Author Topic: Cleveland: Campus District  (Read 115851 times)

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Offline KJP

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Re: Cleveland: Campus District
« Reply #70 on: December 04, 2013, 11:32:38 AM »
This may be a silly question but we keep on hearing how the downtown market cannot yet support the cost of new construction.  Yet this project and even the Mariner's Watch project on Detroit are completely privately financed projects complete with garages and other big ticket stuff (pool on the roof of the campus district project).  So....is this noise about the Cleveland market being too depressed to support new construction incorrect/overblown?

That's a good topic for general discussion at:
http://www.urbanohio.com/forum2/index.php/topic,24830.0.html

Let's keep the discussion here focused on the merits, design, etc. of specific Campus District projects such as 1750 Euclid.
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Offline ClevelandOhio

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Re: Cleveland: Campus District
« Reply #71 on: December 04, 2013, 11:36:54 AM »
@SixthCity, I think, at least for the CSU one, that student housing can demand higher prices as they stick more people into one unit. A four bedroom apartment is common around campuses and rent for a lot, but those same units would make no sense for the general public. Its the same reason you see apartments like this around other campuses, like Kent State.

Edit: posted this without refreshing the page. Missed KJP's post.
« Last Edit: December 04, 2013, 11:38:03 AM by ClevelandOhio »

Offline SixthCity

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Re: Cleveland: Campus District
« Reply #72 on: December 04, 2013, 11:41:54 AM »
@SixthCity, I think, at least for the CSU one, that student housing can demand higher prices as they stick more people into one unit. A four bedroom apartment is common around campuses and rent for a lot, but those same units would make no sense for the general public. Its the same reason you see apartments like this around other campuses, like Kent State.

Edit: posted this without refreshing the page. Missed KJP's post.

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Re: Cleveland: Campus District
« Reply #73 on: December 04, 2013, 11:42:04 AM »
All I hear are excuses about rehab and renovation costs. Meanwhile, dozens of century old buildings were rehabbed into successful apartments. Obsolete office space? Maybe, but it would make decent apartments.

They are demolishing the Playhouse Square Building so they make a useless courtyard in the middle of the apartment building. How about leaving the 4 story portion along Euclid and demolish the 1 story back portion along Brownell Ct? Put the courtyard where the current 1 story section is (that you cannot see from the street).

That would make everybody happy. The historic building fronting Euclid with ground-floor retail gets to survive. The new apartment building can then fill the entire space where the JCF building currently is.

Offline FerrariEnzo

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Re: Cleveland: Campus District
« Reply #74 on: December 04, 2013, 12:01:08 PM »
Trade a non used office building with deep recesses in the middle of downtown (and surface lot) for a pretty decent 500 person development?  All day. 
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Offline willyboy

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Re: Cleveland: Campus District
« Reply #75 on: December 04, 2013, 01:46:21 PM »
All I hear are excuses about rehab and renovation costs. Meanwhile, dozens of century old buildings were rehabbed into successful apartments. Obsolete office space? Maybe, but it would make decent apartments.

They are demolishing the Playhouse Square Building so they make a useless courtyard in the middle of the apartment building. How about leaving the 4 story portion along Euclid and demolish the 1 story back portion along Brownell Ct? Put the courtyard where the current 1 story section is (that you cannot see from the street).

That would make everybody happy. The historic building fronting Euclid with ground-floor retail gets to survive. The new apartment building can then fill the entire space where the JCF building currently is.

I walked by the Play House Square building this morning and it is really a beautiful building, so I will be very upset if they tear this one down. 

It is ironic because I saw Kathleen C. from the Cleveland Restoration Society posted yesterdays PD story by  Dr. Ryberg-Webster, the assistant professor of urban studies at the Levin College of Urban Affairs.  The story is regarding the Ameritrust Building and preserving Cleveland's heritage for the future, adaptive re-use and mentions a historic preservation conference here next year.  So ironic, and right across from the building that houses the historic preservation and urban affairs program.

Obsolete is what old buildings become which is why the term "adaptive re-use" exists.       
« Last Edit: December 04, 2013, 01:47:30 PM by willyboy »
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Offline ClevelandOhio

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Re: Cleveland: Campus District
« Reply #76 on: December 04, 2013, 02:02:45 PM »
^ It ironic that Cleveland State has anything to do with historic preservation when you look at their actions up to today.

Offline willyboy

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Re: Cleveland: Campus District
« Reply #77 on: December 04, 2013, 02:06:41 PM »
^ It ironic that Cleveland State has anything to do with historic preservation when you look at their actions up to today.

I mentioned that on their blog as well.  Perhaps Dr. Ryberg-Webster should be writing about that.   
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Re: Cleveland: Campus District
« Reply #78 on: December 04, 2013, 02:07:34 PM »
^are you including this project?  They have nothing to do with it.

Offline willyboy

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Re: Cleveland: Campus District
« Reply #79 on: December 04, 2013, 02:15:56 PM »
No, we realize that.  We are talking about Cleveland's recent poor record with historic preservation.   
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Offline Hts121

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Re: Cleveland: Campus District
« Reply #80 on: December 04, 2013, 02:49:22 PM »
Positives - more students living downtown, more foot traffic on Euclid, more customers for the local businesses, a relatiely unused corner of the intersection on the edge of PHS gets put to good use

Negatives - we may lose a building that most of us barely knew existed or took much notice of prior to this proposal

This is why I don't visit the demo thread..... the glass half empty attitude is overwhelming and unfortunately plays into a lot of the negative stereotypes people have of our City.
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Offline StrapHanger

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Re: Cleveland: Campus District
« Reply #81 on: December 04, 2013, 03:49:24 PM »
I certainly knew that building existed and am disappointed to see it go. Not surprised, though, given that our surface lots are probably more valuable than most of the small buildings in our crap real estate market.

Another negative: no storefronts facing Euclid. It's one thing to naively hope for storefronts on the ground floor of every far flung parking garage or whatever, but I'm legitimately surprised the developers aren't proposing any retail space to house complementary commercial tenants for a building housing 500 students. Most of that Euclid frontage could end up being pretty dead unless they plan to put a gym or other high-activity common space on the ground floor there.
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Re: Cleveland: Campus District
« Reply #82 on: December 04, 2013, 04:14:39 PM »
When has it been determined that there are no storefronts on Euclid? I think that was just speculation on this board based on a rendering from far away.

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Re: Cleveland: Campus District
« Reply #83 on: December 04, 2013, 04:21:49 PM »
^This is in the comment section by the writer of the article:

Quote
Hi askajak -

Thanks for commenting. I did ask Rob Lochner about ground-floor retail space. His response was that Clayco is "singularly focused" on the residential experience at this property. He also pointed out that there are vacant storefronts nearby.

That said, I won't be surprised if the question comes up at one of the public meetings this week.

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« Last Edit: December 05, 2013, 01:12:58 AM by metrocity »
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Offline urb-a-saurus

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Re: Cleveland: Campus District
« Reply #84 on: December 04, 2013, 05:12:45 PM »
Today, I drove by something similar under construction in downtown Akron.  Depot Akron, to be ready for next fall.  It is within walking distance of the university and has a similar long, low, full block shape.

Offline yanni_gogolak

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Re: Cleveland: Campus District
« Reply #85 on: December 06, 2013, 08:52:40 AM »
Today, I drove by something similar under construction in downtown Akron.  Depot Akron, to be ready for next fall.  It is within walking distance of the university and has a similar long, low, full block shape.


There is no reason to have retail on the one in Akron now and in the foreseeable future based on location.

As far as the height, 4 stories is as tall as they can go with typical wood framing. Wood framing is used because it is the most affordable.

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Re: Cleveland: Campus District
« Reply #86 on: December 06, 2013, 10:55:07 AM »

Another negative: no storefronts facing Euclid. It's one thing to naively hope for storefronts on the ground floor of every far flung parking garage or whatever, but I'm legitimately surprised the developers aren't proposing any retail space to house complementary commercial tenants for a building housing 500 students. Most of that Euclid frontage could end up being pretty dead unless they plan to put a gym or other high-activity common space on the ground floor there.

I'm surprised and disappointed by this.  This is a substantial development that could serve as a transition/bridge between the campus and PHS.  A large building of this kind could serve as a barrier and not a bridge if it becomes a large 1st floor dead zone, despite the very positive aspect of 500 student residences.   This will be especially true during the substantial periods where CSU is on brake and during the summer when there probably will be few students living in housing...  Let's hope that, since this is just a concept plan at the moment, that with additional comment on this issue developers can "fix" this retail aspect. 

CSU is doing so many things right, and they really have an actual "college town" with foot traffic along Euclid that didn't exist even a year ago... Let's hope they take their time (but not too much time) and get this important project right.
« Last Edit: December 06, 2013, 10:56:20 AM by clvlndr »

Offline ClevelandOhio

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Re: Cleveland: Campus District
« Reply #87 on: December 06, 2013, 11:02:19 AM »
My fear is that retail spaces seem to have trouble getting filled over there, so the developer doesn't want to have to deal with that and rather have residential units in those spaces. More concerning to me is 668 Euclid Avenue. Now THAT is a major 1st floor dead zone in an area where filling retail spaces shouldn't be as hard!

Offline Foraker

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Re: Cleveland: Campus District
« Reply #88 on: December 06, 2013, 11:25:48 AM »
My fear is that retail spaces seem to have trouble getting filled over there, so the developer doesn't want to have to deal with that and rather have residential units in those spaces.

I understand that concern, as well as the other concerns expressed here about activity on the street.  Let's hope the space is designed to accommodate future conversion to street-level retail.

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Re: Cleveland: Campus District
« Reply #89 on: December 06, 2013, 11:54:36 AM »
Clayco student-housing plan for former Jewish Federation site needs design revisions, boards say


http://www.cleveland.com/business/index.ssf/2013/12/clayco_student-housing_plan_fo.html#incart_river_default

Offline SixthCity

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Re: Cleveland: Campus District
« Reply #90 on: December 06, 2013, 12:02:14 PM »
Clayco student-housing plan for former Jewish Federation site needs design revisions, boards say


http://www.cleveland.com/business/index.ssf/2013/12/clayco_student-housing_plan_fo.html#incart_river_default

Weird that there was no mention of the Playhouse Square Building?
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Re: Cleveland: Campus District
« Reply #91 on: December 06, 2013, 12:43:13 PM »
Weird that there was no mention of the Playhouse Square Building?

Seems like they have no issue with demolishing both buildings, but want a proper development put in their place. I agree with the planning commission in this case. I would rather they save the Rogers (Playhouse Square) building, but high quality mid-rise in its place is a decent compromise.

Quote
During meetings on Thursday and Friday mornings, board members offered little resistance to Clayco Realty Group's plans to demolish the buildings, including the federation's former headquarters at 1750 Euclid Ave.

Quote
Various public proposals fell through. And real estate brokers pointed out that the federation building and the neighboring Playhouse Square Building, a 1920s structure also known as the Rogers building, needed major infrastructure investments and would be difficult to adapt for modern offices or multiple tenants.

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Re: Cleveland: Campus District
« Reply #92 on: December 06, 2013, 12:55:20 PM »
My fear is that retail spaces seem to have trouble getting filled over there, so the developer doesn't want to have to deal with that and rather have residential units in those spaces. More concerning to me is 668 Euclid Avenue. Now THAT is a major 1st floor dead zone in an area where filling retail spaces shouldn't be as hard!

I hear what you're saying... Filling 668 has been slow, no doubt, but I thought they did get that Environment 4 Business (IIRC) firm as well as the Potbelly's sandwich shop  on the corner... I guess I'd rather the retail space be built in, even if it sits empty for a while -- yes, I know Clayco is resisting this, but businesses and/or restaurants will eventually come. I'm not a huge fan of pop-up businesses, but at least they keep a space active... Having no space at all makes a permanent wall...
« Last Edit: December 06, 2013, 01:08:46 PM by clvlndr »

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Re: Cleveland: Campus District
« Reply #93 on: December 06, 2013, 01:40:52 PM »
I think you two are talking about different buildings. The ground floor space at 515 Euclid is full thanks to Potbelly opening last year. I don't think 668 Euclid is actually available to lease. The Prospect side is mostly full. The Euclid side is just a lobby. I thought I saw a small office or something adjacent to the lobby but nothing else.

Not all store fronts are the same. Just because others are empty doesn't mean this would be too. It's a new space with a built in audience. And a growing neighborhood right next door. Keep in mind this new building is practically next door to the Keith building and Playhouse Square.

Offline KJP

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Re: Cleveland: Campus District
« Reply #94 on: December 06, 2013, 01:52:11 PM »
Except for lunch hours, I think the area near 668 Euclid has less pedestrian traffic than East 18th and Euclid. I would think East 18th/Euclid warrants some new ground-floor mixed use. What does that area lack retail-wise or service-wise?
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Offline Hts121

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Re: Cleveland: Campus District
« Reply #95 on: December 06, 2013, 01:57:32 PM »
All of the storefronts between 18th and 21st.... are they back up to full capacity?  I seem to remember that we lost some businesses there when the Euclid Corridor was under construction.  Is the deli still there?  That place always seemed popular, at least moreso than the Giro place

As for what would work at this property, I would guess those businesses which cater towards the college aged crowd moreso than theatre goers.  A convenience store or CVS/Wallgreens/RiteAid would probably do well, as would any fast-food joint or sandwich/pizza shop.  A coffee shop, perhaps.  I doubt any botique/independent style retailer would survive very long.
« Last Edit: December 06, 2013, 01:59:18 PM by Hts121 »
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Offline Whipjacka

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Re: Cleveland: Campus District
« Reply #96 on: December 06, 2013, 03:10:34 PM »
I think there needs to be a hard-line position that any private construction on euclid must include space for retail.  At least from public square to the highway.
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Offline SixthCity

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Re: Cleveland: Campus District
« Reply #97 on: December 06, 2013, 04:21:32 PM »
Doesn't the market determine whether there can be ground floor retail?  I am all for street level store fronts but merely building them doesn't put tenants in.  By the looks of it, this is not Clayco's first look at a spreadsheet.  If we still have vacancies along Euclid, why would we build more space we can't fill?

When more people move downtown it will become profitable to build out a storefront...and so they will.  These guys are developers - they exist to make money.
« Last Edit: December 06, 2013, 04:24:26 PM by SixthCity »
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Re: Cleveland: Campus District
« Reply #98 on: December 06, 2013, 04:46:19 PM »
@sixthcity, that is true that developers exist to make money. And for that reason, they will tend to create utilitarian, single-use developments. They are cheap to build and easier to manage. It is the role of public agencies to ensure that what they build meets other needs as well--the vibrancy of the street, etc. That means balancing the needs of the developer with the needs of the community. If the development can still be profitable--just slightly less profitable--and inclusive of a few first-floor retail spaces, then we should require it. On the flip side, if a developer came with a proposal for a gas station (which could probably be extremely profitable), the commission would deny it because it doesn't suit the public interest.

Also, just because there are vacancies along Euclid does not necessarily mean retail doesn't work there. In Columbus, for instance, there are a number of vacancies along high street, but it is because none of these vacancies are in updated, modern spaces. I have spoken with downtown people here that have said they could fill numerous spots if there were appropriately sized, new spaces along High Street. There may just be a mismatch on Euclid Avenue as well (I don't know, just surmising).

Offline StrapHanger

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Re: Cleveland: Campus District
« Reply #99 on: December 06, 2013, 05:09:53 PM »
How many vacancies are there on Euclid between 18th and the Innerbelt?  Honest question.
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Offline SixthCity

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Re: Cleveland: Campus District
« Reply #100 on: December 06, 2013, 05:35:02 PM »
@sixthcity, that is true that developers exist to make money. And for that reason, they will tend to create utilitarian, single-use developments. They are cheap to build and easier to manage. It is the role of public agencies to ensure that what they build meets other needs as well--the vibrancy of the street, etc. That means balancing the needs of the developer with the needs of the community. If the development can still be profitable--just slightly less profitable--and inclusive of a few first-floor retail spaces, then we should require it. On the flip side, if a developer came with a proposal for a gas station (which could probably be extremely profitable), the commission would deny it because it doesn't suit the public interest.

Also, just because there are vacancies along Euclid does not necessarily mean retail doesn't work there. In Columbus, for instance, there are a number of vacancies along high street, but it is because none of these vacancies are in updated, modern spaces. I have spoken with downtown people here that have said they could fill numerous spots if there were appropriately sized, new spaces along High Street. There may just be a mismatch on Euclid Avenue as well (I don't know, just surmising).

Behhhhhhhhhh - I have to disagree with the "they will tend to create utilitarian, single-use developments. They are cheap to build and easier to manage."  part.  Retail space rents for multiples more than residential space per square foot and having a commercial tenant lease can be a cash cow for the developer.  That argument may work in low density areas where land uses can't easily coexist (single family homes) but not in the city.  Just about every building in the City is built with ground floor retail for exactly that reason - it made financial sense.  Mixed use buildings weren't created for a civic purpose, they were products of dudes trying to make money from real estate.

As to you're second point I don't have to go further than the empty ground floor in the 668 building, the BF Keith, the old Cousin's Cigar store and even the Langston (if I'm not mistaken).  All new/renovated space and all empty.  Once again, I would LOVE to have something in every storefront but love doesn't change numbers (I've tried).

I guess it would be a compelling reason to make Clayco build ground floor retail in hopes that it would lower the build out costs once the market comes to support more retail.  In fact, I like that logic the more I think about it. 
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Re: Cleveland: Campus District
« Reply #101 on: December 06, 2013, 05:55:56 PM »
Hi there -

The Playhouse Square Building was mentioned at the meetings this week. I just didn't have a good place to get into that subject in the story, and most of the (very limited) concerns I've heard about the demolition center on the old federation headquarters.

A city employee from the Housing Development Office spoke at design review and at planning commission about two things: 1. Saving the Playhouse Square Building and potentially incorporating it, or part of it, into a new development (such as lofts for professors or something like that). 2. Incorporating retail into the parking garage on Prospect, to help bring more activity to a street where there's a lot of parking.

The Cleveland Restoration Society speaker focused on the headquarters building and didn't have a position on the Playhouse Square Building.

On a separate note, I think there might be some confusion about the first floor of the 668 Euclid building. On the Euclid side, Wyse advertising occupies most of the ground-floor space. That's why it looks sort of dead -- it's offices. K&D also had to go through some after-the-fact machinations with window-screening inside, to satisfy the state historic preservation office. That's why you can't really see a lot of activity from the street.

The remaining Euclid frontage is a lobby entrance for the apartments and offices. The retail storefronts for that building are really on Prospect.

Michelle
« Last Edit: December 06, 2013, 05:56:22 PM by mjarboe »
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Re: Cleveland: Campus District
« Reply #102 on: December 06, 2013, 06:42:27 PM »
As to you're second point I don't have to go further than the empty ground floor in the 668 building, the BF Keith, the old Cousin's Cigar store and even the Langston (if I'm not mistaken).  All new/renovated space and all empty.  Once again, I would LOVE to have something in every storefront but love doesn't change numbers (I've tried).

I guess it would be a compelling reason to make Clayco build ground floor retail in hopes that it would lower the build out costs once the market comes to support more retail.  In fact, I like that logic the more I think about it. 

So that's one vacant storefront on Euclid between 18th and the freeway in an older building (Cousin's Cigar,) and they were evicted because CSU is planning to move administrative offices for NEOMED and a health clinic there (plus the whole smoke-free campus thing.)  Doesn't sound too shabby to me.

Even so, the presence of one or even several vacant storefronts doesn't necessarily mean we can't accommodate more.  With the way CSU is growing, we need to anticipate future demand and not just focus on the current conditions (which aren't bad to begin with anyway.)
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Re: Cleveland: Campus District
« Reply #103 on: December 06, 2013, 06:44:47 PM »
I think you two are talking about different buildings. The ground floor space at 515 Euclid is full thanks to Potbelly opening last year. I don't think 668 Euclid is actually available to lease. The Prospect side is mostly full. The Euclid side is just a lobby. I thought I saw a small office or something adjacent to the lobby but nothing else.

Not all store fronts are the same. Just because others are empty doesn't mean this would be too. It's a new space with a built in audience. And a growing neighborhood right next door. Keep in mind this new building is practically next door to the Keith building and Playhouse Square.
You're sooooo right, I am thinking of a different spot all together... That's the trouble buildings as numbers... oh well.
« Last Edit: December 06, 2013, 06:46:31 PM by clvlndr »

Offline ClevelandOhio

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Re: Cleveland: Campus District
« Reply #104 on: December 06, 2013, 08:03:43 PM »
All of the storefronts between 18th and 21st.... are they back up to full capacity?  I seem to remember that we lost some businesses there when the Euclid Corridor was under construction.  Is the deli still there?  That place always seemed popular, at least moreso than the Giro place

As for what would work at this property, I would guess those businesses which cater towards the college aged crowd moreso than theatre goers.  A convenience store or CVS/Wallgreens/RiteAid would probably do well, as would any fast-food joint or sandwich/pizza shop.  A coffee shop, perhaps.  I doubt any botique/independent style retailer would survive very long.

There is that convenience store/grocery store there, a jimmy johns, subway, and the relocated rascal house. Bar uno in the student center.

Playhouse square has a lot of vacancies/ poorly used first floor retail space too so I doubt there is much need for over there.

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