Author Topic: Cleveland: Flats East Bank  (Read 1555246 times)

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Offline Punch

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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #35 on: March 11, 2005, 02:23:29 PM »
New port official looks to revitalize region
Thursday, March 10, 2005
Sarah Hollander
Plain Dealer Reporter
Mayor Jane Campbell's former chief of staff begins a new job next week with a mission of expanding the Cleveland-Cuyahoga County Port Authority's economic development role.

Deb Janik starts Monday as the port's vice president of regional development. She will work directly with the city, the county, suburbs, local banks, developers, the Cuyahoga County Mayors and City Managers Association and neighborhood and civic groups, such as Team NEO and the Greater Cleveland Partnership.

More at cleveland.com http://www.cleveland.com
« Last Edit: September 11, 2009, 11:32:41 AM by MayDay »
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Offline 3231

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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #36 on: March 11, 2005, 02:42:01 PM »
I saw that article.  I wonder how long it will take until there is word on the timeline for the project.  The Warehouse District needs more than just bars to survive as a viable neighborhood. I hope that there will be something that keeps the place vivrant during the other hours of the day (as a bookstore, grocery store, cinema all could do) We all saw how the Flats sunk quickly in the late 90s when it was such a mono-culture. 

I hope that the number of units ends up being higher that 350.  We need more critical mass.

Offline MayDay

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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #37 on: March 11, 2005, 03:13:32 PM »
The thing is - the Warehouse District *does* offer more than bars. Sure, there are plenty of them but the majority of market-rate housing downtown is right there.The Flats never really had much of a residential element.

What I'm liking is that there are more and more casual eateries opening around the Warehouse District instead of "special occasion" spots. You have Nauti Mermaid on West 6th, Captain Franks on St. Clair at West Third, and Flo Cafe on West 6th at Lakeside. That tells me there's a demand for everyday places to eat which tells me the area's investment in residential units is paying off. I think Constantino's is good enough to tide residents over until there's truly enough critical mass for a full-size grocer.
« Last Edit: March 11, 2005, 03:14:47 PM by MayDay »

Offline 3231

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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #38 on: March 11, 2005, 03:28:12 PM »
I was in the Warehouse District last weekend for the first time in years.  I saw Ron Harper and a bunch of NBA-looking people eating at a restaurant on the corner of W.6th and St. Claire. 

Offline MayDay

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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #39 on: March 11, 2005, 03:40:41 PM »
That would have been either XO, Metropolitan Cafe, or the Blue Point Grille. Those are a few of the "special occasion" joints, especially XO and Blue Point.
« Last Edit: March 11, 2005, 03:42:36 PM by MayDay »

Offline 3231

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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #40 on: March 11, 2005, 04:36:47 PM »
Blue Pointe. 

Offline Punch

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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #41 on: March 11, 2005, 04:56:45 PM »
When I first heard about this development, I thought it was just another Wolstein big idea for the flats (remember putting a roof over old river road?) but it actually sounds like it might happen.

Can you imagine a lazy day, sitting on a porch with a cup of coffee watching one of those huge barges slowly navigating the river.  I would love to live there.
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Offline 3231

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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #42 on: March 11, 2005, 05:25:44 PM »
I think that the roof idea was actually put out there by Corna.  He is one of the guys from Stonebridge. Corna also wanted to line condos along the street that runs parallel to the CSX tracks and ends at the old Fagans.  I always wondered how he would get control of the land. 

I think that this plan has a chance.  The state has already given 3 million to the project. I doubt that they would throw money at something that is not going to happen.  I just hope that the density it great enough.  I think that the bookstore idea is grand.  Borders did wonders for a neighborhood next to Vanderbilt in Nashville.  I would think that the 20-30 yr educated crowd in the Warehouse District area would create some steady business for the bookstore, and provide for some alternative entertainment.  Diversity is important for the area's success.

Offline Map Boy

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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #43 on: March 13, 2005, 04:28:29 PM »
I just spent a few days in Cleveland and one of my persistent impressions of the city remains the same...we have a city with many great neighborhoods that are on the verge of becoming complete, yet are still functioning independently of each other.  These places...Tremont, Ohio City, Detroit Shoreway, the Flats, Warehouse District, Gateway, CSU, Midtown, etc...have the potential to grow together to form one of the most exciting, complete, vibrant collections of inner-city neighborhoods in the country.

On that note, I'm glad to hear about the new position at the Port Authority...especially with someone who has so much experience with City Hall and Neighborhood Progress Inc.  I think we've all shared the sentiment that the "powers that be" in Cleveland are often working against each other.  Having someone in this role with the necessary connections and relationship coming in will certaintly expedite the development process.  I'm very optimistic about the project we're talking about here and with the Port Authority working as another group that wants to make this a reality, we've got a much greater chance of seeing it happen. 

Offline Punch

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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #44 on: March 13, 2005, 06:13:12 PM »
One huge piece of the puzzle is still owned and neglected by FCE, that is the Scranton Penninsula.  That would definitely connect Tremont to downtown and to duck island, which would spill over to Ohio City.
Maybe one day.
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Offline Map Boy

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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #45 on: March 13, 2005, 08:05:11 PM »
a boy can dream, can't he?

I was pleased to find how easy it was to get from Tremont to Ohio City and Downtown on RTA buses.  When bike weather returns...piece o' cake!

Offline 3231

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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #46 on: March 19, 2005, 12:58:05 AM »
From the sounds of this project (cinema, large bookstore, grocery store, etc), it seems that it would be more successful if placed on Forest City's large surface lot on West 6th.  From that location, it would get much more foot traffic from downtown office workers.  It would bridge the office district and the WHD.  If it is stuck down the hill in the Flats, it is too isolated.  If Wolstein is interested in doing in the Flats, why isn't Forest City interested in doing something similar in the WHD?  Wolstein's project would preclude any similar retail project from being attempted on FC's land for the foreseeable future.  FC must seriously be sour on Cleveland. 

That said, I still think that Wolstein needs more than 300 housing units in the Flats, especially since District Park looks dead.

Offline Map Boy

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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #47 on: March 19, 2005, 03:08:03 PM »
What's this Forest City site in the WHD?

I agree, though, that the bookstore/cinema could be too isolated in the Flats.  That's for right now, though.  I would hope that somewhere down the road, in the not-too-distant future, we'll be able to support Tower City, a development of major retail/entertainment on this site in the Flats and another one over by Playhouse Square.  I could see something big like a movie theater/bookstore sprouting up on 14th and Euclid once the Euclid Corridor is completed.  They could capture the residential and hotel population over on that end of Downtown, especially with new E.12th Street projects and CSU residential growth.  The existing population in the WHD and new housing in the Flats (east and west) could support the one we're talking about in this thread, and the commuters from the suburbs would still support Tower City. 

This seems like dreaming right now, but come on, we should be able to support multiple bookstores and theaters in our Downtown!  And I for one know that I would be much more inclined to live down there if there were more sprouting up...chicken and egg, I guess.
« Last Edit: March 19, 2005, 03:09:09 PM by Mister Good Day »

Offline 3231

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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #48 on: March 19, 2005, 08:39:54 PM »
Forest City controls the mamoth parking lot that stretches from West 3rd to West 6th, bordered by St. Claire and Superior Avenue.  I might be wrong, but I am pretty sure that they control that land.  It was where their first attempt at a convention center site was before they realized it was not a good place, and then they retreated back to the Tower City site.
« Last Edit: March 19, 2005, 08:45:04 PM by wimwar »

Offline Map Boy

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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #49 on: March 19, 2005, 10:43:47 PM »
I tried to check it all out on the city's GIS pages, but I couldn't figure it out.  There seem to be quite a few different owners.  However, I suppose Forest City could just have all sorts of subsidiaries that are listed as owners, but in reality, they control the whole thing.  Whatever, it needs to be developed already!

Offline 3231

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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #50 on: April 05, 2005, 10:42:10 AM »
Here's another article on the project.  Kind of a long read that is short on details..

A Second Chance
Learning from past mistakes, developers and the city of Cleveland are working to revive the Flats.

Sara Lepro
lepro@inside-business.com 
Rustom Khouri bought his first piece of property in the Flats in 1986. He was one of many developers at the forefront of revitalizing the historically industrial site into an entertainment district.

"We believed it would have a national draw," says Khouri, president and CEO of Carnegie Management Group, a Westlake-based commercial real estate development company that owns property on the East Bank. "For a long time, that was the case."

During its heyday of the 1980s and 1990s, the Flats pulsated with bars, nightclubs and restaurants dotting both banks of the Cuyahoga River.

More at www.inside-business.com 
« Last Edit: September 11, 2009, 11:33:28 AM by MayDay »

Offline clvlndr

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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #51 on: April 06, 2005, 12:27:42 AM »
This is the single, key sentence in the whole article... leads me to believe this one, at least partially, might get done:

The city has agreed to contribute between $15 million and $20 million to the project over several years, and the state has allotted $3 million of its 2005 capital budget toward the project.




Offline nsc

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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #52 on: April 06, 2005, 08:01:43 AM »
To make a long story short, is this going to hapen or not?

Offline 3231

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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #53 on: April 06, 2005, 11:25:14 AM »
The tone has always seemed to be that it will get down.  The city has agreed to fund it and the state has already given money.  I wouldn't think that they would give cash to something that they  doubted would happen.  I wish that we would hear a timeframe for this project. 

Offline nsc

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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #54 on: April 06, 2005, 03:14:26 PM »
What is the project.  Is there a specific architect involved, is there a site plan, are there tenents?  For a project that has already received funding, and as much as it has, I would have expected to see something by now.

Offline 3231

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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #55 on: April 06, 2005, 03:26:09 PM »
I would assume that once some anchor tenants have signed on that we would hear some names.  The fact that we haven't heard anything must mean that negotiations are ongoing.  Of course the city and state money must be contingent on it happening.  In order to show the potential tenants that it will happen, I am sure that the goverment must demonstrate first that they will put up the cash.

All the articles seem optimistic, or, as if its a foregone conclusion that the project will happen.  I'll believe it when I see it.  That said, I do have my hopes up.

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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #56 on: April 06, 2005, 06:17:02 PM »
This isn't a specific project rendering, but a slide from the Lakefront Plan that shows something like what might happen here.  Look to the far right of the picture, the buildings grouped around a grass oval.

Offline Map Boy

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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #57 on: April 06, 2005, 09:37:27 PM »
The article is great...very optimistic...and I like to hear that kind of talk!  It's refreshing!  This has been one of the most talked about projects that I can think of over the past year or so that would actually MAKE SENSE.  Screw the convention center...this is the stuff that makes cities livable.  Real neighborhoods that connect to other real neighborhoods.

I'm also glad to read that Stonebridge is being hailed as a success and a sign of things to come.  Partnerships and cohesive vision are invaluable and if the public and private sides of things continue to work together like this, then we might see more creative, unique places like the Superior Viaduct come into the picture.

Offline 3231

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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #58 on: April 06, 2005, 09:47:59 PM »
MGD,

Corna, one of the two partners on Stonebridge project, is the dad of a kid who went to wildcat high during my years.  It sounds great that there is such open dialogue amongst the west siders.  Hopefully, they will continue building residential on that side of the river. 

Offline nsc

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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #59 on: April 07, 2005, 09:28:51 AM »
I could just see the city shutting this down because the plan interferes with shifting Rt 2. 

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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #60 on: April 07, 2005, 02:55:47 PM »
I don't think that the bridge portion of Rt. 2 is shifting. 

Offline 3231

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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #61 on: April 07, 2005, 04:08:11 PM »
Shifting the bridge would make the projection extremely expensive, am I wrong? 

Where will Route 2 begin to change its path through downtown?  Will it stil be elevated through the WHD?

Offline KJP

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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #62 on: April 07, 2005, 05:30:33 PM »
I don't think that part of the project has been decided yet. One proposal is to have the lanes come down off the Cuyahoga Valley bridge to the level of city streets, before crossing West 3rd, and then angle its way over the tracks to the current alignment east of Browns Stadium. Another is to leave it just the way it is through the Warehouse District. I don't care for that. There may be more options using some other combinations but I'm not aware of what they might be.

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Offline 3231

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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #63 on: April 07, 2005, 05:34:02 PM »
I agree with you, KJP.  It is imposing to look up and see a highway bridge blocking the view of the port and the lake from Wests 6th and 9th.  I hope they lower it.  As I am engineerically-challenged, I don't understand how it would be done.

Offline Ewoops

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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #64 on: April 07, 2005, 09:52:05 PM »
I hope the city gets some input in what happens with the redevelopment of the Flats.  It is, in my opinion, Cleveland's most unique asset, and the city needs to do the best job it can to help it fulfill its potential.  Stonebridge, while gorgeous on the outside, seemed to fall short (at least to me) when I actually took a look at an apartment there.  It was just too sterile.  The Flats needs to keep its funky feel, and there are so many great buildings down there, a mix of new buildings and redeveloped ones would really be amazing. 

Does anyone else feel like the parking lot bridging the Warehouse District and Public Square is a better spot for the type of development being proposed for the Flats? Something similar to Block E in Minneapolis, if anyone is familiar?   It also seems like the Flats needs more residential development than the current plan offers, as well as more hotels. 

It is so close to the Rapid, which can take businessmen/women to Public Square and the north end of the financial district, that it seems a no-brainer for a number of small, cool hotels mixed in with a ton of housing (similar to South Beach, but with a Cleveland flavor, maybe we could get more marina slips at the north end of the flats and near Whiskey Island to compensate for the fact that there's not a beautiful beach)  With this kind of traffic, the retail (not to mention dining and nightlife options) aspect would take care of itself.

However, I don't want to look a gift horse in the mouth.  If they are going to get something down there started, I am all for it.  I just hope that the infrastructure being put in place for this development will be able to accomodate future growth as well.

Offline 3231

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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #65 on: April 07, 2005, 11:19:37 PM »
Ewoops,

I agree with you. I fear that this project has too much retail and commercial located in an area that is too far from Public Square.  The giant parking lot would be a much better location.  It would draw the office crowd and the residential crowd.  I don't see folks wanting to walk down into and out of the Flats just to patronize the grocer and bookstore.  We'll see. I'll take the project anyday, but I think that it is not optimally located.  If there was more residential going into the Flats, I would feel better. But, I don't think that 300+ is enough for that area.

Offline nsc

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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #66 on: April 08, 2005, 06:54:33 AM »
I agree with you wimwar.  They will need a ton of residential in the Flats to support what they have proposed.  The people in the WHD are getting the retail they need right now for their everyday needs.  Therefore, I don't see the WHD residents walking down the hill to support the proposed retail in the Flats.  I think it will turn into a situation we had 5 to 10 years ago.  Both districts thriving and one hanging on in the long run.  Back to my point however, if they do incorporate enough residential in the Flats project and slightly downsize the commercial, we could see two thriving districts for years to come that feed off of eachother.

Offline Map Boy

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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #67 on: April 08, 2005, 09:35:57 AM »
ok, first on the parking lots between public square and the whd, we all know those have issues of their own with owners sitting on them until who knows when.  And I think we all agree that the Flats are a district unique to Cleveland and can really become our signature residential quarter in the downtown area.  So, building housing is a key element to this, but what's keeping people away right now is a critical shortage of amenities.  if this project can push the amenities quotient up OVER what the district supports right now, then the residential development will follow because the demand for housing will push it! 

Ewoops, I like the mention of a boutique hotel down there as well.  If this is going to be a signature residential quarter, a boutique hotel will fit in very well.  And I know there are lots of people who look for this type of option first when they're visiting a city for pleasure or for business...they want a more unique, creative space that will put them right in the center of a real neighborhood, not just in the CBD.  love it!
« Last Edit: April 08, 2005, 09:36:28 AM by Mister Good Day »

Online X

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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #68 on: April 08, 2005, 06:18:36 PM »
A boutique hotel or even a hostel would be a cool addition to the flats.  I like the idea floated (pun intended) awhile back of using the Mather as a hostel.  That would go over extra well if the Mather were moored somewhere in the Flats.  Isn't there a slip that isn't used any more behind Nautica?  Or is it still in use?

Unfortunately, I don't think that the Flats is the place for the sort of development that has been proposed.  Even with more residential development down there to give it a neighborhood base, it doesn't have good enough access for the non-neighborhood residents that the sorts of retail they are proposing will require to be successful.  And I don't think that the retail they are proposing is unique enough to bring people in from more easily accessed alternatives.  I'd much rather see a bookstore or theatre go along Euclid somewhere.  Of course, its not my project, my land, my money.  Whatever.

BTW, this is the same developer who is building a strip mall with loading docks that have some of the nicest views in Northeast Ohio.  Makes me wonder about there decision making process.

Offline Punch

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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #69 on: April 09, 2005, 11:44:09 AM »
The flats still has the general reputation of an entertainment district so that should draw people.  The WHD is literally spilling over into the flats, especially if District Park comes back online.  (By the way, steel prices are starting to ebb down)
I think there will be enough people, and this may be a great shot in the arm for people to take another look at opening restaurants in the flats.
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