Author Topic: Cleveland: Flats East Bank  (Read 1602795 times)

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Offline Mov2Ohio

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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #770 on: March 18, 2007, 08:59:39 PM »
The Flats are starting to live up to their name!!! :-D








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Offline musky

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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #771 on: March 18, 2007, 10:05:57 PM »
Wow, they got a lot done since Friday when I was down there.


The empty spot in the second picture is where the Beach Club used to be....


Quote
For land held by Droe, including the Beach Club on Old River Road, the port started at $1 million and eventually raised its offer to $1.7 million.
Droe countered at $5 million and dropped to $3.5 million. At one point, Droe threatened to have an appraiser arrested if he came back to the property, according to the port.
Droe said an appraiser visited without first notifying him, and he didn't want it to happen again.
"My offer is back to $5 million," Droe said Friday.


I'm confused about this part. I drove through the area on Friday and half of the Beach Club was already in blight heaven.


My confusion on this still stands.
Anybody want to clear this up for me?

Offline twok2lcdcnc

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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #772 on: March 19, 2007, 05:22:24 PM »

For land held by Droe, including the Beach Club on Old River Road, the port started at $1 million and eventually raised its offer to $1.7 million.

Droe countered at $5 million and dropped to $3.5 million. At one point, Droe threatened to have an appraiser arrested if he came back to the property, according to the port.

Droe said an appraiser visited without first notifying him, and he didn't want it to happen again.

"My offer is back to $5 million," Droe said Friday.


Uh... yeah... I'm pretty new to all of this stuff... but I'm also pretty sure when somebody is trying to take your property by eminent domain, being hard headed and arrogant probably isn't the best approach.

I look forward to the flats being a desireable destination again someday. People with an attitude like that shouldn't be any part of it.

Offline Htsguy

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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #773 on: March 19, 2007, 06:49:52 PM »
Any property owner who simply argues that he is fighting ed due to the fact that he has not been offered enough money or Wolstein and/or the port is not negotiating in good faith lacks a lot of credibility in my mind.  If this was the ONLY issue why fight ed (the first step of the process where the court determines whether there are grounds for a taking in the first place).  Save everybody alot of time and money (including your own...attorney fees must be going through the roof), let everybody hire their experts and go to the valuation stage as quickly as possible.  If you are SO right with your numbers then you will make a lot of money quickly.  It is clear the owners have ulterior motives.  Probably want to keep their property so that if the development goes forward they can either demand a huge price due to the "changed and enhanced neighborhood" or simply run their business without putting much money into their properties and take advantage of the gleaming facility next door.  Like many of the posters, and for the reasons given above, I have little sympathy for these guys (especially Kassouf) and hoped they get hosed.

Online surfohio

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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #774 on: March 19, 2007, 09:36:30 PM »
I've met the guy who owns Heaven and Earth. I honestly feel bad for that guy.  Though it's not my kind of place, he put a lot of money into it and hoped that the neighborhood would eventually come back around.

My study of law and experience has left me with the impression that, for better or for worse, laws are mostly created and construed to the benefit of the powerful.

Offline Florida Guy

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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #775 on: March 20, 2007, 08:30:30 AM »
^ I would agree but what about when the law benefits the powerful to contribute to the greater good of the community?

Offline Htsguy

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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #776 on: March 20, 2007, 09:28:17 AM »
Let's keep in mind that the "powerful" Wolstein is taking a huge risk in the Flats and is putting his money where his mouth unlike many other large developers in town (Forest City to name one).  It is true he is receiving government subsidies for infrastructure and the like (what developer now a days does not receive such perks) and lots of cooperation from the bureaucracy, but the odds are very good that he could lose much of his investment on this project.  It would be lot easier for him to take his millions and develop some virgin land in Medina County or even more likely some fast growing county in the Sun Belt.  Hell if I were him I would just find some safe investment fund and go play golf.  I wouldn't bore you with all the potential pitfalls of this project (which a smart businessman can foresee) but the retail component is probably the biggest risk. 

I don't think government officials are working with Wolstein because of his "power" but because they are just thankful somebody is finally interested in correcting the mess that the East Bank of the Flats has become.  And for Wolstein, why go through this aggravation.  Because I truly believe he wants to do something positive for his home town.  For all his dad's arrogance, the family is know for this as many of our institutions will attest (from Cleveland State to the simply ball field next door to my house in Cleveland Hts.)  Now lets just start building and argue about the architecture.

Offline gotribe

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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #777 on: March 20, 2007, 09:38:43 AM »
Are there developments similar to this one in cities similar to Cleveland (Milwaukee, KC, STL etc) that have proven to work?  Just curious.  Because as stated above, I have wondered what makes Wolstien think this can pay off.

Offline 3231

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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #778 on: March 20, 2007, 09:43:07 AM »
They think that the unique local (located next to the water and all the bridges) will provide some great spaces and places.  They are very confident about it. After seeing their presentation, I'm sold.

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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #779 on: March 20, 2007, 01:59:22 PM »
Is there anything in the presentation that we haven't seen yet (that you can tell us about)?

Offline 3231

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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #780 on: March 20, 2007, 02:13:17 PM »
Its been a while since the presentation. I posted some of the things that I remembered on this thread a while back.

Offline musky

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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #781 on: March 20, 2007, 09:10:21 PM »

For land held by Droe, including the Beach Club on Old River Road, the port started at $1 million and eventually raised its offer to $1.7 million.

Droe countered at $5 million and dropped to $3.5 million. At one point, Droe threatened to have an appraiser arrested if he came back to the property, according to the port.

Droe said an appraiser visited without first notifying him, and he didn't want it to happen again.

"My offer is back to $5 million," Droe said Friday.


Uh... yeah... I'm pretty new to all of this stuff... but I'm also pretty sure when somebody is trying to take your property by eminent domain, being hard headed and arrogant probably isn't the best approach.

I look forward to the flats being a desireable destination again someday. People with an attitude like that shouldn't be any part of it.







The empty spot in the second picture is where the Beach Club used to be....


Quote
For land held by Droe, including the Beach Club on Old River Road, the port started at $1 million and eventually raised its offer to $1.7 million.
Droe countered at $5 million and dropped to $3.5 million. At one point, Droe threatened to have an appraiser arrested if he came back to the property, according to the port.
Droe said an appraiser visited without first notifying him, and he didn't want it to happen again.
"My offer is back to $5 million," Droe said Friday.


I'm confused about this part. I drove through the area on Friday and half of the Beach Club was already in blight heaven.


My confusion on this still stands.
Anybody want to clear this up for me?



HELLO?
Is this mic on?



Offline gavster

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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #782 on: March 20, 2007, 09:40:24 PM »
i remember reading somewhere...maybe a couple weeks ago that the owner of the beach club sold. i think the PD's info is outdated. i heard firsthand from a port board member last week that only four owners were left to settle and he seemed pretty optimistic that they would be settled before this goes any further through the courts

Offline musky

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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #783 on: March 20, 2007, 09:58:43 PM »


Thank you very much.
I thought I was in the DaninDC doghouse for a minute there.

Offline MyTwoSense

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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #784 on: March 20, 2007, 10:11:23 PM »


Thank you very much.
I thought I was in the DaninDC doghouse for a minute there.

Musky...Elvis?   lawd...................... first the ambiguously gay duo avatar, now an Elvis smiillie thingie.
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Offline musky

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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #785 on: March 20, 2007, 10:15:42 PM »
Just avoiding a major photoshop project I should be working on - but my third IPA is keeping me from being focused.

Offline Htsguy

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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #786 on: March 21, 2007, 04:22:53 PM »
Just great.  The appropriation preliminary hearing scheduled for March 26, 2007 has been rescheduled AGAIN (I think this is something like the 4th time) according to the court docket.  It appears oral arguments on the motion for summary judgment were held today.  I hope this means that the parties are entering into serious settlement discussions as suggested above but I am not counting on it.

Offline Boreas

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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #787 on: March 21, 2007, 05:32:25 PM »
Senator Timothy Grendell is going to apply his philosophy to eminent-domain in Ohio.  I think this is a subterfuge to use "feel good" language to push his other agenda(s).  Thought this fit in here.  Could move it, I suppose

Eminent domain limits sought

By STEPHEN ORAVECZ Tribune Chronicle

COLUMBUS — Legislation in the state Legislature could put limits on Warren’s plans to aggressively use eminent domain to acquire blighted property for downtown commercial development....SNIP...
Cafaro said she agrees with Grendell that eminent domain laws should apply uniformly through Ohio, but she wants to make sure the final bill is fair to cities such as Warren that need it for redevelopment.
soravecz@tribune-chronicle.com
« Last Edit: September 07, 2009, 01:27:25 PM by Boreal »

Offline 3231

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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #788 on: March 21, 2007, 06:43:12 PM »
Just great.  The appropriation preliminary hearing scheduled for March 26, 2007 has been rescheduled AGAIN (I think this is something like the 4th time) according to the court docket.  It appears oral arguments on the motion for summary judgment were held today.  I hope this means that the parties are entering into serious settlement discussions as suggested above but I am not counting on it.

Who motioned for summary judgment--Wolstein or the landowners?

Offline Htsguy

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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #789 on: March 21, 2007, 07:23:32 PM »
^2 property holders filed motions for summary judgment and the Port (Wolstein) filed a partial motion for summary judgment regarding the "issue of inability to agree pursuant to ORC 163.04"

Offline KJP

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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #790 on: March 21, 2007, 08:06:27 PM »
Senator Timothy Grendell is going to apply his philosophy to eminent-domain in Ohio.  I think this is a subterfuge to use "feel good" language to push his other agenda(s).  Thought this fit in here.  Could move it, I suppose

This might be a good thread for that....

http://www.urbanohio.com/forum2/index.php?topic=3921.0
"Don't tell me what you value. Show me your budget and I'll tell you what you value." -- Joe Biden

Offline Boreas

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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #791 on: March 22, 2007, 06:07:03 AM »
Senator Timothy Grendell is going to apply his philosophy to eminent-domain in Ohio.  I think this is a subterfuge to use "feel good" language to push his other agenda(s).  Thought this fit in here.  Could move it, I suppose
This might be a good thread for that....
http://www.urbanohio.com/forum2/index.php?topic=3921.0
Thanks.  I forgot all about that thread!

Offline Florida Guy

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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #792 on: March 22, 2007, 11:24:02 AM »
Flats land seizure debated in court
« Last Edit: September 08, 2009, 01:38:37 PM by Florida Guy »

Offline MyTwoSense

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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #793 on: March 22, 2007, 11:35:46 AM »
I love how they keep using the phrase, "fair market value" when the majority of owners initially wanted their property values lowered to pay less taxes.

If they are given "fair" market value, i think the current owners should then be billed retroactively the difference between the fair market value and their current value and deduct that from the final sale amount!
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Offline KJP

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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #794 on: March 22, 2007, 11:37:58 AM »
It's not yet on the port authority's website (http://www.portofcleveland.com/), but I got a press release this morning from the port regarding an agreement with Shaia's Main Street Parking LLC. It doesn't say much on what the agreement will allow/create, but I will inquire further.
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Offline Htsguy

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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #795 on: March 24, 2007, 12:17:02 PM »
Does anybody have some "inside information" regarding the settlement discussions that were suppose to take place on Friday at Judge Corrigan's insistence.  Based on the PD article describing the arguments on the summary judgment motions, the negotiations would seem to be a waste of time as it looks as though all the parties are pretty well dug in and not budging.  Also I note from the docket that the Port filed a motion to compel the production of documents on Friday which is not a good sign that discussions are going to bear fruit.  I just wish the court would set a new hearing date as soon as possible.

Offline MuRrAy HiLL

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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #796 on: March 29, 2007, 12:28:58 AM »
Tonight at the "Professionals in the City," Steve Strnisha mentioned:

-500 residential units (ranging from expensive condos to renting at $700/month)
-besides the water front location and city convienences, they are going for being "unique to cleveland"--no copy cat schemes
-Buy and sell residental units by the end of this year (don't think build was mentioned for this year, which is expected)
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Offline Robclevoh

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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #797 on: March 29, 2007, 01:06:34 PM »
I did some research on William Droe & Richard Droe (Droe Express System Inc)  it seems like a family business. They own 4 land parcels all in the flats, 3 of 4 taxes are paid but one DELQ. For $76,566, county values the land and building at $960,000

The mailing address seems to be his home Cleveland hts.


PRIMARY OWNER Droe Express System Inc 
PROPERTY ADDRESS 1146 Old River Rd, Cleveland, OH 44113
TAX MAILING ADDRESS Droe Express System Inc, ***********, Cleveland, OH 44118-3529
LEGAL DESCRIPTION 194 195 SEC MAIN ST Field Definitions
PROPERTY CLASS NIGHTCLUB RESTAURANT

See for your self here at the county auditor

http://auditor.cuyahogacounty.us/repi/taxbill.asp?txtParcel=10113036
« Last Edit: March 29, 2007, 02:11:16 PM by Robclevoh »

Offline MyTwoSense

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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #798 on: March 29, 2007, 02:05:41 PM »
although we can look a persons address up, etc on our own, I don't think its fair to post it here on urbanohio.
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Offline Robclevoh

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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #799 on: March 29, 2007, 02:11:57 PM »
your right, i did edit!

Offline CH Jake

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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #800 on: March 30, 2007, 08:29:01 AM »
Mssrs. Droe seem to be getting roughed up by the board here.  We don't have all the facts so let's give them some benefit of the doubt, eh?

Although no one has said what the tax values of all of Droes' properties are, if just this one property out of four is valued by the county at almost one million, I'm surprised that the Port Authority thinks that all four properties can be had for only $1.7 million.   

I don't know about any of you, but there's no way I would sell my house for anything close to the tax value -- more like double the tax value.  And I don't have a business running out of my home. 

Say what you will about the quality of the Beach Club experience, it is an operating business which has to count for something in the "blight" equation.  This probably gives them more of a leg to stand on in the lawsuit than an owner of a vacant building.

All of this certainly makes the Droes' offer of $3.5 million more reasonable in my mind.  Particularly if the alternative is legal fees and delaying the project while the Droes appeal. 


Without all of the facts it's hard to know whether even $3.5 million is reasonable. 

Going back to the Auditor's website, it looks like the following market rates are listed:

Parcel -033  $15,000
Parcel -034  $18,300
Parcel -035  $247,000
Parcel -036  $958,500

Total:  $1,238,800

So the one parcel really is the bulk of the value.  The Port's initial offer was only $1 million?  I'd be insulted too.  Not a good start to "good faith" negotiations.   $1.7 million also doesn't seem like a true market price.   The Droes' initial offer of $5 million also seems a bit out of reach though. 

We're still missing some of the facts.

Does anyone know what the two different appraisal values were?  The Port's first appraisal was higher than their second appraisal.  I'd be interested to hear what that first appraised value was and what their justification was for lowering it.

Also, does anyone know what value the Droes placed on the properties in the tax matter?  Did they ask for a reduced tax valuation?  And if so what was it?



I'd bet that unless the Port offers at least $3.5 million the Droes and their wounded pride are going to drag out the case as much as possible.  Ultimately the court decision is going to come down somewhere in between $1.7 million and $3.5 million, and the Droes will appeal. 



Here's hoping the project survives.





Offline Htsguy

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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #801 on: April 03, 2007, 10:31:48 PM »
Probate Court docket reflects that land appropriation hearing has been rescheduled for May 7, 2007.  Hopefully it will finally go forward on this date.

Offline PPayne216

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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #802 on: April 04, 2007, 01:31:59 PM »
Does anyone know more about Fairmount Properties, who is partnered with Wolstein to do the retail portion of the project?  I know they did First & Main in Hudson but I haven't heard about anything else they've done in the area and there website gives the impression that they've been doing a lot of sprawl development.
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Offline willyboy

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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #803 on: April 04, 2007, 01:56:42 PM »
From Crains today.....  They need to go into one of the proposed projects downtown. 

Another exit from the Flats
by STAN BULLARD

3:21 pm, April 3, 2007

Another Flats landmark has shut its doors.

Arhaus Furniture closed its longtime clearance center at 1296 Old River Road March 31. A sign on the store directs shoppers to Arhaus’s warehouse clearance center in Brooklyn.

More at crainscleveland.com http://www.crainscleveland.com
« Last Edit: September 11, 2009, 10:51:35 AM by MayDay »
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Offline Htsguy

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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #804 on: April 04, 2007, 05:27:33 PM »
Interesting.  When Arhaus first open in 1986 there was absolutely no residential component yet they apparently did good business in the Flats.  Today there  probably 2,000 people living within walking distance and the store has no traffic.  You would think with all the people coming and going in all the apartment buildings at their doorstep a furniture store would be the most likely retail tenant in the Flats.  Wonder what this says about the possibility of retail in Wolstein's project.  I have always thought this was going to be the most problematic aspect for a variety of reasons I won't bore you with, but others on this thread seem to feel it is not a concern.  Any thoughts?

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