Author Topic: Cleveland: Flats East Bank  (Read 1555534 times)

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Offline clvlndr

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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #105 on: May 13, 2005, 12:33:52 AM »
Answers part of my question (from the PD site): Location: north from Main Avenue to the Norfolk Southern railroad tracks and between West 10th Street and the east bank of the Cuyahoga River

One big negative: I hear a chunk of $$ for this is coming from our already starving school system -- that really stinks, indeed.   Kinda curbs a bit of my enthusiasm.

Offline Map Boy

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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #106 on: May 13, 2005, 07:49:48 PM »
I guess the boundaries are a little smaller than I had previously expected.  And I didn't realize it entailed demolition of existing "historic" structures.  Though, if we want public access to the waterfront, I guess there's no choice....

I'm excited to see this spill over (eventually) to north of the Norfolk Southern tracks.  There was a plan several years back for a World Trade Center of Cleveland office complex & hotel that included building over the Waterfront Line and featured a new station inside the complex.  I'm assuming this has been dead for years, but it demonstrates that the potential for an additional station is pretty reasonable.

Can't wait for monday!

Offline X

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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #107 on: May 13, 2005, 08:33:53 PM »
Most of the Historic stuctures are on the other side of Old River Road.  I hope some of them can be incorporated, especially the old Kindler's (I can't remember what it is now).

The WTC on the Waterfront Line site is dead, but I've seen rumors recently of a potential Gateway site.

Offline clvlndr

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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #108 on: May 14, 2005, 10:38:33 AM »
Eventually, MGD, plans call for development north of the NS tracks as part of the Harborplace development, but I'm wondering whether more brownfields clean-up money will be needed for that parcel -- if I'm not wrong, $1M in such funds have been allocated for cleanup of the area Wolstein now plans to develop...

Also, you’re right about adding a Waterfront Line stop on that elevated portion of tracks -- space for such was provided (the embankment widens allowing for potential train platforms in that area) for a station, originally, for a proposed Great Lakes Aquarium that sadly was never built -- slated to be, I think, just north of the tracks.  It's very likely that RTA will revisit building a stop there with this new development which will give the development extremely intimate rail service -- much like that in Shaker Square...

Also, I agree with X -- there are a lot of interesting, historic facades along ORR that I hope Wolstein incorporates into the project rather than bulldozes.  Sadly, if I recall, his original stated intentions were to clear the area entirely and build anew... this wouldn't be good imho.

Offline 3231

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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #109 on: May 14, 2005, 12:55:08 PM »
Regarding the facades, I like the building where the Harvard brewhouse once was.  But, I think that we need to put things in perspective.  I don't love that they will tear down some old buildings, but I view it as a necessary evil  From what I've heard, the streets will be reconfigured.  The locations of the existing structures are not situated in accord with the plans.  This project needs to be done right.  It can really boost the warehouse district and it can spur development of the port land to the north.  If the right retailers can be enticed, such as a bookstore, I think that demand will really rise for the housing units.  I am very excited to see this.  However, it looks like everything is far from done.  All the land is yet to be amassed. That can be a very elongated process.

Offline X

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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #110 on: May 14, 2005, 03:33:32 PM »
I'm worried that, as always seems to happen in this town, we will get as far as demolishing the really nice historic buildings and then the project will stall and we'll be left with nothing.  I've been feeling really pessimistic lately, I guess.

Offline Frank V

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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #111 on: May 15, 2005, 06:39:53 AM »
I think the reason the price has escalated is due to rising steel and wood prices.

Offline FerrariEnzo

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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #112 on: May 15, 2005, 11:02:23 AM »
God help us indeed.  I would like not to see eminent domain used, nasty thing that is, abuse of property rights.
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Offline Punch

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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #113 on: May 15, 2005, 05:32:45 PM »
It sounds like he is ready to deal if the price is right, but I agree with Ferrari, we cant use eminent domain.
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Offline 3231

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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #114 on: May 15, 2005, 07:02:20 PM »
Sometimes we have a very skewed version of property rights.  If one man's right to property hurts a city's ability to provide for its citizens, then we have a system that fails.  This summer's supreme court case will be very interesting.  That one seems abusive, while Cleveland's case would pale in comparision.   

Offline 3231

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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #115 on: May 15, 2005, 07:03:40 PM »
If the price is right?  The problem is that landowners like George get very greedy and demand much more than their property is really worth.  Let's just hope that he takes the higher road.

Offline 3231

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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #116 on: May 15, 2005, 07:05:37 PM »
My third consecutive post..

Is there any engineering issues at play here?  How high can you build on land that is so close to the rigver and lake?  Also, is the land north of the tracks reclaimed?

Offline FerrariEnzo

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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #117 on: May 15, 2005, 09:12:39 PM »
Breaking your string wimwar.
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Offline KJP

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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #118 on: May 15, 2005, 10:10:29 PM »
Yes, all downtown land north of the tracks has been reclaimed. There are old pictures that show the railroad tracks hugging the shoreline. But don't take my word for it. Here's a picture from the 1890s, showing the downtown lakefront. In the background are the old Lakeside Hospitals, between what is now East 9th and East 12th streets....



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Offline StrangeBrew

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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #119 on: May 16, 2005, 08:25:23 AM »
The Flats are the original settlement area in Cleveland.  They have basically been developed since the Moses set anchor.  During the late nineteenth century and early twentieth, various refineries and other industries sat where bars and warehouse would later come.  The land beneath those bars is a little dirty...to say the least. 

Offline WoollyBear

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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #120 on: May 16, 2005, 12:44:02 PM »
When are the plans for the Flats development supposed to be released?

Offline MayDay

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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #121 on: May 16, 2005, 12:50:39 PM »
It's what you've been waiting for!













Views from the site:






Quite a crowd showed up:


Some of the highlights:

The glassy building closest to the lake is a proposal for the DFAS offices. I guess high rent was cited as a reason for closing the Cleveland center *however* that rent was set by the Feds (another branch, that is). They are going to appeal the recommendation by offering the new structure (400K sq. ft.) as a site for DFAS.

I noticed that parking is limited to one surface lot, and garages under the townhouses on the northern section of the site.

Utilities will be buried and/or concealed.


Offline Paul in Cleveland

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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #122 on: May 16, 2005, 12:53:13 PM »
MayDay and I went down to the press release at 11:30 a.m. today.  We both took photos of the renderings (there were only a few), but I don't have a way to upload them from my camera until I get home, I imagine MayDay will beat me to the punch, anyway.

The design by Forum Architects (never heard of 'em) is okay, lots of 4-ish story red brick buildings with lighter yellowish brick on the top floor, some skylights.  Nothing mindblowing, but nothing awful, either.  It kind of reminds me of a new urban college campus.  One thing I like is a semicircular marina/plaza located about where Dick's Last Resort is.  Kind of an shallow ampitheater facing the river.

They also had in one rendering about a 400,000-450,000 sq-ft building where the Cleveland World Trade Center proposal from a few years back would have gone, just inside that strange peninsula of land made by the Waterfront Line, north of the main Wolstein proposal.  Apparently, that is a part they're adding for that Defense Accounting (or whatever) group that was just announced is leaving Cleveland.  They are hoping to house all 1,000 of those people in this building, if the gov't. will reconsider moving the jobs out of town.

Offline Paul in Cleveland

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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #123 on: May 16, 2005, 12:53:47 PM »
Holy crap, you beat me to it as I was typing!  :)

Offline WoollyBear

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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #124 on: May 16, 2005, 01:15:22 PM »
Thank you so much for taking time out of your day to go down there and take pictures of these proposals.  :clap: I was pretty impressed with the pictures. I really like how they will incorporate retail and residential. Was there any news on when construction was going to start? I was really happy to hear that they have a plan for DFAS, hopefully they reconsider moving the jobs out-of-town. My favorite part was the marina/plaza. It kind of looks like if this project is successful that it can spread to the other side of the bridge.

Offline zaceman

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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #125 on: May 16, 2005, 01:22:55 PM »
oooo nice!

Offline StrangeBrew

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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #126 on: May 16, 2005, 01:37:52 PM »
May Day you are the Freakin' MAN!!! 

Offline StrangeBrew

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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #127 on: May 16, 2005, 01:54:21 PM »
Forum Architects are architects forumly...get it...known as GSI. 

Offline Punch

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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #128 on: May 16, 2005, 02:04:01 PM »
before I read Paul's comments I was going to write Holy Crap myself.  I really did not imagine that this development would transform the entire area!

Even if that DFAS isnt built, it would be nice to have an office building with direct RTA access.

Is that surface lot behind the development the spot where district park will go?
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Offline MayDay

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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #129 on: May 16, 2005, 02:11:58 PM »
No, the District Park site is located to the right of the proposed 'bookstore' site, and across West 10th from the existing RTA Station.

Offline FerrariEnzo

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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #130 on: May 16, 2005, 02:20:53 PM »
Small footprint but hey its something to get teh ball rolling.
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Offline nsc

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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #131 on: May 16, 2005, 03:18:29 PM »
That may be one of the most beautiful developements to ever hit the inner-city.

Offline 3231

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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #132 on: May 16, 2005, 03:39:04 PM »
Wolstein announces Flats plan
 
 
By STAN BULLARD
 
Updated 4:15 p.m.

Wolstein Group today announced its plans for the "Flats East Bank Neighborhood," a $225 million residential and retail complex that would transform the dilapidated — but key — part of the Flats at the north end of Old River Road between Main Avenue and the CSX railroad tracks.
 
The plan calls for 330 residential units and 250,000 square feet of entertainment and retail space. Old River Road would be relocated slightly east and the riverside would be reshaped with a waterfront promenade and marina. It is the largest private real estate project proposed since 1988 in downtown Cleveland.
 
More at crainscleveland.com http://www.crainscleveland.com
« Last Edit: September 11, 2009, 11:29:45 AM by MayDay »

Offline presOhio

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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #133 on: May 16, 2005, 04:03:44 PM »
OK, not to throw rain on anyone's parade here, but what is the caliber of the existing building stock in the redevelopment area?  Not knowing the area really well, and relying on the aerial view in a recent post, it appears that there might be 19th century commercial buildings on site.  What are we talking here?

Reason -- we are getting ready to review nominations for Ohio's Most Endangered Historic Sites -- and while we have a Cleveland nomination (Cozad-Bates house near University Circle), is this something we should also consider?

Don't get me wrong -- I understand that the loss of historic building stock is necessary sometimes to generate economic development to save a larger, more complete set of buildings -- is that what is going on here?

Any insights on to what is there now?  Thanks!
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Offline oallostavros

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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #134 on: May 16, 2005, 05:38:32 PM »
A big thank you to you guys for the effort for these pictures   :clap:

The "project" looks great to me.  There's plenty of public space, and Wolstein's comments in the PD article show that he has a vision for this place - neighborhood first.

BTW, The Stonebridge project on the west bank looks great in those pictures. 

One thing though - Anyone else think the noise from the trains will be a problem for some of the residential units?

Today is a good day for Cleveland - lets hope it all pans out.

Offline Map Boy

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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #135 on: May 16, 2005, 07:25:26 PM »
First, a reply to the last post...I just spent a morning touring a new building here in Manhattan that sits not only above Houston, 2nd Ave, and the Bowery (all VERY busy streets), but also above 4 subway lines.  We were in the building for about 2 hours and the only time I heard traffic was when we were on the sidewalk and the subway when we were in the basement, checking out the pool!  We commented on this to the developer and he said it was a welcome side-effect of the materials that they used in conforming with NYC energy and building codes.  Thick glass and sturdy supports and walls...higher cost, but far better product.

Next, my reaction to the images and article:  I like the plan, the scale, the public space, and especially the ideology...  And my only comment about the article?  2009??? WTF???  Can we not build faster than that?  Maybe they're talking about opening it it phases...but come on...four years if they break ground this year???

Offline clvlndr

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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #136 on: May 16, 2005, 07:33:07 PM »
Great job MayDay! you could show Cleve.com a thing or 2 (as of 6:30p they STILL hadn't posted anything and I’m sure it won’t match what you’ve posted)...  I am very excited about this and hope our public officials stay on task to get this thing through w/o major battles.

Now for the sour note -- call me wet blanket #2: as nice as this more permanent, high-density development makes perfect sense, I can't but feel sadness that the old East Bank will be snuffed in this development.  The exciting old Flats that helped make us one of the nation's top summer pleasure destinations, will be no more.  As nice as this new stuff looks, it kinda screams: Joe Typical Waterfront Development -- really no different from a lot of cities including, now, Zinzinnati.  As honky-tonk and rundown as the old E. Bank was, this aspect was also its charm.  It had a certain raunchy edginess that sucked people in.  -- I've always disliked plastic joints like Fisherman's Warf, or NY's South St Seaport or (double-ugh!) Baltimore's faux nautical Inner Harbor.  But this is what we're getting.  I just wish that when the Flat's was still hot, we could have meshed in much of these projected buildings behind the building line of ORR bars and restaurants that made the Flats what it was.  We could’ve had our cake and eat it too… Why did it have to die first before we did the right thing? A truly special part of Cleveland is gone forever.

BTW, re the RR: if the impressive drawings are true, it appears that the residential units will both be on a rise a level higher than the NS railroad tracks as well has have their backs to the tracks (and be slightly separated from them by small rear lots).  I would assume, also, that these units will be thoroughly soundproofed – I’m sure the units backing up toward the tracks will be markedly cheaper.  But the rumble of those heavyweights will, I'm sure rattle, a piece of china ware here and there, regardless of soundproofing...

Also, I do like the office building directly connect by the Waterfront Line – which will finally get the ridership boost its always deserved.   Hopefully this office building will be built even if the DFAS isn't saved.  And as far as our prospect for saving it?  My formula, unfortunately, is

  Kucinich + Tubbs-Jones + Campbell x Dubya = No Way Jose!

Offline X

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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #137 on: May 16, 2005, 07:35:51 PM »
I'm disappointed.  I don't think that the architecture or layout of this development pays any attention to the geography, history, or unique identity that the flats possesses.  This could have been built anywhere.  It is, indeed, "Crocker Park in the City". 

Sorry, I've just been very pessimistic lately.  But that's how I feel finally seeing this.

Offline clvlndr

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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #138 on: May 16, 2005, 07:43:17 PM »
MGD, I was put off by the 2009 open date, too... maybe its the brownfield clieanup work to preceed it that will slow things down.

Offline zaceman

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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #139 on: May 16, 2005, 07:52:18 PM »
i wonder if it will be built in phases though...  it looks as thought it very well could

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