Author Topic: Cleveland: Flats East Bank  (Read 1591811 times)

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Online Htsguy

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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #875 on: May 08, 2007, 08:41:40 AM »
I truly doubt that 80 witnesses will testify.  It is a regular practice of litigators to identify almost everybody who has anything to do with anything on their pre trial witness list.  Most of the time only a fraction really take the stand.  Couple of reasons for this.  If a person is not on the list it is the customary practice for the judge to exclude that person from testifying.  A trial lawyer may really have no intention of calling a particular witness, but may change his mind during the course of the trial depending on how things (or issues) are going.  So it is just a safe practice to have all potentially relevant names on your list.  Also, a long list of witnesses " scares" and "confuses" the other side (not really but lawyers continue to think it does).

I note from the court docket (yesterday) that the preliminary hearing was continued again.  However, it looks as though this was only because they did not complete hearing all the pre trial motions and were working on that yesterday.  I would imagine that they will start as soon as they finish going through all the motions (in other words the hearing has not been continued for weeks or months like in the past, just a day or so).

Thank God for hard headed people (both sides).  They keep the lawyers in their BMWs.

Offline musky

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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #876 on: May 08, 2007, 11:14:50 AM »
I wonder how many strippers are in the pool of 80?

Offline mrnyc

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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #877 on: May 08, 2007, 04:48:58 PM »
torch'em -- buy'em -- take'm! who cares? just get it done already and lets get on with it.

kee rist if there is one thing in my face everyday of cleveland holding back its that stuff like the freakin nytimes building and the bank of america building in midtown manhattan were planned and will be built before there are any shovels in the ground in the flats. so no more delays your honor lets get a move-on.
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Offline Mov2Ohio

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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #878 on: May 08, 2007, 05:17:17 PM »
I don't know what it is with these high profile projects, but it seems they just cannot move forward in Cleveland. Maybe them being high profile is the problem. Maybe in the future developers (like those of Stonebridge) should buy a parcel get the project approved through the city and start construction, no need for the press conferences and interviews..Just build the damn thing.
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Online clvlndr

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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #879 on: May 08, 2007, 10:24:20 PM »
I don't know what it is with these high profile projects, but it seems they just cannot move forward in Cleveland. Maybe them being high profile is the problem. Maybe in the future developers (like those of Stonebridge) should buy a parcel get the project approved through the city and start construction, no need for the press conferences and interviews..Just build the damn thing.

EXACTLY!!!!

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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #880 on: May 08, 2007, 10:46:13 PM »
Press conferences and interviews and the "high profile " that they create aren't what is slowing down these projects.  The people they are negotiating with for property know when something is up and when someone wants their land for development, and they inevitably hear "ka-ching" in their head.  As a developer, you just can't hide that even if you try.  You inevitably have to give some clues as to who you are and what you might do with the property.  Even if you are all hush-hush about what you want with the property, that will give something away. If people catch a wiff that their property might be of value to you, they will want top dollar for it.

Offline KJP

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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #881 on: May 08, 2007, 11:01:25 PM »
Zaremba, who normally shies from the limelight, went the heavy PR route to stimulate sales with the Avenue District. But he already had much of the needed property in hand when he bought the parking lots from the city. Some interesting differences and similarities there.

Stark tried to quietly work some behind the scenes stuff with downtown parking lot owner Tony Asher, but some nosy reporter sniffed that one out. ;) Still, for the prior year, Stark was quite the high-profile operator when it came to his desires for building downtown.

I tend to think developers are egoists by their very nature, simply because of what they do. They build stuff that changes the landscape, possibly for hundreds of years. Their creations are, in some ways, monuments to themselves. So the PR blitzes go with the territory. I found Zaremba to be very different breed, though. I don't know how he or other Cleveland developers compare to their colleagues around the country. Having said all that, I don't think the love or hate of PR makes one developer more or less effective than another.
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Online clvlndr

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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #882 on: May 08, 2007, 11:06:10 PM »
^points well taken, but I think sometimes our developers fall into the messiah complex -- that their home-run project will save the city and, of course, as we see in the Flats, (as you note) these biggie, high-profile projects also draws out the leeches.  But then, too, these big projects are risky and in a conservative town like ours, where we're so freeway car oriented, big, high-density, mixed use urban developments, I'm sure, are a very hard sell here, esp in our local economy... I'm sure local banks much prefer those single-use, strip developments in the burbs.

Answer: do what Price-Corna (w/ Stonebridge) and MRN (E.4th Street) have done.  Start small; one building at a time, then build momentum and excitement-- contact hitters can score runs-- just don't always swing for the fences (homerun hitters are usually the biggest strikeout kings, as well).  Both Stonebridge and E. 4th are now the hottest existing downtown projects going... Meanwhile, Stark Pesht and Wolstein Flats are stalled... but things seem to be looking up for both... One must have a great deal of patience in this town; we'll all be rewarded, eventually; it's just not happening overnight.
« Last Edit: May 08, 2007, 11:08:23 PM by clvlndr »

Offline KJP

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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #883 on: May 08, 2007, 11:28:03 PM »
I think you hit on it. One feature which this city seems to "excel" at is its number of leeches. They exist both in the private and public sectors, and they all seek their piece of the action. Enough of them come out to feed that it bleeds the project to death, or at least causes it to be scaled back. In my job, I see a lot of these leeches around, but I think there used to be a lot more of them back 20-50 years ago. Lots of them were mob connected, and many of today's leeches are still connected to some remnants of nefarious activity. Sadly, you'll find a concentration of them in the Flats, as well as along West 25th, Carnegie, and a few other places.
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Offline the pope

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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #884 on: May 09, 2007, 05:42:19 AM »
^i'd argue that practically any rust belt city has its share of leeches.

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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #885 on: May 09, 2007, 08:32:36 AM »
Cleveland has way more leeches than most places.  It's like a dark gray cloud hovering over the city and people need to fight like hell to rise above it.  People here tend to be way too territorial (only concerned about what's best for them and protecting their own turf) and not able to grasp the idea of embracing long-term changes that benefit the entire region.

Online Htsguy

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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #886 on: May 09, 2007, 08:57:23 AM »
Maybe somebody should start a seperate Cleveland "leeches" thread.  Getting back on topic, does anybody know if the actual hearing started yesterday or is going forward today?  The court docket is silent on this.

Offline musky

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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #887 on: May 15, 2007, 07:13:25 AM »
Former Mayor Jane Campbell was in court yesterday to testify.
There was a report on WTAM this morning, but there is nothing online yet.


This is from WCPN - yesterday:

Quote
Former Mayor Campbell Expected to Testify in Flats Case

Aired May 14, 2007

Former Cleveland Mayor Jane Campbell is scheduled to testify today in the trial over whether property in Cleveland's East Flats can be seized under eminent domain. ideastream's Bill Rice reports.

Listen to the MP3
http://www.wcpn.org/mp3/2007/05/0514campbell.mp3

As the second week of the trial gets underway, Campbell is one of at least two high-profile witnesses yet to make an appearance in the case.

She's expected to discuss her involvement in talks with developer Scott Wolstein as early as 2002 about his proposal to build a mixed residential and commercial complex in the East Flats. That was the year she began her first and only term as mayor, and before the Cleveland/Cuyahoga County Port Authority took a role in securing the land for the project.

In its suit against property owners the Port claims the economic benefit to the community Wolstein's project will generate is a public benefit, and it's therefore justified in using its power of eminent domain to acquire the land.

It took the case to trial after the property owners failed to accept the offered price.
« Last Edit: May 15, 2007, 07:20:42 AM by musky »

Offline musky

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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #888 on: May 15, 2007, 07:48:28 AM »
And in today's PD:

Quote
Campbell denies secrecy in Flats project
Tuesday, May 15, 2007
Tom Breckenridge
Plain Dealer Reporter

Jane Campbell on Monday rejected any notion that she and her top staff worked secretly and illegally to pave the way for developer Scott Wolstein and a proposed $230 million redevelopment of the east bank of the Flats.

Testifying in Cuyahoga County Probate Court, the former mayor said Wolstein was a significant land owner in the Flats and the only developer with a comprehensive plan to achieve the city's goals of new housing downtown and improved access to the Cuyahoga River and Lake Erie.


More at cleveland.com http://www.cleveland.com
« Last Edit: September 11, 2009, 10:47:11 AM by MayDay »

Offline Punch

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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #889 on: May 15, 2007, 05:39:15 PM »
^from the way the article is written, it sounds like she held her own
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Online clvlndr

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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #890 on: May 16, 2007, 12:43:03 AM »
I agree with Jane -- I've never heard of such an ordinance requiring a vote for the City's delegation of ED powers to an agency like the PA.  I think the opposition is really reaching.  Hopefully this is a precursor to they're getting their legal asses kicked.

Offline Mov2Ohio

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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #891 on: May 21, 2007, 11:07:30 AM »
Flats developers pitch plans for an East-West combo
Posted by Henry J. Gomez May 21, 2007 10:17AM
Categories: Breaking News, Economic development
In a booth on the floor of this year's International Council of Shopping Centers' spring convention in Las Vegas, east has met west, Cleveland-style.


The latest master plan for the Flats includes walkways linking the two banks. (Click for full size; see link in story for labeled PDF)The people behind two projects for the Flats - on opposite sides of the Cuyahoga River - have come here to market their planned neighborhoods as one for the first time. It's an intriguing strategy, a sign of unity that could perhaps manufacture momentum and stimulate close to $1 billion worth of housing, retail and office space. "This is big," said developer Bob Corna, who with K&D Group Inc. of Willoughby is working on the West Bank's $700 million Stonebridge apartment and condo project. "The sum of the parts makes a much bigger whole. We're known nationwide as the Flats."


More at http://blog.cleveland.com/business/2007/05/flats_developers_pitch_plans_f.html
« Last Edit: September 11, 2009, 10:47:54 AM by MayDay »
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Offline the pope

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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #892 on: May 21, 2007, 11:17:51 AM »
now we just need a signature cable-stayed pedestrian bridge!

(please note sarcasm)

Offline zaceman

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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #893 on: May 21, 2007, 12:04:32 PM »
wow really exciting

this plan seems different looking in a few ways.  is there more involved with the stonebridge plan now?

Offline w28th

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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #894 on: May 21, 2007, 12:10:27 PM »
Good to hear there is some cooperation going on here, but...
Looks like there will be plenty of surface parking spaces available in that masterplan.  Don't forget about the "revolutionary" cul-de-sac.
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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #895 on: May 21, 2007, 12:14:48 PM »
Not sure how much new is in here as much as jockeying going on.  We're all expecting some big announcement from Stark and now the 2 Flats groups have agreed to cooperate as a unified front.  Now the Flats people can be taken more seriously on a more equal footing with Stark since they're project now also hits close to $1billion.  Its good to have some competition and cooperation. 

Offline SergeViteli

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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #896 on: May 21, 2007, 12:28:22 PM »
Am I missing something or reading this wrong... where the heck is the RT. 2 bridge, isn't it North of the Detroit/Superior bridge?

Offline cle2032

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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #897 on: May 21, 2007, 12:42:37 PM »
Nice to see the cooperation between all of these parties.  Hopefully they're sincere and realize that the true success of each respective project is dependent on the success of its neighbors!  I can definetly see a Whole Foods/Trader Joe's and/or Fox and Obel in the area however it'd be a shame if it hurt Constantino's.  Anyways...Go CAVS!!!  I'll be at McGee's in Lincoln Park (Chicago) tonight if anyone wants to watch the game!   
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Offline Confiteordeo

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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #898 on: May 21, 2007, 12:47:28 PM »
Good to hear there is some cooperation going on here, but...
Looks like there will be plenty of surface parking spaces available in that masterplan.  Don't forget about the "revolutionary" cul-de-sac.

What disappoints me most is how close that parking is to the river.  Not only are there runoff issues (oil leaks and such,) but you'd think the developers would want the best possible views for their buildings.
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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #899 on: May 21, 2007, 12:55:47 PM »
Am I missing something or reading this wrong... where the heck is the RT. 2 bridge, isn't it North of the Detroit/Superior bridge?

It is labeled as "Main Ave Pedestrian Bridge Above" on the map with a dotted line.   I'm not sure where they're getting "pedestrian" from, though.
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Offline theguv

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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #900 on: May 21, 2007, 02:32:54 PM »
"What disappoints me most is how close that parking is to the river.  Not only are there runoff issues (oil leaks and such,) but you'd think the developers would want the best possible views for their buildings."

Good points Confiteordeo.  Not sure which parking lots you are referring to as they all seem to be placed in the center of the development.  Not sure how detailed this masterplan is, but I too hope the developers will focus on the environmental ramifications of the development as  functional landscaping (bioswales, raingardens, etc) would not only enhance the ecological processes at the site, but enhance the aesthetics and appeal to shoppers, residents, etc. 

Re: this proposal, I am most interested in the creation of Old River Park and the boardwalk, the connection to Whiskey Island, the implementation of green design and functional landscaping, and the relationship of the entire plan to the the Cuyahoga and Erie being that  they are the most critical public/env assets.
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Offline kal-el

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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #901 on: May 21, 2007, 02:53:03 PM »
a Bernie Kosar steakhouse.  AWESOME!  That actually is a perfect restaurant to go in there.  Its unique and people from outside of downtown would go down to the flats to eat there.  As long as its a quality place, people would go back.http://blog.cleveland.com/business/2007/05/kosar_to_open_steakhouse_in_fl.html

Offline zaceman

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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #902 on: May 21, 2007, 02:52:59 PM »
Kosar to open steakhouse in Flats East Bank
Posted by Henry J. Gomez May 21, 2007 15:03PM
Categories: Breaking News, Economic development
Bernie Kosar, under center the last time the Cleveland Browns were Super Bowl contenders, is now under contract to bring a steakhouse to the Flats.


Bernie Kosar will be bringing a steakhouse to Cleveland's Flats.Still beloved in Northeast Ohio, the Boardman native is the first announced tenant for the $230 million mixed-use neighborhood planned for the East Bank. Randy Ruttenberg, a principal with lead developer Fairmount Properties LLC, confirmed that Kosar's management group has agreed to open a 6,700-square-foot restaurant and sports bar.
Ruttenberg, in Las Vegas for the International Council of Shopping Centers spring convention, said the concept will be similar to the Kosar-branded Bernie's Steakhouse near Miami. The retired quarterback keeps a home in south Florida.
More at cleveland.com http://www.cleveland.com
« Last Edit: September 11, 2009, 10:46:00 AM by MayDay »

Offline Confiteordeo

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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #903 on: May 21, 2007, 03:11:41 PM »
Theguv-  I'm talking about the parking lots south of "future entertainment" and the building to its left (both on the west bank.)  Looking at the image again, I'm not sure if these parking lots are preŽxisting or not.
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Offline musky

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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #904 on: May 21, 2007, 03:14:05 PM »
Good news.
Hasn't nybody noticed the two properties that stick out:
WATERPARK!!!
FUTURE ENTERTAINMENT (casino?)!!!

I also see what still appears to be a DFAS type building on the East Bank, the remnants f Lighthouse Landing, and a completely different looking layout for the East Bank in general (as opposed to what was shown (albeit, conceptually) previously.

Lastly, it looks as if the building that houses Metropolis is staying... not that it means anything special, but it is a cool building.

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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #905 on: May 21, 2007, 08:25:35 PM »
The parking lots shown are preexisting.  The plan we are looking at is a development plan for a private developer, not a neighborhood master plan, so I'd say that it is likely that Corna just doesn't anticipate having control of that land, or isn't looking to develop it at this time.  I don't think it shows an intent to keep surface parking on a massive scale as a part of the "vision" for the neighborhood. 

Musky, what changes are you talking about on the East Bank?  The proposal looks the same to me as their earlier proposal, except with the addition of a heavily modified Lighthouse Landing.

A waterpark?!  Yikes!

Notice also the building footprints being shown to the North of the East Bank development- I wonder how this matches with Stark's vision.  Certainly it looks like there won't be any connection between that development and Wolstein's in this plan.

And finally, a Bernie-themed restaurant.  That's even better than Al Bubba Baker's Bubba-Q in Avon.  They should call it "Almost Champps Americana" in ode to our glory days of being "contenders".

Offline KStay2

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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #906 on: May 21, 2007, 08:38:31 PM »
FUTURE ENTERTAINMENT (casino?)!!!

That would be nice.. especially if voters weren't attempting to be the moral arm of our state.

"Hey, we need to vote down casino gambling because it will lead to gambling addictions"

Because it's obvious that nobody can become addicted to horse racing or the lottery..

Offline musky

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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #907 on: May 21, 2007, 09:21:10 PM »
^^The corner where Fagins used to be looks different to me.
But I am guessing from memory

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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #908 on: May 21, 2007, 10:40:57 PM »
Regarding the East-West bank cooperation, I'm really surprised that the writer didn't cite the coordinator of this effort. Buliding Cleveland by Design (who will soon be led by a UO participant) is responsible for this partnering.

Great news about the east bank. I just got back from a 10-day vacation...have the ED proceedings come to a conclusion?

Offline Mov2Ohio

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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #909 on: May 21, 2007, 11:28:53 PM »
I wonder what effect the movie theatre will have on Tower City Cinemas. I'm glad it will be there though.
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