Author Topic: The Republican Party  (Read 43575 times)

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Offline Ram23

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Re: The Republican Party
« Reply #1110 on: September 13, 2018, 11:45:08 AM »
^ You'd be a bigot if you required or somehow compelled people to undergo such therapy. You're not a bigot because you don't want to ban it. In fact, I'd go so far as to say you are a bigot if you do want to outright ban it.

Offline jonoh81

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Re: The Republican Party
« Reply #1111 on: September 13, 2018, 11:48:29 AM »
Tell us again how conservatives respect facts and science while still pushing debunked, blatantly harmful and discriminatory “therapy”. 

Offline YABO713

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Re: The Republican Party
« Reply #1112 on: September 13, 2018, 11:49:07 AM »
^ You'd be a bigot if you required or somehow compelled people to undergo such therapy. You're not a bigot because you don't want to ban it. In fact, I'd go so far as to say you are a bigot if you do want to outright ban it.

I was with you until that last sentence.

Offline YABO713

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Re: The Republican Party
« Reply #1113 on: September 13, 2018, 11:50:20 AM »
Tell us again how conservatives respect facts and science while still pushing debunked, blatantly harmful and discriminatory “therapy”. 

Pretty simple. About 8-10% of us respect science.

The President just disputed a documented death toll and Conservative leaders are doing nothing - so yeah. We've got no credibility when it comes to respecting science and data.

Offline freefourur

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Re: The Republican Party
« Reply #1114 on: September 13, 2018, 11:53:56 AM »
^ To me the death toll denial is akin to Holocaust denial.  It's the same level of batsh*ttery.

Offline YABO713

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Re: The Republican Party
« Reply #1115 on: September 13, 2018, 11:55:11 AM »
^ To me the death toll denial is akin to Holocaust denial.  It's the same level of batsh*ttery.

Yeah, I just am not comfortable with that analogy. But you're not wrong.

Offline KJP

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Re: The Republican Party
« Reply #1116 on: September 13, 2018, 12:23:08 PM »
"Treat this (November 2018) election as if it's the last election in which you can fully exercise your democratic rights. Because it just might be." -- Margy Waller.

Offline Ram23

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Re: The Republican Party
« Reply #1117 on: September 13, 2018, 12:53:09 PM »
Tell us again how conservatives respect facts and science while still pushing debunked, blatantly harmful and discriminatory “therapy”. 

Conservatives have the utmost respect the hard sciences, but don't give much credence to soft science theories and ideas - particularly ones that are often misrepresented as "facts."

Offline bfwissel

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Re: The Republican Party
« Reply #1118 on: September 13, 2018, 01:04:27 PM »
Tell us again how conservatives respect facts and science while still pushing debunked, blatantly harmful and discriminatory “therapy”. 

Conservatives have the utmost respect the hard sciences, but don't give much credence to soft science theories and ideas - particularly ones that are often misrepresented as "facts."

Could you list what you consider "soft science" so that we can understand what science you consider valid and which you consider invalid?
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Online mu2010

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Re: The Republican Party
« Reply #1119 on: September 13, 2018, 01:52:48 PM »
Any science that tells them something they don't want to hear is soft.
« Last Edit: September 13, 2018, 01:57:42 PM by mu2010 »

Online mu2010

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Re: The Republican Party
« Reply #1120 on: September 13, 2018, 01:59:19 PM »
^ You'd be a bigot if you required or somehow compelled people to undergo such therapy. You're not a bigot because you don't want to ban it. In fact, I'd go so far as to say you are a bigot if you do want to outright ban it.

What about minors who are there against their will? (Who I assume are many or most of the people at these places) That's the issue with the free will angle here.
« Last Edit: September 13, 2018, 02:01:48 PM by mu2010 »

Offline eastvillagedon

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Re: The Republican Party
« Reply #1121 on: September 13, 2018, 02:02:49 PM »
^ You'd be a bigot if you required or somehow compelled people to undergo such therapy. You're not a bigot because you don't want to ban it. In fact, I'd go so far as to say you are a bigot if you do want to outright ban it.

What about minors who are there against their will? That's the issue with the free will angle here.

It's probably against the "will" of 95% of minors to attend school and clean their rooms. Does that make it wrong for their parents to persuade them to do so?

Offline freefourur

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Re: The Republican Party
« Reply #1122 on: September 13, 2018, 02:04:32 PM »
^ You'd be a bigot if you required or somehow compelled people to undergo such therapy. You're not a bigot because you don't want to ban it. In fact, I'd go so far as to say you are a bigot if you do want to outright ban it.

What about minors who are there against their will? That's the issue with the free will angle here.

It's probably against the "will" of 95% of minors to attend school and clean their rooms. Does that make it wrong for their parents to persuade them to do so?

Cleaning a room and being subjected to quack psychiatric therapy are two different things. 

Offline Gramarye

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Re: The Republican Party
« Reply #1123 on: September 13, 2018, 02:22:43 PM »
I'm actually at least 1/3 of the way with jonoh here, which is more than usual.  I won't call gay conversion therapy "blatantly harmful" or "discriminatory," but when it comes to debunked ... its success rate (not putting "success" in scare quotes to allow for it defining its own terms of success of reorienting a gay person's sexual attraction towards the opposite sex) leaves a great deal to be desired.

The underlying assumption is that homosexual attraction is a habit like smoking that can be quit by people who want to, and that people of sound mind should want to.  (That's the charitable statement of the underlying assumption, for outfits that don't blend religion and science and just refer to it openly as a "spiritual disease" or something of that nature.)

It would be an interesting thought experiment if there was actually a 100% successful, noninvasive technology to change sexual orientation (i.e., if these "treatments" weren't actually weak science in addition to having some people find them, well, discriminatory and harmful).  No such technology exists or is really close to existing, and we'll probably come up with treatments that give eagle eyes and cheetah speed before that.  The next century is likely to see unprecedented levels of experimentation upon the human body, simply because we're getting our other technology to the level that makes that even possible, but I still think major characteristics like that that affect both the central nervous (brain) and endocrine systems will be among the last to see major bioengineering.
« Last Edit: September 13, 2018, 02:24:47 PM by Gramarye »

Offline ethlaw

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Re: The Republican Party
« Reply #1124 on: September 13, 2018, 02:23:12 PM »
^ You'd be a bigot if you required or somehow compelled people to undergo such therapy. You're not a bigot because you don't want to ban it. In fact, I'd go so far as to say you are a bigot if you do want to outright ban it.

What about minors who are there against their will? That's the issue with the free will angle here.

It's probably against the "will" of 95% of minors to attend school and clean their rooms. Does that make it wrong for their parents to persuade them to do so?

So you (and apparently Ram) believe that cruel psychological torture is comparable to attending school. Good ol' conservative values.

Offline YABO713

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Re: The Republican Party
« Reply #1125 on: September 13, 2018, 02:25:47 PM »
Tell us again how conservatives respect facts and science while still pushing debunked, blatantly harmful and discriminatory “therapy”. 

Conservatives have the utmost respect the hard sciences, but don't give much credence to soft science theories and ideas - particularly ones that are often misrepresented as "facts."

Would your idea of a misrepresentation include that being gay is not a choice.........

Offline DarkandStormy

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Re: The Republican Party
« Reply #1126 on: September 13, 2018, 02:26:38 PM »
^ You'd be a bigot if you required or somehow compelled people to undergo such therapy. You're not a bigot because you don't want to ban it. In fact, I'd go so far as to say you are a bigot if you do want to outright ban it.

What about minors who are there against their will? That's the issue with the free will angle here.

It's probably against the "will" of 95% of minors to attend school and clean their rooms. Does that make it wrong for their parents to persuade them to do so?

So you (and apparently Ram) believe that cruel psychological torture is comparable to attending school. Good ol' conservative values.

Notice how they refuse to call out Steven King's white supremacy, continually, as well.
Very Stable Genius

Offline YABO713

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Re: The Republican Party
« Reply #1127 on: September 13, 2018, 02:33:53 PM »
^But the Democrats were racist as hell in the 1865 and 1963

Offline KJP

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Re: The Republican Party
« Reply #1128 on: September 13, 2018, 09:20:29 PM »
How does this end happily?

48% of Republicans say the "news media is the enemy"
https://www.axios.com/americans-skeptical-freedom-of-the-press-media-polling-be807f01-4ca4-4fdc-91f5-78a5fe3b6d92.html
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Online mu2010

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Re: The Republican Party
« Reply #1129 on: September 13, 2018, 11:29:46 PM »
It would be an interesting thought experiment if there was actually a 100% successful, noninvasive technology to change sexual orientation (i.e., if these "treatments" weren't actually weak science in addition to having some people find them, well, discriminatory and harmful).  No such technology exists or is really close to existing, and we'll probably come up with treatments that give eagle eyes and cheetah speed before that.  The next century is likely to see unprecedented levels of experimentation upon the human body, simply because we're getting our other technology to the level that makes that even possible, but I still think major characteristics like that that affect both the central nervous (brain) and endocrine systems will be among the last to see major bioengineering.

That is interesting because now you're getting into "playing God" territory. I would assume most religious leaders will approach the technology you describe with suspicion, and there are good reasons for that. But how would a "pro-conversion" religious leader weigh that against "playing God?"

Online mu2010

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Re: The Republican Party
« Reply #1130 on: September 13, 2018, 11:32:09 PM »
^ You'd be a bigot if you required or somehow compelled people to undergo such therapy. You're not a bigot because you don't want to ban it. In fact, I'd go so far as to say you are a bigot if you do want to outright ban it.

What about minors who are there against their will? That's the issue with the free will angle here.

It's probably against the "will" of 95% of minors to attend school and clean their rooms. Does that make it wrong for their parents to persuade them to do so?

So in other words all things that parents force their kids to do should be treated equally. We as humans smart enough or don't have the moral judgement to tell the difference between two totally different things. Locking up the kids with chains in the house in the California desert? It's the same thing as making your kid clean their room, people. You heard it here first.
« Last Edit: September 13, 2018, 11:34:20 PM by mu2010 »

Offline Gramarye

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Re: The Republican Party
« Reply #1131 on: September 14, 2018, 10:19:30 AM »
It would be an interesting thought experiment if there was actually a 100% successful, noninvasive technology to change sexual orientation (i.e., if these "treatments" weren't actually weak science in addition to having some people find them, well, discriminatory and harmful).  No such technology exists or is really close to existing, and we'll probably come up with treatments that give eagle eyes and cheetah speed before that.  The next century is likely to see unprecedented levels of experimentation upon the human body, simply because we're getting our other technology to the level that makes that even possible, but I still think major characteristics like that that affect both the central nervous (brain) and endocrine systems will be among the last to see major bioengineering.

That is interesting because now you're getting into "playing God" territory. I would assume most religious leaders will approach the technology you describe with suspicion, and there are good reasons for that. But how would a "pro-conversion" religious leader weigh that against "playing God?"

It definitely is getting into the playing God territory, but we've also managed to duplicate His powers to level cities with a single blow.  Modern biomedical engineering is getting a lot closer to genuinely restoring sight to the blind, and we're clearly not at the limit of that technology, i.e., we're close now and not done yet.  This would hardly be our first foray onto His turf, nor our ultimate one.  (There is an extraordinary community of researchers working on general healthy life extension now--essentially the mitigation and, as an ultimate goal, reversal of the aging process.  If you think religious leaders might go crazy at technological intervention in our own genes, hormones, and anatomy, consider how they might react to the real prospect of resurrection and agelessness.)  But yes, you're right that many religious leaders would view that technology with suspicion, but that has seldom actually resulted in the successful rebottling of any technological genie, meaning they would have to deal with it and consider the proper uses of such a technology once it existed.

But it's equally valid to consider how far we are from true biomedical interventions that would actually change orientation (or even skin color, which is just superficial pigment production and would probably theoretically be easier), even with how vast our technological capabilities are now compared to even just 10 years ago, let alone 30 years ago.  From the perspective of someone 50 or 100 years in the future when such genuine medical reorientation of ourselves might be possible, the kinds of "conversion therapies" on offer today would occupy the same position that Civil War battlefield medicine does from the perspective of a medical historian of 2018.

Offline 327

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Re: The Republican Party
« Reply #1132 on: September 14, 2018, 11:39:57 AM »
We're not far at all from mind-reading and implanted memories.  Best to figure out the ethics of it right now.  I think anything like that has to be voluntary, even for minors.

Offline KJP

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Re: The Republican Party
« Reply #1133 on: September 14, 2018, 03:16:18 PM »
So basically:

Manafort & Gates worked for Ukraine
Flynn worked for Turkey
Kushner works for Israel
Trump works for Russia

And the GOP think they’re making America great again.

https://twitter.com/DarthPutinKGB/status/1040607922135490560?s=19
"Treat this (November 2018) election as if it's the last election in which you can fully exercise your democratic rights. Because it just might be." -- Margy Waller.

Offline Gramarye

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Re: The Republican Party
« Reply #1134 on: September 14, 2018, 03:53:31 PM »
We're not far at all from mind-reading and implanted memories.  Best to figure out the ethics of it right now.  I think anything like that has to be voluntary, even for minors.

I think that's the minimum.  I think you'd get broad agreement on that.  The thornier questions are when certain treatments and procedures should be denied even with consent.  Medicine is not retail, though of course the more libertarian-minded side of the Republican Party will be sympathetic to arguments that it should be.  But the more religious side of the GOP will--I agree with mu2010--be inherently skeptical of technologies that allow us to reshape ourselves from the inside out, especially with things that touch our identities (nervous, endocrine, reproductive, etc. systems) in a way that less "thinking" systems (blood, muscle, bone, etc.) don't.

Implanting false memories definitely opens that door even if it also opens the door for Matrix-like downloads of entire training programs. 

Mind-reading is obviously the stuff of far-right conspiracy theorist nightmares at the moment, but that's a thing that could change.  Mind-machine interface research is fascinating both for entertainment (next-generation video games controlled completely cybernetically) as well as medicine (allowing quadriplegic people to move using mind-controlled prosthetics, and paralyzed people to communicate).

And of course if we get to the level of actual mind control, we're opening all kinds of cans of worms, even if would have all kinds of positive uses like suppressing panic and other instances in which the human brain can definitely betray its owner.

Offline Robuu

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Re: The Republican Party
« Reply #1135 on: September 14, 2018, 05:25:07 PM »
The only proper defense against a bad guy with mind control is a good guy with mind control.

Offline Gramarye

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Re: The Republican Party
« Reply #1136 on: September 14, 2018, 05:44:49 PM »

Offline jonoh81

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Re: The Republican Party
« Reply #1137 on: September 14, 2018, 08:25:24 PM »
https://www.azcentral.com/story/opinion/op-ed/laurieroberts/2018/09/13/evolution-standards-arizona-diane-douglas-creationism/1291933002/

Guy who says dinosaurs were on Noah's Ark tapped to review Arizona's evolution standards

Remember, Republicans really respect science. 

Offline freefourur

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Re: The Republican Party
« Reply #1138 on: September 14, 2018, 09:19:27 PM »
https://www.azcentral.com/story/opinion/op-ed/laurieroberts/2018/09/13/evolution-standards-arizona-diane-douglas-creationism/1291933002/

Guy who says dinosaurs were on Noah's Ark tapped to review Arizona's evolution standards

Remember, Republicans really respect science.

But but liberals in higher education is the biggest danger to America ever.

Offline KJP

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Re: The Republican Party
« Reply #1139 on: September 14, 2018, 10:37:17 PM »
Wow. A pretty significant defection....

Les Wexner Renounces Republican Party Affiliation
http://www.columbusceo.com/news/20180914/les-wexner-renounces-republican-party-affiliation

More winning

WATCH: Republican Senate candidate booed on live TV for remark about African Americans https://t.co/TRHsOC9Z4G
« Last Edit: September 14, 2018, 11:17:19 PM by KJP »
"Treat this (November 2018) election as if it's the last election in which you can fully exercise your democratic rights. Because it just might be." -- Margy Waller.