Author Topic: Cleveland: West Shore commuter rail  (Read 186698 times)

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Offline Boffo

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Re: Cleveland: West Shore commuter rail
« Reply #700 on: June 03, 2011, 10:05:48 AM »
Don't believe a whole lot that comes from the Morning Journal. I used to live in Lorain and they could never get any facts right in their stories.

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Re: Cleveland: West Shore commuter rail
« Reply #701 on: June 03, 2011, 10:09:42 AM »
They've interviewed me often over the past 20 years, so I'm well acquainted with them. I just like keeping the pressure on the media to avoid being lazy.
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Offline CLEJoe

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Re: Cleveland: West Shore commuter rail
« Reply #702 on: September 21, 2011, 09:00:33 AM »
Just rolling around the transit threads and came across this. Never heard of it! Any update on its progress?

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Re: Cleveland: West Shore commuter rail
« Reply #703 on: September 21, 2011, 04:17:42 PM »
It is in a partial alternatives analysis, but a full FTA-compliant AA cannot be conducted due to lack of funds. There will be public meetings coming up soon, so look for updates -- especially at the West Shore website and Facebook page (http://www.ridewestshore.com/ and http://www.facebook.com/ridewestshore.

Look for employer-subsidized bus service to Lorain and Erie counties as a possible initial step forward.
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Offline Nexis4Jersey

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Re: Cleveland: West Shore commuter rail
« Reply #704 on: September 26, 2011, 12:12:49 AM »
What kind of trains would this line use?

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Re: Cleveland: West Shore commuter rail
« Reply #705 on: September 26, 2011, 08:32:16 AM »
Way too early to be able to answer that. The planning hasn't advanced far enough to identify what is the best mode for this corridor. The early returns show that rail between Lorain and Tower City would perform best, but if there's no money then bus would have to be considered. There is even some question as to whether this corridor will have any public transit beyond what it has now, considering the two project-sponsor agencies in Lorain County do not have the funding to do anything right now.
"Greater Cleveland is last in the country in number of jobs accessible in typical commute distance, creating a huge drag on economy and more air & water pollution."-- Vibrant NEO

Offline KJP

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Re: Cleveland: West Shore commuter rail
« Reply #706 on: October 05, 2011, 08:54:02 AM »
Well at least someone got to commute into downtown Cleveland on a really nice train on the West Shore Corridor tracks through Lakewood this morning....






In the 1980s, a few months after the Conrail business train passed down a line, things would start disappearing from along the tracks like old depots, interlocking towers, etc. Sometimes a rail line would disappear too. I hope that's not the case from today's visit by the NS biz train.

The train apparently stopped for a few minutes on top of the tall Rocky River trestle to take in the view or so NS execs could look down at the condition of the bridge. My Rocky River spy called me to let me know the train was coming. So I walked quickly about 500 feet to the tracks expecting to arrive just as the train did. But as I looked west down the 4-mile straightaway, there was no sign of the train. It would be a few more minutes before the train could be heard and then seen.
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Offline KJP

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Re: Cleveland: West Shore commuter rail
« Reply #707 on: October 11, 2011, 08:11:27 AM »
Federally funded transportation projects take an average of 10 years to go from idea to ribbon-cutting. But the $400 million is not correct. The reporter added all of the options on the table -- two bus options and two rail options.

The public meetings are coming up this month to hear more details, including one in Lakewood. I'm trying to get this list from the consulting team.

Commuter rail system for area called 10 to 15 years in future (with video)
Published: Tuesday, October 11, 2011
By ALLISON STROUSE
astrouse@MorningJournal.com

CARLISLE TOWNSHIP — Anyone hoping to see a commuter transit system connecting Erie, Lorain, and Cuyahoga counties might have to wait awhile.

The Lorain County Community Alliance, in a meeting yesterday, talked about putting in the commuter railway that would allow people to travel from Sandusky to Cleveland, Tim Rosenberger, technical specialist with Parsons Brinckerhoff, said a rail system is still 10 to 15 years away.

“If you’re ever going to have a successful commuter rail, you have to have successful busing into downtown Cleveland,” Rosenberger said.

READ MORE AT:
http://www.crainscleveland.com/apps/pbcs.dll/section?category=framelink&link=www.morningjournal.com%2farticles%2f2011%2f10%2f11%2fnews%2fmj5130643.txt&oas=www.morningjournal.com_articles_2011_10_11_news_mj5130643.txt
"Greater Cleveland is last in the country in number of jobs accessible in typical commute distance, creating a huge drag on economy and more air & water pollution."-- Vibrant NEO

Offline KJP

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Re: Cleveland: West Shore commuter rail
« Reply #708 on: October 17, 2011, 07:56:23 PM »
October 17, 2011

Public Meetings on Proposed WestShore Corridor Transportation Project Plan

GREATER CLEVELAND – In the near future, residents, regional visitors and commuter could have safe, convenient new options for travel between major points in Erie, Lorain and Cuyahoga Counties including commuter bus and rail, according to planners on the WestShore Transportation Project. However, new local funding sources must be identified, further studies undertaken, and railroad and intercounty agreements inked before a major new service like commuter rail service is ready to operate.

On behalf of project co-sponsors Lorain County Board of Commissioners/Lorain County Transit and Lorain County Community Alliance, the WestShore Commuter Rail Task Force and communities in Lorain County, Erie County and Cuyahoga County, will hold three public meetings to present study findings to-date for recommended travel options, costs, benefits and funding/financing for the WestShore Corridor.  Public comments are needed in order to finalize the proposed package of options designed to improve longer-distance public transit service between the WestShore counties of Erie, Lorain and Cuyahoga.

The public is invited and encouraged to attend one or more of the following meetings:

Cuyahoga County—October 24, 2011               
Lakewood City Hall                                     
Auditorium                                               
12650 Detroit Avenue                               
Lakewood, OH 44107                               
6-8 pm                                                   

Lorain County—October 26, 2011
Black River Landing
421 Black River Lane
Lorain, OH 44052
6-8 pm

Erie County -- October 25, 2011
Erie County Administration Building
3rd Floor Commissioner’s Chambers
2900 Columbus Avenue
Sandusky, OH 44870
6-8 pm



For more information, please contact Tim Rosenberger, PB at 216-832-2952, Nancy Lyon Stadler, Michael Baker, Jr., Inc. at 216-776-6814 or Marissa Beechuk, BrownFlynn at
440-484-0100, ext.211.

********************************************************************************************************************************

WESTSHORE CORRIDOR TRANSPORTATION STUDY BACKGROUND

The WestShore Corridor Transportation Project (WCTP) seeks to address the lack of public transportation options for travel in the WestShore Corridor, which extends from downtown Cleveland through western Cuyahoga, Lorain, and Erie Counties to Sandusky. The need for improvements is based on several factors including a lack of public transit options for inter-county travel, lack of transit options within Lorain and Erie Counties, and the need for more sustainable land use patterns in suburban growth areas.

While the development of commuter rail service along the Norfolk Southern (former Nickel Plate) rail line that passes through Lakewood, Bay Village and much of northern Lorain County has been the goal for many citizens and political leaders in the WestShore Corridor, the analysis conducted for the WCTP indicates that a transit market must first be established within the WestShore Corridor before commuter rail can become a reality. Currently, commuter bus services to downtown Cleveland operate from Medina, Summit, Portage and Lake counties. Lorain County is the most populous county surrounding Cleveland that does not have bus service to downtown Cleveland. The WCTP suggests that an inter-county transit market could be established in several phases.

In Phase 1, during the next five years, would include implementation of commuter bus service between Lorain County and downtown Cleveland.  The proposed service would include basic commuter bus service between the city of Lorain and downtown Cleveland with stops at Black River Landing, Midway Mall, and two new park and ride lots located in Sheffield and Avon. In this phase, Lorain County Transit would be restored to its pre-2009 service levels to distribute passengers throughout Lorain County.

Implementing this service would cost approximately $11 million per year in buying buses and outfitting park-and-ride lots in Lorain County. The annual estimated annual operating cost of Phase 1 is $8.3 million. While commuter bus service is made operational, work would continue on the analysis of the benefits and environmental impacts of the commuter rail service to allow for that service to be developed in the future. Discussions with the Norfolk-Southern Railroad about use of their rail line for commuter rail service began as part of the West Shore study, and would continue through the first phase of development.

In Phase 2 (Years 6-10), commuter bus service in Lorain County would expand, and commuter bus service between Erie County and downtown Cleveland would begin. In this phase two new bus routes would be started to supplmenet the route operating between Lorain and downtown Cleveland. One new route would operate between Sheffield and downtown Cleveland, with one park and ride lot located in Sheffield and two in Avon. A third commuter bus route would begin providing service between Sandusky and downtown Cleveland, with stops at park and ride facilities located in Sandusky, Huron, and Vermilion.

The estimated cost of this second phase of service would be about $16 million for additional buses and park and ride lot, and about $10 million in additional annual operating cost.

Also in this phase, regional transit officials would complete the analysis of commuter rail service and reach an agreement with the Norfolk Southern railroad regarding use of their rail line, and would begin the design of improvements to the rail line, stations and other infrastructure needed to operate commuter rail service.
WESTSHORE CORRIDOR TRANSPORTATION STUDY BACKGROUND - Continued
Page 2


In Phase 3 (Years 10-15), commuter rail service would begin operation and would replace some or all of the commuter bus services in Lorain County, and would perhaps replace some bus services in Cuyahoga County.  The commuter rail service would operate between Black River Landing in Lorain and downtown Cleveland. Stations would be located in Lorain, Sheffield, Avon, Westlake, Bay Village, Rocky River, Lakewood and Cleveland. It is hoped that many of the park and ride facilities developed in the first two phases of the project would now function as park and ride lots at the commuter rail stations. Commuter bus service would continue to be operated between Sandusky and Cleveland as in Phase 2. Extension of commuter rail service to Sandusky and other Erie County locations would be re-examined as a possibility for the future.

The WestShore Study has estimated that it would cost nearly $160 million in improvements to the Norfolk Southern rail line and associated stations and park-and-ride lots, and in purchasing new rail cars and other equipment, to operate a startup commuter rail service.  The estimated annual cost of operating the commuter rail and commuter bus services in Phase 3 is approximately $17 million.

There are many challenges to developing intercounty transit service in the WestShore corridor. The most important of these is the establishment of a sustainable funding source to support the service. Currently, Lorain and Erie Counties lack a secure dedicated funding source for mass transit service to match the 1% county wide sales tax that supports the Greater Cleveland Regional Transit Authority (GCRTA) in Cuyahoga County. A source for those county’s portions of the cost of operating the service would be necessary to allow service to be operated. Identifying a potential operator of the commuter bus and rail service-whether it be Lorain County Transit (LCT), GCRTA, Erie County Transit, some combination of those agencies, or a new agency, is another issue that must be resolved before operation can begin. The high cost of commuter rail may be beyond the funding capacity of the region at this time, but the phased approach may allow for the more fiscally manageable commuter bus service to begin operating while the region works toward the goal of developing commuter rail. 

The budget for this phase of the WestShore Corridor Transportation Project is $423,000 and was managed by Lorain County.  Funds for 80% of this budget came from a Federal appropriation secured by Congresswoman Betty Sutton in 2008.  The remaining 20% of the project budget was contributed by local sources including the private sector, municipalities, transit authorities and government agencies from all three project area counties. Representatives from the Northeast Ohio Areawide Coordinating Agency (NOACA), GCRTA, ODOT, Lorain County Transit and other organizations helped in manage the project via the WestShore Corridor Commuter Rail Task Force.

Public comments will be accepted through November 2, 2011 at WestshoreAA@pbworld.com.
"Greater Cleveland is last in the country in number of jobs accessible in typical commute distance, creating a huge drag on economy and more air & water pollution."-- Vibrant NEO

Offline biker16

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Re: Cleveland: West Shore commuter rail
« Reply #709 on: October 19, 2011, 11:04:39 PM »
I am looking forward to the Lakewood meeting on Monday, Trying to convince more people to show up too.

I find the West-shore's Facebook page is in desperate need of help, they have event and hey don't bother to inform any followers of the page about that event.

I find curious how few people know about this project.
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Offline KJP

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Re: Cleveland: West Shore commuter rail
« Reply #710 on: October 20, 2011, 01:10:20 AM »
I've posted it on All Aboard Ohio's three Facebook pages and Tweeted it, too! We're trying to get the word out. Friend All Aboard Ohio's Facebook page. Follow us on Twitter. Share our updates and info!
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Offline musky

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Re: Cleveland: West Shore commuter rail
« Reply #711 on: October 20, 2011, 09:20:46 AM »
Link? (for us lazy people that need info spoon fed to us)

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"Greater Cleveland is last in the country in number of jobs accessible in typical commute distance, creating a huge drag on economy and more air & water pollution."-- Vibrant NEO

Offline KJP

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Re: Cleveland: West Shore commuter rail
« Reply #713 on: October 24, 2011, 03:37:07 PM »
REMINDER:

The public is invited and encouraged to attend one or more of the following meetings:

Cuyahoga County—October 24, 2011               
Lakewood City Hall                                     
Auditorium                                               
12650 Detroit Avenue                               
Lakewood, OH 44107                               
6-8 pm                                                   

Lorain County—October 26, 2011
Black River Landing
421 Black River Lane
Lorain, OH 44052
6-8 pm

Erie County -- October 25, 2011
Erie County Administration Building
3rd Floor Commissioner’s Chambers
2900 Columbus Avenue
Sandusky, OH 44870
6-8 pm
"Greater Cleveland is last in the country in number of jobs accessible in typical commute distance, creating a huge drag on economy and more air & water pollution."-- Vibrant NEO

Offline noozer

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Re: Cleveland: West Shore commuter rail
« Reply #714 on: October 25, 2011, 06:38:56 AM »
Cleveland, Lorain and Sandusky would be linked by bus, rail under transit plan
Published: Tuesday, October 25, 2011, 7:07 AM     Updated: Tuesday, October 25, 2011, 7:17 AM
 By Tom Breckenridge, The Plain Dealer The Plain Dealer

CLEVELAND, Ohio -- An ambitious, 16-year plan to resurrect Lorain County's bus system and link Sandusky to Cleveland by commuter rail lacks a key ingredient -- money.

But that hasn't stopped advocates from rolling out a plan this week for the WestShore Corridor Transportation Project, with estimated costs of $400 million.

The multiphase effort addresses what planners say is a dearth of public transit links between Sandusky, Lorain and Cleveland.




Readb more at: http://blog.cleveland.com/metro/2011/10/post_533.html
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Offline biker16

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Re: Cleveland: West Shore commuter rail
« Reply #715 on: October 25, 2011, 06:52:05 AM »
I attended the meeting in Lakewood last night the turnout was light only about 15 people, most were from Lorain county. 

couple things that stood out.

FTA funding for this project is contingent primarily on Lorain county, reestablishing transit service, finding a secure funding source for transit and addressing the land use issues.

Going to this meeting made me appreciate how good we have it in Cuyahoga county.

The feedback from Lakewood officials has been positive, Tom Bullock (councilman Ward 3?) sat in on the meeting and expressed his and the mayors support for the project.

They are considering dual mode Diesel/electric trains, but as of now there are no trains that meet FRA standards for mixed use with freight trains, although that may change in the next 5-10 years. 

Got some info from the Consultant on the blue line extension, he believes it will end up being buses to both Randall park mall and to the Chagrin highlands, not Rail.

Talked an RTA Representative about the Redline extension and Clifton Blvd project. it was said the Clifton project was awarded 3 million, but is short of the 5 million needed for the project.  Red line, was assumed to be BRT only with the healthline possibly being split at University circle and second line from UC to Downtown Euclid.

 
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Offline clvlndr

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Re: Cleveland: West Shore commuter rail
« Reply #716 on: October 28, 2011, 01:22:51 AM »
Thanks for the update, biker.  At least I'm glad there IS a timetable for the West Shore commuter rail, even if it seems a bit long (given the fact that the route has been looked at and proposed for over a decade)... It's discouraging, though, that only 15 (mainly) Lorain County folks were interested enough to show up.

As to the Blue and Red Line proposals, ... I'd seriously want to look into the background of this "consultant."  Is he legit or, just as in the GM-backed National City  Lines that were hatched merely to destroy American cities' streetcar/rail transit systems in the 1930s and 40s, it a shadowy organization (in greater Cleveland, at least) that's out to shove friggin' BRT down our throats no matter how ill matched for our transit needs, or how underperforming BRT is compared to rapid transit.  You have to wonder whether there could possibly be potential illegality, too, for if FTA is spending millions of tax dollars for RTA to study "alternatives" and yet, even before a dime is spent, you have some "consultant" running around claiming that, well, it's all over but the shoutin'... forget any rail, THE DECISION HAS ALREADY BEEN MADE that all proposed extensions will be BRT... Well, connect the dots.  Doesn't give to much integrity to the Federal "alternative analysis" process, does it?

Anyway, back to West Shore…
« Last Edit: October 28, 2011, 01:25:59 AM by clvlndr »

Offline biker16

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Re: Cleveland: West Shore commuter rail
« Reply #717 on: October 28, 2011, 08:58:12 PM »
Thanks for the update, biker.  At least I'm glad there IS a timetable for the West Shore commuter rail, even if it seems a bit long (given the fact that the route has been looked at and proposed for over a decade)... It's discouraging, though, that only 15 (mainly) Lorain County folks were interested enough to show up.

As to the Blue and Red Line proposals, ... I'd seriously want to look into the background of this "consultant."  Is he legit or, just as in the GM-backed National City  Lines that were hatched merely to destroy American cities' streetcar/rail transit systems in the 1930s and 40s, it a shadowy organization (in greater Cleveland, at least) that's out to shove friggin' BRT down our throats no matter how ill matched for our transit needs, or how underperforming BRT is compared to rapid transit.  You have to wonder whether there could possibly be potential illegality, too, for if FTA is spending millions of tax dollars for RTA to study "alternatives" and yet, even before a dime is spent, you have some "consultant" running around claiming that, well, it's all over but the shoutin'... forget any rail, THE DECISION HAS ALREADY BEEN MADE that all proposed extensions will be BRT... Well, connect the dots.  Doesn't give to much integrity to the Federal "alternative analysis" process, does it?

Anyway, back to West Shore…

it was the same consultant for the west shore.  his reason were simple there isn't enough riders to support the extension.   Chagrin highlands is extremely unfriendly to transit.   it is a 10 minute walk for Harvard to the door at Eaton Corp's new HQ.

now if this was part of a larger commuter rail link to Solon then things would change.

the second source was an engineer from RTA.  She said that about the redline extension.
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Offline KJP

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Re: Cleveland: West Shore commuter rail
« Reply #718 on: November 18, 2011, 02:54:36 PM »
FYI........


SUPPORT THE LORAIN COUNTY TRANSPORTATION COALITION!!

The mission of the Lorain County Transportation Coalition is to advocate for a well-funded and balanced Lorain County transportation system that meets the needs of all groups and individuals within our community.

The goal of the Lorain County Transportation Coalition is to provide an organized local voice for individuals and organizations willing to work together to ensure that Lorain County’s public transit system is affordable, accessible and adequately funded by Federal, State and local dollars, to meet the needs of our community.

The objectives of the Lorain County Transportation Coalition are to educate Lorain County residents on the importance of public transit and to help create a consensus Public Transit Vision consisting of a range of affordable, effective and high-quality transit services.

Good Public Transit Creates A More Equitable, Vibrant
And Sustainable Lorain County

According to the American Public Transportation Association (APTA), every dollar invested in public transportation generates $6 in economic returns. New bus and rail service investments can help make Lorain County more sustainable and accessible and provide new job opportunities.
For public transportation to be a viable alternative it must be safe and reliable, get people where they need to go, when they need to get there, in a timely fashion.  This requires a greater investment in transportation infrastructure and service, which will help our economy as well as auto and transit users.   Investments in transportation infrastructure like road and bridge renewal projects helps the flow of commercial traffic and creates jobs in Lorain County.  Investments in transit services makes Lorain County more competitive in existing and emerging job markets.  Both types of investments are needed.

How Does This Affect You and Others?

Cars are expensive to own, operate and maintain. For middle-income families, transportation costs for essential trips represent up to 20 percent of basic family budgets, depending on location and family size. Low-income workers spend an even larger share of their paychecks on transportation for essential purposes. 
 
For those who are aging, persons with disabilities and young people, driving a car may not be an option at all. Transit systems with a full range of travel options such as main line buses, trolleys, express buses, community connectors, bus & rail rapid transit, commuter rail, van pools and cab vouchers can reduce or eliminate the need for private car ownership.

Nearly 40 percent of those who use public transit depend on it as their only means of transportation. Urban transit riders use transit primarily to get to work. Rural transit riders are mostly the elderly and persons who are mobility challenged.

Based on Automobile Association of America data daily transit commuters can save on the order of $9,500 per year by riding transit instead of driving.  Places where a greater percentage of commuters can use public transit are far more productive because riding on transit allows commuters to avoid hazardous weather and road conditions while reading, resting, socializing or working during travel.  Studies have shown these commuters are less stressed and generally lead more healthy lives than commuters who depend solely on the automobile for work-related travel.

___  ____  ____  ____  ____  ____  ____  ____  ____  ____  ____  ____  ____  ____  ____  ____ 

Yes, Betty, I’ll help the Lorain County Transportation Coalition achieve its mission, goal and objectives!


Name (Please Print)_______________________________________


Phone Number________________________________


Email Address _______________________________________


SEND THIS TO:

Virginia Haynes
Lorain County Community Alliance
vhaynes@loraincounty.us
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Offline DontGiveUptheFight

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Re: Cleveland: West Shore commuter rail
« Reply #719 on: January 15, 2012, 03:22:26 AM »
Would it be possible to have the West Shore Commuter rail and a potential Orange Line running on the same N&S tracks?  My thoughts are that an RTA line to Lakewood could be up and running in a shorter period of time because it is a smaller project.  It could even be an extension of one of the Green-Blue lines west instead being a line of its own color.  Furthermore, the tracks through Lakewood run close enough to Detroit Ave that it should be able to pull cars off that street.  Of course, the station entrances must face Detroit Ave to spur TOD and not to steal pedestrians away from Detroit Ave.

First get a downtown Lakewood - Tower City line running and then work on a separate expanded service from Lorain on one end to Mentor (via UC) on the other.  I just get the feeling that focusing on the bigger project means that we'll have to wait longer for it to happen.


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Re: Cleveland: West Shore commuter rail
« Reply #720 on: January 15, 2012, 12:20:25 PM »
Would it be possible to have the West Shore Commuter rail and a potential Orange Line running on the same N&S tracks?  My thoughts are that an RTA line to Lakewood could be up and running in a shorter period of time because it is a smaller project.  It could even be an extension of one of the Green-Blue lines west instead being a line of its own color.  Furthermore, the tracks through Lakewood run close enough to Detroit Ave that it should be able to pull cars off that street.  Of course, the station entrances must face Detroit Ave to spur TOD and not to steal pedestrians away from Detroit Ave.

First get a downtown Lakewood - Tower City line running and then work on a separate expanded service from Lorain on one end to Mentor (via UC) on the other.  I just get the feeling that focusing on the bigger project means that we'll have to wait longer for it to happen.



These are two different types of services.  InnerCity rapid (subway) vs.  Commuter rail.  I can see a dual station in Lakewood where both types of lines used that station, but other than that, there would need to be rail right-of-way space for at least 4 tracks.
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Re: Cleveland: West Shore commuter rail
« Reply #721 on: February 02, 2012, 10:02:24 PM »
In terms of ridership, I think an extension of the redline into Lakewood is far and away the lowest hanging fruit for rail expansion.

Lakewood would probably be the greatest beneficiary of a rail expansion, and the loudest opponent, too.


Lakewood opposes having rail service?  Can you elaborate on this?  Never heard of such a thing.  Most people I know are passionate about wanting it.  Even those who don't care, who would never use it, agree that it should have happened years ago.     
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Re: Cleveland: West Shore commuter rail
« Reply #722 on: February 03, 2012, 01:28:12 AM »
"... it should have happened years ago."

You're right about that 327.  The Van Sweringen's original plan for an east-west rapid transit was originally a Lakewood-Rocky River to East Cleveland/Euclid line along what's now N-S utilizing the route through Lakewood... way back in the 1920s!!  Of course, CTS in the 1940s & 50s designed and built the current Red Line using much of that route, but it got no further than Windermere on the East, and on the West, they decided to turn the line to the SW toward the airport (along the main line N-S route) rather than going to through Lakewood per the Vans plan... IIRC KJP noted that sandy soil issues in Lakewood prevented the type of sunken/open cut method used up to Detroit W. 98th...

My guess is that Lakewood residents wanted neither a surface or elevated line (given the high number of crossing streets) so extension beyond W. 98th never materialized.
« Last Edit: February 03, 2012, 01:31:58 AM by clvlndr »

Offline biker16

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Re: Cleveland: West Shore commuter rail
« Reply #723 on: February 04, 2012, 11:42:13 AM »
Lakewood is a Medium city with a Small Town mentality.

they abhor change.

Imagine the protest from residents when 30-60 trains roar through those grade level crossings everyday.

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Re: Cleveland: West Shore commuter rail
« Reply #724 on: February 04, 2012, 04:16:30 PM »
How do they feel about the current freight trains?   
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Re: Cleveland: West Shore commuter rail
« Reply #725 on: February 04, 2012, 09:51:41 PM »

Imagine the protest from residents when 30-60 trains roar through those grade level crossings everyday.


Wait -- what?
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Re: Cleveland: West Shore commuter rail
« Reply #726 on: February 05, 2012, 10:36:26 AM »
So this means we need a subway under Detroit instead, right?  :clap:

I do think BRT or streetcar is possible on Detroit, even though it's a narrow street.  The current configuration of lanes, from north to south, is:

- Parking
- Westbound traffic
- Turning lane
- Eastbound traffic
- Parking

This could be changed to:

- Westbound transit
- Eastbound transit
- Westbound traffic
- Eastbound traffic
- Parking

A few park and rides will probably be needed along the way, though.  There'll probably be a lot of people angry over reduced parking.

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Re: Cleveland: West Shore commuter rail
« Reply #727 on: February 05, 2012, 11:09:53 AM »
Lakewood is a Medium city with a Small Town mentality.

they abhor change.

Imagine the protest from residents when 30-60 trains roar through those grade level crossings everyday.

I haven't encountered anything like this through years of living in Lakewood.  Various parts.  It's the most progressive and urbanist populace I've ever had the pleasure of joining.  Residents are against the McDonalds on Detroit not because they hate change, but because replacing a mixed-use twin cinema building with a McDonalds drive thru is anti-urban and stupid.  Similarly, many are against the West Shoreway conversion because they think it's just a bad idea.  Too much connectivity lost for too little gained, at too great a cost.  People were against RTA cutting the circulator buses, not because they hate change but because they prefer a transit-oriented lifestyle.  The common theme is that being able to get around is a good thing.  Lakewood by definition is a dense center of population and entertainment that's 5 miles outside downtown.  Transportation will always be forefront issue.  I think most people in Lakewood would welcome a rail expansion of any kind.
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Re: Cleveland: West Shore commuter rail
« Reply #728 on: February 05, 2012, 11:41:49 AM »

Imagine the protest from residents when 30-60 trains roar through those grade level crossings everyday.


Wait -- what?

If the redline was extended to Lakewood As someone else proposed.

In theory if you had you had 15-30 minute interval between trains serving a downtown Lakewood stop from 6:30am -10:30pm, that would be a lot of trains over those grade level crossings. 

even with a commuter Rail line as proposed it could trigger a Nimby uproar, in the city.



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Re: Cleveland: West Shore commuter rail
« Reply #729 on: February 05, 2012, 11:47:05 AM »

If the redline was extended to Lakewood As someone else proposed.

In theory if you had you had 15-30 minute interval between trains serving a downtown Lakewood stop from 6:30am -10:30pm, that would be a lot of trains over those grade level crossings. 

even with a commuter Rail line as proposed it could trigger a Nimby uproar, in the city.


It could but didn't. There were public hearings last year on the commuter rail project, including a hearing at the Lakewood City Hall. But there was no NIMBY uproar. In fact I don't remember anyone taking a stance of outright opposition.

Maybe they would if a branch of the Red Line was offered, but that's not what has been proposed.
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Re: Cleveland: West Shore commuter rail
« Reply #730 on: February 05, 2012, 11:50:50 AM »
Lakewood is a Medium city with a Small Town mentality.

they abhor change.

Imagine the protest from residents when 30-60 trains roar through those grade level crossings everyday.

I haven't encountered anything like this through years of living in Lakewood.  Various parts.  It's the most progressive and urbanist populace I've ever had the pleasure of joining.  Residents are against the McDonalds on Detroit not because they hate change, but because replacing a mixed-use twin cinema building with a McDonalds drive thru is anti-urban and stupid.  Similarly, many are against the West Shoreway conversion because they think it's just a bad idea.  Too much connectivity lost for too little gained, at too great a cost.  People were against RTA cutting the circulator buses, not because they hate change but because they prefer a transit-oriented lifestyle.  The common theme is that being able to get around is a good thing.  Lakewood by definition is a dense center of population and entertainment that's 5 miles outside downtown.  Transportation will always be forefront issue.  I think most people in Lakewood would welcome a rail expansion of any kind.

How about the proposed land swap for Kaufman park that could have led to a lifestyle center in the center of downtown Lakewood?

or the west end project,

Or the Clifton BRT lite concept, that would have transformed the street into one more pedestrian friendly.

or the rejection of the West shoreway conversion by some people.

Even some people in some positions at the city who feel mixed use development has no future in the city.

You can say these people are progressive, but their actions from a Economic development POV and even architectural POV are very conservative.   How hard would it be to reform the Zoning of the city to prevent the abominations that SSA, CVS, and McDonalds, are.   Lakewood residents think they are more rocky river than they are Gordon Square, but the opposite s true. there seems to be conflict between being a bedroom community and the most densely populated city between NYC and Chicago.   the city does not embrace its urban roots and prefers to behave like it is a traditional suburb, which it is not.

« Last Edit: February 05, 2012, 11:52:18 AM by biker16 »
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Re: Cleveland: West Shore commuter rail
« Reply #731 on: February 05, 2012, 12:01:17 PM »

If the redline was extended to Lakewood As someone else proposed.

In theory if you had you had 15-30 minute interval between trains serving a downtown Lakewood stop from 6:30am -10:30pm, that would be a lot of trains over those grade level crossings. 

even with a commuter Rail line as proposed it could trigger a Nimby uproar, in the city.


It could but didn't. There were public hearings last year on the commuter rail project, including a hearing at the Lakewood City Hall. But there was no NIMBY uproar. In fact I don't remember anyone taking a stance of outright opposition.

Maybe they would if a branch of the Red Line was offered, but that's not what has been proposed.

I know I am being a bit pessimistic about things, but I also remember the public support for the street scape plans for Detroit and Clifton, only to see an public uproar at the last minute doom the project.

I also know about the public reaction to the removal of Stop lights on Detroit, when in fact the public was informed of the removals 18 months ago.  Often we can go though a public process build consensus, only to fail by the fear and paranoia of people late in the process.

there has been nothing in the last 10 years that makes me believe that Lakewood would be anymore friendly to transit than rocky river or fair view park.   like I said there is alot of small town nostalgia, and that has been hindering their vision.
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Re: Cleveland: West Shore commuter rail
« Reply #732 on: February 05, 2012, 12:07:45 PM »
And... In the early 1990s there was a proposal to close about one-third of the railroad crossings in Lakewood to reduce train noise and improve safety. The remaining crossings would all be equipped with gates, in addition to the flashers. There was a huge community uproar that killed that project too.
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Re: Cleveland: West Shore commuter rail
« Reply #733 on: February 05, 2012, 12:23:24 PM »
biker 16, I really do not see what you see in the attitudes here.  I wouldn't be surprised if, like most places, we have some of the wrong people in power.  Things are far from perfect, 117th being the prime example.  But people oppose BRT because it's BRT.  The branding on that concept is hopeless around here, perhaps permanently.  The Euclid project tarnished it more than anyone seems to want to admit. 

And generally no, people in Lakewood do not want to mess with Clifton or the Shoreway.  But to say that makes them anti-urban is not fair and not accurate.  If the West Shoreway plan involved putting rail down Clifton it would probably be met with open arms.  Talk to them about improving the 55 and all they want is more buses, more capacity with more consistent service.  They don't care about the landscaping or the nature of the bus stops.  That's irrelevant to how well you can get around. 

Again, the theme is connectivity.  It's important in any city but especially in one like ours where so much of the functional urban neighborhood stock is so far from downtown.  That's why there's little interest in cosmetic enhancements that would effectively move Lakewood further away.  Lakewood thrives off its connection to downtown, and given the crippling apartment shortage in our central city, downtown also thrives off its connection to Lakewood.  In so many ways, Gordon Square is trying to be a smaller version of Lakewood.  It's important that Gordon Square gets where it's going, development wise, but that's no reason to start treating Lakewood like it's Westlake.  It's not, and nobody wants it to be. 

Your negative characterization of this very emphatically urban community seems off base to me.  I really wish the Shoreway conversion had not become the wedge issue that it has.
« Last Edit: February 05, 2012, 12:24:30 PM by 327 »
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Offline KJP

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Re: Cleveland: West Shore commuter rail
« Reply #734 on: February 05, 2012, 12:33:34 PM »
327, I think you need to meet some of the older residents of Lakewood. When I covered the city for Sun News, I met many of them, and they have very different views. They see Lakewood in serious decline because of its increasing diversity (funny I heard the same when I first moved here in 1996 -- at this rate Lakewood should have declined into anti-matter), they want to rid the city of more apartments and density (and have succeeded along West 117th), and generally despise change (except perhaps to go back to the Lakewood they grew up in during the 1950s and 60s).

EDIT: oh, and some of them consider the duplex quintessential Lakewood, and view the high-rise apartment buildings of the Gold Coast not a part of Lakewood, as if somehow it shipwrecked here and the oldsters can't seem to get rid of it. I got into an argument with an old-timer once about our views of the city, and the old woman asked me where I lived. I told her "in Lakewood." She asked "what part?" I said "near the Gold Coast." She replied "Oh, that's not really Lakewood."

Some view the commuter rail project as not being consistent with their views of Lakewood, especially in their attempts to isolate Lakewood from problems affecting other parts of the metro area.
« Last Edit: February 05, 2012, 12:39:18 PM by KJP »
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