Author Topic: The Democratic Party  (Read 44835 times)

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Online YABO713

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Re: The Democratic Party
« Reply #870 on: July 10, 2018, 01:14:30 PM »
It's a bit disappointing to see YABO post those quotes which seemingly claim that social democracies are somehow comparable to authoritarian socialist regimes. Usually YABO offers conservative perspectives that I can understand and respect, so it's a little surprising to see him post such a poorly thought out argument that seems like it could've been copied and pasted from Turning Point USA.

I'd love to see a well thought out argument that offers any sort of proof that democratic socialist ideals which have been highly successful in other countries (such as universal healthcare, free/affordable higher education, consumer finance protections, campaign finance limits, etc) would lead to authoritarian regimes and toppled economies, but I doubt they really exist. Just look at the high quality of life in many other countries that could be considered social democracies (Norway, Denmark, Sweden, etc.). The US's average standard of living is pretty pathetic in comparison.

I posted that because people here are referring to "socialism"

The Nordic model has socialist elements that work for them - though there are now some sustainability issues in Norway with an influx of new immigrants- but on the whole is still an overwhelmingly free-market, capitalist system.

Offline ethlaw

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Re: The Democratic Party
« Reply #871 on: July 10, 2018, 01:19:56 PM »
^ True, but I think the definition of socialism has become a bit looser (probably largely because of Bernie Sanders who proudly uses the word socialism to brand his policies, while it'd probably be more accurate if he used "social democracy" or "democratic socialism")

I think you'd be pretty hard-pressed to find elected officials in the US who actually want to fully overthrow capitalism. Ocasio-Cortez just wants to pursue policies similar to the Nordic model. She'd be a pretty mainstream left-wing politician in most Western European countries.

Online YABO713

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Re: The Democratic Party
« Reply #872 on: July 10, 2018, 01:23:40 PM »
^ True, but I think the definition of socialism has become a bit looser (probably largely because of Bernie Sanders who proudly uses the word socialism to brand his policies, while it'd probably be more accurate if he used "social democracy" or "democratic socialism")

I think you'd be pretty hard-pressed to find elected officials in the US who actually want to fully overthrow capitalism. Ocasio-Cortez just wants to pursue policies similar to the Nordic model. She'd be a pretty mainstream left-wing politician in most Western European countries.

Right, and I'd love for dialogue to reflect that. Socialism, as a system, has been proven to be a failure. I'm not against Medicaid and Social Security, and think expansion wouldn't be a bad thing, but again... not socialism.

Part of why I so strongly disliked Bernie Sanders is that he fed Utopian ideas and words to people that didn't know better and promoted ideas that weren't scaleable. Meanwhile, I'd venture to bet that most people under 30 believe Scandanavian countries are socialist - that's the problem.

I get that there are some flaws in capitalism that need to be checked, but no economic system on earth has ever created as much upward mobility for people.

Online freefourur

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Re: The Democratic Party
« Reply #873 on: July 10, 2018, 01:27:27 PM »
^ True, but I think the definition of socialism has become a bit looser (probably largely because of Bernie Sanders who proudly uses the word socialism to brand his policies, while it'd probably be more accurate if he used "social democracy" or "democratic socialism")

I think you'd be pretty hard-pressed to find elected officials in the US who actually want to fully overthrow capitalism. Ocasio-Cortez just wants to pursue policies similar to the Nordic model. She'd be a pretty mainstream left-wing politician in most Western European countries.

Right, and I'd love for dialogue to reflect that. Socialism, as a system, has been proven to be a failure. I'm not against Medicaid and Social Security, and think expansion wouldn't be a bad thing, but again... not socialism.

Part of why I so strongly disliked Bernie Sanders is that he fed Utopian ideas and words to people that didn't know better and promoted ideas that weren't scaleable. Meanwhile, I'd venture to bet that most people under 30 believe Scandanavian countries are socialist - that's the problem.

I get that there are some flaws in capitalism that need to be checked, but no economic system on earth has ever created as much upward mobility for people.

I think we often conflate common goods as socialism.  Do we consider police and fire as socialism or is that just something we have decided is better provided for as a common good rather than a private good. Capitalism is by far the best system for the efficient distribution of goods and services.  However, there are goods and services which should not be distributed based on efficiency.  The discussion is really about deciding which things are better distributed efficiently and which are not.


Online mu2010

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Re: The Democratic Party
« Reply #874 on: July 10, 2018, 01:32:08 PM »
Quote
Socialism is the Big Lie of the twentieth century.

No, the big lie of the twentieth century is the idea that socialism and capitalism are two mutually exclusive, black and white things. Of course on the far ends of the spectrum they are, but the reality is that all modern countries have a mixture of both. I favor a market-based economy with socialized medicine and education. I think that taxing the wealthy in order to support the futures of the non-wealthy is a fair way to have the successful "pay it forward" and I think that a healthy and educated population benefits our economic prospects as a whole. I am a finance guy and consider myself a business-oriented person.

It is only those on the far American libertarian right (which has now become the mainstream) that believes that any and all redistribution of wealth or income is the absolute most immoral thing in existence, above any other moral concerns. (They conveniently ignore whatever government policies assisted the wealthy in the acquisition of their wealth, of course.)

The far left doesn't help either with their message that any and all all business, profits, and wealthy people are evil.

It's really not rocket science, welfare capitalism works, people.

Online YABO713

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Re: The Democratic Party
« Reply #875 on: July 10, 2018, 01:34:55 PM »


It is only those on the far American libertarian right (which has now become the mainstream) that believes that any and all redistribution of wealth or income is the absolute most immoral thing in existence, above any other moral concerns. (They conveniently ignore whatever government policies assisted the wealthy in the acquisition of their wealth, of course.)


Yeah, we currently have tariffs on our allies while the GOP runs the WH and Congress... I think you'll be hard pressed to convince me they're main stream

Online mu2010

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Re: The Democratic Party
« Reply #876 on: July 10, 2018, 01:40:58 PM »
Fair point, so let me restrict it to welfare policy specifically because libertarian views on trade have definitely not been embraced by as many Republicans. I'll revise to say that far-right libertarian views on welfare policy specifically have become a mainstream position in the GOP, as opposed to say, the days of Nixon. I have personally met dozens of Republicans who literally think, for example, that we should get rid of social security and medicare because it's redistributive and therefore wrong.

I feel that it's an insurance program and that redistribution in order to prevent half of seniors from dying on the streets is a humane thing to do, as well as a sensible price to pay to live in a country where there aren't (as many) starving senior citizens on the streets.
« Last Edit: July 10, 2018, 01:45:42 PM by mu2010 »

Offline GCrites80s

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Re: The Democratic Party
« Reply #877 on: July 10, 2018, 02:41:01 PM »


It is only those on the far American libertarian right (which has now become the mainstream) that believes that any and all redistribution of wealth or income is the absolute most immoral thing in existence, above any other moral concerns. (They conveniently ignore whatever government policies assisted the wealthy in the acquisition of their wealth, of course.)


Yeah, we currently have tariffs on our allies while the GOP runs the WH and Congress... I think you'll be hard pressed to convince me they're main stream

You'd think the R's would have paid attention in business school where they tell you over and over again that tariffs are stupid. They all claim to be such good businessmen.

Online freefourur

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Re: The Democratic Party
« Reply #878 on: July 10, 2018, 02:41:55 PM »
^ they don't want to get nasty tweets.  That's more important than principles.

Offline DarkandStormy

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Re: The Democratic Party
« Reply #879 on: July 10, 2018, 04:45:16 PM »
https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/congress-generic-ballot-polls/?ex_cid=rrpromo

Some interesting recent GCB polls out recently.

Ipsos/Reuters - Dems 46-34
The Washington Post (rated A+ by 538) - Dems 47-37
Quinnipiac - Dems 50-41

538 average is now 48-39 Dems
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Offline DarkandStormy

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Re: The Democratic Party
« Reply #880 on: July 10, 2018, 04:53:29 PM »
https://www.reviewjournal.com/news/politics-and-government/nevada/jacky-rosen-again-outpaces-dean-heller-in-senate-race-fundraising/

Quote
For the fourth straight quarter, Democratic challenger Jacky Rosen has raised more campaign contributions than incumbent Republican U.S. Sen. Dean Heller.
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Offline DarkandStormy

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Re: The Democratic Party
« Reply #881 on: July 11, 2018, 12:21:25 PM »
https://www.commondreams.org/news/2018/07/10/months-after-gop-approved-15t-giveaway-rich-ocasio-cortez-shreds-those-questioning

Conservatives and the right-wing media have spent recent weeks asking just how Ocasio-Cortez would plan to pay for her evil, socialist policy ideas.  They were applauding the tax cut six months ago that is projected to add more than $1.5 trillion to the deficit.

Quote
The Medicare for All plan proposed by Sen. Bernie Sanders (I-Vt.), whose presidential campaign Ocasio-Cortez worked on, is estimated to cost the government $1.38 trillion per year, while the current profit-based system costs about $3 trillion per year.

Ocasio-Cortez's plan to cancel the $1.4 trillion in student debt carried by Americans "would increase GDP by between $86 billion and $108 billion per year, over the next decade" according to the Levy Economics Institute of Bard College.
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Offline DarkandStormy

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Re: The Democratic Party
« Reply #882 on: July 11, 2018, 12:32:52 PM »
http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/mood_of_america/generic_congressional_ballot

Rasmussen - Ram and EVD's favorite poll - shows Dems up 48-40 (+8) on GCB.
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Online YABO713

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Re: The Democratic Party
« Reply #883 on: July 11, 2018, 03:45:49 PM »

Online KJP

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Re: The Democratic Party
« Reply #884 on: July 12, 2018, 08:26:34 AM »
"Treat this (November 2018) election as if it's the last election in which you can fully exercise your democratic rights. Because it just might be." -- Margy Waller.

Offline DarkandStormy

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Re: The Democratic Party
« Reply #885 on: July 12, 2018, 11:04:51 AM »
https://www.texastribune.org/2018/07/11/beto-orourke-fundraising-huge-second-quarter-2018-ted-cruz/

Quote
Beto O'Rourke, the Democratic nominee for U.S. Senate in Texas, raised more than $10.4 million over the past three months, he announced Wednesday, revealing a sum that takes his already massive fundraising to new heights.

And the El Paso congressman again vastly outraised the Republican incumbent, Ted Cruz, who took in less than half of his challenger's haul $4.6 million at the same time, according to his campaign. O'Rourke also took a decisive lead in cash on hand over Cruz with four months to Election Day, $14 million to $10.4 million.
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Offline ethlaw

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Re: The Democratic Party
« Reply #886 on: July 12, 2018, 04:26:24 PM »
^ The O'Rourke - Cruz race is (to me) perhaps the most interesting Senate race this year. Cruz is still favored to win, but O'Rourke has been quite impressive so far and I definitely think it's possible that he could pull ahead and win. The Senate would be a much better place without Ted Cruz.

Offline DarkandStormy

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Re: The Democratic Party
« Reply #887 on: July 12, 2018, 04:35:41 PM »
^ The O'Rourke - Cruz race is (to me) perhaps the most interesting Senate race this year. Cruz is still favored to win, but O'Rourke has been quite impressive so far and I definitely think it's possible that he could pull ahead and win. The Senate would be a much better place without Ted Cruz.

TX, TN, AZ, NV, FL are my top 5.

ND, WV, IN, MO, and then maybe MT/NE/MS/OH would be my next 5.
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Offline edale

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Re: The Democratic Party
« Reply #888 on: July 12, 2018, 05:12:06 PM »
The fundraising numbers are encouraging, but haven't we seen recently that fundraising really doesn't matter all that much anymore? Ocasio-Cortez had only a slight fraction of the funds that Crowley had.  I would love nothing more than to see Ted Cruz ousted from the Senate. What a slime ball. I assume it will probably come down to Hispanic turnout, but I admittedly don't know Texas politics well. 

Offline Ram23

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Re: The Democratic Party
« Reply #889 on: July 12, 2018, 07:14:26 PM »
The fundraising numbers are encouraging, but haven't we seen recently that fundraising really doesn't matter all that much anymore? Ocasio-Cortez had only a slight fraction of the funds that Crowley had.  I would love nothing more than to see Ted Cruz ousted from the Senate. What a slime ball. I assume it will probably come down to Hispanic turnout, but I admittedly don't know Texas politics well. 

It's a bit ironic (but somehow wholly American) that a guy named "Cruz" would lose ground to a guy named "O'Rourke" because of higher Hispanic turnout.

Offline edale

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Re: The Democratic Party
« Reply #890 on: July 12, 2018, 07:34:53 PM »
^ Lol, that's actually a good point. Of course Ted (Rafael) Cruz, like Bobby (Piyush) Jindal and Nikki (Nimrata) Haley, made the move to whitewash his name as much as possible. Seems to be a trend among ambitious minority Republican politicians.

Online KJP

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Re: The Democratic Party
« Reply #891 on: July 12, 2018, 07:46:06 PM »
Speaking of Crowley, here's a scumbag on the Democratic side....

See this from '98 - @JoeCrowleyNY manipulated election law to get himself appointed to Congress in a way that blocked any challenger. Now to justify not conceding to @Ocasio2018, hes pretending he just cares about the integrity of election laws & democracy https://t.co/Viq40HAuNB https://t.co/v8fXDyeXF6
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Offline DarkandStormy

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Re: The Democratic Party
« Reply #892 on: July 13, 2018, 09:31:05 AM »
http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/mood_of_america/generic_congressional_ballot

Rasmussen - Ram and EVD's favorite poll - shows Dems up 48-40 (+8) on GCB.

yikes

Another Ram and EVD special - Fox News has the GCB as Dems 48-40.  Fox actually has an A rating from 538, indicating they conduct pretty good polls.

https://www.scribd.com/document/383743616/Fox-July-2018-National-Topline-July-12-Release#fullscreen&from_embed
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Offline DarkandStormy

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Re: The Democratic Party
« Reply #893 on: July 16, 2018, 05:09:13 PM »
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Offline DarkandStormy

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Re: The Democratic Party
« Reply #894 on: July 17, 2018, 03:43:30 PM »
https://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/latest_polls/senate/

Some recent Senate polling out.

-FL: Nelson +4
-TN: Bredesen +6
-NJ: Menendez +2 (Is this an outlier or closer to reality? Could be trouble if it's the latter.)
-MT: Tester +3
-MO: Hawley +2 (McCaskill looks like she'll be in for a tough fight again.)
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Offline DarkandStormy

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Re: The Democratic Party
« Reply #895 on: July 18, 2018, 09:51:43 AM »
https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/congress-generic-ballot-polls/?ex_cid=rrpromo

Some recent polls from the last week on the GCB:

-Ipsos/Reuters: D+10
-Morning Consult: D+8
-Fox News: D+8
-Ipsos/Reuters: D+15 (seems like the outlier given their other polls)
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Online KJP

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Re: The Democratic Party
« Reply #896 on: July 19, 2018, 01:23:24 AM »
Glad we're all being civil....

DEVELOPING: Multiple rounds fired into Democrat headquarters in Albany, New York
READ MORE: https://t.co/u22AFtdcKL
"Treat this (November 2018) election as if it's the last election in which you can fully exercise your democratic rights. Because it just might be." -- Margy Waller.

Offline taestell

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Re: The Democratic Party
« Reply #897 on: July 19, 2018, 03:00:06 PM »
Surely a false flag operation.

Offline DarkandStormy

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Re: The Democratic Party
« Reply #898 on: July 19, 2018, 03:01:23 PM »
Glad we're all being civil....

DEVELOPING: Multiple rounds fired into Democrat headquarters in Albany, New York
READ MORE: https://t.co/u22AFtdcKL

cc: @eastvillagedon
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Offline 327

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Re: The Democratic Party
« Reply #899 on: July 20, 2018, 05:02:48 PM »
https://www.cleveland.com/open/index.ssf/2018/07/tim_ryan_comes_out_in_support.html

Tim Ryan sponsoring a bill to make marijuana legal nationwide.  I'm astounded that more Democrats haven't gotten in front of this issue.  Problem is, the party's congressional leaders are all 1000 years old.  They don't realize how bad it looks for them to stand with Jeff Sessions and the Republicans on prohibition.