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Author Topic: Cincinnati: West End: FC Cincinnati Stadium  (Read 78149 times)

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Offline jwulsin

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Re: Cincinnati: Proposed FC Cincinnati Stadium
« Reply #810 on: March 13, 2018, 09:37:39 AM »
Both CPS and FCC have pretty good bargaining positions (FCC can go to Oakley depriving CPS of any tax revenue; CPS can withhold support depriving FCC of its preferred site)... AND they both seem to realize that the best scenario is to strike a deal that makes West End work.

Offline taestell

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Re: Cincinnati: Proposed FC Cincinnati Stadium
« Reply #811 on: March 13, 2018, 09:39:27 AM »
It's just negotiation. FCC will come back with a counteroffer, say that they'll kick in some additional amount of money for athletics, remind CPS that they won't get any tax revenue if the stadium goes to Oakley, and CPS will agree to the deal. Again, I don't understand why fans are getting exasperated because the first round of negotiations did not result in a deal. In business and in politics, it takes a lot of negotiation before a deal is reached.

Offline ryanlammi

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Re: Cincinnati: Proposed FC Cincinnati Stadium
« Reply #812 on: March 13, 2018, 09:40:36 AM »
Fans just want the whole thing decided and over. It's a lot less fun than soccer.

Offline cincydave8

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Re: Cincinnati: Proposed FC Cincinnati Stadium
« Reply #813 on: March 13, 2018, 09:47:24 AM »
Yeah because us fans have been following this drama for like 13 months now. Plus a lot of the pro-Newport people think they smell blood after Berding went over there, NKY Chamber made a meme and now NKY chamber is hosting a grill out to help get the stadium there at Wooden Cask Brewery. I had the quit a facebook fan group over this nonsense. I hope you all are correct about it getting done in the West End. Makes sense to me, but like Ryan said...I'm ready for this to be over.

Offline Brutus_buckeye

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Re: Cincinnati: Proposed FC Cincinnati Stadium
« Reply #814 on: March 13, 2018, 09:51:56 AM »
I am skeptical that the school board will do the right thing. School administrators sometimes tend to be the worst businesspeople and given the charged political mess this has become in the neighborhood, will the sensible heads prevail and realize CPS is much better off selling the land.

1) it is unrealistic to expect FC to pay the full freight on the property tax because almost no developer or commercial owner pays this, there are many ways around it and even if they would agree, they could always get them reduced in the future through legal appeal processes. Therefore, it is in the CPS best interest to be a partner with FC to make sure the investment is profitable. That will develop the neighborhood.
2) If the stadium does not go to the West End, the entire area will remain the same and not develop or gentrify. If CPS wants additional taxes, the neighborhood gentrification will help grow the pot significantly too without creating an environment to bring many new students into the system.

CPS cant afford to be greedy here. They should recognize this gift as what it is and take the deal.

Offline JaceTheAce41

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Re: Cincinnati: Proposed FC Cincinnati Stadium
« Reply #815 on: March 13, 2018, 10:31:47 AM »
Oh the West End will gentrify. The CitiRama site that FCC wants to turn into a new football stadium will instead become a bunch of expensive town homes along with the real estate development areas that FCC currently has the option on to the west of John St. There's far too much vacant property in the West End for it not to gentrify.

Offline Rabbit Hash

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Re: Cincinnati: Proposed FC Cincinnati Stadium
« Reply #816 on: March 13, 2018, 11:08:06 AM »
I am skeptical that the school board will do the right thing. School administrators sometimes tend to be the worst businesspeople and given the charged political mess this has become in the neighborhood, will the sensible heads prevail and realize CPS is much better off selling the land.

1) it is unrealistic to expect FC to pay the full freight on the property tax because almost no developer or commercial owner pays this, there are many ways around it and even if they would agree, they could always get them reduced in the future through legal appeal processes. Therefore, it is in the CPS best interest to be a partner with FC to make sure the investment is profitable. That will develop the neighborhood.
2) If the stadium does not go to the West End, the entire area will remain the same and not develop or gentrify. If CPS wants additional taxes, the neighborhood gentrification will help grow the pot significantly too without creating an environment to bring many new students into the system.

CPS cant afford to be greedy here. They should recognize this gift as what it is and take the deal.

There’s part of me that feels they are being pretty brave about it too. Further leads me to believe that the deal is done and this is all controlled brinksmanship so they both can save the day.
« Last Edit: March 13, 2018, 11:11:29 AM by Rabbit Hash »

Offline jmecklenborg

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Re: Cincinnati: Proposed FC Cincinnati Stadium
« Reply #817 on: March 13, 2018, 11:10:18 AM »
There's far too much vacant property in the West End for it not to gentrify.


By 2030 the area will be quite different, stadium or no stadium.  I believe that FC is banking on this and so anticipates owning a stadium that will be much more the center of action by then rather than the edge of the known universe. 

Offline taestell

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Re: Cincinnati: Proposed FC Cincinnati Stadium
« Reply #818 on: March 13, 2018, 11:11:23 AM »
Just a quick word about how tax abatements work. In Cincinnati, you are given a tax abatement for the improved value of your property for the city and county portions of the property tax. However, no abatement is typically given for the school property tax. So, if I buy a $25,000 lot and build a $200,000 house on it, and then get a 12 year tax abatement, I will only pay the city and county taxes based on a $25,000 valuation for the first 12 years. However I will pay the school district the full property tax based on the full (actual) $225,000 valuation.

However, what FCC is proposing is something quite different. They are suggesting that, instead of basing their payments on their property value like every other property owner does, it will be set to:

Quote
$100,000 per year between 2018 and 2020 when the stadium would be under construction.

$250,000 per year between 2021 and 2026, the first five years of stadium occupancy.

$500,000 per year between 2027 and 2031, the second five years of stadium occupancy.

A sliding scale from 2032 onward based on FC Cincinnati's net profit.

To me the biggest issue isn't the actual dollar amount, it's that FCC ownership wants to go straight to the city and county and cut a deal where their property tax rate is a set amount and not actually tied to...the value of their property. Give an abatement, that's fine by me. But this type of side deal is so shady.

Offline jmecklenborg

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Re: Cincinnati: Proposed FC Cincinnati Stadium
« Reply #819 on: March 13, 2018, 11:27:09 AM »
But this type of side deal is so shady.

Big developers always pay a much lower property tax rate than the equivalent number of homes or small businesses.  They threaten to not do the development if they don't get their deal. 

Cincinnati Public has an annual budget of $1 billion.  The amount of property tax they do or don't get from this stadium is of no consequence. 

Offline Cincy513

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Re: Cincinnati: Proposed FC Cincinnati Stadium
« Reply #820 on: March 13, 2018, 11:33:09 AM »
$1 billion and the CPS school system is still complete shit.  Jesus what a horrible use of money. 

Offline taestell

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Re: Cincinnati: Proposed FC Cincinnati Stadium
« Reply #821 on: March 13, 2018, 11:34:27 AM »
But they're not proposing to pay a lower property tax rate. They're proposing to pay a fixed amount of money that is in no way related to the actual value of their property.

Offline Brutus_buckeye

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Re: Cincinnati: Proposed FC Cincinnati Stadium
« Reply #822 on: March 13, 2018, 11:35:41 AM »
Yes and no Jake. The $500k will employ a few art teachers and band directors at some of the schools. It will mean less budget cuts elsewhere in the city down the line. It is not worth sneezing over and in the grand scheme of things, they will have a property generating $500k in taxes or $0 in taxes for the long term. To me this seems like a no - brainer. I would take an annual stream of $500k in taxes for a long time, plus they get improved facilities (an upgrade to stargel) and additional extracurricular programs in the schools.

CPS also has to realize that it make no sense to try and squeeze the city. It makes zero sense to make the deal uneconomical for the team such that they go to Newport and say screw you. No body wins there. FC is trying to create a partnership with CPS and the city, yet it appears some people on CPS are greedy and just see a fat cow they can exploit. 

Offline Cincy513

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Re: Cincinnati: Proposed FC Cincinnati Stadium
« Reply #823 on: March 13, 2018, 11:38:41 AM »
But they're not proposing to pay a lower property tax rate. They're proposing to pay a fixed amount of money that is in no way related to the actual value of their property.
Looks like GE worked out a similar deal where they pay a fixed amount every year. 


@AmandaSeitz1
I'm trying to get the payments county taxpayers make on Paul Brown Stadium. GE Global Operation at The Banks, which was sold for $107M in 2016, worked out a deal to pay $450K to the schools per year.

Offline jwulsin

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Re: Cincinnati: Proposed FC Cincinnati Stadium
« Reply #824 on: March 13, 2018, 11:45:05 AM »
To me the biggest issue isn't the actual dollar amount, it's that FCC ownership wants to go straight to the city and county and cut a deal where their property tax rate is a set amount and not actually tied to...the value of their property. Give an abatement, that's fine by me. But this type of side deal is so shady.
I see your point... but there are also challenges of how the property might be valued in the future. FCC lawyers could (and would) argue that the value of the property is very low to minimize their property tax burden. So, I actually prefer the transparency of an agreement that clearly states what they'd pay each year, as opposed to simply agreeing to a % of assessed value.

Offline jmecklenborg

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Re: Cincinnati: Proposed FC Cincinnati Stadium
« Reply #825 on: March 13, 2018, 11:54:59 AM »
Looks like GE worked out a similar deal where they pay a fixed amount every year. 
@AmandaSeitz1
I'm trying to get the payments county taxpayers make on Paul Brown Stadium.

The 1996 stadium tax is a sales tax.  That means 25-30% is paid by people who don't live in the county, especially commuters. 

Public Schools in Ohio are usually supported almost entirely by local property taxes.  In some rural districts there is an earnings tax for schools because working farms are largely exempted from paying school property taxes. 


 

Offline ryanlammi

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Re: Cincinnati: Proposed FC Cincinnati Stadium
« Reply #826 on: March 13, 2018, 11:54:59 AM »
The value of the property isn't necessarily how much you spent to build it, right?

The FCC stadium would cost $250 Million to build, but that doesn't mean that it would be valued at $250 Million. Right? GE spent $85 Million to build the Operations Center, but the county auditor lists the value at just shy of $50 Million.

Offline taestell

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Re: Cincinnati: Proposed FC Cincinnati Stadium
« Reply #827 on: March 13, 2018, 11:55:13 AM »
Owners of big, expensive buildings frequently go in front of the Board of Revisions and have their property values reduced in order to pay less tax. Back in 2014-15, the blog Cincyopolis documented many examples of this. While I don't think that many of these "revisions" should have been granted, it is a somewhat fair process. The auditor says your property is worth $X, you have to go make your case why your property is actually worth $Y. Then you have to pay the full property tax rate based on the final valuation that is determined.

I did not realize that GE got a similar "fixed rate" property tax deal. Just imagine for a second that Cincinnati landed Amazon HQ2 and they decided to locate at The Banks. The value of GE's building would have doubled or tripled overnight, and yet Cincinnati and Hamilton County would not have seen any benefit from that, since they already agreed to a fixed rate.

Offline Brutus_buckeye

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Re: Cincinnati: Proposed FC Cincinnati Stadium
« Reply #828 on: March 13, 2018, 12:12:37 PM »
^ The auditors assessment is a very imperfect tool for valuing property and often if you present appraisal data from a qualified appraisal, you will typically win your reduction. The County relies on people who do not challenge the taxes. I know the legislature is trying to work on things so that taxes do not get jacked up every time there is a transaction in order to spur more velocity in transfers in the area, but like anything, it will take a while before anything ever comes of it.

Offline troeros

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Re: Cincinnati: Proposed FC Cincinnati Stadium
« Reply #829 on: March 13, 2018, 05:30:59 PM »
https://www.cincinnati.com/story/news/education/2018/03/13/fc-cincinnati-what-take-get-yes-school-board-mls-stadium/420904002/

Melanie Bates - Yes

Eve Bolton - Yes

Ericka Copeland-Dansby - ??? Did not respond

Carolyn Jones - Yes

Ryan Messer - Yes

Mike Moroski - No

Lannis Timmons - No

Does anyone if this is a majority 4-3 vote, or if it has to be a 7-0 unanimous vote?

Offline ryanlammi

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Re: Cincinnati: Proposed FC Cincinnati Stadium
« Reply #830 on: March 13, 2018, 05:36:36 PM »
I seriously doubt it has to be a unanimous vote. Almost no decisions have to be unanimous. But I don't know the threshold.

Also, I don't think these yes/no's are indicative of what FCC has proposed. They just said that they would work with the team to come to a solution. It's possible that they could never reach a point of agreement.

Offline troeros

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Re: Cincinnati: Proposed FC Cincinnati Stadium
« Reply #831 on: March 13, 2018, 05:49:04 PM »
I seriously doubt it has to be a unanimous vote. Almost no decisions have to be unanimous. But I don't know the threshold.

Also, I don't think these yes/no's are indicative of what FCC has proposed. They just said that they would work with the team to come to a solution. It's possible that they could never reach a point of agreement.

Mike Moroski of the CPS Board just confirmed it has to be a simple majority vote. So 4-3.

The yes/no are indicative of there current stance, on the basis if FCC increases there tax pledge. To what amount is unknown. The 2 no votes, want the full 2 million of tax income. No room for negation.

Not sure what the, "magic number" for CPS is, with those who are willing to negotiate a dollar amount..

Offline taestell

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Re: Cincinnati: Proposed FC Cincinnati Stadium
« Reply #832 on: March 13, 2018, 05:54:16 PM »
I would not doubt that there is some politicking behind the scenes to get the minimum number of "yes" votes necessary to pass this sale. It's going to be controversial decision, so even if it actually has more than 4-3 support from the board, board members want to avoid sticking their necks out there and potentially being voted out of office next time they're up for election.

Offline SleepyLeroy

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Re: Cincinnati: Proposed FC Cincinnati Stadium
« Reply #833 on: March 14, 2018, 10:52:33 AM »
This and the fact that it really doesn't effect the residential part of the West End now if it faces Central Parkway and it doens't cross John street should make this a win for all involved i would hope. It would be nice if the city and county weren't pressured to pony up tax money for it but hopefully the pros outweigh the cons. Hopefully this keeps the enthusiasm for soccer growing and doesn't kill it like the PBS deal did for so many.
I hope CPS says yes and the residents say yes. Time to move on to the positives.
 

https://www.cincinnati.com/story/news/2018/03/14/fc-cincinnati-doubles-stadium-offer-schools-demands-answer-5-p-m-wednesday/423753002/

Offline Brutus_buckeye

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Re: Cincinnati: Proposed FC Cincinnati Stadium
« Reply #834 on: March 14, 2018, 11:26:32 AM »
It would be malfeasance for the board to turn down the current offer of $750k per year

Offline jmecklenborg

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Re: Cincinnati: Proposed FC Cincinnati Stadium
« Reply #835 on: March 14, 2018, 11:59:53 AM »
This and the fact that it really doesn't effect the residential part of the West End now if it faces Central Parkway

It's literally on the extreme edge of the neighborhood, where nobody lives.

But we still haven't seen a site plan.  It would be a shame if they're planning a large parking garage between John St. and the edge of the stadium. 



Offline oudd

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Re: Cincinnati: Proposed FC Cincinnati Stadium
« Reply #836 on: March 14, 2018, 12:20:50 PM »
I wonder if there's any chance of having a restaurant/bar/shop/anything on the side facing Central Parkway that could be open year-round. That would make the stadium less of a dead space during the winter months.

Offline Cincy513

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Re: Cincinnati: Proposed FC Cincinnati Stadium
« Reply #837 on: March 14, 2018, 12:21:25 PM »
This and the fact that it really doesn't effect the residential part of the West End now if it faces Central Parkway

It's literally on the extreme edge of the neighborhood, where nobody lives.

But we still haven't seen a site plan.  It would be a shame if they're planning a large parking garage between John St. and the edge of the stadium. 



They said it would be some type of plaza or green space between John St. and the stadium.  But like you said we haven't seen any plans or mock ups. 

Offline cincydave8

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Re: Cincinnati: Proposed FC Cincinnati Stadium
« Reply #838 on: March 14, 2018, 12:51:07 PM »
CPS has scheduled an emergency meeting for 1:30pm

Offline jmecklenborg

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Re: Cincinnati: Proposed FC Cincinnati Stadium
« Reply #839 on: March 14, 2018, 02:08:40 PM »
Amazing...FC school board meeting held at the same time as city council Harry Black meeting.  Chris Wetterich and our thinned-out media can't be at both meetings at once.  Carl Lindner, Jr. built a fortune by pulling off moves like this.  Carl III didn't fall far from the tree.