA facing the mall and ending that silly divide.
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Re: Cleveland: Mall projects and programming
« Reply #162 on: October 06, 2010, 11:26:48 PM »
Lots to absorb there, but so far, it looks pretty awesome.   I like how they're trying to resuscitate elements of the old Burnham plan while also taking the spaces in brand new directions.  Good stuff.
"Cleveland, as you see, is not an apple, but a bunch of grapes each of which has its own particular pattern-some large, others small, some round, others long and narrow, some sweet, others sour, some sound, others rotten throughout."  -Howard Whipple Green, 1932

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Re: Cleveland: Mall projects and programming
« Reply #163 on: October 06, 2010, 11:38:59 PM »

The E. 3rd Street mews is a great idea and will pull the Mall up to Superior.
Awesome.
Just across the street from the Arcade's Superior entrance, I should say 'sort of' across from.
« Last Edit: October 06, 2010, 11:43:43 PM by Clueless,Ohio »
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Re: Cleveland: Mall projects and programming
« Reply #164 on: October 07, 2010, 11:09:08 AM »
Nice.  A pedestrian path from W. 3rd to E. 9th makes sense.  So does putting a new entrance to the PA facing the mall and ending that silly divide.


As I read the pop ups to the graphic image, the underground connection to Public Auditorium will be preserved.  Can someone verify that I read that right?

Offline MuRrAy HiLL

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Re: Cleveland: Mall projects and programming
« Reply #165 on: October 13, 2010, 03:38:38 PM »
Winter on the Mall? Designers of the medical mart and convention center are coming up with plans
Published: Wednesday, October 13, 2010, 3:48 PM     
 Steven Litt, The Plain Dealer


Cleveland, as everyone knows, is a place with spectacular winter weather, especially down by the lakefront.

LMN Architects and the landscape architecture firm of Gustafston Guthrie Nichol, both of Seattle, know this, and they're taking it into account in plans for the new medical mart and convention center in downtown Cleveland. "Certainly, we are deeply considering the four seasons in the design process, as we must do in all projects and climates," Shannon Nichol, of GGN, wrote in an email.

She was responding to an earlier email sent Friday by Cleveland architect Bill Gould, in response to a column about the future of the Mall, which will double as the roof of the convention center. The column was accompanied the green and leafy image you see atop this blog. 

"Cleveland is a Northern city like Minneapolis," Gould wrote. "The mall is deadly in winter. (Mid November to mid March ) I see no provisions for shelter or cover in bad weather."

http://blog.cleveland.com/architecture/2010/10/winter_on_the_mall_designers_o.html
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Re: Cleveland: Mall projects and programming
« Reply #166 on: October 13, 2010, 05:05:05 PM »
^Nice- some really great ideas in Nichol's response.  I guess sledding on the sloped Mall B roof was so obvious it didn't even need to be mentioned...
"Cleveland, as you see, is not an apple, but a bunch of grapes each of which has its own particular pattern-some large, others small, some round, others long and narrow, some sweet, others sour, some sound, others rotten throughout."  -Howard Whipple Green, 1932

Offline Punch

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Re: Cleveland: Mall projects and programming
« Reply #167 on: October 13, 2010, 05:18:06 PM »
But what about the connectivity to Tower City?

(sorry)

This whole project has the potential to have the biggest impact on the city since Gateway, maybe more, especially if the NCTC is born out of this.

I am exited what the group plan has in store for Public Hall.


Strap - they are probably waiting to unveil sledding as a WOW factor when they are ready to release plans to the public.

« Last Edit: October 13, 2010, 05:20:30 PM by punch »
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Re: Cleveland: Mall projects and programming
« Reply #168 on: December 16, 2010, 03:39:58 PM »
LMN Architects and GGN landscape architects propose new visions for downtown Cleveland to Group Plan Commission

http://blog.cleveland.com/architecture/2010/12/lmn_architects_and_ggn_landsca.html

The article purports to link to a PDF of the presentation, but I can't find it.
"Cleveland, as you see, is not an apple, but a bunch of grapes each of which has its own particular pattern-some large, others small, some round, others long and narrow, some sweet, others sour, some sound, others rotten throughout."  -Howard Whipple Green, 1932

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Re: Cleveland: Mall projects and programming
« Reply #169 on: December 16, 2010, 03:49:26 PM »
That is the worst rendering I have ever seen.  Did they use water colors?

And while I understood the idea of turning the roofs of those garages into parks, I am NOT in favor of bulldozing the entire garages.  We need to bulldoze our parking lots, not our garages.
« Last Edit: December 16, 2010, 03:50:59 PM by Hts121 »
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Re: Cleveland: Mall projects and programming
« Reply #170 on: December 16, 2010, 03:53:51 PM »
^Probably colored pencils.  I don't think it was meant to be anything more than a rough sketch as part of much longer presentation.  Doesn't matter; that specific proposal is DOA for the foreseeable future.

 Oh man, they just edited the article to remove the part where it said "The PDF is available here" or something like that.  I want to see it!
"Cleveland, as you see, is not an apple, but a bunch of grapes each of which has its own particular pattern-some large, others small, some round, others long and narrow, some sweet, others sour, some sound, others rotten throughout."  -Howard Whipple Green, 1932

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Re: Cleveland: Mall projects and programming
« Reply #171 on: December 16, 2010, 04:15:02 PM »
^^That's what I was thinking!  So they want to yank out some parking garages and put in their place some dirt single tracks that roll past scrub brush and weeds along railroad tracks.   Very innovative!!  Well at least that is what it looks like from the "artist" rendering..  :weird:

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Re: Cleveland: Mall projects and programming
« Reply #172 on: December 16, 2010, 10:04:04 PM »
Think Big. Build Big. Go Big. Do it Cleveland.

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Re: Cleveland: Mall projects and programming
« Reply #173 on: December 16, 2010, 10:07:08 PM »
Draft - For Review Only

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Re: Cleveland: Mall projects and programming
« Reply #174 on: December 17, 2010, 02:33:35 AM »
Whats the status of the North Coast Transportation Center now that 3C is dead? I didnt see that in any of the renderings

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