Author Topic: Cleveland: Flats East Bank  (Read 1555533 times)

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Offline KJP

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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #175 on: June 15, 2005, 08:23:49 PM »
Spencer is the name on the marquee for the no-neck crowd sitting in the shadowy back room, if you follow me. For people of his cadre, it is more desireable to be feared than to be loved. The guy who owns some of the bars across the street is cut from the same cloth, er, silk shirts. This isn't going to be easy for Scott W.

Remember Ed Stinn Chevrolet in Fairview Park? That place sat empty for a decade because ol' Ed had debts to people who don't refinance unless your kneecaps are part of the deal.

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Offline blinker12

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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #176 on: June 15, 2005, 11:48:17 PM »
A retired Cleveland firefighter, Mr. Spencer has moved to Naples, Fla., where he works on real estate investments. If his situation were different, he said, he would have liked to have been "a part of the redevelopment of the Flats."

Is that supposed to redeem him? That if he hadn't jumped ship and moved to Florida he would have done something more responsible??? What a load of crap.

Offline zaceman

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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #177 on: June 15, 2005, 11:49:24 PM »
wow... its almost comical

Offline Icecream

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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #178 on: June 22, 2005, 04:52:41 PM »
It is comical... read the writing on the wall... Wolstein's project isn't real.  It was released for political reasons.

Offline X

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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #179 on: June 22, 2005, 05:50:31 PM »
Well I don't know about that. Wolstein does own a good chunk of the land down there, and site control is the most difficult thing about getting a development started.  That's not to say there aren't still issues to work out, but they've done a good chunk of the hard work already, and they have a good track record of getting things done.  This is just an example of some shysters getting in just ahead of what they think is going to be a good payday for them.  They can make trouble, but ultimately, they probably won't be enough to stop the project from going forward.

Offline 3231

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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #180 on: June 22, 2005, 06:23:31 PM »
It is comical... read the writing on the wall... Wolstein's project isn't real. It was released for political reasons.

Ice Cream:  Boy are you a pessimist. Cleveland sure needs more of those.

 I highly doubt it was released only for political reasons.  This has been in the works for a couple of years.  You don't spend years developing the idea, hire an architect, apply and get state money, lobby the city for infrastructure funds, have an out of state partner involved, spend many days presenting the plan at a Las Vegas convention to potential commercial tenants just so a mayor of Cleveland can present a false idea to better her chances of re-election.  I can understand that timing is politically motivated, but not the entire project concept.

Offline MyTwoSense

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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #181 on: June 22, 2005, 07:10:30 PM »
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Ice Cream: Boy are you a pessimist. Cleveland sure needs more of those.

You tell him Wimwar!

A city is only as great as the people who reside in it. Cleveland is finally maturing and starting step out of the shadows of out coastal brethren.

We need people who give CONSTRUCTIVE criticism, get involved socially and politically and make a difference.
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Offline MayDay

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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #182 on: June 23, 2005, 08:24:26 AM »
I have to agree with wimwar - I have no doubt in my mind that the timing has political motivations. However, the legwork and effort that's gone into marshalling the proposals, financing, etc. - there's too much there to simply be a whim.

Offline Icecream

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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #183 on: June 23, 2005, 03:29:25 PM »
When you do own that much land you often spend significant amounts of money seeing what will work.  When in a public company it is practically required. But the plan has no specifics.  So much is still missing from it.  Normally a bit more detail is in order before you go and ask for public money.  He has neither land control nor the normal partners.  Then again...

If Wolstein can make it work I think it will be just what Cleveland needs.  I want it to work.  I want Mr. Wolstein to make gobs and gobs of money on the project so that other companies put their sweat and money into Cleveland.  I just don't think it looks like a real project at this stage.  Then again... Mr. Wolstein has made millions of dollars in real estate development, and I have not.

Offline StrangeBrew

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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #184 on: June 23, 2005, 04:09:02 PM »
The East Bank project is very real.  Worry not about things like Spenser and a strip club.  The Supreme Court decision today allows for Cities like Cleveland, who view buildings or properties, such as our strip club here, that are in the way of Economic Development, to be taken through eminent domain, w/o a clear "public" purpose or blight designation.  In otherwords, for "just compensation", Cleveland can step in when the time is right and take the land then turn it over to Wolstein. 

Offline 3231

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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #185 on: June 23, 2005, 04:32:49 PM »
I need to read the opinion, but this is a huge win for cities and developers.

Offline Icecream

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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #186 on: June 23, 2005, 04:44:37 PM »
Oh, they can take the land, it just might be a fight.  Getting the property will add to the cost of the project.

People wanted constructive criticism -- Lets look at what we know.

The project has gone from $170 million to $225 million in just a short time.  It does not sound like they nailed down their numbers.  A 32% increase in such a short time is troublesome.  Where will it stop?

But lets just look at the quick numbers where they stand now:

We have been told  that there is 250,000 feet of retail and entertainment.  Good square footage retail in town is about $25 a foot.  That can be expected to generate roughly $6,250,000.00.  On a 10% capitalization that means that the retail is worth about $62,500,00.00.  That makes the rest of the project $162,500,000.00.  That means that the residential at 330 units starts at roughly $500,000.00 each before any profit is made.  Stonebridge is the best comperable even though the units are much more reasonably priced.  Stonebridge's units have an absorption rate of roughly 3.5 units a month.  That means that the 330 units to be built will take almost 8 years before they are all sold.  That is a painfully long time because a lot of the money is going to have to be fronted before any profit is made.  Of course this is making things very simple.  There are a thousand other items, but it does show how this project is very bad without mega tax dollars.

This is a very tough project.  If Clevelanders want it to work, we are going to have to dig in our collective tax pockets to make it work.  Without lots of public help, Wolstein would be crazy to do the project.  A they are now, I do not think that the numbers work. 

This is a pioneer project.  I don' t think there are any comperable numbers that Mr. Wolstein can use to judge just how his project will go.  If it makes it, I think you will see other developers use his success to justify the numbers they have in their projects.  It could really be a boon to this city.  If it is for real, then I hope he makes it.

Offline Punch

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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #187 on: June 23, 2005, 05:18:36 PM »
Well, the price tag is for the whole project including all of the infrastructure.  I think about $25M is already pledged from the gov't.

I think most of the residential units will be apartments, not condo's.  Much like how Stonebridge did it.
If there is one development company who knows retail, and who knows the East Bank of the Flats it is Wolstein's.

I think this project is a slam dunk to be made, especially after the supreme court decision.  The city, the port, the state and the developer are behind it and want to make it happen.

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Offline X

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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #188 on: June 23, 2005, 05:52:34 PM »
Besides the cost issues, I am betting Wolstein is counting on quicker absorption as the downtown condo market matures and solidifies and as the economy improves.  It's difficult to predict sales pace of a new market with little track record- one of the reasons financing can be difficult to get for inner city projects in the first place.  In these situations, the developer's rep is key.  It's even more critical than usual to have someone who's proven they can get it done, get it done right, and get it filled.

Offline 3231

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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #189 on: June 23, 2005, 05:54:47 PM »
I think its about an even split between rental and condo.

Offline buildingcincinnati

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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #190 on: July 05, 2005, 09:49:16 AM »
The AP picked up the story.  I don't know if there's any new news in it (I didn't really read it) or if anyone wants to post it, but here it is:
http://www.ohio.com/mld/ohio/news/12055790.htm?source=rss&channel=ohio_news
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Offline Qwios

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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #191 on: July 05, 2005, 11:21:38 AM »
Stupid newspapers making me subscribe what utter BS...  but anyway here it is

Posted on Tue, Jul. 05, 2005 
 


Cleveland looking to revive Flats entertainment district
Deserted east-bank buildings could be demolished in $225 million project
By Thomas J. Sheeran
Associated Press

CLEVELAND - Backers of the riverfront Flats nightclub district, a premier regional attraction until drownings and rowdiness took a toll, hope a $225 million development and a shot at casino gambling will lead to its revival.

Carolina Martin, who grew up in the 1950s and used to walk from home to watch the ship traffic along the winding Cuyahoga River, thinks the mix of condominiums, bars, restaurants and offices envisioned by Scott Wolstein will make a big difference.

More at www.ap.org
« Last Edit: September 11, 2009, 11:26:04 AM by MayDay »
so says the exurbanite...

Offline blinker12

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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #192 on: July 06, 2005, 01:55:04 AM »
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Even civic boosters such as Councilman Joe Cimperman have few good things to say about the stretch of mostly boarded-up buildings that would be demolished to make way for Wolstein's project.

Can anyone pinpoint exactly which buildings would be demolished? I'm worried because there are a lot of cool old buildings on the East Bank, and just because they're boarded up doesn't mean they should be torn down. I hate it when Cleveland tears down old buildings just because they're vacant.

Offline MayDay

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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #193 on: July 06, 2005, 08:28:21 AM »
I believe the buildings in question are those you see in the foreground:


"I'm worried because there are a lot of cool old buildings on the East Bank, and just because they're boarded up doesn't mean they should be torn down."

The problem is that the buildings are built right up to the river - and together they effectively wall off the riverfront from the public. Wolstein's project includes an impressive public walk along the riverfront, something that is sorely needed in my opinion.

"I hate it when Cleveland tears down old buildings just because they're vacant."

You are aware of how rare that is in recent years? The buildings in question may be older but they are hardly remarkable, and as I said above - they block off any public access to the riverfront.


Offline Punch

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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #194 on: July 06, 2005, 08:34:35 AM »
Yeah, but Mayday, aren't they going to also tear down the buildings on the other side of Old River Road? There are some good buildings on that side.

I still think, as a whole, it is a good project
« Last Edit: July 06, 2005, 08:35:32 AM by punch »
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Offline X

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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #195 on: July 06, 2005, 06:36:46 PM »
Everything from Main to the CSX tracks and from the River to W. 10th St. is gone.  Some of the buildings on the East side of Old River Rd. are imo quite fine examples of early Cleveland commercial architecture.  Its a very finely grained, human scale stretch of buildings.  This will be lost, unfortunately.  Maybe it is worth it, but it is still sad to me.  It would be better if some of it could be saved and incorporated into the design, but Wolstein has completely ruled out that possibility.  At least I would like to see the old Kindler's saved, even if it had to be moved somewhere.

Offline Map Boy

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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #196 on: July 06, 2005, 06:43:18 PM »
yeah, this is a huge bummer, but I'm in with the "progress creates unfortunate necessities" in this case.  I'd like to think there are scenarios for saving the facades (at least), but it appears that with the realignment of the streets and what not, this will be an impossibility. 

I'd say that on the river side of ORR, the benefits far outweight the losses...creating public access to the waterfront vs. losing historic structures...but if there were possibilities for saving structures on the north side, it would be a shame to have a vision that couldn't incorporate them into the design.

 

Offline X

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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #197 on: July 06, 2005, 06:49:58 PM »
I don't know that there are any historic buildings on the river side of the road, north of Main.  Most of those are actually relatively new.  They just look old and crappy.

Offline blinker12

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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #198 on: July 07, 2005, 04:17:20 AM »
You are aware of how rare that is in recent years [Cleveland tearing down old buildings]? The buildings in question may be older but they are hardly remarkable, and as I said above - they block off any public access to the riverfront.

I am aware that demolition of old buildings has slowed considerably in recent years, and I'm very thankful. It's just that -- as exciting as the overall redevelopment project is -- it would be sad to see a regression to the bad old days when progress equalled demolition. These old buildings are a big part of what make the Flats special.
If we were only talking about the shacks right along the river in your photo, that would be no great loss. Unfortunately, it seems like more is at stake.
« Last Edit: July 07, 2005, 04:45:53 AM by blinker12 »

Offline blinker12

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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #199 on: July 07, 2005, 04:43:33 AM »
OK, specifically, will these buildings bite the dust? (Photo taken from the Pope's excellent yay/bah photo tour)
These are the kinds of structures we should be saving IMO.

« Last Edit: July 07, 2005, 04:44:34 AM by blinker12 »

Offline X

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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #200 on: July 07, 2005, 08:38:24 PM »
Everything up to the bridge will be gone, including the street.

Offline JEJustice08

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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #201 on: September 27, 2005, 02:42:26 PM »
Update from Crain's

Wolstein's Flats plan moves forward   :clap:

By STAN BULLARD

2:56 pm, September 27, 2005

Legislation to make a reality of developer Scott Wolstein's $230 million plan to redevelop Old River Road north of Main Avenue is pending before Cleveland City Council.

Mr. Wolstein this morning briefed council's Economic and Community Development Committee on five pieces of legislation the development needs to proceed. The package includes measures authorizing the city to provide two tax increment financing (TIF) packages for the project.

 http://www.crainscleveland.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20050927/FREE/50927006/1004/newsletter01
« Last Edit: September 11, 2009, 11:26:54 AM by MayDay »

Offline Map Boy

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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #202 on: September 27, 2005, 02:46:10 PM »
time to re-name this thread???

this was buzzed about during the first day of the "Learning from the Dutch" symposium at CSU yesterday...

Battery Park broke ground, the Avenue District will follow in the spring and perhaps this as well???

Offline 3231

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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #203 on: September 27, 2005, 02:50:33 PM »
Hmm..

this article mentions 400 residential units.  With such a large footprint, I am glad to see an increased residential total. 

Let's hope Council passes this quickly.

Offline JEJustice08

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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #204 on: September 27, 2005, 02:51:05 PM »
MGD,

What I love is how it started out as a $170 million project and it now stands at $230 million.

Offline Map Boy

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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #205 on: September 27, 2005, 02:53:01 PM »
I think that may include the public investment and rising costs of materials...  but yeah, numbers like that should mean a great product!

Offline zaceman

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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #206 on: October 03, 2005, 07:12:15 AM »
Flats plan on approval fast track
Wolstein scurries for citys OK so he can beat rising interest rates

By STAN BULLARD

6:00 am, October 3, 2005



Scott Wolstein and supporters of his $230 million plan to remake the East Bank of the Flats are seeking rapid Cleveland City Council approval of legislation to move the project forward, but the developer maintains his need for speed is driven more by interest rate hikes out of Washington than political considerations at home.

More at crainscleveland.com http://www.crainscleveland.com
« Last Edit: September 11, 2009, 11:27:12 AM by MayDay »

Offline MyTwoSense

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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #207 on: October 03, 2005, 07:22:21 AM »

In the process of pursuing the project, Mr. Wolstein said he is seeing a new attitude emerge in Cleveland government. Its vastly different from the adversarial environment a decade ago that prompted the family to shelve the project.

Ive been blown away by the cooperation weve received, Mr. Wolstein said.

Thats a powerful statement.  I hope other developers feel the same way.
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Offline Map Boy

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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #208 on: October 03, 2005, 11:08:25 AM »
Whether or not we're seeing all these projects coming on line at the same time is politically driven (re-election) or not, the fact is that they're signing contracts and breaking ground.  These are bigger than anything in recent history that involves such a mixture of uses in the city proper and I think that's a great sign!

Offline sooner

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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #209 on: October 03, 2005, 12:02:33 PM »
Without a doubt, the re-election campaign is a factor.  However, it seems to me that a lot of business has been taken care of since Chris Ronayne was hired. That is only my sense from afar...but what does everyone else think?

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