Author Topic: Cleveland: Flats East Bank  (Read 1601971 times)

0 Members and 2 Guests are viewing this topic.

Offline Map Boy

  • 2717'-Burj Khalifa
  • **********
  • Posts: 3210
Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #140 on: May 16, 2005, 08:07:55 PM »
Ok, I could accept the brownfield remediation excuse, but it's not like there wasn't stuff on here already...I suppose it's better to get 'er done right, though, rather than finding out in 20 years that the thing is sliding into the Cuyahoga or that radiation has been soaking up through the beams for two decades.  As for phases...that would be ok, I guess, but it's no larger than Crocker park's initial opening section, right?  Why couldn't it all be done at once? 

One exciting bit to think about, though, is that by 2007/8, there may be new ground struck to the north, east, and west...the towpath trail could be further north by then...the Browns could be winning...possibilities galore!

And on the subject of the "every day riverfront development" feeling of this project, I have a couple comments.  One, I think this one has the potential, with the boardwalk and the plaza and the size of the river, to be much more intimately tied to the water.  The buildings sort of hug the curve and the promenade definitely does.  As for the architecture, we don't know yet what it's going to look like...materials, design, etc...I'm pretty sure these pics are all just concepts.  And finally, I'm envisioning this more like Tribeca than South Street Seaport...SSS is an outdoor mall...this will be different.  (fingers tightly crossed!)

Offline mrnyc

  • 2717'-Burj Khalifa
  • **********
  • Posts: 10225
    • friends of the highline
Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #141 on: May 16, 2005, 08:14:54 PM »
wow thanks for putting up the renderings you guys. thats a lotta nice work.

my initial impressions? somewhat disappointed. it seems rush rushed. i thought ok office park with the second rendering and then, oh man, pj's with the third -- ha!

also, i immediately fretted over the loss of kindler's, the oldest bar in the city, and the original rockefeller warehouse, i wish they could be saved, but that is impossible with this kind of rather uninspired clearcut thinking. i say uninspired because it looks like similar stuff you see going up recently in other cities. realize this tears the visually unique heart out of the flats.

howevvvvvver, i am very happy and excited about it and glad wolstein is in the lead, true clevelanders with cleveland at heart.  go figure, right? the positives far far outweigh the workmanlike architectural blandness. anything with residential over retail, amenities and density like that is superb in my book. also, the new public boardwalk looks....not unsafe! ha! that will be fun.

alright so whats the 'real' timeline? when can they get cracking and get some shovels in the ground? 2009 seems like a long time to build those?

oh yeah, the dfas structure is a bonus imo, fingers crossed there. something will surely go there soon anyway if this is built.


"That whole rural thing. It's a joke." Ed Koch

Offline Map Boy

  • 2717'-Burj Khalifa
  • **********
  • Posts: 3210
Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #142 on: May 16, 2005, 08:46:14 PM »
yeah, about that boardwalk...it's funny to think of those benches just looking over at a whole lotta nothing...I hope there's a sea of construction cranes over the river by the time people are sitting down to relax by the riverside!

Next, the old post and heavy chain routine...is that still the standard?  I know the majority of North Coast Harbor has this design, but is it the best idea for a potentially crowded boardwalk?  I'm sure we're due for a lot more design, but I'd like to see something more along the lines of a handsome 4-foot iron fence that you can lean up against without fear of falling into a river that could catch fire at any moment!

and what about a connection to the future Whiskey Island park???  something across the rail bridge perhaps?  Portland Steel Bridge is the same sort of lift bridge and it accommodates commercial and amtrak rail and has a great pedestrian component to it that connects two riverfront parks.  how 'bout it?

Offline 3231

  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 4271
Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #143 on: May 16, 2005, 10:27:55 PM »
I am very excited about the design.  There are many more city blocks than the existing East Bank has.  This creates for some potentially lively streets.  Also, I like the area along the river.  The present configuration blocks river views and does not allow pedestrians to meander along the riverbanks.  I wish that the boardwalk could be connected to Settler's Landing and then over to the Towpath.  This would be fantastic.

I miss the old Flats.  But, it was a formula that didn't work anymore.  I enjoyed its heyday, but we have to recreate ourselves if the status quo is sinking fast. 

On the timeline: all the land is yet to be acquired.  If eminent domain must be used, it could be a lengthy procedure.  Also, funding is not secured.  I can see why it will take awhile.  I highly doubt that they will break ground this year.  Once they do, it shouldn't take four years to complete, unless leasing and condo sales lag.  But, I think that this project will have the fastest sale compared to other downtown condos.  It will be a dynamic area with narrow streets, river views, and good retail.   

Offline oallostavros

  • 408'-Kettering Tower
  • **
  • Posts: 117
Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #144 on: May 16, 2005, 11:55:43 PM »
Anyone else notice the parks on the roofs of the buildings?

Offline MayDay

  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 6949
  • The HBIC from the CLE
    • Cleveland Skyscrapers
Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #145 on: May 17, 2005, 08:17:12 AM »
"what is the caliber of the existing building stock in the redevelopment area?  Not knowing the area really well..."

Here are some links to images of the existing building stock. Quite frankly, it's not much to write home about. I'm also a preservationist at heart but the loss of the buildings in question wouldn't warrant any alarms.
http://www.placesintown.com/cleveland/cleveland_flats5_lg.jpg
http://www.placesintown.com/cleveland/cleveland_flats1_lg.jpg

The big problem with the East Bank as it is now is that those buildings block all public access to the riverfront. Unless you're a patron and able to access one of the decks/patios (and given how many places are closed, that's not easy to do), they block some of the best views of the river/lake. In many cases, the decks aren't connected so pedestrian traffic along the river is hampered. Oh and don't forget the lovely parking lot RIGHT on the river.

"realize this tears the visually unique heart out of the flats."

Hardly - look at the aerial and compare it to the site plan - a major component of this project is being built on what? What's that? A parking lot! Correct me if I'm wrong - we've all been chanting "build infill on the parking lots!" A small strip of bland brick buildings (remember, we are hardly talking about buildings like the Hoyt and Bradley Buildings in the HWD) that have outlived their usefulness many times over are not the "visually unique" heart of the Flats. The Flats are the river, the bridges, the lake, the leisure boats, the ore freighters - and those aren't going anywhere.


Offline Qwios

  • 367'-PNC Bank
  • **
  • Posts: 83
Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #146 on: May 17, 2005, 09:09:43 AM »
As long as the building don't taper inwards towards the bottom like in the third picture I say good stuff.  Wolsteins can have the east bank, Stark gets the WHD, Ratners get TowerCity/Scranton/whatever else.  Lewis I guess gets University Circle, now only to lure Jacobs out of his "estate planning."  Who did I leave out?  Ahh yes the Lerners... and then on to our out of towners Quicken loans guy, Gund, and so on and so forth.
so says the exurbanite...

Offline 3231

  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 4271
Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #147 on: May 17, 2005, 09:46:16 AM »
If this project goes through, it looks to have some nice spin off potential. 

1. Going down Old River Road towards Settler's Landing.  I am not sure how much vacany there is, but that is a nice road that could really be helped along by this project.

2. Along west 10th---the huge surface lot just north of the Main Ave bridge would be a nice spot for residential tower, a la district park.  Also, this could help encourage the resurrection of District Park.  I would like to see some pedestrian corridor go through the District Park site in order to help connect the East Bank to the WHD.  Presently, St. Claire is the only viable way into the Flats.  Main Ave's stretch underneath the main Ave bridge is way too gloomy.   

Offline StrangeBrew

  • 408'-Kettering Tower
  • **
  • Posts: 129
Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #148 on: May 17, 2005, 09:49:38 AM »
The whole problem with "entertainment districts", in my opinion, is 1) they only generate revenue for part of the day (after the sun goes down), 2) they are at the mercy of other factors such as the public's surplus disposable income for drinks, winning sports teams to draw crowds, warm weather to keep crowds moving, etc.) 

The overall residential component breaths real life to the project. It is futher enhanced by public transportation and its connectivity to neighborhoods such as Warehouse Dist and Ohio City/Tremont/Duck Island/Scranton Rd., Quay 55, and Gateway.

Finally, an entertainment district along Cleveland's waterfronts could always occur along the lake to the north on the Port Authority's land (around Cle. Browns Stadium) or to expand along the parking lot on the West Bank.  But, I don't think it is that important to use waterfront land for bars. 

Offline nsc

  • 468'-Scripps Center
  • ***
  • Posts: 236
Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #149 on: May 17, 2005, 11:08:01 AM »
^It is mixed use.  There is more than nightlife incorporated.  There are offices for the daytime benifit, restaurants for the nighttime benifit and housing for the 24/7 benifit.  That is the whole idea of mixed use....making money at all hours of the day.

Offline 3231

  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 4271
Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #150 on: May 17, 2005, 11:54:33 AM »
As others such as MGD has pointed out, I wish that a small boutique hotel could be a part of this project. 

Offline nsc

  • 468'-Scripps Center
  • ***
  • Posts: 236
Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #151 on: May 17, 2005, 12:03:29 PM »
^I think we need to wait for the convention center for more lodging to pop up.  Also, I do not think we should be in this position.  The flats should have been built up back in its heyday when it had a big name nationwide.  You would not even have to advertise for this developement or look for more money.  Hotels and residential would have been major cash back then.  But it went to hell, now we are stuck with a risky developement, that still may not happen,  that involves tearing buildings down that once brought in tons of money and tourism. 

Offline WoollyBear

  • I'm a Witness
  • 468'-Scripps Center
  • ***
  • Posts: 245
  • Born: Cleveland, Ohio
Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #152 on: May 17, 2005, 12:19:09 PM »
I really like the idea of the boardwalk. I was just viewing the San Antonio picture thread that  showed the river walk, and I was really impressed by the number of people walking. I think that a boardwalk by this development would be a great way to lure residents, and tourists. Could you imagine living there, and being able to go out on any night and enjoy a great meal, do some shopping and then finish off the night by walking down by the river? That would be awesome. If this thing gets built, by 2015 I bet that entire corner of downtown is going to look totally different. I can not wait until this thread gets moved to the "completed projects" board.

Offline Map Boy

  • 2717'-Burj Khalifa
  • **********
  • Posts: 3210
Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #153 on: May 17, 2005, 06:21:59 PM »
"I think we need to wait for the convention center for more lodging to pop up."

I disagree...boutique hotels don't necessarily rely on convention center-type traffic to thrive.  They're more for the hip, young traveler who wants to hang out in real neighborhoods where real nightlife and residents can be found.  I know this is what I look for when I go out of town for a weekend getaway...boutique hotels and B&Bs.  I also know that folks in my company, which is NYC non-profit, travel to the midwest quite frequently for small meetings and site visits to their projects.  Places like KC, Cincinnati, Cleveland...mid-sized cities, filled with pockets of character. But if you were to just settle for an airport hotel or a big-time downtown hotel, you'd miss out on a lot of this.  My boss, in particular, is big on checking out the boutique hotels whenever she travels.  I think she likes supporting smaller scale businesses and definitely enjoys staying in more functional neighborhoods, rather than the financial CBD. 

I think a spinoff boutique hotel or one as a part of this project would do quite well.

Offline clvlndr

  • 2717'-Burj Khalifa
  • **********
  • Posts: 5787
Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #154 on: May 18, 2005, 01:33:06 AM »
... one note re the long time lag to completion (2009): that even after brownfield clearing, the PD article suggests sufficient street infrastructure -- water, sewers, electric -- must be significantly expanded/upgraded to support this kind of high density development of this project ... as opposed to the lighter needs of the mere part-time bars/restaurants along Old River Road,  and the warehouses/bars that preceded them... and that this upgrading, along with the reconfiguring of the streets, themselves, must be done/will take time, before the actual sites can be graded and buildings can rise. 

... makes sense.

Offline Map Boy

  • 2717'-Burj Khalifa
  • **********
  • Posts: 3210
Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #155 on: May 18, 2005, 07:56:06 PM »
well, it better be spectacular when it's finished...that's all I have to say!  4 years...sheesh

Offline Map Boy

  • 2717'-Burj Khalifa
  • **********
  • Posts: 3210
Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #156 on: May 18, 2005, 08:02:17 PM »
What?!  No one posted this yet???

Flats project draws praise, concern from City Council
Wednesday, May 18, 2005
Olivera Perkins
Plain Dealer Reporter

Cleveland City Council members say Scott Wolstein's $225 million plan to redevelop the east bank of the Flats is a good one as long as it doesn't shortchange the schools and other neighborhood projects.

Wolstein presented the plan Tuesday to Council's Community and Economic Development Committee.

More at cleveland.com http://www.cleveland.com
« Last Edit: September 11, 2009, 11:27:41 AM by MayDay »

Offline Map Boy

  • 2717'-Burj Khalifa
  • **********
  • Posts: 3210
Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #157 on: May 18, 2005, 08:08:08 PM »
One comment about the last sentence...I think with all the new residential in both neighborhoods and the distance between the two there can be demand for two theaters...and as I always say, provision of amenities will spur even more development, so these will both be great for their neighborhoods and their near surroundings!

Offline zaceman

  • 771'-Terminal Tower
  • *******
  • Posts: 1016
    • zaklong.tumblr.com
Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #158 on: May 18, 2005, 08:11:45 PM »
oh yea ohio city/detroit shoreway can definately support its own along with the new downtown one.  they could probably even collaborate

Offline MayDay

  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 6949
  • The HBIC from the CLE
    • Cleveland Skyscrapers
Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #159 on: May 18, 2005, 08:24:08 PM »
"Councilman Zack Reed expressed concern about the financing district, saying the schools should get more than half of the taxes.

"How can we go to the residents and ask for a levy while at the same time say in the light of progress, we need to give this project 50 percent of the school taxes?" Reed said."


If I was Zack Reed, I'd be more worried about my recent DUI charge - oops! What would he suggest? Gee, let's not approve ANY investment - and let's not provide ANY incentive to developers until the schools have a 100% graduation rate? The revenue from this project is a drop in the bucket compared to the real needs of the schools. If he's THAT concerned about school funding, he needs to take a trip down I-71 and argue school funding issues on the level where real difference can be made.

Online X

  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 7377
Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #160 on: May 18, 2005, 11:00:18 PM »
Not to mention the fact that 50% of something is better than 0% of nothing.

Offline MyTwoSense

  • 40+ and Fly
  • 2717'-Burj Khalifa
  • **********
  • Posts: 21066
  • back with a vengeance!
Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #161 on: May 19, 2005, 09:46:15 AM »
Not to mention the fact that 50% of something is better than 0% of nothing.

AMEN!  You can say that again! 

If he wants to be upset about something be upset about "secret" meeting for a "lifestyle" center in a inconvienient area of the city when those stores could be constructed in current buildings/parking lots in downtown...but dont get my pressure up just yet this morning!  :x  :x
my 2 ¢     Please Sell Crazy Someplace Else....We Have Excess Inventory Here!!

Offline MayDay

  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 6949
  • The HBIC from the CLE
    • Cleveland Skyscrapers
Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #162 on: May 19, 2005, 09:55:24 AM »
^Oh Steelyard Commons won't even be something as "nice" as a lifestyle center. We're talking a 'power center' along the lines of Macedonia Commons or Avon Commons - big boxes surrounded by seas of asphalt. I know Jane really didn't please a lot of people (myself included, a registered voter in the city of Cleveland) by going behind Council's back on this one.

Offline MyTwoSense

  • 40+ and Fly
  • 2717'-Burj Khalifa
  • **********
  • Posts: 21066
  • back with a vengeance!
Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #163 on: May 19, 2005, 10:07:43 AM »
^Oh Steelyard Commons won't even be something as "nice" as a lifestyle center. We're talking a 'power center' along the lines of Macedonia Commons or Avon Commons - big boxes surrounded by seas of asphalt. I know Jane really didn't please a lot of people (myself included, a registered voter in the city of Cleveland) by going behind Council's back on this one.

As another registered voter IN Cleveland, Jane got a piece of my mind at 3:45AM this morning.  Steelyard got my juices flowing and the email started flowing.   argh! :x
my 2 ¢     Please Sell Crazy Someplace Else....We Have Excess Inventory Here!!

Offline FerrariEnzo

  • 665'-Queen City Square
  • ******
  • Posts: 919
  • Kingpin
Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #164 on: May 22, 2005, 03:59:45 PM »
ARCHITECTURE
City ought to weigh Flats project design
Sunday, May 22, 2005
Developer Scott Wolstein's announcement last week that he wants to launch a sweeping redevelopment in the Flats along the East Bank of the Cuyahoga River was great news for Cleveland.

It would transform a row of seedy, dying bars and nightclubs north of the Main Avenue (Burton Memorial) Bridge into a 13-acre neighborhood intended to attract the young, smart, workers Cleveland needs to power the high-tech industries of the future.

More at cleveland.com http://www.cleveland.com
« Last Edit: September 11, 2009, 11:28:34 AM by MayDay »
Work hard.

Offline Map Boy

  • 2717'-Burj Khalifa
  • **********
  • Posts: 3210
Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #165 on: May 23, 2005, 09:31:58 PM »
Yes, a thoughtful and on-point article by Mr. Litt.  This is on all of our minds!

Offline sooner

  • 408'-Kettering Tower
  • **
  • Posts: 167
Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #166 on: May 24, 2005, 01:56:45 PM »
Agreed, this is a little too suburbanish ( is that a word?) for the location...not that I don't want to see it happen an be successful.
By the way, of all the drawing board or proposed projects in Cle, which do you think is most important or would have the greatest impact.  There are a dozen or more currently being discussed in this forum.  Personally, I think if this project can persuade the Defense Finance jobs to stay in Cle, it would be the most crucial. 
Number one fantasy project would be Peter Lewis deciding that his company should move downtown with his several thousand employees.
How would everyone else rank these?

Offline MyTwoSense

  • 40+ and Fly
  • 2717'-Burj Khalifa
  • **********
  • Posts: 21066
  • back with a vengeance!
Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #167 on: May 24, 2005, 05:15:31 PM »
Agreed, this is a little too suburbanish ( is that a word?) for the location...not that I don't want to see it happen an be successful.
By the way, of all the drawing board or proposed projects in Cle, which do you think is most important or would have the greatest impact. There are a dozen or more currently being discussed in this forum. Personally, I think if this project can persuade the Defense Finance jobs to stay in Cle, it would be the most crucial.
Number one fantasy project would be Peter Lewis deciding that his company should move downtown with his several thousand employees.
How would everyone else rank these?

Without seeing any drawing or renderings lets see what they have offered.  I think they can still have Unique and architecually inspiring buildings even if not highrise.  the DFAS jobs would be great.

Progessive downtown would be progressive!!!  Jane and the county comm. should be kissing is a$$ to develop something downtown.  however, why aren't we talking to Sherwin Williams to stop hiding they're corporate name and build something on Public Sq (or other lot in downtown) and show some civic pride. 

Hell I wouldn't mind S-W slapping their name on the BP Building, but i would rather see that as a hotel!  Any tenant in the building could be moved to other first class office space downtown and this could be our "convention" sized hotel without building something new.

My wish is that we develop subway lines under our major avenues.  even if they only go 55/60 blocks initially
my 2 ¢     Please Sell Crazy Someplace Else....We Have Excess Inventory Here!!

Offline 3231

  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 4271
Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #168 on: May 24, 2005, 05:32:52 PM »
I like the design of the project for a few main reasons:

Many small streets that intersect.  This creates interesting places to walk.  There is always a new perspective at each corner. The current old river road suffers by being one long street with several uninspired older buildings (north of the bridge). 

The four-way intersection where there is a second floor setback.  The first floors are right on the street, but the upper levels are set back at the corners.  This will allow some much needed sunshine to flow into that space.

The walkways along the river.  No need to explain this.

The streets are perpendicular to the river. This allows some good views of the river even from a block or two inland.

The mini-amphitheater on the river.  Cleveland so much needs well-planned public spaces where people can gather. The Malls are great, but no one lives there or has any reason to pass through.  This amphitheater will give people a place to sit and watch as boats go by. 

Good placement of the bookstore.  To survive, it needs to be close to the warehouse district.  Being at that corner and adjacent to the rapid station gives it good visibility.  Also, the bookstore would be across from the art theater.  Good idea,  Movie crowds like to do things before or after a movie.  Smart people often like art flicks. Smart people like to browse bookstores.  This arrangement provides a good incentive to stick around the area for a longer amount of time. 

I hope to see this development spark some rehabs along the south stretch of old river road.  Could we please turn the large tool company's building (forgot the name) into condos. It is a building that screams for renovation.  All the windows are boarded up with some aluminium siding.  I wonder who is frying in architectural hell for that decision?  That street, with the old Watermark building, could be a great place for some pricey condos.  The only problem is the Odeon.  I don't know who would want to live next to that place. It can be very loud.

I would think that the smaller details of the buildings have yet to be determined.  Too early in the process.  I really like what they have presented.
« Last Edit: May 24, 2005, 05:44:26 PM by wimwar »

Offline KJP

  • Premium Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 38243
  • Rebuilding the cities that built America.
    • All Aboard Ohio
Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #169 on: May 24, 2005, 06:46:55 PM »
See my post at

http://www.urbanohio.com/forum2/index.php?topic=1782.msg34736#msg34736

for a way to possibly link up downtown destinations by reworking the convention center plan.

KJP
"Courage is the first of human qualities because it is the quality which guarantees all others." – Winston Churchill

Offline urbanlife

  • 665'-Queen City Square
  • ******
  • Posts: 825
  • don't be complacent. innovate.
Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #170 on: June 15, 2005, 05:25:29 PM »
   
Circus in the Flats sold

By STAN BULLARD

June 15. 2005 11:32AM


The sale of the Circus, an adult club in the Flats, likely adds a new hoop to jump through for the real estate developer planning to redo Old River Road as an upscale downtown neighborhood.

HDV Cleveland LLC, an out-of-town investor group associated with the 75-club Déjà Vu chain, acquired the Circus in the Flats on Tuesday, June 14, and plans to turn it into a Larry Flynt Hustler Club. The sale comes shortly after the Wolstein Group development concern announced plans to remake Old River north of Main Avenue as a new downtown neighborhood with condos, apartments and retail space.

More at
http://www.crainscleveland.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20050615/FREE/50615001/1004&Profile=1004


 
« Last Edit: September 11, 2009, 11:29:00 AM by MayDay »
"Never mistake motion for action." - E. Hemingway

Offline Map Boy

  • 2717'-Burj Khalifa
  • **********
  • Posts: 3210
Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #171 on: June 15, 2005, 05:35:38 PM »
what the *#@?!?!  this is ridiculous!  was he not approached by Wolstein about selling to him?  Is he just trying to muck things up?  and what is a chain doing buying this land with a proposal like this on the table???

Offline buildingcincinnati

  • aka grasscat
  • 2717'-Burj Khalifa
  • **********
  • Posts: 8340
  • Building Cincinnati isn't a job, it's a lifestyle
    • Building Cincinnati
Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #172 on: June 15, 2005, 06:58:20 PM »
Man, I was at the Circus a couple of years ago for my friend's bachelor party.  One of the strippers nearly tore his nipple off.  I don't think he was expecting to be flogged and beaten.

Anyway, back to the topic!
THE ColDayMan's sig solidifies my status as a UO Hall of Famer.

Online X

  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 7377
Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #173 on: June 15, 2005, 07:56:10 PM »
Its a great scam.  Buy a property with some supposed plans to invest a bunch in it, then claim that its worth alot because of the great plans you have.  All you really have to do is buy it and flip.  Your lawyers will do the rest.

Offline 3231

  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 4271
Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #174 on: June 15, 2005, 08:07:44 PM »
Its a bit unsettling that a national chain would feel confident enough to buy into this area when it is slated to be demonished.

Remove Ads