Author Topic: Greater Cleveland RTA News & Discussion  (Read 157245 times)

0 Members and 5 Guests are viewing this topic.

Offline KJP

  • Jeddah Tower 3,281'
  • *****
  • Posts: 50370
  • Rebuilding the cities that built America.
Re: Greater Cleveland RTA News & Discussion
« Reply #12570 on: August 01, 2018, 10:52:45 AM »
^ The issue with a land value tax is that it would require state action.  I do not believe that municipalities or counties can impose such a tax without a referendum.  I might be wrong on this.

I mentioned earlier that our peer cities have much higher hotel taxes.  I think this is the route to go.  Perhaps a countywide hotel tax.  I think this is the most politically feasible route to go.

I think a mix of small tax increases should be applied, including on rental cars, hotels, sales, property, plus the privatization of parking meters/lots and the creation of transit TIF corridors in which there are no minimum parking requirements and a share of any increased tax valuation of land and buildings starting on a future date will go to the transit TIF district to support expanded operations and capital improvements in that corridor.

EDIT: I forgot to put the word "no" before "minimum parking requirements." It would be an incentive to developers to not have to build so much parking and it would reduce the cost of housing by nearly $20,000 per parking space.
« Last Edit: August 01, 2018, 12:47:05 PM by KJP »
"Treat this (November 2018) election as if it's the last election in which you can fully exercise your democratic rights. Because it just might be." -- Margy Waller.

Offline freefourur

  • Jeddah Tower 3,281'
  • *****
  • Posts: 4160
Re: Greater Cleveland RTA News & Discussion
« Reply #12571 on: August 01, 2018, 10:54:37 AM »
^ If only we had some creative people at RTA willing to try to put this together instead of letting the agency whither on the vine.

Offline KJP

  • Jeddah Tower 3,281'
  • *****
  • Posts: 50370
  • Rebuilding the cities that built America.
Re: Greater Cleveland RTA News & Discussion
« Reply #12572 on: August 01, 2018, 12:48:14 PM »
^ If only we had some creative people at RTA willing to try to put this together instead of letting the agency whither on the vine.

There are at the staff level, but the board is scared of making mistakes (doesn't exactly lead to innovation) and unaware. It wasn't until recently that they knew they were a taxing authority and could place a levy on the ballot themselves. Problem is, the agency has no vision of its future because the GM has put the agency in triage/survival mode for so long. So no one yet knows what a levy would fund except survival/state of good repair.


RTA mulls its options for filling budget hole
http://www.crainscleveland.com/article/20180731/news/170231/rta-mulls-its-options-filling-budget-hole
« Last Edit: August 01, 2018, 12:52:38 PM by KJP »
"Treat this (November 2018) election as if it's the last election in which you can fully exercise your democratic rights. Because it just might be." -- Margy Waller.

Offline mu2010

  • Burj Khalifa 2,722'
  • *****
  • Posts: 1756
Re: Greater Cleveland RTA News & Discussion
« Reply #12573 on: August 01, 2018, 01:49:23 PM »
I love the transit TIF corridors idea, @KJP. That could have been done ten years ago as part of the Euclid Corridor project.

Offline jtadams

  • Metropolitan Tower 224'
  • *
  • Posts: 150
Re: Greater Cleveland RTA News & Discussion
« Reply #12574 on: August 02, 2018, 11:40:31 AM »
Almost every tax in practice is regressive.  It is mainly the already prosperous who write all laws including tax laws.  But transit benefits downtown property owners more than most others, by significantly lowering the cost of commuting downtown, and hence the wages and salaries people are willing to accept in order to work there.  I would like to see some of this benefit captured somehow.  As a libertarian, I believe that if there must be taxes, they should be levied on those who benefit insofar as possible.  But there is one additional consideration.  People not served or benefited by transit are going to be MUCH less likely to support any tax increase that hurts them specifically.  If you're going to levy property *or* sales taxes countywide, or even region-wide, you had better have a plan for making those taxes benefit them as well.  I'm thinking (a) big increase but coupled with (b) big improvements in service, particularly for the 50% who allegedly have a choice and choose to ride RTA anyway.  A hotel, parking, gasoline, or downtown-oriented tax, insofar as these things are possible under Ohio law, is a lot simpler to sell. 

Offline Cleburger

  • Jeddah Tower 3,281'
  • *****
  • Posts: 4589
Re: Greater Cleveland RTA News & Discussion
« Reply #12575 on: August 02, 2018, 02:47:22 PM »
I received a link from Clevelanders for Public Transit to write all the board members of RTA, etc. 

https://actionnetwork.org/letters/transit-levy-now?delivery_id=30185268

As an aside, how do we end up with Dennis Clough from Westlake as the President of the Board of our transit agency?


Offline cfdwarrior

  • Dirt Lot 0'
  • *
  • Posts: 42
Re: Greater Cleveland RTA News & Discussion
« Reply #12576 on: August 06, 2018, 10:05:05 AM »
A quote from a Charlotte business article..."Ron Tober, who started Charlotte Area Transit System in 1999, applauds current CEO John Lewis for taking an aggressive approach for building three additional rail lines in the near future."   
« Last Edit: August 06, 2018, 02:42:40 PM by cfdwarrior »

Offline KJP

  • Jeddah Tower 3,281'
  • *****
  • Posts: 50370
  • Rebuilding the cities that built America.
Re: Greater Cleveland RTA News & Discussion
« Reply #12577 on: August 06, 2018, 10:16:22 AM »
A quite from a Charlotte business article..."Ron Tober, who started Charlotte Area Transit System in 1999, applauds current CEO John Lewis for taking an aggressive approach for building three additional rail lines in the near future."   

A growing taxbase is a wonderful thing. GCRTA can ask taxpayers to expand its taxbase or continue to accept a life of scarcity by living within its shrinking means.
"Treat this (November 2018) election as if it's the last election in which you can fully exercise your democratic rights. Because it just might be." -- Margy Waller.

Offline yossarian

  • Excavation Site
  • *
  • Posts: 4
Re: Greater Cleveland RTA News & Discussion
« Reply #12578 on: August 06, 2018, 09:48:49 PM »
Sorry if this derails (pun intended) the ongoing discussion a bit. I wanted to run some data by this thread to see if there's any good explanation for a trend I noticed. I recently looked at some Google transit feed datasets for GCRTA to count trip frequency change over the last decade. It appears system-wide trips have gone down a bit since 2009, as expected. However, if you isolate only light/heavy rail trips, it looks like trip frequency for rail stations has gone up in the last decade by several percent. Nothing dramatic, but not insubstantial.
Is there any good reason why this happened? Has rail service in fact slightly increased in the last decade? Is it the Little Italy Station? I can't tell if this is a result of an analysis error, or, in fact, makes sense.


Offline Mov2Ohio

  • Jeddah Tower 3,281'
  • *****
  • Posts: 2347
Re: Greater Cleveland RTA News & Discussion
« Reply #12579 on: August 07, 2018, 07:32:50 AM »
Sorry if this derails (pun intended) the ongoing discussion a bit. I wanted to run some data by this thread to see if there's any good explanation for a trend I noticed. I recently looked at some Google transit feed datasets for GCRTA to count trip frequency change over the last decade. It appears system-wide trips have gone down a bit since 2009, as expected. However, if you isolate only light/heavy rail trips, it looks like trip frequency for rail stations has gone up in the last decade by several percent. Nothing dramatic, but not insubstantial.
Is there any good reason why this happened? Has rail service in fact slightly increased in the last decade? Is it the Little Italy Station? I can't tell if this is a result of an analysis error, or, in fact, makes sense.



Just my guess, but with all the growth in downtown, Ohio City, and University Circle, I would say it makes sense as those are all neighborhoods served by the heavy rail line. Hasn't been much growth on the light rail lines in that time frame.

Offline Pugu

  • Burj Khalifa 2,722'
  • *****
  • Posts: 1855
Re: Greater Cleveland RTA News & Discussion
« Reply #12580 on: August 07, 2018, 02:35:22 PM »
^Also--probably the biggest factor, RTA terminated a lot of bus lines that ran from the burbs into downtown at rapid stations, forcing the transfer, which increased rapid ridership and let the bus be used for other things or to save operating costs.

Offline yossarian

  • Excavation Site
  • *
  • Posts: 4
Re: Greater Cleveland RTA News & Discussion
« Reply #12581 on: August 07, 2018, 05:20:58 PM »
Hmm. Thank you. One thing I failed to clarify is that this is for trips only. It doesn't reflect ridership at all. So its either new stations or less headway causing it, or both.

Sorry if this derails (pun intended) the ongoing discussion a bit. I wanted to run some data by this thread to see if there's any good explanation for a trend I noticed. I recently looked at some Google transit feed datasets for GCRTA to count trip frequency change over the last decade. It appears system-wide trips have gone down a bit since 2009, as expected. However, if you isolate only light/heavy rail trips, it looks like trip frequency for rail stations has gone up in the last decade by several percent. Nothing dramatic, but not insubstantial.
Is there any good reason why this happened? Has rail service in fact slightly increased in the last decade? Is it the Little Italy Station? I can't tell if this is a result of an analysis error, or, in fact, makes sense.



Just my guess, but with all the growth in downtown, Ohio City, and University Circle, I would say it makes sense as those are all neighborhoods served by the heavy rail line. Hasn't been much growth on the light rail lines in that time frame.

Offline KJP

  • Jeddah Tower 3,281'
  • *****
  • Posts: 50370
  • Rebuilding the cities that built America.
Re: Greater Cleveland RTA News & Discussion
« Reply #12582 on: August 07, 2018, 07:22:42 PM »
^Also--probably the biggest factor, RTA terminated a lot of bus lines that ran from the burbs into downtown at rapid stations, forcing the transfer, which increased rapid ridership and let the bus be used for other things or to save operating costs.

We have a winner!
"Treat this (November 2018) election as if it's the last election in which you can fully exercise your democratic rights. Because it just might be." -- Margy Waller.

Offline jtadams

  • Metropolitan Tower 224'
  • *
  • Posts: 150
Re: Greater Cleveland RTA News & Discussion
« Reply #12583 on: August 10, 2018, 06:54:59 AM »
^Also--probably the biggest factor, RTA terminated a lot of bus lines that ran from the burbs into downtown at rapid stations, forcing the transfer, which increased rapid ridership and let the bus be used for other things or to save operating costs.

We have a winner!

Killing a lot of ridership though, especially suburban, and, very possibly, support within those 'burbs for any kind of tax increase.  Consider the old #25.  It served what is now a thriving neighborhood on Bridge Ave., plus a struggling and now largely deserted one on Madison between 98th and 65th, as well as giving residents of southern Lakewood and Rocky River their only option for a single-seat ride downtown, or less than a double-transfer ride to any point downtown other than Tower City.  Or the #30/39.  I don't mind having to transfer at Windermere aka Stokes except at late night, but even I won't do it at night.   And the 55 minute trip from Shoregate became more than 90, much of it standing room only last time I tried (a year or two ago . . may have gotten better since, or worse).  Some of these mandatory transfers may make sense, but these, among many others, did not.  Keep in mind that there have been safety concerns at many train stations, including West Side ones which were targeted by local gang wannabes a couple years back.  This will deter those who have a choice pretty close to 100% of the time.  Also, I always though the 7. 9. 28. and 32 could have been routed down Chester, making limited stops, rather than Euclid where those and the local #6 always interfered with one another.  (Transferring to the HealthLine back when we had traffic signal priority wasn't a terrible thing, but now that that is gone . . . )  RTA now offers attractive service to the suburbs *only* via the Park & Rides, which I'm told is about the least cost-effective service, besides paratransit, that we have.  I promise you that if you want support from other than the transit-dependent, then, in general, you're going to have to give them a better reason than what they have right now.

Offline mu2010

  • Burj Khalifa 2,722'
  • *****
  • Posts: 1756
Re: Greater Cleveland RTA News & Discussion
« Reply #12584 on: August 10, 2018, 07:19:42 AM »
How quickly could the old #9 or #32 get downtown from their eastern termini?

Offline KJP

  • Jeddah Tower 3,281'
  • *****
  • Posts: 50370
  • Rebuilding the cities that built America.
Re: Greater Cleveland RTA News & Discussion
« Reply #12585 on: August 10, 2018, 08:51:00 AM »
How quickly could the old #9 or #32 get downtown from their eastern termini?

I have old RTA timetables. I will let you know...probably this weekend.
"Treat this (November 2018) election as if it's the last election in which you can fully exercise your democratic rights. Because it just might be." -- Margy Waller.

Offline KJP

  • Jeddah Tower 3,281'
  • *****
  • Posts: 50370
  • Rebuilding the cities that built America.
Re: Greater Cleveland RTA News & Discussion
« Reply #12586 on: August 10, 2018, 04:03:56 PM »
Borrowed from the Tower City thread....

^Could be due to historic preservation issues? Not sure if the complex is bound by any of that but if it is I'm sure that would make signage more complicated.

There could be preservation issues.  But a sign could be placed on the plaza identifying the retail center and transit station.

Is it also problematic that the Terminal Tower and Tower City have different owners but are conjoined? Specifically the Public Square entrance.

But I agree the wayfinding is BAD. I donít think a visitor would know stores, a movie theater or the rapid station lies behind those doors.

RTA should/could benefit from some classic signage.


"Treat this (November 2018) election as if it's the last election in which you can fully exercise your democratic rights. Because it just might be." -- Margy Waller.

Offline KJP

  • Jeddah Tower 3,281'
  • *****
  • Posts: 50370
  • Rebuilding the cities that built America.
Re: Greater Cleveland RTA News & Discussion
« Reply #12587 on: August 10, 2018, 05:36:26 PM »
NTD = National Transit Database

@twkovach

Just pulled the NTD numbers for GCRTA through June.

YTD, GCRTA has had 17.38M riders, down 12.9% compared to June 2017.

Based on previous years, this puts the agency on track to record just 34.98M rides in 2018, an 11.5% decrease (larger than the 10.4% drop last year).
"Treat this (November 2018) election as if it's the last election in which you can fully exercise your democratic rights. Because it just might be." -- Margy Waller.

Offline KJP

  • Jeddah Tower 3,281'
  • *****
  • Posts: 50370
  • Rebuilding the cities that built America.
Re: Greater Cleveland RTA News & Discussion
« Reply #12588 on: August 14, 2018, 09:11:14 PM »
"Treat this (November 2018) election as if it's the last election in which you can fully exercise your democratic rights. Because it just might be." -- Margy Waller.

Offline mu2010

  • Burj Khalifa 2,722'
  • *****
  • Posts: 1756
Re: Greater Cleveland RTA News & Discussion
« Reply #12589 on: August 15, 2018, 05:14:55 PM »
Wanted to share with you guys - I have become a regular rush hour rider of the Waterfront line, believe it or not, and I have been surprised at how many people are on the trains. Today it was particularly crowded.

Offline KJP

  • Jeddah Tower 3,281'
  • *****
  • Posts: 50370
  • Rebuilding the cities that built America.
Re: Greater Cleveland RTA News & Discussion
« Reply #12590 on: August 15, 2018, 05:22:57 PM »
Wanted to share with you guys - I have become a regular rush hour rider of the Waterfront line, believe it or not, and I have been surprised at how many people are on the trains. Today it was particularly crowded.

What, six people?? Just kidding -- how many were on board?
"Treat this (November 2018) election as if it's the last election in which you can fully exercise your democratic rights. Because it just might be." -- Margy Waller.

Offline mu2010

  • Burj Khalifa 2,722'
  • *****
  • Posts: 1756
Re: Greater Cleveland RTA News & Discussion
« Reply #12591 on: August 15, 2018, 05:38:21 PM »
Today, 25-30 on the train. Lots got on with me at E. 9. Many times more like 15 or 20. Not sure what was going on, tourists maybe. Usually 5-10 use E. 9, 5-10 use Flats East, one or two at Settler's. People that work at the EY building are using it, albeit in small #s.
« Last Edit: August 15, 2018, 05:40:36 PM by mu2010 »

Offline jtadams

  • Metropolitan Tower 224'
  • *
  • Posts: 150
Re: Greater Cleveland RTA News & Discussion
« Reply #12592 on: August 16, 2018, 12:45:55 PM »
Today, 25-30 on the train. Lots got on with me at E. 9. Many times more like 15 or 20. Not sure what was going on, tourists maybe. Usually 5-10 use E. 9, 5-10 use Flats East, one or two at Settler's. People that work at the EY building are using it, albeit in small #s.
The only stats I could find (couple years ago) said the Waterfront Line carries a few hundred riders per day.

Lexington Av. line in NYC carries over 50,000 riders EVERY HOUR.  More than a million daily.

I'm not suggesting we abandon the WFL.  I am suggesting we find a way to make it worth *not* abandoning.

Offline KJP

  • Jeddah Tower 3,281'
  • *****
  • Posts: 50370
  • Rebuilding the cities that built America.
Re: Greater Cleveland RTA News & Discussion
« Reply #12593 on: August 16, 2018, 01:17:18 PM »
Let's not compare the Waterfront Line to the Lexington Avenue line, please. Let's compare it to something more relevant, like the rest of the Green/Blue lines.

ID highest and best uses that would add traffic generators to the WFL. Scanning along the WFL, the mind fills in so many voids within a short walk of stations along the route with uses that could generate more interaction with each other via rail. And they all offer views of the river or lake, which real estate developers will tell you is a magical combination. FEB-Phase3 will help, but we need about 10 of them to make a big difference.
"Treat this (November 2018) election as if it's the last election in which you can fully exercise your democratic rights. Because it just might be." -- Margy Waller.

Offline PoshSteve

  • Great American Tower 665'
  • ***
  • Posts: 761
Re: Greater Cleveland RTA News & Discussion
« Reply #12594 on: August 16, 2018, 09:31:09 PM »
With Amazon ready to open up in North Randall next month, I would hope someone at RTA is talking about service extensions to that area (and Euclid to in the near future). With a tax increase likely next year, I would want to see something from them on a meaningful expansion. Common sense looking at a map would call out for Van Aken being turned into some kind of "east suburban transit center". If a Blue Line expansion is off the table with a parking garage supposed to be built to block it in, why not some new BRT lines? Run one down Northfield and have it end at the Rocksino. Another could run down Chagrin before turning south on Richmond. It could end at the industrial area before Cannon, or continue around Cannon (with some improvements to the narrow roadways) and down Harper/Cochran into Solon. They would hit a number of large employers and easily open them up to inner city residents. Side benefits would be boosting Blue Line ridership, and increasing the value in the retail space in Van Aken.

Offline 327

  • Jeddah Tower 3,281'
  • *****
  • Posts: 7221
Re: Greater Cleveland RTA News & Discussion
« Reply #12595 on: Yesterday at 09:06:49 AM »
With Joe C out of the picture, this notion of blocking off the blue line needs to be revisited.

Offline mu2010

  • Burj Khalifa 2,722'
  • *****
  • Posts: 1756
Re: Greater Cleveland RTA News & Discussion
« Reply #12596 on: Yesterday at 09:25:12 AM »
What's this about the parking garage blocking it? The currently existing parking garage at Van Aken district is northeast of the terminus of the tracks, along Warrensville, not blocking expansion. Not sure about future phases.

Offline StapHanger

  • Jeddah Tower 3,281'
  • *****
  • Posts: 8677
Re: Greater Cleveland RTA News & Discussion
« Reply #12597 on: Yesterday at 09:36:30 AM »
^^^As I'm guessing you already know, the Blue Line terminus is already a bit of a hub, with bus service east, to the Chagrin Blvd corridor/Pinecrest; west, serving Mt. Pleasant, the Forgotten Triangle, and Central; North, along Warrensville Road, to University Hts, Cleveland Heights and East Cleveland; and South, along Warrensville to the Amazon project and racino, and then beyond, to Bedford, Glenwillow and Solon. But it's all local service with lousy frequency, so definitely seems ripe for improvements if more money could be injected into RTA.

Online CbusTransit

  • Huntington Tower 330'
  • **
  • Posts: 285
Re: Greater Cleveland RTA News & Discussion
« Reply #12598 on: Yesterday at 09:44:43 AM »
The Northfield-warrensville multimodal connectivity plan addresses some of these issues including transit and trails

You can download it from the Cuyahoga County planning commissions website

Offline KJP

  • Jeddah Tower 3,281'
  • *****
  • Posts: 50370
  • Rebuilding the cities that built America.
Re: Greater Cleveland RTA News & Discussion
« Reply #12599 on: Yesterday at 10:27:49 AM »
What's this about the parking garage blocking it? The currently existing parking garage at Van Aken district is northeast of the terminus of the tracks, along Warrensville, not blocking expansion. Not sure about future phases.

See below. Joe C, how hard was it to tell the developers and the city that you want to reserve a 50-foot-wide right of way from the end of the Blue Line tracks to the NW corner of Chagrin/Warrensville? They wouldn't have thought any more or less of you.
"Treat this (November 2018) election as if it's the last election in which you can fully exercise your democratic rights. Because it just might be." -- Margy Waller.