Author Topic: Cleveland: Flats East Bank  (Read 1591884 times)

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Offline DaninDC

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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #630 on: December 18, 2006, 09:59:22 AM »
Are the brick structures going to be demo'd?  If so, that's just sad.

Do you have any shots of the Old River Road buildings from the street?  I can't say I remember what the fronts look like.
« Last Edit: December 18, 2006, 10:00:23 AM by DaninDC »

Offline the pope

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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #631 on: December 18, 2006, 10:12:25 AM »
^maybe go browse through the main page

NE > Cleveland > Neighborhood > Downtown, scroll down to Flats & Warehouse District

Offline musky

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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #632 on: December 18, 2006, 11:09:38 AM »
I'm all about saving buildings -  but all of them are heaps of crap.
IMO, the only worth saving is Kindlers.

Offline MayDay

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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #633 on: December 18, 2006, 11:35:42 AM »
Do my eyes deceive me, or is that ColDayMan running?

Offline 3231

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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #634 on: December 18, 2006, 11:36:01 AM »
I see too much knee-jerk preservationism in this thread.

Offline the pope

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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #635 on: December 18, 2006, 12:30:28 PM »
^^sorry, rumors untrue, that is not said Mr. DayMan

Offline MayDay

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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #636 on: December 18, 2006, 12:31:50 PM »
I didn't think so - unless it's Giveaway Day at Hot Sauce Williams, ColDay runs for NO one. :lol:

Offline Htsguy

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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #637 on: December 18, 2006, 06:36:56 PM »
I am interested in seeing what type of legal challenges the property owners can bring to contest the demolition permit approved by the Planning Commission.

Also, I recently checked the court docket (I believe the hearing is now scheduled for sometime in mid Jan. after the December continuance) and observed from court filings that there have been numerous discovery battles.  Without reading the briefs I really cannot determine what they are all about.  The docket reveals that the Probate Court has mostly ruled in favor of the property owners in connection with the various motions.  Don't believe this is a sign of what will happen on the merits.  The lawyers are getting rich though.  God Bless America.

Online mrnyc

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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #638 on: December 18, 2006, 08:34:28 PM »
there are only to buildings there worth saving, and both of those for local historic purposes only not architectural merits. those are kindlers, the oldest bar in cleveland (not counting dunhams tavern) and the original rockefeller warehouse. both of those should be saved and incorporated into wolstein's plans. unfortunately, i see a distinct lack of creativity in this project so far so they'll prob get torn down w/o a care -- unless anyone knows a couple local julia butterfly hill's who would squat in those two buildings to save them? heh.
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Offline DaninDC

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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #639 on: December 19, 2006, 10:26:34 AM »
Quote
unless anyone knows a couple local julia butterfly hill's who would squat in those two buildings to save them? heh.

I'll be at Kindler's tomorrow, then.  Who's with me?

I know that most of the buildings slated for demolition are not fantastic.  Some of them probably need to go.  Cleveland doesn't have the most illustrious history with preservation, though, and often times, things have a habit of getting demolished with the only new construction being a parking lot.  Frankly, I fear the homogenization of downtown, which is not an unrealistic possibility.


Offline StrapHanger

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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #640 on: December 19, 2006, 11:09:52 AM »
^ and ^^: my feelings exactly.  I welcome all the new housing but don't have a great deal of confidence in the FEB design (impress me!).  I don't want an empty, decrepit downtown no matter how much character, but I really don't want crocker park (I know, different developer) plopped down and erasing all traces of what was there before. 
"Cleveland, as you see, is not an apple, but a bunch of grapes each of which has its own particular pattern-some large, others small, some round, others long and narrow, some sweet, others sour, some sound, others rotten throughout."  -Howard Whipple Green, 1932

Offline 3231

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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #641 on: January 15, 2007, 01:18:17 PM »
Here are some numbers that I received in December about the project:

455 residential units
280,000 sq ft of retail space
800,000 sq ft of office space
2k parking spaces
2.5 acres of park space

That sure is a lot of office space!!

Offline the pope

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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #642 on: January 15, 2007, 01:46:38 PM »
^well, like otherwise stated on the forum, Class A vacancy downtown is below 10%

Offline Map Boy

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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #643 on: January 15, 2007, 02:37:14 PM »
that's more residential units that I'd previously thought they'd build.  I wonder if the amount of office space will change if they can't lure a major tenant (Baker-Hostetler, for example).  And those 2,000 parking spaces scare the hell outta me.  They'd better find a good way to incoporate them into the design of the place!

Anyone noticed if the demo has begun?

Offline From Heights to Harlem

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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #644 on: January 15, 2007, 03:02:43 PM »
Maybe this has been answered before, but why is there a need for 2k parking spaces?  There is a train stop (possibly two) adjacent to this community, correct?  Yes, there will need to be parking spaces for visiting workers, handicapped, tourist, but to encourage people to use public transportaiton and rebuild faith in the public transportation network, building 2K parking spaces, doesn't build alot of confidence and seems rather a$$ backwards.

I can see one car per unit, but not 2k.  With so many people in the WHD and the Flats, who will need a car? 500 spaces seems more appropriate to me.  Most people who live in the area will work downtown, I do understand that people will need to get to other portions of the city and would like to keep a car.  I thought I read in another thread that there are too many parking lots in downtown cleveland, gateway in particular, that aren't being utilized as is, why build more?
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Offline 3231

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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #645 on: January 15, 2007, 03:29:00 PM »
  And those 2,000 parking spaces scare the hell outta me. 

What are you talking about?? I'd say 5 spaces per unit sounds about right to me. ;)

Offline 3231

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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #646 on: January 15, 2007, 03:29:47 PM »
Anyone know how many workers would fit into 800,000 sq ft of office space?

Offline Boreas

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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #647 on: January 15, 2007, 03:42:42 PM »
Anyone know how many workers would fit into 800,000 sq ft of office space?
My 400,000 sq ft office building has 1000 employees, so about 2,000.

Offline X

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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #648 on: January 15, 2007, 09:46:09 PM »
Anyone know how many workers would fit into 800,000 sq ft of office space?
My 400,000 sq ft office building has 1000 employees, so about 2,000.

That's actually pretty lavish, spacewise.  The standard is anywhere from 1 office worker per 150 sq ft up to about 1 per 400 sq ft.  So anywhere up to 5,000-ish, but probably lower.  So really 2,000 spaces isn't alot for 5,000 workers, 455 units of residential, and 280,000 sq ft of retail.

Offline 3231

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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #649 on: January 15, 2007, 10:01:50 PM »
Anyone know how many workers would fit into 800,000 sq ft of office space?
My 400,000 sq ft office building has 1000 employees, so about 2,000.

That's actually pretty lavish, spacewise.  The standard is anywhere from 1 office worker per 150 sq ft up to about 1 per 400 sq ft.  So anywhere up to 5,000-ish, but probably lower.  So really 2,000 spaces isn't alot for 5,000 workers, 455 units of residential, and 280,000 sq ft of retail.

I'd like to add that my source is second hand. However, that second hand source had put those numbers in print. 

Offline KJP

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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #650 on: January 15, 2007, 11:24:10 PM »
Here are some numbers that I received in December about the project:

455 residential units
280,000 sq ft of retail space
800,000 sq ft of office space
2k parking spaces
2.5 acres of park space

That sure is a lot of office space!!

Sounds to me like Lighthouse Landing has been incorporated into Wolstein's plan. Nancy Lesic (Wolstein's PR guru) told me that the development team hadn't decided whether to make LL office or keep it as two residential towers. Sounds like they're splitting the difference??
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Offline Map Boy

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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #651 on: January 16, 2007, 09:39:58 AM »
Let's say there was 1 space for each housing unit:

1 x 455 = 455

Now, parking standards for retail in Cleveland are a bit ridiculous, so let's tone them down a little to 20 spaces for every 10,000 sq. ft:

20 x 28 = 560

Office space?  I don't know, maybe the same ratio (I'm making this up as I go along):

20 x 80 = 1,600

That number represents one space for every 3 workers, if the above space estimates per employee are correct.

That makes a total of 2,615 parking spaces, which is 30% more than they're proposing with the numbers we're seeing here.  I agree that 2,000 sounds like too much, but it is probably far less than they would be permitted to provide or than would be customary for a project built in this city.  So, let's see where they're going to put it and if they can tuck it away somewhere behind townhouses or retail or use it as a buffer from the busy railroad tracks to the north, then it might just be OK. 
« Last Edit: January 16, 2007, 09:40:55 AM by Mister Good Day »

Offline KJP

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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #652 on: February 02, 2007, 10:39:57 PM »
Flats property owners are appealing the Planning Commission's Dec. 15 approval of the demolition of their buildings....

http://planning.city.cleveland.oh.us/bza/agenda/crr02-05-07.htm

9:30    Ward 13
Appeal of Flats Waterfront  Associates, et al   
Calendar No. 07-7: Joe Cimperman
 
Flats Waterfront Associates, East Riverfront Properties Limited Partnership, Prime Properties Limited Partnership, 1124 Old River Road Limited Partnership, Cuyahoga Lakefront LLC, K&S Parking Co., Inc., George-Khouri Family Limited Partnership, #1 Media, Old River Road Cleveland LLC, HDV-Cleveland LLC, MSGG-Cleveland LLC, Droe Express System, Inc. and 1146 Old River Road, Inc., by and through their respective counsel, appeal under the authority of Section 76-6(b) of the Charter of the City of Cleveland and Section 329.02(d) of the Cleveland Codified Ordinances from the decision of the City of Cleveland Planning Commission to approve the Flats East Bank Redevelopment Demolition Request rendered on December 15, 2006. (Filed 1-17-07)
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Offline 3231

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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #653 on: February 02, 2007, 10:54:41 PM »
I also heard that the ED proceedings have been pushed back to March.

Offline Htsguy

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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #654 on: February 03, 2007, 09:24:33 AM »
^That is what the Probate Court docket indicates.  This is the second trial continuance.

Offline clvlndr

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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #655 on: February 03, 2007, 02:48:08 PM »
sucks.

Offline MyTwoSense

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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #656 on: February 04, 2007, 05:21:02 PM »
sucks.

What sucks?  The pushback date or the amount of planned parking spaces?!
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Offline 3231

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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #657 on: February 04, 2007, 05:25:46 PM »
I'm seeing again that they are listing 455 unites of housing. This is quite a jump from the original number of 330.

Offline KJP

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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #658 on: February 04, 2007, 10:14:19 PM »
(cough -- Lighthouse Landing -- cough). Excuse me, this cold, dry air is really getting to me.  :-D
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Offline FrqntFlyr

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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #659 on: February 04, 2007, 10:23:15 PM »
^Cool.

I actually re-read the Lighthouse Landing thread after seeing Wimwar's post earlier today.  I think the original plans were for ~250 units?  But it looks like 125 are being added.  Does this mean only 1 of the 2 Lighthouse Landing towers will be built?  Or only 1 will be residential and the other office?  I suppose that they probably don't want to announce any of this until ED proceedings are over. 

Offline w28th

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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #660 on: February 05, 2007, 12:32:10 PM »
Flats Property Owners Lose Eminent Domain Appeal

POSTED: 12:45 pm EST February 5, 2007
UPDATED: 12:59 pm EST February 5, 2007

CLEVELAND -- There's a new development in the ongoing battle over property in the Flats.

Thirteen owners of bars, restaurants and parking lots have lost another appeal to stop the demolition.

On Monday, city officials said no to stopping eminent domain on the Flat's east bank.

Cuyahoga County Port Authority and builder Scott Wolstein plan to redevelop the area but remaining business owners said they're not being treated fairly and are not getting fair offers for their businesses.
"When you stand at the corner of Euclid Avenue and East Ninth Street in Cleveland, you stand at one of the busiest corners in the world -- and in the heart of a shopping district known far and wide for its many fine shops."

Offline sky

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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #661 on: February 05, 2007, 12:42:56 PM »
The Lighthouse Landing plans were really cool!  The way they layed out the project made a lot of sense.  But since that site is very big, I wouldn't be surprised if Wolstein increases the density.  He may want to add more stuff (retail, parking, housing, office) than the Shaia's had planned.  Can't wait to see!!

Offline MyTwoSense

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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #662 on: February 05, 2007, 09:10:22 PM »
The Lighthouse Landing plans were really cool!  The way they layed out the project made a lot of sense.  But since that site is very big, I wouldn't be surprised if Wolstein increases the density.  He may want to add more stuff (retail, parking, housing, office) than the Shaia's had planned.  Can't wait to see!!

why would you want to see MORE parking?  There is a rapid transit line adjacent to this and why do people who live in the center of the city need more parking.  I dont want to hear excuse about those driving in to work, now is the time to condition them to use public transportation.
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Offline Htsguy

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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #663 on: February 05, 2007, 10:38:07 PM »
That news blurb is very confusing.  I am guessing (and just guessing at this point without having done further research) that what this is referencing is that an administrative appeal by the property owners of the Planning Commission's green light allowing demolition of certain buildings owned by Wolstein has been denied.  This aspect of the  "drama" really has nothing to do with the eminent domain action (which still has not been tried so how can there be an appeal).

Offline 3231

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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #664 on: February 06, 2007, 06:51:27 AM »
^are you sure. I read it the opposite way.  In December, Wolstein applied for and was granted permission to start demo. These 13 land owners banded together, appealed that decision and lost the appeal yesterday.

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