Author Topic: Cleveland: Campus District  (Read 111014 times)

0 Members and 2 Guests are viewing this topic.

Offline Cleburger

  • 2717'-Burj Khalifa
  • **********
  • Posts: 3529
Re: Cleveland: Campus District
« Reply #140 on: October 05, 2014, 08:11:02 PM »
Good news here!

"Construction is set to begin in March on the corridor from Cleveland's Main Post Office on Orange Avenue to CSU's Rhodes Tower at Euclid Avenue. The work should be done by November 2015.

While finishing details are in flux, planners have already decided on major roadway changes."

http://www.cleveland.com/metro/index.ssf/2014/09/east_22nd_street_redesign_fina.html#incart_river

Great news--long overdue!
I got some records from World War II
I play 'em just like me grand dad do
He was a rocker and I am too....Now Cleveland rocks....

Offline KJP

  • Premium Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 37526
  • Rebuilding the cities that built America.
    • All Aboard Ohio
Re: Cleveland: Campus District
« Reply #141 on: October 31, 2014, 05:36:05 PM »
Cuyahoga County is close to selling vacant juvenile center
By JAY MILLER
October 31, 2014 9:37 AM

Cuyahoga County plans to sell the former Juvenile Court building to a nonprofit that hopes to convert the 83-year-old building into a charter school.

The FitzGerald administration is seeking a resolution of support from County Council to award a lease with the option to purchase the vacant juvenile complex at 2210 Cedar Ave. to an affiliate of Campus District Inc., the community development nonprofit that serves the area east of downtown from Lake Erie to Cuyahoga Community College.

East 22 Redevelopment LLC would lease the property from the county at $1 per month for 24 months with the option to purchase the property for $350,000 at the end of the first year. The option sale price would increase by $10,000 a month after that first year.

READ MORE AT:
http://www.crainscleveland.com/article/20141031/FREE/141039945
"Greater Cleveland is last in the country in number of jobs accessible in typical commute distance, creating a huge drag on economy and more air & water pollution."-- Vibrant NEO

Offline sky

  • 468'-Scripps Center
  • ***
  • Posts: 281
Re: Cleveland: Campus District
« Reply #142 on: November 06, 2014, 09:19:13 AM »
New Campus International School will open in 2016 on Cleveland State University's campus

http://www.cleveland.com/metro/index.ssf/2014/11/new_campus_international_schoo_2.html#incart_river


Offline KJP

  • Premium Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 37526
  • Rebuilding the cities that built America.
    • All Aboard Ohio
Re: Cleveland: Campus District
« Reply #143 on: November 30, 2014, 10:38:54 AM »
I still have a hard time with this being in the Campus District, but it is....

Superior Avenue portfolio sees ownership change; ArtCraft Building first to be renovated
By Michelle Jarboe McFee, The Plain Dealer

CLEVELAND, Ohio -- An ownership shift on Cleveland's Superior Avenue could lead to large investments in existing buildings - and longer-term development prospects - along one of the major corridors leading into downtown.
Global X, a company that specializes in tax credits and other real estate financing tools, recently acquired a stake in a cluster of buildings, land and parking lots just east of the central business district. The quiet deal gives Global X a significant say over what will happen north and south of Superior between East 22nd Street and the Inner Belt

http://www.cleveland.com/business/index.ssf/2014/11/superior_avenue_portfolio_sees.html#incart_river

Artcraft, other downtown spots will get needed work
By STAN BULLARD
Originally Published: November 29, 2014 4:30 AM  Modified: November 29, 2014 9:10 AM

The Roy Group, the longtime owner of the Artcraft Building and other downtown Cleveland properties, has formed a joint venture with principals of the Global X tax credit consulting firm that is expected to inject new life and capital in the building and surrounding neighborhood.

Through 2530 Superior Ave. LLC, five principals of Global X have made an investment that gives them an ability to make changes in the buildings and make a larger investment in the future as it solidifies its plans.

Timm Judson, managing member of 2530 Superior and a Global X principal, said the primary focus is the Artcraft Building, 2530 Superior, which the group is discussing updating with Bruce Madorsky, a principal of Roy.

MORE:
http://www.crainscleveland.com/article/20141129/SUB1/311309993/artcraft-other-downtown-spots-will-get-needed-work
"Greater Cleveland is last in the country in number of jobs accessible in typical commute distance, creating a huge drag on economy and more air & water pollution."-- Vibrant NEO

Offline KJP

  • Premium Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 37526
  • Rebuilding the cities that built America.
    • All Aboard Ohio
Re: Cleveland: Campus District
« Reply #144 on: December 09, 2014, 09:20:56 AM »
I wonder what Geis would do with this.  I've been in here and it's kind of a dump.  Also, not great location.

Cuyahoga County could sell Whitlatch Building to Geis Cos. for $600,000

CLEVELAND, Ohio -- The administration of Cuyahoga County Executive Ed FitzGerald proposes to sell a downtown building for $1.1 million less than what the county paid for it almost 25 years ago.

The deal involves the Whitlatch building, 1910 Carnegie Ave., which the county bought for $1.7 million in 1990. The FitzGerald administration now proposes to sell the building for $600,000.


http://www.cleveland.com/cuyahoga-county/index.ssf/2014/12/cuyahoga_county_could_sell_whitlatch_building_to_geis_co_for_600000.html#incart_river

Edit: I don't know what Ed did, exactly, to piss off the Plain Dealer, but the first two paragraphs don't exactly set him or the sale in a positive light

Ed ran against their boy. The GOP has taken over Ohio's major newspapers.

These articles and discussion would probably be better for the Campus District thread....

Geis Cos. surfaces as potential buyer for county-owned Whitlatch Building
By STAN BULLARD
December 08, 2014 3:03 PM

The Geis brothers still have an appetite for more Cuyahoga County-owned property in downtown Cleveland, even after buying the former Ameritrust Corp. skyscraper from the county.

Cuyahoga County Council’s agenda for its Tuesday, Dec. 9, meeting includes a proposal to sell the county-owned Whitlatch Building, 1910 Carnegie Ave. to GB at 1910 LLC, which refers to the buyer as “Geis” on second reference. The council is scheduled to discuss a proposal from the FitzGerald administration to sell the building at its committee of the whole meeting beginning at 3 p.m. today, Monday, Dec. 8.

The Whitlatch is one of multiple county-owned buildings the county wants to shed after consolidating many of its operations at a new county building at East Ninth Street and Prospect Avenue that Geis constructed and leased to the county. CBRE Group has been managing the headquarters consolidation and property disposition process for the county.

READ MORE AT:
http://www.crainscleveland.com/article/20141208/FREE/141209840/geis-cos-surfaces-as-potential-buyer-for-county-owned-whitlatch
"Greater Cleveland is last in the country in number of jobs accessible in typical commute distance, creating a huge drag on economy and more air & water pollution."-- Vibrant NEO

Offline JG

  • 555'-LeVeque Tower
  • ***
  • Posts: 355
Re: Cleveland: Campus District
« Reply #145 on: December 10, 2014, 10:48:20 AM »
Geis plans single-tenant office revamp of Whitlatch Building, if Cuyahoga County OKs $600,000 sale

CLEVELAND, Ohio -- Developer brothers Fred and Greg Geis aim to continue their downtown Cleveland buying spree with the purchase of the Whitlatch Building, a Carnegie Avenue property that could be repositioned for a single office user.

Cuyahoga County is considering a sale of the 33,400-square-foot building, which is largely vacant, to an affiliate of the Geis Cos. of Streetsboro. In an interview Tuesday, Fred Geis said he'll pitch the 1960s structure to tenants interested in having an entire building to themselves and a high-profile perch near Interstate 90.

http://www.cleveland.com/business/index.ssf/2014/12/geis_plans_single-tenant_offic.html#incart_river

Offline KJP

  • Premium Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 37526
  • Rebuilding the cities that built America.
    • All Aboard Ohio
Re: Cleveland: Campus District
« Reply #146 on: December 10, 2014, 11:31:22 AM »
Interesting! I doubt he'd buy the building without having a potential tenant in mind, especially as Geis separately pursues a 300,000 sf Euclid Avenue office development on spec (without an anchor tenant or two ID'd).
"Greater Cleveland is last in the country in number of jobs accessible in typical commute distance, creating a huge drag on economy and more air & water pollution."-- Vibrant NEO

Offline KJP

  • Premium Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 37526
  • Rebuilding the cities that built America.
    • All Aboard Ohio
Re: Cleveland: Campus District
« Reply #147 on: December 23, 2014, 11:49:43 AM »
School board puts Campus International School construction on the fast track: Favoritism for downtown "elites"?
By Patrick O'Donnell, The Plain Dealer
on December 17, 2014 at 9:01 AM, updated December 17, 2014 at 9:12 AM

CLEVELAND, Ohio - The Cleveland school board put building a new home for the Campus International School on a fast track Tuesday night, leapfrogging other schools in construction plans and drawing complaints that the board is favoring "elite" downtown interests.

The board voted Tuesday to ask the state for money to help build a new $22 million building for the popular downtown school right now.

That's well ahead of the schedule for all other construction projects using the $200 million in Issue 4 bonds that voters passed in November. The district plans community meetings early next year about breaking those other schools into construction phases.

MORE:
http://www.cleveland.com/metro/index.ssf/2014/12/school_board_fast_tracks_campu.html
"Greater Cleveland is last in the country in number of jobs accessible in typical commute distance, creating a huge drag on economy and more air & water pollution."-- Vibrant NEO

Online freethink

  • 1450'-Willis Tower
  • *********
  • Posts: 1907
Re: Cleveland: Campus District
« Reply #148 on: January 08, 2015, 09:37:58 AM »
Firm buys former City Blue Building near CSU for apartment conversion  By STAN BULLARD
Woda Group plans to convert the five-story building at 1937 Prospect Ave. into luxury lofts in an estimated $14 million project.

http://www.crainscleveland.com/article/20150108/FREE/150109918/columbus-firm-buys-former-city-blue-building-near-csu-for-apartment
« Last Edit: January 08, 2015, 09:38:49 AM by freethink »
live small  dream big

Offline JG

  • 555'-LeVeque Tower
  • ***
  • Posts: 355
Re: Cleveland: Campus District
« Reply #149 on: January 08, 2015, 11:29:24 AM »
40 units in a $14M conversion, I would think this would be difficult to generate enough cashflow to cover the debt.  Maybe they are expecting a lot of money from tax credits.  Anyway, good news for the area!

Where does the Jewish Federation building project stand?  We haven't heard any updates on that project in a while it seems.

Offline MuRrAy HiLL

  • 2717'-Burj Khalifa
  • **********
  • Posts: 5097
Re: Cleveland: Campus District
« Reply #150 on: January 09, 2015, 10:39:51 AM »
Whoa, I missed this with all the nuCLEus excitement.  40 more residential units Downtown coming from investors outside of Cleveland...not bad, not bad at all. 
“Make no little plans; they have no magic to stir men's blood. " -- Daniel Burnham

Offline StrapHanger

  • 2717'-Burj Khalifa
  • **********
  • Posts: 7554
Re: Cleveland: Campus District
« Reply #151 on: January 09, 2015, 04:51:37 PM »
40 units in a $14M conversion, I would think this would be difficult to generate enough cashflow to cover the debt.  Maybe they are expecting a lot of money from tax credits.  Anyway, good news for the area!

Where does the Jewish Federation building project stand?  We haven't heard any updates on that project in a while it seems.

A little more detail here: http://www.cleveland.com/business/index.ssf/2015/01/city_blue_apartments_deal_is_f.html#incart_river
Including:

Joseph McCabe, the company's vice president of development, said he envisions spacious apartments - most of them with two bedrooms - that might appeal to Cleveland State University faculty or suburban homeowners who want to become renters and move into the city.

which, along with the preservation credits, helps explain the high construction cost per unit.
"Cleveland, as you see, is not an apple, but a bunch of grapes each of which has its own particular pattern-some large, others small, some round, others long and narrow, some sweet, others sour, some sound, others rotten throughout."  -Howard Whipple Green, 1932

Offline KJP

  • Premium Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 37526
  • Rebuilding the cities that built America.
    • All Aboard Ohio
Re: Cleveland: Campus District
« Reply #152 on: January 14, 2015, 12:30:43 AM »
Haven't heard from these guys in a while. Glad to see their project still has a pulse....

http://planning.city.cleveland.oh.us/designreview/drcagenda/2015/01162015/DRC2015_1_15.pdf

Downtown/Flats
Design Review Agenda
Thursday January 15th, 2015
Cleveland City Hall
Room 514

*Schematic Design Approval
2. Project: DF2013-092 1750 Euclid Student Housing-Parking Garage
Project Address: 1750 Euclid Avenue
Project Representative: Rob Lochner & Robert Neely, Forum Studios/Clayco

*Denotes agenda item will also appear before the Cleveland City Planning Commission the
following day, Friday, January 16th, 2015.

EDIT: I wonder if the progress listed above means that they found someone to buy the development after its built, and can now move forward?

 
So this must be what is holding up 1750 Euclid. I don't think we knew this.
http://cilistings.listinglab.com//1750Euclid/index.cfm?

Clayco, Inc. dba Clayco Realty Group is looking for a purchaser that will, prior to construction, commit to purchase this development upon its completion.
The offered purchase price is based on a 6.5% cap rate using the projected Year 1 NOI from the development, resulting in a purchase price of $54,650,000.
Construction is expected to begin 1st quarter 2015 at which point a firm contract to purchase the development is needed subject only to sellers obligation to construct a completed development.  Construction will be completed in 2nd quarter 2016 and the sale closing should occur not later than 90 days after the commencement of the 2016 fall semester of Cleveland State University.



These are old and may have changed to meet a potential buyer's demands:



« Last Edit: January 14, 2015, 01:02:51 AM by KJP »
"Greater Cleveland is last in the country in number of jobs accessible in typical commute distance, creating a huge drag on economy and more air & water pollution."-- Vibrant NEO

Online Clefan98

  • 947'-Key Tower
  • ********
  • Posts: 1440
Re: Cleveland: Campus District
« Reply #153 on: January 15, 2015, 09:09:15 AM »
Here's the revised design

Offline andrew0816

  • Premium Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1162
Re: Cleveland: Campus District
« Reply #154 on: January 15, 2015, 09:12:57 AM »
I think the building is fine,  but I do not like how they are situating the parking. I prefer the old design.

Offline YO to the CLE

  • 408'-Kettering Tower
  • **
  • Posts: 198
Re: Cleveland: Campus District
« Reply #155 on: January 15, 2015, 09:37:54 AM »
Love the building and the added height! Can't really tell from the pic whats going on with the parking? Are there any others where that one came from?

Online w28th

  • 1450'-Willis Tower
  • *********
  • Posts: 1690
Re: Cleveland: Campus District
« Reply #156 on: January 15, 2015, 09:42:38 AM »
Great, another parking deck/surface parking lot facing Prospect.
"When you stand at the corner of Euclid Avenue and East Ninth Street in Cleveland, you stand at one of the busiest corners in the world -- and in the heart of a shopping district known far and wide for its many fine shops."

Offline jmicha

  • 2717'-Burj Khalifa
  • **********
  • Posts: 3667
Re: Cleveland: Campus District
« Reply #157 on: January 15, 2015, 09:43:24 AM »
It appears there's a ramp on the left side of the building where the original plan called for a continuation of the building. Not preferable to have a ramp right next to the sidewalk if I'm indeed correct when looking at that rendering.

Offline andrew0816

  • Premium Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1162
Re: Cleveland: Campus District
« Reply #158 on: January 15, 2015, 09:47:43 AM »
There are more renderings/site plans on CPC website but below is what I'm referring to. It's actually structured parking that only get's them like 40 more spaces than a surface lot.



« Last Edit: January 15, 2015, 09:55:17 AM by andrew0816 »

Offline KJP

  • Premium Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 37526
  • Rebuilding the cities that built America.
    • All Aboard Ohio
Re: Cleveland: Campus District
« Reply #159 on: January 15, 2015, 09:55:30 AM »
Love the added height but I also agree with w28th that it's a shame a parking deck only would front Prospect. It's like Prospect is becoming Euclid's service entrance. Here the difference in site plans....

« Last Edit: January 15, 2015, 09:56:09 AM by KJP »
"Greater Cleveland is last in the country in number of jobs accessible in typical commute distance, creating a huge drag on economy and more air & water pollution."-- Vibrant NEO

Offline gotribe

  • 2717'-Burj Khalifa
  • **********
  • Posts: 2045
Re: Cleveland: Campus District
« Reply #160 on: January 15, 2015, 09:55:58 AM »
Great, another parking deck/surface parking lot facing Prospect.
I feel your pain there...

Not to crazy about the building either.  I like the height, and what it replaces, but it kind of reminds me of an 80's office park structure.  Similar to Summit Office buildings on Rockside in Independence.  Can't say student housing really pushes the envelope on design however.   That could be said for most colleges. 

Offline SixthCity

  • 1450'-Willis Tower
  • *********
  • Posts: 1512
Re: Cleveland: Campus District
« Reply #161 on: January 15, 2015, 10:02:40 AM »
Man that facade is fugly.  Not thrilled about the Prospect side either - that was our shot to make a surface lot go vertical in a meaningful way.  That chance may not come around for a long time.

Anyways, did anyone else notice this?




The second photo has some kind of ghostly placeholders for the adjacent properties.  Maybe it's nothing or maybe the developer has a little extra info about the future of those sites.
"A MONUMENT CONCEIVED AS A TRIBUTE TO THE IDEALS OF CLEVELAND, BUILDED BY HER CITIZENS AND DEDICATED TO SOCIAL PROGRESS, INDUSTRIAL ACHIEVEMENTS AND CIVIC INTEREST"

Offline andrew0816

  • Premium Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1162
Re: Cleveland: Campus District
« Reply #162 on: January 15, 2015, 10:07:55 AM »
@SixthCity I did not notice that. I wonder if they do know something we don't.

And agreed, I don't like the idea of continuing to have prospect act as a parking lot access route. And with that new Woda project on Prospect, there is clearly potential for that street to become something different.

Offline Urbanophile

  • 665'-Queen City Square
  • ******
  • Posts: 856
Re: Cleveland: Campus District
« Reply #163 on: January 15, 2015, 10:17:04 AM »
I've been hearing rumblings about the lot at Euclid and East 17th. I'm surprised to see that other building at the Comfort Inn site. I would love to see that building come down!

Offline gotribe

  • 2717'-Burj Khalifa
  • **********
  • Posts: 2045
Re: Cleveland: Campus District
« Reply #164 on: January 15, 2015, 10:19:15 AM »
^I did notice that.  The Phantom of the Opera reference on the one building also lead me to believe that they are in planning stages being that this is playhouse square.  Part of me, for some strange reason, has always liked the Comfort Inn building though.  It is so not Cleveland, and brings a neat dynamic to the street. 
« Last Edit: January 15, 2015, 10:19:32 AM by gotribe »

Online Hts121

  • UO Supporting Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 17663
  • It's still just like your opinion, man
Re: Cleveland: Campus District
« Reply #165 on: January 15, 2015, 10:50:46 AM »
I agree.  I like the hotel.  And it has some historical value..... perhaps a bit overstated in "Almost Famous", but value nonetheless.
Your true friends will help you up when someone knocks you down.  Your best friend will say "Stay down, I got this."

Online Mendo

  • 771'-Terminal Tower
  • *******
  • Posts: 1039
Re: Cleveland: Campus District
« Reply #166 on: January 15, 2015, 11:35:01 AM »
The height and massing along Euclid is great. Total 121 feet over 11 floors with 10 foot floor plates above the ground level is decent for just student housing. Hell, even the new Hilton only has 9 foot floor plates for the hotel rooms.

Yeah, that garage along Prospect is terrible. I would rather they leave it a surface lot.
« Last Edit: January 15, 2015, 11:38:29 AM by Mendo »

Online musky

  • SPRAWL KILLS !!!
  • 2717'-Burj Khalifa
  • **********
  • Posts: 3512
  • Where there is no vision, the people perish.
    • Cleveland vs. The World
Re: Cleveland: Campus District
« Reply #167 on: January 15, 2015, 11:44:48 AM »
I agree.  I like the hotel.  And it has some historical value..... perhaps a bit overstated in "Almost Famous", but value nonetheless.


Ahhh, the old Swingo's: Led Zeppelin, Frank Sinatra, Elvis Presley, Yul Brenner....  soooo many other rock icons - they all stayed and partied there.

"The world's most rock'n'roll hotels"

"Rock 'n' Roll Hotels for a New Generation"

There's supposed to be a documentary in the works about that place:
"River Valley Films producing documentary on Cleveland's famed Swingos hotel"

Yeah... my vote is to leave it right where it is at (with some fixing up, of course)

« Last Edit: January 15, 2015, 11:45:40 AM by musky »

Offline Cleburger

  • 2717'-Burj Khalifa
  • **********
  • Posts: 3529
Re: Cleveland: Campus District
« Reply #168 on: January 15, 2015, 11:52:51 AM »
I agree.  I like the hotel.  And it has some historical value..... perhaps a bit overstated in "Almost Famous", but value nonetheless.


Ahhh, the old Swingo's: Led Zeppelin, Frank Sinatra, Elvis Presley, Yul Brenner....  soooo many other rock icons - they all stayed and partied there.

"The world's most rock'n'roll hotels"

"Rock 'n' Roll Hotels for a New Generation"

There's supposed to be a documentary in the works about that place:
"River Valley Films producing documentary on Cleveland's famed Swingos hotel"

Yeah... my vote is to leave it right where it is at (with some fixing up, of course)

Would be a great tourist attraction to actually rebrand it Swingos again.  I wonder if  the Rock Hall of Fame can get corporate money behind a hotel famous for decadence?
I got some records from World War II
I play 'em just like me grand dad do
He was a rocker and I am too....Now Cleveland rocks....

Offline Urbanophile

  • 665'-Queen City Square
  • ******
  • Posts: 856
Re: Cleveland: Campus District
« Reply #169 on: January 15, 2015, 11:56:35 AM »
Wow, I had heard of Swingos, but for some reason I never knew it was that building! I assumed it was torn down. Someone needs to buy that building, spruce it up, and rebrand it as Swingos again!

Offline surfohio

  • 2717'-Burj Khalifa
  • **********
  • Posts: 6258
Re: Cleveland: Campus District
« Reply #170 on: January 15, 2015, 11:57:15 AM »
It would be a big mistake, a big missed opportunity imho not to market the former Swingos as an historic boutique hotel.

Offline Johann

  • 279'-First Energy Center
  • *
  • Posts: 28
Re: Cleveland: Campus District
« Reply #171 on: January 15, 2015, 03:08:19 PM »
Stan Bullard mentions the project at the end of this article:
http://www.crainscleveland.com/article/20150115/FREE/150119895/nucleus-project-design-receives-thumbs-up-from-downtown-flats-design

Quote
Designs for an eight-story building with student housing on the site of the former Jewish Community Federation Building at East 18th Street and Euclid Avenue near Cleveland State University did not do as well as the nuCLEus project. Clayco, a St. Louis- and Chicago-based real estate developer, announced plans for the site in January 2014.

Coleman said the committee approved the footprint and massing plan of the student apartments. However, the committee wants to see more detail on the treatments of the building’s exterior before giving it a full schematic approval.

Offline McLovin

  • 1450'-Willis Tower
  • *********
  • Posts: 1504
Re: Cleveland: Campus District
« Reply #172 on: January 15, 2015, 05:13:35 PM »
I'm fine with the shorter height if it means adding density to more than just the Euclid side.

Offline dave68

  • 629'-Rhodes State Tower
  • *****
  • Posts: 724
Re: Cleveland: Campus District
« Reply #173 on: January 16, 2015, 03:02:03 AM »
I played with the dynamics of the design by adding a step up detail to balance to break up the monotony.
« Last Edit: January 16, 2015, 03:05:38 AM by dave68 »

Offline andrew0816

  • Premium Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1162
Re: Cleveland: Campus District
« Reply #174 on: January 16, 2015, 10:42:58 AM »
I'm fine with the shorter height if it means adding density to more than just the Euclid side.
Just got back from the CPC meeting and the developer claims that the previous plan (the one extending from Euclid to Prospect) was more costly than they had anticipated, mainly because of the garage. They also mentioned that the new plan will have more units than the previous one, going from 217 to 237 units (or close to 20 more, he said it really fast). It also seems like the parking structure (not really a garage, more of a glorified surface lot) might not be worth it if zoning code is followed, which would require screening and a buffer resulting in the same number of spaces the current lot has. But they want to pursue a bit more parking to better there chances of getting financing. Not to mention BZA will probably allow it.
« Last Edit: January 16, 2015, 10:44:20 AM by andrew0816 »

Remove Ads