Author Topic: Cleveland: Downtown: Mall Development and News  (Read 90062 times)

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Offline MyTwoSense

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Re: Cleveland: Mall projects and programming
« Reply #105 on: June 30, 2010, 11:59:46 AM »
exactly. this team won't design the malls/ps... they will move it forward.

Shoot, I was seriously hoping for some goal posts and an on-deck circle.

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Offline StrapHanger

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Re: Cleveland: Mall projects and programming
« Reply #106 on: June 30, 2010, 12:02:42 PM »
I had thought the commission was also going to coordinate the designs of the two public spaces to ensure they were complimentary.  Essentially, someone has to allocate the laundry list of desired uses/programming between the two.  I guess it's less clear to me now who's going to  be making those types of decisions.
"Cleveland, as you see, is not an apple, but a bunch of grapes each of which has its own particular pattern-some large, others small, some round, others long and narrow, some sweet, others sour, some sound, others rotten throughout."  -Howard Whipple Green, 1932

Offline 3231

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Re: Cleveland: Mall projects and programming
« Reply #107 on: June 30, 2010, 12:05:08 PM »
I find this whole process to be a major step for the mayor. Bringing big powerful (business) minds together into one room has not been his style in the past. This is an exciting moment for Cleveland.

This is the exact sort of thinking that was not present during our 90s building boom (gateway, RRHF, CBS). While those projects were in no means failures (well, CBS..), imagine if we had thought about how to create better linkages between those projects.

Don't think that this is just about getting a better Mall built. This is just as much about linking the casino, FEB, Canal Basin, PS, NCH, etc.

Offline MyTwoSense

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Re: Cleveland: Mall projects and programming
« Reply #108 on: June 30, 2010, 12:19:55 PM »
I find this whole process to be a major step for the mayor. Bringing big powerful (business) minds together into one room has not been his style in the past. This is an exciting moment for Cleveland.

This is the exact sort of thinking that was not present during our 90s building boom (gateway, RRHF, CBS). While those projects were in no means failures (well, CBS..), imagine if we had thought about how to create better linkages between those projects.

Don't think that this is just about getting a better Mall built. This is just as much about linking the casino, FEB, Canal Basin, PS, NCH, etc.

That indeed is great!  :clap:
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Offline StrapHanger

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Re: Cleveland: Mall projects and programming
« Reply #109 on: June 30, 2010, 12:23:00 PM »
^^Actually, I think I disagree a bit- the 1990s big ticket development boom was heavily driven by a room full of powerful business interests.  I don't mean that cynically.  Cleveland Tomorrow played a huge role in Gateway and RRHOF.  And earlier in Tower City and Playhouse Square.  I guess I don't see this commission as much of an innovation- maybe for the current Mayor, but not for the city.  As McCleveland said, it's  more like a return to the 1990s and the public/private partnerships...which as you pointed out gave us some mixed results.  Results none the less though, I suppose.

EDIT:

Don't think that this is just about getting a better Mall built. This is just as much about linking the casino, FEB, Canal Basin, PS, NCH, etc.

I hear ya, but should the city planners inside city hall be doing some of this, with or without a commission?  Honest question- I know it's influence changes depending on who's running the place.  In the 1990s, it seemed as if Hunter Morrison, Mike White and the CEOs on Cleveland Tomorrow more or less decided how the big projects would play out.
« Last Edit: June 30, 2010, 12:36:23 PM by StrapHanger »
"Cleveland, as you see, is not an apple, but a bunch of grapes each of which has its own particular pattern-some large, others small, some round, others long and narrow, some sweet, others sour, some sound, others rotten throughout."  -Howard Whipple Green, 1932

Online tedders55

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Re: Cleveland: Mall projects and programming
« Reply #110 on: June 30, 2010, 12:30:42 PM »
^Yeah, I can't argue with you.  It's tempting to to just adopt a design without considering the buses and tell RTA to deal with it...  But public square is our main ground transportation hub, so at the very least, it would be great if the commission had more than one or two people who had ever taken RTA (seriously, I doubt it's more than a couple people).

I don't mean to overreact here, I just think the commission could have been a little larger to include some different types of voices.  If Parkworks is going to be doing the real liaising with the design consultants with the commission really just in charge of lining up financing, then I'm happy enough.

You really want RTA involved in this?  I wouldn't say they have great vision, planning, or any of the tools to make this work.

As a stakeholder? Yes, I do. They are the project sponsor for the intermodal transportation center, so they'd better be involved in some form.

I agree here that they should be informed and make observations of how changes may affect routes, but I would not want them actually on the commission making decisions.  They need to show that they can take care of their own room before they are allowed to advise on anther's room.

Offline MyTwoSense

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Re: Cleveland: Mall projects and programming
« Reply #111 on: June 30, 2010, 12:32:56 PM »
^Yeah, I can't argue with you.  It's tempting to to just adopt a design without considering the buses and tell RTA to deal with it...  But public square is our main ground transportation hub, so at the very least, it would be great if the commission had more than one or two people who had ever taken RTA (seriously, I doubt it's more than a couple people).

I don't mean to overreact here, I just think the commission could have been a little larger to include some different types of voices.  If Parkworks is going to be doing the real liaising with the design consultants with the commission really just in charge of lining up financing, then I'm happy enough.

You really want RTA involved in this?  I wouldn't say they have great vision, planning, or any of the tools to make this work.

As a stakeholder? Yes, I do. They are the project sponsor for the intermodal transportation center, so they'd better be involved in some form.

I agree here that they should be informed and make observations of how changes may affect routes, but I would not want them actually on the commission making decisions.  They need to show that they can take care of their own room before they are allowed to advise on anther's room.

Do you understand what their role is/will be??
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Offline McCleveland

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Re: Cleveland: Mall projects and programming
« Reply #112 on: June 30, 2010, 12:36:17 PM »
^Actually, I think I disagree a bit- the 1990s big ticket development boom was heavily driven by a room full of powerful business interests.  I don't mean that cynically.  Cleveland Tomorrow played a huge role in Gateway and RRHOF.  And earlier in Tower City and Playhouse Square.  I guess I don't see this commission as much of an innovation- maybe for the current Mayor, but not for the city.  As McCleveland said, it's  more like a return to the 1990s and the public/private partnerships...which as you pointed out gave us some mixed results.  Results none the less though, I suppose.

Public - Private partnerships... but... 3231 is right.  This is a collaboration about linkages, people finally seem to be coming to the realization that individual projects are nice, but a great public realm is needed to connect those places to really drive private investment.  I've not seen anything like this in my lifetime.  When you hear people talking these days there is a LOT of synergies and collaborations taking place.  I too think this is an incredibly exciting moment for cleveland, I think more and more people are starting to "get it".
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Re: Cleveland: Mall projects and programming
« Reply #113 on: June 30, 2010, 12:42:59 PM »
^Yeah, I can't argue with you.  It's tempting to to just adopt a design without considering the buses and tell RTA to deal with it...  But public square is our main ground transportation hub, so at the very least, it would be great if the commission had more than one or two people who had ever taken RTA (seriously, I doubt it's more than a couple people).

I don't mean to overreact here, I just think the commission could have been a little larger to include some different types of voices.  If Parkworks is going to be doing the real liaising with the design consultants with the commission really just in charge of lining up financing, then I'm happy enough.

You really want RTA involved in this?  I wouldn't say they have great vision, planning, or any of the tools to make this work.

As a stakeholder? Yes, I do. They are the project sponsor for the intermodal transportation center, so they'd better be involved in some form.

I agree here that they should be informed and make observations of how changes may affect routes, but I would not want them actually on the commission making decisions.  They need to show that they can take care of their own room before they are allowed to advise on anther's room.

Do you understand what their role is/will be??
Right now I don't believe they are involved with the commission.  So as I understand it their role is doing nothing (insert witty comment of choice).  Strap indicated that he wanted them on the commission, I'm not sure that would be a productive addition.  I do agree that they should be involved with the process in a limited capacity, but I think that RTA has other items they should be worried about.  Like not letting grant funding for the NCTC slip through their fingers.

Offline StrapHanger

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Re: Cleveland: Mall projects and programming
« Reply #114 on: June 30, 2010, 01:05:53 PM »
^Actually, I think I disagree a bit- the 1990s big ticket development boom was heavily driven by a room full of powerful business interests.  I don't mean that cynically.  Cleveland Tomorrow played a huge role in Gateway and RRHOF.  And earlier in Tower City and Playhouse Square.  I guess I don't see this commission as much of an innovation- maybe for the current Mayor, but not for the city.  As McCleveland said, it's  more like a return to the 1990s and the public/private partnerships...which as you pointed out gave us some mixed results.  Results none the less though, I suppose.

Public - Private partnerships... but... 3231 is right.  This is a collaboration about linkages, people finally seem to be coming to the realization that individual projects are nice, but a great public realm is needed to connect those places to really drive private investment.  I've not seen anything like this in my lifetime.  When you hear people talking these days there is a LOT of synergies and collaborations taking place.  I too think this is an incredibly exciting moment for cleveland, I think more and more people are starting to "get it".

I certainly like the way you and 3231 describe today's planning landscape.  I guess I would like to know more about how this commission fits into the collaboration, and I'm sure more info will come along.  Hunter Morrison's planning staff and the corporate titans during the White administration were not totally oblivious to linkages- hence Civic Vision 2000, the Waterfront Line and the Tower City/Gateway walkway - there was a LOT  of excitement back then about how all the pieces were fitting together.  I guess I was just a bit chastened by the results of the 1990s process and its heavy reliance on the city's business elite.   I guess one difference is the current supporting cast (Parkworks, the current CPC) is sufficiently clued in to help deliver a good product.
"Cleveland, as you see, is not an apple, but a bunch of grapes each of which has its own particular pattern-some large, others small, some round, others long and narrow, some sweet, others sour, some sound, others rotten throughout."  -Howard Whipple Green, 1932

Offline McCleveland

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Re: Cleveland: Mall projects and programming
« Reply #115 on: June 30, 2010, 01:10:20 PM »
I would liken any linkages then soley to the then head of RTA, and transportation linkages.  Most of the developments were separately planned with little thought given to public spaces and how they can affect future investment.
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Offline StrapHanger

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Re: Cleveland: Mall projects and programming
« Reply #116 on: June 30, 2010, 01:18:21 PM »
^I don't know, I still think you're being a little harsh on the process in 1990s- Civic Vicion 2000 (and I'm betting you have an old floppy copy in your office like I do :) ) illustrated a lot of the same spin-off development opportunities and public space improvements we're still talking about today, including just north of the Mall (linking to the waterfront), and just east of NCH.

In any case, I am happy to agree to disagree about the 1990s and happy to concede that these are new projects, with a new cast of planners, designers and corporate muckety-mucks.  So aside from some lingering uncertainty about the precise role of the commission and how it will interact with the rest of the parties, I am happy to look forward and get excited :).
« Last Edit: June 30, 2010, 01:20:44 PM by StrapHanger »
"Cleveland, as you see, is not an apple, but a bunch of grapes each of which has its own particular pattern-some large, others small, some round, others long and narrow, some sweet, others sour, some sound, others rotten throughout."  -Howard Whipple Green, 1932

Offline McCleveland

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Re: Cleveland: Mall projects and programming
« Reply #117 on: June 30, 2010, 01:34:52 PM »
Yes civic vision 2000 was pretty (sorry, no floppy, but if you have an extra i'd love a copy! :)) Was any of it done?

I guess my point is, for all the building in the 90's there wasn't a single dynamic urban public space created.  Primarily because there was no real involvement from the private sector to make any of those "civic visions" a reality.
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Offline w28th

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Re: Cleveland: Mall projects and programming
« Reply #118 on: June 30, 2010, 02:06:23 PM »
For those that are saying these peopleare not to be thinking about the design of this,

"Their role is really to focus on appropriate design and look at funding opportunities, but not by going to the city or the county," said Ken Silliman, the mayor's chief of staff.

There isn't a single person on this panel that has any credentials or experience in organizing the design, planning, and implimentation of a large urban space.  I really expect nothing from this panel.
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Offline StrapHanger

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Re: Cleveland: Mall projects and programming
« Reply #119 on: June 30, 2010, 02:35:14 PM »
Yes civic vision 2000 was pretty (sorry, no floppy, but if you have an extra i'd love a copy! :)) Was any of it done?

EDIT: ha- by floppy I didn't mean an old floppy disk, just that the oversized, soft bound volumes were big and flexible and cumbersome to store.

Well after tearing apart my office, I can only find the Citywide plan and not the downtown plan.  They are big and annoying to pack and put on shelves so who knows what I did with it over the years  Anyway, going from memory alone, yes, lots of what was shown in Civic Vision 2000 Downtown Plan (actually published in 1988, I believe) was done: Gateway, the WFL, North Coast Harbor, Star Plaza.  And with lots of private sector involvement.  And not just any private sector, but executives from many of the same companies/foundations represented on this commission.  The involvement of corporate Cleveland in making things happen in the 1990s was widely heralded and was turned into a HBS case study.  Again, I'm not exactly pleased with the mega projects of the 1990s- I am certainly not defending that legacy.  And I'm not stuck in the past- I know this is a different era and new projects.  Just explaining why I'm just a little bit wary celebrating this current commission as an innovation and why I am not totally convinced it will deliver the best results if their role really includes focusing on appropriate design as Ken Silliman describes it (thanks w28th for the quote).
« Last Edit: June 30, 2010, 02:38:15 PM by StrapHanger »
"Cleveland, as you see, is not an apple, but a bunch of grapes each of which has its own particular pattern-some large, others small, some round, others long and narrow, some sweet, others sour, some sound, others rotten throughout."  -Howard Whipple Green, 1932

Offline MyTwoSense

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Re: Cleveland: Mall projects and programming
« Reply #120 on: June 30, 2010, 02:37:47 PM »
For those that are saying these peopleare not to be thinking about the design of this,

"Their role is really to focus on appropriate design and look at funding opportunities, but not by going to the city or the county," said Ken Silliman, the mayor's chief of staff.

There isn't a single person on this panel that has any credentials or experience in organizing the design, planning, and implementation of a large urban space.  I really expect nothing from this panel.

I interpret this to mean the group will be instrumental in finding an urban designer or work in conjunction with those that have experience in urban building design.
 
Are we getting to caught up in the minutia, and not looking at the bigger picture?
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Offline KJP

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Re: Cleveland: Mall projects and programming
« Reply #121 on: June 30, 2010, 02:38:59 PM »
I have only B&W photocopies of Civic Vision 2000, and then only of the areas north of Lakeside and a little bit of the Warehouse District.
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Offline McCleveland

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Re: Cleveland: Mall projects and programming
« Reply #122 on: June 30, 2010, 02:47:49 PM »
the article also specifically mentions breaking down into four groups, only one of which will focus on "design" of the malls, the other groups focus on financing, community participation, and governance (i.e. programming and maintenance).  This really isn't much different than the public square task force that produced work from FO.  I think it is a safe bet that outside of some "brainstorming sessions" about what they would like to see out of these spaces and how they would function... not much differently than if 10 or 15 of us got together... that is the only real "design work" this comission will do, at some point a firm will be brought in for that.
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Re: Cleveland: Mall projects and programming
« Reply #123 on: June 30, 2010, 02:48:20 PM »
^^Yes

Offline McCleveland

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Re: Cleveland: Mall projects and programming
« Reply #124 on: June 30, 2010, 02:48:30 PM »
Are we getting to caught up in the minutia, and not looking at the bigger picture?

yes.
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Offline StrapHanger

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Re: Cleveland: Mall projects and programming
« Reply #125 on: June 30, 2010, 02:49:59 PM »
Well I still can't find my big full color guy, which annoys me to no end after all the times I've had to fit it into a box of books over the years as part of my nomadic existence.  But I did find some pictures of it on UrbanOhio!  http://www.urbanohio.com/forum2/index.php?topic=13775.0
"Cleveland, as you see, is not an apple, but a bunch of grapes each of which has its own particular pattern-some large, others small, some round, others long and narrow, some sweet, others sour, some sound, others rotten throughout."  -Howard Whipple Green, 1932

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Re: Cleveland: Mall projects and programming
« Reply #126 on: June 30, 2010, 05:06:06 PM »
By the way...who is going to the first meeting and reporting back....I don't trust the PD to be accurate.

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Re: Cleveland: Mall projects and programming
« Reply #127 on: July 12, 2010, 09:48:00 AM »
From Litt:

A new Group Plan Commission for Cleveland has a chance to revise Daniel Burnham's historic vision for downtown
Published: Monday, July 12, 2010, 9:45 AM 
   Steven Litt, The Plain Dealer


CLEVELAND, Ohio -- Chicago architect Daniel Burnham left a colossal imprint on Cleveland more than a century ago with his 1903 Group Plan for downtown.

Now, in 2010, Cleveland Mayor Frank Jackson is asking a new Group Plan Commission to revisit the grand but sterile mall and the zone around it. The area has never lived up to Burnham's original vision, in part because the train station ended up in the Terminal Tower complex.

Inspired by more than $1 billion in new downtown projects on the horizon, including a casino, medical mart and convention center, Jackson sees an opportunity to improve a large swath of downtown, from Public Square to the Lake Erie waterfront, including the mall.

The question is whether the new commission, which meets for the first time Thursday at 7:30 a.m. in Room 514 at Cleveland City Hall, can rise to the occasion or whether it caves to pressures that have led to mediocre planning and civic design in the city's recent past.

http://blog.cleveland.com/architecture/2010/07/group_plan.html

« Last Edit: July 12, 2010, 09:49:30 AM by MuRrAy HiLL »
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Offline KJP

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Re: Cleveland: Mall projects and programming
« Reply #128 on: July 12, 2010, 11:45:11 AM »
Good column. I usually like Litt's stuff.
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Offline StrangeBrew

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Re: Cleveland: Mall projects and programming
« Reply #129 on: August 05, 2010, 10:43:48 PM »
I'm not sure if this comment should be in the CC/MM thread or the Mall discussion, but question: after checking out the revised plans at http://bocc.cuyahogacounty.us/pdf_bocc/en-US/CCMM-08052010-Update.pdf, it occurred to me that while a raised view of the lake is a great idea, will the designers also include an improved pedestrian bridge linking Mall C to the lakefront?  Does anyone know if this be part of LMN's plans or the landscape architect/New Block Group Committee? 

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Re: Cleveland: Mall projects and programming
« Reply #130 on: August 06, 2010, 09:07:52 AM »
^ I think that's the plan of the intermodal transportation center where the Amtrak station is located now.

http://blog.cleveland.com/metro/2010/06/intermodal_transportation_cent.html

Offline MuRrAy HiLL

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Re: Cleveland: Mall projects and programming
« Reply #131 on: August 06, 2010, 09:11:49 AM »
^ I think that's the plan of the intermodal transportation center where the Amtrak station is located now.

http://blog.cleveland.com/metro/2010/06/intermodal_transportation_cent.html

Not if GOP candidate John Kasich gets elected Governor :(....:

"I don't support a 39 mph train, OK? It's not going to happen if I'm governor, OK?" Kasich said. "If you want the train, I hope you can get over that and vote for me anyway. But you're not going to get that train."

 http://www.cleveland.com/open/index.ssf/2010/08/john_kasich_yvette_mcgee_brown.html

Unless we build it just for Cleveland...
« Last Edit: August 06, 2010, 09:12:11 AM by MuRrAy HiLL »
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Offline ccars

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Re: Cleveland: Mall projects and programming
« Reply #132 on: August 06, 2010, 09:15:56 AM »
I think the intermodal center is the result of a federal funds grant that's separate from the 3C rail project. RTA already gave about $300k to the city for planning. Of course, to these people that's a thimble's worth of cash for all the planning and talking that's going to happen for the next millennium.

I for one hope (and think) that steam will pick up on this project if the Medical Mart construction gets underway (and they say groundbreaking might happen by Oct/Nov.)

Offline StrapHanger

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Re: Cleveland: Mall projects and programming
« Reply #133 on: August 06, 2010, 09:23:12 AM »
^I think MH's point is that the reason d'etre for an intermodal center sort of evaporates if you take away one of the modes.

Fun thought that occurred to me this morning: a sloped lawn on Mall B could make a great wintertime sledding ground for the kids.  Coupled with a skating rink at the south end of Mall B and some wintery concessions, could be a bad/a$$ off season family attraction.
"Cleveland, as you see, is not an apple, but a bunch of grapes each of which has its own particular pattern-some large, others small, some round, others long and narrow, some sweet, others sour, some sound, others rotten throughout."  -Howard Whipple Green, 1932

Offline Punch

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Re: Cleveland: Mall projects and programming
« Reply #134 on: August 06, 2010, 09:28:19 AM »
Strap, send that idea to Parkworks!
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Re: Cleveland: Mall projects and programming
« Reply #135 on: August 06, 2010, 02:31:34 PM »
strap... nice! punch +1
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Re: Cleveland: Mall projects and programming
« Reply #136 on: August 06, 2010, 02:44:23 PM »
^I think MH's point is that the reason d'etre for an intermodal center sort of evaporates if you take away one of the modes.

Fun thought that occurred to me this morning: a sloped lawn on Mall B could make a great wintertime sledding ground for the kids.  Coupled with a skating rink at the south end of Mall B and some wintery concessions, could be a bad/a$$ off season family attraction.

There is still Amtrak passenger rail service to/from that location, and there's several plans for restructuring and expanding train service to Cleveland. So even if 3C doesn't happen for a while (it will be impossible for Ohio to remain an isolated black hole forever), there are still other near-term opportunities.

And, yes, I was also thinking that sledding would be awesome there.
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Offline ClevelandOhio

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Re: Cleveland: Mall projects and programming
« Reply #137 on: August 07, 2010, 09:44:53 AM »
look at that bridge


Offline KJP

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Re: Cleveland: Mall projects and programming
« Reply #138 on: August 19, 2010, 03:04:32 PM »

This is a big city and "impressions" on the street is what marketers are looking for and area's around convetion centers are key locations. 
 

Cleveland isn't a big city anymore. But even big cities have such linkages: Toronto, Seattle, Minneapolis, Atlanta, Montreal, Chicago and even some city on the Hudson....

http://theweblicist.com/wordpress/category/landmarks-buildings-statues-and-monuments/west-avenue-pedestrian-walkway/
« Last Edit: August 19, 2010, 03:07:50 PM by KJP »
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Offline MyTwoSense

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Re: Cleveland: Mall projects and programming
« Reply #139 on: August 19, 2010, 04:05:31 PM »
KJP now you're playing the semnatics game to fit what you like.
 
I dont believe they are necessary.  Now that bridge we see picture for the worlds fair.  I can dig that.
 
But underground linkages, goes against us fighting for more usefull street level retail.  Why have it if we're going to send people from place to place underground?
 
 
my 2 ˘     Please Sell Crazy Someplace Else....We Have Excess Inventory Here!!

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