Author Topic: Cleveland: Flats East Bank  (Read 1591815 times)

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Offline 3231

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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #560 on: September 07, 2006, 03:55:49 PM »
^I am still not sure where personal attacks have a place in this discussion.

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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #561 on: September 07, 2006, 04:26:30 PM »
^
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Offline jamiec

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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #562 on: September 07, 2006, 05:03:18 PM »
This whole thing is bizarre! Maybe Henry Gomez will enlighten us tomorrow.

All I know is, if the Flats stay crappy because a bunch of people can't work together, I'm going to be angry!

Offline mrnyc

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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #563 on: September 07, 2006, 05:40:35 PM »
the fairmount link says they are breaking ground in fall, 2006. lawsuit or no lawsuit with the stragglers, does wolstein control enough property yet for that to happen? it would be nice if he could fastrack and get some of it up and going. when they steamroller it usually then the opposition falls away.
« Last Edit: September 07, 2006, 05:41:58 PM by mrnyc »
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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #564 on: September 07, 2006, 06:15:15 PM »
If I recall the judge in the Roether common pleas case denied a temporary restraining order when the case was first filed.  I tried to check the docket but could not find the case (just the 1997 tort matter).  Her name may be mis-spelled somewhere.  Without having read the pleadings, I imagine she has filed what's known as a "taxpayer's action" which has a statutory basis.  In my experience the "independent" taxpayer usually has a connection to a party (in this case a property owner) and their attorney fees are usually paid for by the real party in interest.  Looks like the property owners are attempting to fight this on as many fronts as possible.

In Probate Court, a motion to consolidate the various eminent domain suits is set for hearing on September 27.

I don't believe Wolstein can proceed without many of the parcels at issue.  If I recall correctly a few of them are in heart of the development.

Offline CtownD

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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #565 on: September 07, 2006, 07:01:13 PM »
I'll apologize for the non-sequitur in advance, but did Fairmount Properties either merge or acquire Heartland Developers?  After browsing through their website I noticed that all of Heartland's properties (Sussex Courts, South Park Row, Jay Hotel, and Avalon Station) are listed on Fairmount's website.  Sorry if this was posted elsewhere and I simply overlooked it, but it was just something that caught my attention.

Offline mrnyc

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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #566 on: September 08, 2006, 10:58:50 AM »
thanks for the explanation htsguy.
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Offline musky

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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #567 on: September 25, 2006, 08:16:07 AM »
I heard on WCPN that the court hearings will start today.
The reporter stated that the judge is giving the both sides 3 days each to make their case.
So I'm thinking we will hear something withinthe next two weeks.
But what do I know?

Offline musky

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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #568 on: September 25, 2006, 04:01:10 PM »
Judge hears eminent domain arguments


2:56 p.m.

Cuyahoga County Probate Court Judge John E. Corrigan heard arguments Monday on a request to consolidate 14 lawsuits involving eminent domain in Cleveland’s Flats said he expects to make a decision soon.

The Cleveland-Cuyahoga County Port Authority filed the cases in May and June after property owners refused to sell to make way for developer Scott Wolstein’s redevelopment plans for the area.

More at cleveland.com http://www.cleveland.com
« Last Edit: September 11, 2009, 11:08:22 AM by MayDay »

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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #569 on: September 25, 2006, 07:34:31 PM »
The  hearing only relates to a motion to consolidate all the separate eminent domain actions into one proceeding.  It is more procedural than substantive, although I imagine some substantive issues will come into play. The court's eventual ruling on the motion  (maybe in a few weeks...I believe after the hearing the judge will allow the parties time to submit supplemental briefs which will take additional time) will not resolve the cases.  It is going to be some time until the merits of the actions (or perhaps a single action if the motion to consolidate is granted) will be addressed.

Offline musky

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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #570 on: September 27, 2006, 12:20:38 PM »
Quote
Consolidating the Eminent Domain Cases

Aired September 26, 2006

A judge is considering whether to consolidate 14 cases challenging the Cleveland-Cuyahoga County Port Authority's right to acquire property in the East Flats through eminent domain. The Port Authority plans to sell the land to developer Scott Wolstein. ideastream's Lisa Ann Pinkerton has more.

Listen to the MP3: http://www.wcpn.org/mp3/2006/0926edCon.mp3

Lawyers for the Port Authority argued Monday that the 14 cases are so similar in their grievances and evidence that they should all be tried together. Lead Attorney for the Port Authority Steve Kaufman says this would prevent long delays leading up to the trial. In response, the lawyers for the 14 property owners argued each of their cases is unique and that trying them together would violate property owners rights. They did offer to shave time off the pre-trial process by consolidating the cases for discovery purposes only.

The two sides differ on the relevance of a recent Ohio Supreme Court decision that barred a Cincinnati suburb from using eminent domain to obtain property for economic development. Lawyers for the Port Authority argue it has no relevance in this case. The landowners say that ruling would apply.

Aides to Judge John Corrigan say he'll decide on whether to consolidate the cases within a week or two.

Lisa Ann Pinkerton, 90.3.

Offline musky

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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #571 on: October 05, 2006, 10:23:03 PM »
I just heard on the news tonight (wkyc) the judge ruled all of the cases could be heard at one time instead of eight separate cases. Not sure if that will be bad or good, but my gut tells me it is good

Offline 3231

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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #572 on: October 06, 2006, 08:09:15 AM »
Also, the judge is fast-tracking the discovery phase. 

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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #573 on: October 06, 2006, 08:41:20 AM »
According to the PD discovery is to be completed by November 24 with a trial now slated to start in December.  Now that the judge has ordered all eight cases consolidated (as requested by the Port Authority and opposed by the property owners) it will be interesting to see if any of the remaining owners settle between now and trial.  I doubt that consolidation will trigger settlement but maybe information that comes out during the discovery phase (although I cannot imagine what that might be) might encourage at least a couple of owners to relent.  It appears however that a most of the owners have really dug in their heels and a trial is in the cards.  Appeals are likely too.  This could drag on for quite some time.

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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #574 on: October 06, 2006, 03:04:19 PM »
But probably not as long as it would be if they were held separate.

What exactly is the discovery phase?

Offline 3231

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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #575 on: October 06, 2006, 03:13:20 PM »
Discovery is a phase before a trial where each party can ask questions of each other.  The idea is to allow each party to be as well-prepared for trial as possible. You have to hand over all the evidence that you plan to give at trial. You also forward a list of questions that the other party is supposed to answer to the best of their knowledge. The only thing that is sacred is the attorney-work product (attorneys thoughts on conclusions concerning the evidence). Court is not like the movies with all the surprise witnesses and shocking evidence (ie My Cousin Vinny).  
« Last Edit: October 08, 2006, 09:29:35 AM by wimwar »

Offline KJP

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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #576 on: October 08, 2006, 08:04:14 AM »
If you want to follow the progress of the case(s), go to http://probate.cuyahogacounty.us/pa/pa.urd/PAMW6500 , click on each case then click on dockets.
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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #577 on: October 08, 2006, 01:23:32 PM »
Discovery also can have the effect of speeding up or even circumventing trial, in some instances.  It's kind of like high stakes poker... The game is: how much evidence can we get, from the other guys, on the record so as to hone our strategy... if, say, you can get some key (pro) documentary evidence in through requests for docs along with interrogatories, then build on them through witness depositions (much more flexible and free-wheeling than in-court testimony) based on what is or isn't in those docs, you can keep that piece of evidence out of trial; or you can settle (or convince your opponent to do so) based on what's gleaned in discovery.  Sometimes you don't want to lay down too much of your hand, strategy-wise... sometimes you do, in hopes they may feel the pressure (at least from their client) to settle and, hence, free up the docket ....  In any event, a good judge wants to stay on top of things to see whether or not he feels either you or the other guy is wasting his time and (taxpayer) money by dragging a full case to trial... That's why this judge moved to consolidate -- a trial/court economy thing where all the issues could be killed with one stone.
« Last Edit: October 08, 2006, 01:28:58 PM by clvlndr »

Offline mrnyc

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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #578 on: October 09, 2006, 12:01:08 PM »
oh boy here we go. its good they are consolidated, this will speed things up in court. the bluff has been called and i'd bet at least a few owners fold before a trial.

i think evidence of the property owners under-use, mis-use and non-use for decades will win the case in the end, but we'll see you never know. i just wonder how far along west bank/stonebridge, the avenue and even stark's projects will be before wolstein ever gets it going?

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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #579 on: October 09, 2006, 06:47:41 PM »
I'm hoping if the ruling against the adversaries is decisive, they'll give up the ghost facing long odds and legal fees for any appeal.  Plus, at some point, with all the progress, I'm gambling that these guys are not going to want to bear the public shame as being greedy obstructionists (of course, since they've gone this far, these guys are w/o shame anyway).

Offline musky

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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #580 on: October 09, 2006, 10:26:14 PM »
What about the hustler club? Are they not continuing with their construction of the in and outside?
I bet they plan on putting up a fight.


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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #581 on: October 09, 2006, 11:20:06 PM »
While I am not an expert on eminent domain cases, many of the factors mentioned above really don't have much relevance in the actual proceeding.  There are generally two primary issues, one:  should there be a "governmental taking" of private property (and with the recent Ohio Supreme Court decision this is much more complex than in the past....although in my opinion it clearly is not a bar to a taking as the properly owners attorneys are clearly asserting) and two: if a taking is in order, what is the value of the property (experts are used to establish value and it can become pretty complex).

Offline Mov2Ohio

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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #582 on: October 12, 2006, 05:28:38 PM »
The Cleveland-Cuyahoga County Port Authority has reached a tentative deal with one of the holdouts standing in the way of Scott Wolstein's $230 million plan to redevelop the east bank of the Flats.

In a statement released this afternoon, the Port said the Shaia family, which owns parking lot property at West 10th Street and Main Avenue, has agreed in principle to sell the site. The deal would give Wolstein 73% of the land the developer and the port say is needed to create a mixed-use neighborhood with housing, retail and office space.

More at
http://www.cleveland.com/weblogs/business/index.ssf?/mtlogs/cleve_business/archives/2006_10.html#194262
« Last Edit: September 11, 2009, 11:01:37 AM by MayDay »
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Offline MyTwoSense

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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #583 on: October 12, 2006, 05:35:21 PM »
I wonder if the Shaia family, negotiated behind doors to still build their project, by adding/incorporating it into the wolstein project?  Or did it just go down in flames?
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Offline CornerCurve

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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #584 on: October 12, 2006, 06:45:43 PM »
from cleveland.com
   
Parking lot tentatively sold to Flats developer
7 p.m.

Another property owner has reached a tentative sales agreement to make way for Scott Wolstein’s plans to redevelop the east bank of the Flats.

- Sarah Hollander
« Last Edit: September 07, 2009, 12:45:03 PM by CornerCurve »

Offline Punch

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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #585 on: October 12, 2006, 08:37:09 PM »
KJP, or anyone in the know, do you think there is some networking going on between Stark and Wolstien and Zaremba?  It just seems like a lot of retail is being proposed for downtown and I wonder if that causes competition for recognizable retailers.

Speaking of all of the new retail, has anyone heard anything from Forest City in the past 10 years?
« Last Edit: October 12, 2006, 08:38:05 PM by punch »
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Offline the pope

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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #586 on: October 13, 2006, 07:48:19 AM »
^the dollar store wasn't good enough for you?

Offline Map Boy

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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #587 on: October 13, 2006, 08:06:49 AM »
In regard to coordinating retail developments, I'd leave Zaremba out of the conversation.  The Avenue District is a different neighborhood and will be shooting for neighborhood retail, not big anchors like Wolstein & Stark.  Although, if Borders said they wanted to open a store over there, I get the feeling that Zaremba wouldn't push 'em away!  And yes, I hope they're communicating, but in the end, what retailers will see is that there are several major Downtown developments that they can choose to be a part of.  The number of housing units being built will encourage them to choose one, where they may not have even been considering Downtown Cleveland previously. 

This Shaia news is surprising.  I figured they had the best shot in the trial.  And there's was the only one that I really had any mixed feelings about.  I hope they worked something out too, because I would hate to see Wolstein's vision of a parking lot there.  Again, the question of why the development agreement must be set in stone with matters like this is one I don't understand.


Offline 8ShadesofGray

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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #588 on: October 13, 2006, 08:19:20 AM »
^ I wouldn't be surprised if they offered a much higher bid to Shaia, recognizing that he was probably the most high-profile owners and that, with his semi-salient development plan, he would be most able among them to effectively challenge claims of blight.
« Last Edit: October 13, 2006, 08:19:42 AM by 8ShadesofGray »

Offline Map Boy

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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #589 on: October 13, 2006, 08:26:14 AM »
Good point Shades.  We shall see!

Offline Punch

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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #590 on: October 13, 2006, 01:07:12 PM »
^the dollar store wasn't good enough for you?

maybe for my wedding day, otherwise, I tend to shop at the 33 cent store
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Offline From Heights to Harlem

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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #591 on: October 21, 2006, 07:22:41 PM »
This is great.  Too much parking, why doesn't someone hype up the Rapid?
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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #592 on: October 21, 2006, 11:10:51 PM »
Quote
maybe for my wedding day, otherwise, I tend to shop at the 33 cent store

Just don't buy the canned fish from Mexico
Cul de sac is just another word for Dead End.

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Offline smackem81

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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #593 on: October 22, 2006, 05:57:33 PM »
^ It was plankton, and it was expired according to the mexican food council.
« Last Edit: October 22, 2006, 05:58:27 PM by smackem81 »

Offline musky

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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #594 on: October 23, 2006, 11:00:09 AM »
This is semi-related as it has to do with Wolstein and might impact the Flats project:
From Crain's:

Quote
DDR plans to acquire 307 centers in $6B deal

By STAN BULLARD

11:35 am, October 23, 2006

Developers Diversified Realty Corp. (NYSE: DDR) plans to hike the size of its shopping center portfolio 37% with the proposed acquisition of Inland Retail Real Estate Trust Inc. of Oak Brook, Ill., in a $6.2 billion transaction.

Beachwood-based Developers Diversified intends to buy all of Inland’s shares for $14 each in the transaction and to assume $2.3 billion in debt, which it expects to repay as it closes the deal.

 More at crainscleveland.com http://www.crainscleveland.com
« Last Edit: September 11, 2009, 11:02:05 AM by MayDay »

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