Author Topic: Cleveland: Flats East Bank  (Read 1572410 times)

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Offline Map Boy

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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #595 on: November 14, 2006, 10:08:17 AM »
Wow, the silence is deadly down here on Old River Road.  What's poppin with this project these days?  I've heard nothing about the legal proceedings...

However, word on the streets is that the development is now showing buildings on Shaia's property.  What type/size is not clear, though.   Apparently, the response to FEB from the office market has been strong, with a fairly large portion coming from outside of the existing Downtown market and the region.

Plans still include anchor tenants in a bookstore, cinema, gym, and grocer, and talks of a school are being floated as well.  Otherwise, the neighborhood commercial retail tenant is the target.

Anyone have more news?

Offline KJP

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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #596 on: November 14, 2006, 04:12:16 PM »
Interesting rumors. If you hear more details, please pass along. You've got my e-mail address (if not, PM me).

It's not so easy for me to go to DDR anymore for info after my reporting on the Shaia/Lighthouse Landing vs. DDR/Flats East Bank squabble. It painted DDR in a bad light, and her honor Nancy Lesic wasn't too happy with me.
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Offline MyTwoSense

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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #597 on: November 14, 2006, 05:01:43 PM »
Nancy Lesic wasn't too happy with me.

Forget Nancy....We love ya man!!
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Offline KJP

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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #598 on: November 15, 2006, 12:42:36 PM »
Thanks bro
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Offline clvlndr

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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #599 on: December 03, 2006, 01:54:40 PM »
Discovery was to be closed in late Nov. and trial was to begin in December.  With Shaia now out of the way, and Woltein controlling 73% of the land, Eminent Domain is now against the rag-tag bunch holding the other 27%.  ED would have been easier pre-Norwood, but now there’s very heightened scrutiny when using terms such as “blighted” (private property) or econ development as the means justifying the public taking of private property.  However, one would think the ‘taking’ aspect would be ameliorated since it’s clear these owners are milking the system in fighting for low assessments when the Flats was dead and, now, asking the max.  Wolstein may get from under this by articulating that he offered these guys FMV for their props based on what their most recent assessments -- thus, meaning Norwood, in fact, would not apply.  Also the fact Hustler hustled his club’s improvements through after Wolstein announced should put Larry Flynt on weaker grounds.  It remains to be seen.  I’m surprised by the silence, though.
« Last Edit: December 03, 2006, 01:57:25 PM by clvlndr »

Offline Htsguy

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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #600 on: December 05, 2006, 09:47:54 PM »
Probate Court docket reflects that the "preliminary hearing" scheduled for December 12, 2006 has been continued.  No new date given.

Offline musky

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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #601 on: December 08, 2006, 04:13:52 PM »
At class on Wednesday night, we were supposed to have guest speakers in to discuss the project but was told they two speakers were giving a deposition.

Then this comes up today -

From Crain's:

Quote


Wolstein Group seeks permission to raze Flats buildings

By STAN BULLARD

4:45 pm, December 8, 2006

Property acquisition may be incomplete, but Wolstein Group is scheduled to ask Cleveland City Planning Commission at its meeting on Friday, Dec. 15, for permission to demolish eight buildings on Old River Road for its proposed $230 million Flats East Bank project.

A draft agenda circulated today by the city planning staff, says the to-be-flattened structures are on Old River and Main Avenue but noted the staff had not yet obtained individual building addresses from the developer. The agenda notes the developer will also ask for fencing to secure the site.

More at crainscleveland.com http://www.crainscleveland.com
« Last Edit: September 11, 2009, 10:59:26 AM by MayDay »

Offline mrnyc

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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #602 on: December 08, 2006, 05:00:28 PM »
does anybody else think it would be a good idea if somebody could get down there and take some pics before we lose something? a final east bank photo memento tour?
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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #603 on: December 08, 2006, 05:24:09 PM »
I'll dig up some pics later this weekend, but honestly I can only think of maybe one or two buildings that are the least bit remarkable. The structures that used to hold the bars along the river aren't historic for the most part.

Offline musky

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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #604 on: December 08, 2006, 07:17:52 PM »
I did a general search on Flicker and found 712 pics, athough most of them ar the typical skyline/lit bridge shots.
There were a few gems hidden within.

http://www.flickr.com/search/?q=cleveland%20flats&w=all

Offline JDD941

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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #605 on: December 08, 2006, 07:58:14 PM »
Mr. Gorbachev..uh...Wolstein..TEAR DOWN THE FLATS!

Offline From Heights to Harlem

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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #606 on: December 09, 2006, 09:58:30 AM »
will this affect the shaker trains?  Will the rapid be changed/updated to accomodate the influx of residents (potential users) and visitors.  Will the construction interfere with the trains?  will they continue to be surface or will it be buried?
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Offline KJP

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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #607 on: December 09, 2006, 06:40:32 PM »
No. There are no plans to change the operation of the Waterfront Line. If ridership increases as a result of the FEB's completion several years from now, then RTA will probably consider changes.

None of the construction intrudes on the RTA Waterfront Line's right of way -- although there will probably be a lot of construction vehicles crossing the tracks on Main Avenue. Nothing will be built over the RTA tracks.
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Offline jamiec

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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #608 on: December 10, 2006, 09:42:36 AM »
Beyond the boardroom
Sunday, December 10, 2006

Q: The Flats project is not a DDR project. It's a Scott Wolstein project. Your critics say that's because the risk is too great for a publicly [fni: no hyphen pls: ]-NT%>traded company. Is that true?

A: It's a Scott and Iris Wolstein project. My mom won't forgive me if I don't tell you that. It was my dad and I, and she's taken over my father's interest.

More at http://www.cleveland.com/business/plaindealer/index.ssf?/base/business/1165743495319330.xml&coll=2
« Last Edit: September 11, 2009, 10:59:56 AM by MayDay »

Offline zaceman

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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #609 on: December 10, 2006, 11:03:45 AM »
wow 500,000 sq ft??  thats pretty huge, I wonder how big that office building would be

Offline From Heights to Harlem

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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #610 on: December 10, 2006, 11:27:48 AM »
Why don't thy ever say anything about public transportation, its right at their door?   :?

500k square feet?  Thats a big building, I wonder how tall that would be?  This proposed building would definitely change the look and feel of the flats and (potentially) block the view (of the west flats) from people who own homes in its site line.  This in turn makes any building built afterward, that much more desireable - as I would think the view is a top 5 selling point. (or is the view of the East Banks more diserable?)  Luckily there is enough lakefront/riverfront property to develop before its saturated.
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Offline AmrapinVA

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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #611 on: December 10, 2006, 02:39:30 PM »
Damn....500,000 sq. ft. Isn't that around the size of the old Ameritrust building that is going to get leveled on 9th and Euclid?

Offline From Heights to Harlem

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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #612 on: December 10, 2006, 04:12:31 PM »
Damn....500,000 sq. ft. Isn't that around the size of the old Ameritrust building that is going to get leveled on 9th and Euclid?

I thought I read the powers that be are still trying to decide what to do with that building?  Why tear it down unless its absolutely necessary?  I don't love or hate the building, but I think its a one of a kind gem in Cleveland that shouldn't be lost.
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Offline Map Boy

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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #613 on: December 10, 2006, 05:12:47 PM »
There's another thread for that conversation...

Somehow, I missed this part of the interview in reading the Wolstein interview online.  Maybe there are two links?

Anyhoo, I'm surprised that there's so much office space being discussed and also that DFAS and Baker Hostetler are in the coversation.  I guess I'll take 'em wherever I can get 'em, but I don't want to spread out the traditional Downtown office core too much.  Then again, if this makes the FEB more feasible... hell, let the market do its thing!

Also, I'm thrilled to hear that Wolstein thinks they can start demo and construction to that significant extent before the e.d. proceedings are through.  That really surprised me!

Offline urbanlife

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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #614 on: December 10, 2006, 08:35:04 PM »
Also, I'm thrilled to hear that Wolstein thinks they can start demo and construction to that significant extent before the e.d. proceedings are through.  That really surprised me!

yeah, i thought they had to redo the street grid and significantly upgrade the sewers, electrical, etc.   i guess the office building #1 would be by the bend in the RTA tracks, so maybe that site is OK, but the residential and other uses?  i'm not sure how that will play out.
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Offline KJP

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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #615 on: December 10, 2006, 11:00:55 PM »
They do. The demolitions are needed to start putting in the infrastructure for the new street grid. New construction will follow, although some might be possible to do simultaneously. For example, Front Street needs no realignment, and construction on two locations for the office component could start before the other aspects of the project do.
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Offline sooner

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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #616 on: December 11, 2006, 08:41:40 AM »
The DFAS building was contemplated for the loop in the WFL.  It was 10-12 floors, hardly 500,000.  I can't imagine where a second office building would fit in the original scheme.  KJP, do you know if there has been any significant changes in the original layout....or is Wolstien cooperating with someone else on the second bldg?  perhaps up the hill?
Since developers are usually loathe to talk about potential tenants, I have to believe that these buildings are closer to reality then we know.

Online 3231

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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #617 on: December 11, 2006, 08:43:04 AM »
The DFAS building was contemplated for the loop in the WFL.  It was 10-12 floors, hardly 500,000.  I can't imagine where a second office building would fit in the original scheme.  KJP, do you know if there has been any significant changes in the original layout....or is Wolstien cooperating with someone else on the second bldg?  perhaps up the hill?
Since developers are usually loathe to talk about potential tenants, I have to believe that these buildings are closer to reality then we know.

hmm.. maybe in Shaia's location.  ;)

Offline gotribe

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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #618 on: December 11, 2006, 08:46:40 AM »
Actually, the footprint of the 10-12 story structure in the renderings could easily be
500,000 sqft.

Offline sky

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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #619 on: December 11, 2006, 10:13:42 AM »
The 200 - 300 units of residential could be Shaia's Lighthouse Landing proposal !!

Offline KJP

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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #620 on: December 11, 2006, 11:50:51 AM »
Actually, Wimwar got my reference. I hope that answers Sooner's question, too.
« Last Edit: December 11, 2006, 11:51:19 AM by KJP »
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Offline sooner

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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #621 on: December 11, 2006, 02:38:51 PM »
That would explain why Shaia sold his property when he was probably in the best position to defend himself from the ED action. 

Offline Map Boy

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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #622 on: December 11, 2006, 02:56:37 PM »
What?  Now I'm lost!  He sold it and now he's going to be the developer?

Offline KJP

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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #623 on: December 11, 2006, 07:53:51 PM »
The Shaia family hasn't sold it yet, but is negotiating to sell it -- with conditions. Since negotiations are continuing, I've resisted writing an article about it, and I don't have all the details yet. But after a phone conversation today with someone who is very close to the situation, I can tell you that Lighthouse Landing is not dead. Furthermore, the placement of one, possibly two office buildings may be different than what's being discussed above. The one is likely to be inside the Waterfront Line's hairpin curve. The other one I'm not sure about, but it sounds like it would be closer to West 9th Street on land that Wolstein doesn't yet own.

Now you know as much as I do about this, so you can see why I'm not ready to write anything about this yet.

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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #624 on: December 11, 2006, 09:50:40 PM »
From renderings shown previously, it looks like the office tower will be marooned in the curve of the Waterfront Line in sort of Rockside Road configuration.  It's obviously not set in stone, but it would be a huge missed opportunity to integrate a large piece of office space into the new urban fabric.  I don't really trust Wolstein for some reason (doing suburban strip malls for decades may have something to do with it).
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Offline KJP

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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #625 on: December 12, 2006, 09:23:55 AM »
That's one office building...
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Offline Florida Guy

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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #626 on: December 17, 2006, 10:01:19 AM »
http://www.cleveland.com/cuyahoga/plaindealer/index.ssf?/base/cuyahoga/1166348507101340.xml&coll=2

Sunday, December 17, 2006
Tom Breckenridge
Plain Dealer Reporter
Developer Scott Wolstein hopes to start razing buildings next month in pursuit of his $230 million project on the Flats east bank.
« Last Edit: September 08, 2009, 01:45:24 PM by Florida Guy »

Offline jamiec

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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #627 on: December 17, 2006, 02:05:57 PM »
Quote
Second, I agree that we demolish way too much, and there are a couple of buildings at Wolstein's site that are worth saving. But the ones in question here are mostly godawful. They are wooden shacks built right on the riverbank, and they aren't historic. They're just sleazy, vacant bars.

I agree with blinker (above quote).

Online w28th

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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #628 on: December 17, 2006, 03:54:11 PM »
The structures are basically suburban restaurant buildings that were built next to the river in the early 1980's.
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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #629 on: December 17, 2006, 04:25:33 PM »
For visual reference - the only buildings really worth mentioning are two older brick structures:

Almost dead center, below the Main Avenue Bridge:


And a closer look. Granted they're old but quite frankly they're not terribly remarkable for being old brick warehouse buildings. I'm usually on the side of preservation/re-use, but in this case I don't think there would be any significant loss. As blinker12 and w28th have pointed out, the vast majority of the buildings in question are dumpy 80s shacks:



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