Author Topic: Cleveland: Flats East Bank  (Read 1571732 times)

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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #840 on: April 29, 2007, 09:48:08 PM »
^A Newport type place on the Ebank would be OK as long as there was no interior mallish portion. This is a neighborhood he's building not an isolated entertainmentplex. The venues at NPOL would be cool, just not Newports form.
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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #841 on: April 29, 2007, 10:10:06 PM »
Quote
Even if the Port loses and Wolstein has to pony up more cash, he said his project will go ahead.

This was nice to read.

Before commenting on the new information divulged in the article, a quick rant.  Can't Steve Litt begin any written piece without cutting down Cleveland in one way or another.  It really starts to get old after a while.  Maybe he should take a creative writing class and learn some new hooks.  In this particular piece I found the following comment particularly sophomoric:  "Need I mention that Cleveland passed up the opportunity to build a Gehry designed skyscraper headquarters for Progressive Corp. on the lakefront in the 1980's". 

I agree. Besides, didn't the loss of the progressive tower have more to do with personality clashes between the White administration and Lewis as opposed to how "Cleveland passed up the opportunity."
« Last Edit: April 29, 2007, 10:10:39 PM by musky »

Offline Vulpster03

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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #842 on: April 29, 2007, 11:22:51 PM »
I'm not a fan of Newport on the Levee. Its just too touristy and generic.

The East Bank is interesting to me, because I cant quite figure out where Wolstein is going with it other than he wants it to be a "neighborhood". For instance I think I understand what Zaremba, MRN, and Stark have in mind in terms of the type of neighborhood and market. I think creating some kind of niche or unique vision is important for succesful developments like this.

I think it would be kind of cool for the Flats East Bank to capitlize on the growing "Green" culture and market. With its riverfront location and light rail access I think it could capitalize on the environmentally conscious, and people who like to enjoy the outdoors. I'd like to see a bicycle shop and rental, kayak shop, Whole Foods, Roots, health-food restaurants, etc. Maybe something like a downtown version of Coventry. The uniqueness of the neighborhood and niche is important in attracting not only people to live there but visit and support the retail as well. We're getting a number of interesting mixed-use developments in the area now, and they shouldn't all have a Cheesecake Factory.

Offline twok2lcdcnc

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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #843 on: April 30, 2007, 12:49:59 AM »
I'd like to see a bicycle shop and rental, kayak shop, Whole Foods, Roots, health-food restaurants, etc. Maybe something like a downtown version of Coventry.

Ohhh! and Subarus. Don't forget, Subarus for everybody!!! :)




and yes I actually drive one.

Offline clvlndr

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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #844 on: April 30, 2007, 12:54:14 AM »
nice interview and update on what is going on, but I too thought things were further along. I hope they can pull this together. Even if the architecture is not outdtanding, something new down there is better than nothing. I'd settle for something like Newport/Levee in Cincitucky.

I'm a little put off, but not surprised by this delay... the street/sewers reconfig and rebuilding is massive even for this relatively small plot.  Wolstein has to wait for full property control either by winning in court or losing and negotiating a buy out... I'd like it to move faster but, at the very least, I'm thrilled Wolstein is saying, he's moving forward and not tying this thing up in court further if he loses; he'll settle with these jerks and move forward...

... yeah, Litt's getting tiresome with his pinhead putdowns and, yes, the Progressive slap is both gratuitous and inaccurate-- and, for that matter, given Frank Gehry's, er, eccentric style, are we really that worse off by having only his Peter B/Weatherhead building at Case? -- not that I wouldn't love a Progressive tower teaming with those 5,000+ workers downtown... a tower by the guy who, White or no White Admin, planted his huge corp out in Mayfield and, yet, has since taken every opportunity to lecture the city constantly, particularly UCI, over its supposed lack of vision (much like another major POTENTIAL downtown player-cum suburb: Bob Stark)...
... must be nice to lecture Cleveland about the problem when there's truly are, themselves, a major reason for it...

Offline Punch

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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #845 on: April 30, 2007, 04:09:14 AM »
I hope Jimmy's comes back :)
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Offline 3231

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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #846 on: April 30, 2007, 08:00:11 AM »
We've known for about 2 years now that the preliminary utility work was to take about a year. Check back on this thread and you'll find it mentioned a few times.

Offline StrapHanger

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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #847 on: April 30, 2007, 09:28:53 AM »
That article made me seriously excited again for this project.  And I am very psyched Wolstein is thinking about using multiple architects.  Though none discussed in the article really excited me so much (don't know anything about FORUM though), they at least sound decently competent.

Before commenting on the new information divulged in the article, a quick rant.  Can't Steve Litt begin any written piece without cutting down Cleveland in one way or another.  It really starts to get old after a while. 

I have no problems with Litt's style- I think he's dead on.  Just look at Unversity Hospitals, the Clinic, the County (maybe a little premature...), etc.  For a town with so little constrcution activity, our local institutions have a serious knack for blowing it.

The Progressive issue is pretty tricky.  Who knows what really happened.  Yeah, it's pretty lazy to say "Cleveland" screwed that up, but it does sounds like a complete lack of vision by the White administration plus the the alienating clannishnes of the corporate dinosaurs (one down side of all those fortune 500 companies?) really did play a big role in the project's demise.  And I think it really would have been a cool project.
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Online w28th

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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #848 on: April 30, 2007, 10:14:07 AM »
The city wouldn't give Progressive tax abatement if I remember correctly.  It's not like 5,000 people working and spending downtown would offset property tax losses....  Thanks Mike White.
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Offline MyTwoSense

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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #849 on: April 30, 2007, 10:22:31 AM »
The city wouldn't give Progressive tax abatement if I remember correctly.  It's not like 5,000 people working and spending downtown would offset property tax losses....  Thanks Mike White.

Don't blame it ALL on mike white either.  Other business' weighed in on that decision as well.  Progressive and the Hilton Corp have held grudges against Cleveland since they couldn't build on the Mall. I'm glad to have the open space in our downtown and its added historic value.

I mean I can't imagine the crap that would be built on the mall, if both of those companies would have been allowed to proceed.  it wouldn't fit in with Music Hall/Public Hall and (probably) would have make the Mall a dark dreary space.
« Last Edit: April 30, 2007, 10:26:02 AM by MyTwoSense »
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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #850 on: April 30, 2007, 10:24:58 AM »
I'm skeptical of having tall buildings on the waterfront. Wouldn't they cast a lot of shadows? I'm thinking that in a weather challenged city like Cleveland you would want as much natural sunlight as possible in the Flats and Lakefront.

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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #851 on: April 30, 2007, 10:25:47 AM »
The official word about Progressive from Peter B. Lewis' spokesperson was that "It was a business decision made by the Board of Directors when Al Lerner was chairman." Now, I'm sure that there are plenty of bullet points that led to that decision but all I'm saying is that's the "official" statement.

pope, Stern has worked on the following:

Youngstown's Federal Courthouse:


Philadelphia's Comcast Center (image from phillyskyline.com):


And NYC's 15 Central Park West:


Stern's work isn't the most envelope pushing, but they're generally high-quality (unlike some PoMo types).
« Last Edit: April 30, 2007, 10:31:53 AM by MayDay »

Offline StrapHanger

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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #852 on: April 30, 2007, 11:21:44 AM »

I mean I can't imagine the crap that would be built on the mall, if both of those companies would have been allowed to proceed.  it wouldn't fit in with Music Hall/Public Hall and (probably) would have make the Mall a dark dreary space.

Pretty sre the Progressive tower would have been on a deck over the tracks north of the Mall, not on the mall itself.  Would have been a nice counterpart to the height of the Key tower south of the mall.

MayDay, didn't RTKL design the Tower City Ritz and Sklylight office tower?  Not sure why that sticks in my head.
"Cleveland, as you see, is not an apple, but a bunch of grapes each of which has its own particular pattern-some large, others small, some round, others long and narrow, some sweet, others sour, some sound, others rotten throughout."  -Howard Whipple Green, 1932

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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #853 on: April 30, 2007, 12:10:17 PM »
^You're correct, RTKL designed both.

Offline mrnyc

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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #854 on: April 30, 2007, 12:51:22 PM »
i'll say this about stern, the 15 cpw project is one of the best going on in the city in terms of fit. they are actually building a modern pre-war throwback residential building, which i would have thought impossible. i really like it a lot. so i hope that translates to good news for the flats. check out this nice review on triplemint blog (quote: "Overall this is a skillfully designed love letter to New York."):

http://www.triplemint.com/triplemint/2005/10/15_cpw.html
« Last Edit: April 30, 2007, 12:52:05 PM by mrnyc »
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Offline MyTwoSense

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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #855 on: April 30, 2007, 01:46:10 PM »
I face this building and have watched it go up.  Our building actually made this development possible.  The price point is sky high and on the inside the quality doesn't quite match the exterior work.  When I was at the sales office snopping around, Denzel Washington just purchased a unit and he told me that building was 80% sold out at that time.  I think Rod Stewart also bought a place.

I do have to say, as previously mentioned, the new building is built prewar style to match the previous smaller structure.  the unit floor plans are layed out, they are built "old school" style.  I viewed this apartment http://www.15cpw.com/7-11C.pdf  which put me in the frame of mind of my apartment on the Square.  I love how you must go from room to room - none of that "open floor plan" or "grand room" crap! 

The big plus is the views.

Although, completely sold out I could never afford to buy a unit AND pay the association fees, but hell if you have 4-5 Mil lyin' around, for a one bedroom...knock yourself out!
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Online w28th

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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #856 on: April 30, 2007, 04:08:52 PM »
While taking context into consideration is certainly important, Stern's design solutions generally look as though he purposely creates a situation where you don't even know it's there.  It's simply non-descript, uninspired architecture.  Not really a concept that should permiate through the Flats.
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Offline X

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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #857 on: April 30, 2007, 05:21:26 PM »
A city is a lot like an orchestra.  One wouldn't want 150 soloists or "starchitects"- that wouldn't be "inspired", it would be chaos.  Instead an orchestra and a city has to play as an ensemble.  This building plays well as a piece of an urban ensemble.  There is no reason for it to do anything more.  Central Park is the soloist, 15cpw plays a sensitive accompaniment in concert with the other supporting players around it.  The result is greater than its parts, because each player does what it must do, not what it can do to stand out.

Offline clvlndr

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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #858 on: April 30, 2007, 11:48:59 PM »
I'm skeptical of having tall buildings on the waterfront. Wouldn't they cast a lot of shadows? I'm thinking that in a weather challenged city like Cleveland you would want as much natural sunlight as possible in the Flats and Lakefront.

You're kidding, aren't you? ... please, tell me you're kidding.

Offline JDD941

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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #859 on: May 01, 2007, 11:35:19 AM »
^ Of course that is a serious statement....look how bad Chicago's waterfront sucks with those damn tall buildings!!!   :roll:

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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #860 on: May 01, 2007, 11:53:35 AM »
^ Of course that is a serious statement....look how bad Chicago's waterfront sucks with those damn tall buildings!!!   :roll:
I think what surf is saying is he might prefer buildings that "step" up from the waterfront on both sides of the flats, with the building looking more organic and less "planned"

Ahh ahh ahh...those building are not on the waterfront. Lake shore Blvd, plus the waterfront separates them.  Also, those buildings are in the Old Town, Gold coast, River North, Near North Side not downtown proper and they are still set back because of LSD

The downtown Chitown high rises are off the water WEST of LSG, Columbus Ave., grant/millennium park and all are built on the west side of Michigan ave, so the park get great light.  Its an impressive wall of 18-30 story buildings from the Hilton Towers (7 or 8 Street) going north all the way to Randolph.

If I was looking to live on either bank of the flats, I would be turned off if I was on the lower east or west bank but couldn't see the opposite bank or lake. 

I suspect the WHD and FEB condos will have to be taller in the next round of building - so buyers can have a view as when buying dense property having a view (balcony, solarium, terrace) is a plus
« Last Edit: May 01, 2007, 12:17:53 PM by MyTwoSense »
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Offline Htsguy

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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #861 on: May 01, 2007, 01:10:54 PM »
^Thanks for some thoughtful insights MyTwoSense.  Much more enjoyable reading than those posts that simply mock comments made by others on the forum.

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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #862 on: May 01, 2007, 01:44:24 PM »
^Thanks for some thoughtful insights MyTwoSense.  Much more enjoyable reading than those posts that simply mock comments made by others on the forum.

Htsguy...don't take all post at face value.  There are a lot of "comics" and "sarcastic smartasses" here on UO and along with the ACCURATE and up-to-date information they collectively bring to this site...they also bring "personalities"

Most people here are really really cool.  the longer you're here, you'll be able to understand that - UO is like one big waltson's/Jeffersons/Bunker/Ortiz/golden girls dysfuntional family.
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Offline 3231

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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #863 on: May 01, 2007, 06:54:58 PM »
Anyone notice that Litt's article mentioned 600 units of housing?

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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #864 on: May 01, 2007, 07:10:48 PM »
Quote
The basic elements of the development include 250,000 square feet of retail, with a movie theater, shops, galleries and restaurants; 500,000 to 1 million square feet of office space; and more than 600 residential units.

Those numbers keep edging upward. Sounds like Wolstein is getting some serious interest from potential tenants.

KJP did. 

It was originally 300 units, right?  Then 450 units when Lighthouse Landing got added and one tower was supposed to be residential and another commercial.  So maybe now both of the Lighthouse Landing towers are staying residential...? 

Offline KJP

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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #865 on: May 01, 2007, 07:34:14 PM »
I owe a phone call to some people to find out what the deal is.

The rising number of residential units is interesting. But what struck me was the square feet of office space -- 500,000 to 1 million?? Um, the 38-story Erieview Tower is 703,205 square feet, according to Bear Stearns Commercial Mortgage Securities Inc. I believe the old Higbee's building is about 500,000 square feet.

Both the residential and office components have gone way up.
« Last Edit: May 01, 2007, 07:43:20 PM by KJP »
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Offline 3231

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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #866 on: May 01, 2007, 07:47:20 PM »
I saw something interesting on a map of the Flats. This map shows the general footprint of FEB and the full build-out of Stonebridge. The only thing new that I saw was a large footprint on the west bank just south of the Main Ave bridge along the river. hmm

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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #867 on: May 01, 2007, 07:51:48 PM »
I saw something interesting on a map of the Flats. This map shows the general footprint of FEB and the full build-out of Stonebridge. The only thing new that I saw was a large footprint on the west bank just south of the Main Ave bridge along the river. hmm

What map?  Can you post a pic or link, so we're all on the same page.
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Offline KJP

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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #868 on: May 01, 2007, 07:58:55 PM »
Can you describe the footprint on the West Bank?
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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #869 on: May 01, 2007, 10:09:11 PM »
What map?  Can you post a pic or link, so we're all on the same page.

Sorry, can't share that stuff yet on this forum. But, I don't know much more than what I said.

KJP, I think its just a rectangle. It was just a shape. No words or labels.

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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #870 on: May 01, 2007, 10:28:43 PM »
What map?  Can you post a pic or link, so we're all on the same page.

Sorry, can't share that stuff yet on this forum. But, I don't know much more than what I said.

KJP, I think its just a rectangle. It was just a shape. No words or labels.

You tease!  :-P :wink:
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Offline musky

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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #871 on: May 07, 2007, 01:05:58 PM »
From WCPN:

Quote
Flats Eminent Domain Case to Begin Trial Today

Aired May 7, 2007

The Cleveland-Cuyahoga County Port Authority's bid to obtain a portion of Cleveland's East Flats under eminent domain is scheduled for trial today. ideastream's economics reporter Tasha Flournoy has more.

Listen to the MP3
http://www.wcpn.org/mp3/2007/05/0507flats.mp3

The land seizure would clear the way for developer Scott Wolstein's proposed $230 million riverfront neighborhood in the East Flats. Wolstein has already razed buildings on properties he controls, but has been unable to reach an agreement with several other property owners to purchase their land. So the Port Authority is suing to force the owners under eminent domain to sell the land at a price below what owners are asking. Port Authority attorney Steven Kaufman says the development serves a public purpose, therefore eminent domain applies.

    Steven Kaufman: This case involves a multitude of other public purposes, ranging from housing to transportation to all of the parks and green space, public space aspects of the project.

Cuyahoga County Probate Judge John E. Corrigan will hear arguments in the trial. If the judge decides the port has the right to take the properties, a jury trial would then decide fair prices. The trial is expected to last at least two weeks. Tasha Flournoy, 90.3.

Offline jamiec

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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #872 on: May 07, 2007, 02:01:29 PM »
The x-factor in this case is how much the judge likes lapdances.

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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #873 on: May 07, 2007, 02:04:53 PM »
^Nice.  Or if he tailgates in the "Pit"

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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #874 on: May 07, 2007, 11:32:51 PM »
Where I come from, you torch the buildings if they do not sell at your price! ;)

Either way, I'm glad the Wolstein said everything will be built according to plan even if it has to come out of his pocket to pay what these property owners are asking.  Just too bad the average Cleveland construction delay has to be prolonged even more with these several weeks of court appears...(80 witnesses?? on effing what? see below)

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Flats eminent domain trial opens
Posted by Tom Breckenridge May 07, 2007 14:22PM
Categories: Breaking News
Developer Scott Wolstein is "a wolf in sheep's clothing'' who is using the Cleveland port authority to illegally seize land for his $230 million neighborhood development on the Flats east bank, lawyers for property owners say.

Monday morning marked the start of the controversial eminent domain trial in Cuyahoga County Probate Court, where the Cleveland-Cuyahoga County port authority is suing to take nine properties for the development.

More at cleveland.com http://www.cleveland.com
« Last Edit: September 11, 2009, 10:46:38 AM by MayDay »
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