Author Topic: Political Correctness  (Read 51337 times)

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Offline Gramarye

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Re: Political Correctness
« Reply #1740 on: September 13, 2018, 01:56:58 PM »
Serious question Gram,

How long has this social fabric of American unity existed that supposedly holds us all together?

Since the last Civil War.  Could we please turn back from the path leading to another one?

/halfsarc

So Jim Crow is part of the social fabric?

The blight of Jim Crow has been excised from our social fabric.  It has been replaced with the blight of Title IX, affirmative action, and other more PC-friendly preference programs.

Offline freefourur

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Re: Political Correctness
« Reply #1741 on: September 13, 2018, 01:57:01 PM »
^^ Change the subject now.  We are talking about people loosely associating with each other because of commonality not openly discriminating against people by denying them employment.  But it is telling that you agree with on but not the other.

Offline Gramarye

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Re: Political Correctness
« Reply #1742 on: September 13, 2018, 01:58:04 PM »
^^ Change the subject now.  We are talking about people loosely associating with each other because of commonality not openly discriminating against people by denying them employment.  But it is telling that you agree with on but not the other.

How do affirmative action, minority- and women-owned business set-asides, etc., not openly discriminate against people who are not in the favored group?

Offline freefourur

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Re: Political Correctness
« Reply #1743 on: September 13, 2018, 01:58:34 PM »
Serious question Gram,

How long has this social fabric of American unity existed that supposedly holds us all together?

Since the last Civil War.  Could we please turn back from the path leading to another one?

/halfsarc

So Jim Crow is part of the social fabric?

The blight of Jim Crow has been excised from our social fabric.  It has been replaced with the blight of Title IX, affirmative action, and other more PC-friendly preference programs.

So then the social fabric existed post Jim Crow?  I am very confused at what constant social fabric we are trying to maintain here.

Offline freefourur

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Re: Political Correctness
« Reply #1744 on: September 13, 2018, 01:59:58 PM »
^^ Change the subject now.  We are talking about people loosely associating with each other because of commonality not openly discriminating against people by denying them employment.  But it is telling that you agree with on but not the other.

How do affirmative action, minority- and women-owned business set-asides, etc., not openly discriminate against people who are not in the favored group?
You weren't talking about affirmative action. You were stating that companies should be allowed to fire people for being black or whatever they want.  You are trying to change the subject again.

Offline Gramarye

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Re: Political Correctness
« Reply #1745 on: September 13, 2018, 02:04:29 PM »
Serious question Gram,

How long has this social fabric of American unity existed that supposedly holds us all together?

Since the last Civil War.  Could we please turn back from the path leading to another one?

/halfsarc

So Jim Crow is part of the social fabric?

The blight of Jim Crow has been excised from our social fabric.  It has been replaced with the blight of Title IX, affirmative action, and other more PC-friendly preference programs.

So then the social fabric existed post Jim Crow?  I am very confused at what constant social fabric we are trying to maintain here.

It's always changing.  Quite often that's for the better.  Sometimes it's not.  I want to take your question seriously but I honestly don't know how.  These are things that are so obvious to me that I guess at this point they're just the water in which I swim.  My quip about the Civil War was because I really think we're headed for another one, or else a breakup of the country without enough people fighting hard enough to preserve it, and I don't celebrate that fact the way KJP does.  And to the extent that conflict gets hot, there is a good chance that it will be along identity-politics lines, lines made sharper by the blind allegiance to such categories shown by people who think that it's just the way life is, that there's no such thing as American identity that could trump loyalty to tribal factions based on immutable accidents of birth.  I seek to blur those lines.  I sincerely believe it will be a life-and-death issue at some point for my mixed-race children (whom I shouldn't need to describe as mixed-race, they should get to be just my children), who have no obvious tribe of their own to seek protection in if the coming identitarian conflicts turn hot.  That means, among other things, doing away with policies that recognize the existence of those lines of segregation and elevate them to undeserved importance.

^^ Change the subject now.  We are talking about people loosely associating with each other because of commonality not openly discriminating against people by denying them employment.  But it is telling that you agree with on but not the other.

How do affirmative action, minority- and women-owned business set-asides, etc., not openly discriminate against people who are not in the favored group?
You weren't talking about affirmative action. You were stating that companies should be allowed to fire people for being black or whatever they want.  You are trying to change the subject again.

No, these are the same subject.

Offline freefourur

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Re: Political Correctness
« Reply #1746 on: September 13, 2018, 02:07:46 PM »
^ I'm sorry but your race war scenario seems very Ales Jonesish to me.  I can't really take it seriously. 

But you do seem to concede the fact that American social fabric is constantly changing an constantly in flux and seems the only thing that ever brought us to fisticuffs is the enslavement of human beings.  Perhaps I have a stronger idea of what holds us together and that we will continue to be held together provided that we don't forcefully enslave a group of people again.



They are not the same subject.  I do not agree with set aside programs but I don;t think that we should eliminate protected classes.  It is not mutually exclusive.

Offline DarkandStormy

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Re: Political Correctness
« Reply #1747 on: September 13, 2018, 02:10:16 PM »
there's no such thing as American identity that could trump loyalty to tribal factions based on immutable accidents of birth.

There are enormous differences of degree here, and that's only to the extent you're talking about divisive right-wing tribal identity politics like Pence's.  (Or Trump's, which is a different variety.)  To the extent that I'm talking about it--the desire to see American identity elevated above sub-American tribal identities--no, I do not for a moment concede that it is nefarious and in fact I have consistently stated that making that happen is one of the most critical national priorities for preserving the cultural commonality necessary to preserve the entire country.

Who is defining the "American identity" and "cultural commonality" you seek to preserve?  What do you think needs to be preserved?

I'm not sure I follow - you keep saying "American identity" but what does it mean and who gets to define it?
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Offline Gramarye

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Re: Political Correctness
« Reply #1748 on: September 13, 2018, 02:27:46 PM »
there's no such thing as American identity that could trump loyalty to tribal factions based on immutable accidents of birth.

There are enormous differences of degree here, and that's only to the extent you're talking about divisive right-wing tribal identity politics like Pence's.  (Or Trump's, which is a different variety.)  To the extent that I'm talking about it--the desire to see American identity elevated above sub-American tribal identities--no, I do not for a moment concede that it is nefarious and in fact I have consistently stated that making that happen is one of the most critical national priorities for preserving the cultural commonality necessary to preserve the entire country.

Who is defining the "American identity" and "cultural commonality" you seek to preserve?  What do you think needs to be preserved?

I'm not sure I follow - you keep saying "American identity" but what does it mean and who gets to define it?

Again, so many fundamental assumptions of this question are utterly alien to me that I just don't know how to take it seriously even if I want to in good faith.  Has there even been some central authority defining "Americanness?"  Are you suggesting there should be?  Why does this question need to be asked or answered, and how could anyone ever do so?  What kinds of facts would you be looking for to answer it?

Offline GCrites80s

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Re: Political Correctness
« Reply #1749 on: September 13, 2018, 02:32:07 PM »
For some reason, Caucasian culture from the year 1957 gets zeroed in on for max "American-ness"

Offline DarkandStormy

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Re: Political Correctness
« Reply #1750 on: September 13, 2018, 02:34:37 PM »
there's no such thing as American identity that could trump loyalty to tribal factions based on immutable accidents of birth.

There are enormous differences of degree here, and that's only to the extent you're talking about divisive right-wing tribal identity politics like Pence's.  (Or Trump's, which is a different variety.)  To the extent that I'm talking about it--the desire to see American identity elevated above sub-American tribal identities--no, I do not for a moment concede that it is nefarious and in fact I have consistently stated that making that happen is one of the most critical national priorities for preserving the cultural commonality necessary to preserve the entire country.

Who is defining the "American identity" and "cultural commonality" you seek to preserve?  What do you think needs to be preserved?

I'm not sure I follow - you keep saying "American identity" but what does it mean and who gets to define it?

Again, so many fundamental assumptions of this question are utterly alien to me that I just don't know how to take it seriously even if I want to in good faith.  Has there even been some central authority defining "Americanness?"  Are you suggesting there should be?  Why does this question need to be asked or answered, and how could anyone ever do so?  What kinds of facts would you be looking for to answer it?

You keep hamering home it's a top priority to preserve this cultural commonality and American identity.  I am asking what the (or your) definition of American identity is.  You have declined to answer so far.
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Offline X

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Re: Political Correctness
« Reply #1751 on: September 13, 2018, 02:34:58 PM »
Again, so many fundamental assumptions of this question are utterly alien to me that I just don't know how to take it seriously even if I want to in good faith.  Has there even been some central authority defining "Americanness?"  Are you suggesting there should be?  Why does this question need to be asked or answered, and how could anyone ever do so?  What kinds of facts would you be looking for to answer it?

You're the one suggesting that there is a specific identity that must be protected, and that some "other" within our country is trying to undermine it.  If there is no specific "American Identity", how can that be an issue?

It seems to me that you have an idea of what you think it should be, but hope to protect it (either it's definition itself, or your perogative to define that definition by yourself) by leaving it nebulous and unsaid.

Offline Gramarye

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Re: Political Correctness
« Reply #1752 on: September 13, 2018, 02:44:54 PM »
So in response to the question of "who" gets to define American identity, you expect me to answer, "me, and here it is!"

I can't do that.

Maybe I can give broad outlines.  But I think it would just rehash a great deal of what I've already said on this thread.  And I think I'm out of time (and mental energy) for this for a little bit.

Offline DarkandStormy

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Re: Political Correctness
« Reply #1753 on: September 13, 2018, 02:47:04 PM »
So in response to the question of "who" gets to define American identity, you expect me to answer, "me, and here it is!"

I can't do that.

Maybe I can give broad outlines.  But I think it would just rehash a great deal of what I've already said on this thread.  And I think I'm out of time (and mental energy) for this for a little bit.

We're just trying to figure out what cultural commonality and American identity you think needs so badly to be preserved in order to save the country.
Very Stable Genius

Offline Brutus_buckeye

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Re: Political Correctness
« Reply #1754 on: September 13, 2018, 02:58:17 PM »
I identify as a human being before I do American.  My place of birth neither dictates who I am nor limits my ability to give a sh*t about people not born within the nation’s borders.  Obviously, a lot of people have empathy only until the border, and some well within.

This is a bit of an aside to the current discussion, but I grew up with the sort of fake outward patriotism.  Our family wasn't overtly absurd about it like Trumpists are now, but displaying patriotism on tshirts was seen as good.  Either through my parents or through school, it was taught to me that America is not only exceptional but should be dominant as well.

I've thought a lot about this over the last 3-4 years.  Why should I care more about someone born on one side of an imaginary line and less (or even hate) someone else born on the other side of that line?  We've started routing some of our charitable donations to help the most people possible - and $1 can go farther in other parts of the world.

But I really bristle now at this idea of "**** everyone else, America first (and only)!"  I'm happy I was born in America - essentially winning the lottery at birth compared to the other 7 billion on the planet - but I don't think that should mean my empathy and my caring should only be confined to the borders of this country.

I think overall, Americans are a generous nation that seeks to help others, the motto should be something as simple as "be nice and help your neighbor". it just seems like lately that has been usurped by "be nice and help your neighbor unless they happen to be a Republican/Democrat/Libertarian/Socialist/etc. and if that is the case, hopefully they rot in hell"

I remember during the first Democratic debate back in late 2015 the question was asked who was the biggest enemy. Hillary, to applause of the crowd, said Republicans. I could not help think how this answer demonstrated poor leadership. Yes, it may have been a democratic debate and the GOP was an adversary to those on the left, but by saying this, she declared it was ok for people to be hostile to 1/2 the country that does not share their views. When she described them as the enemy, it was more than we disagree significantly on many issues, she essentially was saying that the other side is trying to actively do harm to you and seeking to conquer and dominate you the way the Nazi's or Japanese tried to do in WWII.

I feel that this statement furthered the divide more than anything in the last 2 years and created additional hostilities between people on the left and GOP that has resulted in some of the violence that we see today.

Offline 327

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Re: Political Correctness
« Reply #1755 on: September 13, 2018, 03:04:44 PM »
Every time I take a stab at defining American-ness, some degree of pluralism is always there.  So is adherence to the founding principles that distinguished this country from others.  But those principles were inconsistent to begin with and they've needed constant updates over time.  Some of the things we've tried, like prohibition, didn't work at all and had to be scrapped.  As Lincoln mentioned in his famous speech, this whole thing is an experiment.  So change has to be part of the definition too.  Our system has gotten us this far not because it's perfect but because it acknowledges its own imperfection.  There is no golden moment frozen in time for us to go back and recapture.  There have always been problems, and yesterday's problems gave us today's.

Offline DEPACincy

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Re: Political Correctness
« Reply #1756 on: September 13, 2018, 03:08:50 PM »
I identify as a human being before I do American.  My place of birth neither dictates who I am nor limits my ability to give a sh*t about people not born within the nationís borders.  Obviously, a lot of people have empathy only until the border, and some well within.

This is a bit of an aside to the current discussion, but I grew up with the sort of fake outward patriotism.  Our family wasn't overtly absurd about it like Trumpists are now, but displaying patriotism on tshirts was seen as good.  Either through my parents or through school, it was taught to me that America is not only exceptional but should be dominant as well.

I've thought a lot about this over the last 3-4 years.  Why should I care more about someone born on one side of an imaginary line and less (or even hate) someone else born on the other side of that line?  We've started routing some of our charitable donations to help the most people possible - and $1 can go farther in other parts of the world.

But I really bristle now at this idea of "**** everyone else, America first (and only)!"  I'm happy I was born in America - essentially winning the lottery at birth compared to the other 7 billion on the planet - but I don't think that should mean my empathy and my caring should only be confined to the borders of this country.

I think overall, Americans are a generous nation that seeks to help others, the motto should be something as simple as "be nice and help your neighbor". it just seems like lately that has been usurped by "be nice and help your neighbor unless they happen to be a Republican/Democrat/Libertarian/Socialist/etc. and if that is the case, hopefully they rot in hell"

I remember during the first Democratic debate back in late 2015 the question was asked who was the biggest enemy. Hillary, to applause of the crowd, said Republicans. I could not help think how this answer demonstrated poor leadership. Yes, it may have been a democratic debate and the GOP was an adversary to those on the left, but by saying this, she declared it was ok for people to be hostile to 1/2 the country that does not share their views. When she described them as the enemy, it was more than we disagree significantly on many issues, she essentially was saying that the other side is trying to actively do harm to you and seeking to conquer and dominate you the way the Nazi's or Japanese tried to do in WWII.

I feel that this statement furthered the divide more than anything in the last 2 years and created additional hostilities between people on the left and GOP that has resulted in some of the violence that we see today.

I'll agree that line was a gaff but let's not make it something it wasn't. She listed like 5 or 6 organizations and then she laughed and said "probably the Republicans." It was a joke. A poor joke, but a joke. And it doesn't compare to the rhetoric that has been coming from the right for 10 years.

As far as empathy and compassion are concerned, the opposite of what you guys keep saying is true. Liberals extend empathy to a larger circle, while conservative are the ones who promote tribalism:

https://www.businessinsider.com/liberals-and-conservatives-process-disgust-and-empathy-differently-2018-1


Offline DEPACincy

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Re: Political Correctness
« Reply #1757 on: September 13, 2018, 03:28:02 PM »
To me, the "American identity" has always been that we don't have a collective identity. Rather, we all bring with us our identities and they exist together in a way that wonderful and unique. The conversation reminds me of the words of the great American poet, Brad Paisley:

She's got Brazilian leather boots on the pedal of her German car
Listen to the Beatles singing back in the USSR
Yeah she's goin' around the world tonight
But she ain't leavin' here
She's just going to meet her boyfriend down at the street fair

It's a french kiss, Italian ice
Spanish moss in the moonlight
Just another American Saturday night

There's a big toga party tonight down at Delta Chi
They've got Canadian bacon on their pizza pie
They've got a cooler full of cold Coronas and Amstel light
It's like were all livin' in a big ol' cup
Just fire up the blender, mix it all up

It's a French kiss, Italian ice
Margaritas in the moonlight (whoa)
Just another American Saturday night

You know everywhere has something they're known for
Although usually it washes up on our shores
My great great great granddaddy stepped off of that ship
I bet he never ever dreamed we'd have all this
You know everywhere has somethin' they're known for
Although usually it washes up on our shores
Little Italy, Chinatown, sittin' there side by side
Live from New York, It's Saturday Night!

It's a French kiss, Italian ice,
Spanish moss in the moonlight
Just another American, just another American,
Its just another American Saturday night

Offline jam40jeff

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Re: Political Correctness
« Reply #1758 on: September 13, 2018, 03:33:24 PM »
So in response to the question of "who" gets to define American identity, you expect me to answer, "me, and here it is!"

I can't do that.

You brought up your "desire to see American identity elevated above sub-American tribal identities", so clearly you must have some definition in your mind of what an "American identity" is.

Offline DarkandStormy

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Re: Political Correctness
« Reply #1759 on: September 17, 2018, 12:40:14 PM »
Just want to follow up from last week to see if we're going to get this ever elusive definition of "American identity" that is so important to be preserved.
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Offline Gramarye

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Re: Political Correctness
« Reply #1760 on: September 17, 2018, 01:04:11 PM »
Just want to follow up from last week to see if we're going to get this ever elusive definition of "American identity" that is so important to be preserved.

I think Brutus did an OK job at that impossible task.  This should be like defining a dog.  Yes, there may be some technically correct scientific definition, but the real answer is that people just get it.

Perhaps the closest other form of identity to the ones you seem to have no trouble grasping would be religious identity.  Somehow you seem to have the ability to recognize someone's identity as a Muslim or Christian without trying to do some kind of scientific breakdown of it, even though there are major differences within various forms of Christianity and Islam (including some in each case that have been the sparks for intra-identity wars).  National identity and religious identity are still not perfect analogues so I hesitate in making that comparison (and have hesitated for quite some time in answering this because I know there's nothing I can say that will actually satisfy you, so I do this more for my own benefit--sharpening my own thoughts).  But I still have trouble with the fact that you can ostensibly recognize race, sex, gender, class, and religious identities without me needing to hold your hand but struggle with national identities.

Offline 327

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Re: Political Correctness
« Reply #1761 on: September 17, 2018, 01:26:12 PM »
All those other identities are measurable and clearly defined.  Nations are made-up entities and no one has ever agreed on how they all fit together.  America is rare among nations in defining itself as an idea or set of ideas.  It's almost something you do rather than something you are.

Offline Gramarye

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Re: Political Correctness
« Reply #1762 on: September 17, 2018, 01:30:52 PM »
All those other identities are measurable and clearly defined.  Nations are made-up entities and no one has ever agreed on how they all fit together.  America is rare among nations in defining itself as an idea or set of ideas.  It's almost something you do rather than something you are.

A fair point, but for this point I'm willing to conflate doing and acting, in the same way that an immigrant is someone who immigrates.  Obviously that doesn't work for "born" identities (a man is not someone who "mans" and a Hispanic is not someone who "Hispanics"), but hence my rough analogue to religious identities.  A religious identity is generally going to be defined by some combination of action and belief/state-of-being, not all one or the other.  (Again, generally.)

EDIT: But like I said, it was an impossible task and I ought to emphasize that again, since against my better judgment, I weighed in on it rather than ignoring and/or moderating the bump-nagging like I probably should have done.  If you struggle with the concept of national identity, an Internet message board conversation isn't exactly likely about to bring about a burst of enlightenment.

EDIT 2: Also, I really shouldn't say that all those other identities are "clearly defined."  Religious identities are not exactly easily pinned down.  We generally accept people's self-identification as Catholic even if they certainly don't practice or preach the full spectrum of the Catechism, and even if they go to church twice a year or less.  I'm guessing that we would be similarly forgiving of Muslim or Jewish or Hindu self-identification regardless of practice.  Some Eastern "religions" are the subject of lively amateur philosophical-theological debates as to whether they're religions at all (Buddhism being the usual subject but hardly the only one).

And even on the racial side, the definition of "Hispanic" has shifted with the political winds over the generations, including in official census definitions.
« Last Edit: September 17, 2018, 01:39:14 PM by Gramarye »

Offline DarkandStormy

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Re: Political Correctness
« Reply #1763 on: September 17, 2018, 01:31:36 PM »
Just want to follow up from last week to see if we're going to get this ever elusive definition of "American identity" that is so important to be preserved.

I think Brutus did an OK job at that impossible task.  This should be like defining a dog.  Yes, there may be some technically correct scientific definition, but the real answer is that people just get it.

This is a bullsh** non-answer.  I'm not sure how I'm supposed to help you preserve this American identity if you can't define it other than "we're a big family" and "people just get it."
Very Stable Genius

Offline 327

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Re: Political Correctness
« Reply #1764 on: September 17, 2018, 03:16:49 PM »
Religions, like nations, are arbitrary.  So are the lines between them.  Even the definition of religion is arbitrary, it seems.  In some nations the state tells you what religion you are.  In America you get to pick.  That's one of our defining ideals. 

Offline jonoh81

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Re: Political Correctness
« Reply #1765 on: September 17, 2018, 03:57:39 PM »
Religions, like nations, are arbitrary.  So are the lines between them.  Even the definition of religion is arbitrary, it seems.  In some nations the state tells you what religion you are.  In America you get to pick.  That's one of our defining ideals.

That is also true in a hundred other nations and not unique to the US. 

Offline Gramarye

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Re: Political Correctness
« Reply #1766 on: September 17, 2018, 05:54:40 PM »
Religions, like nations, are arbitrary.  So are the lines between them.  Even the definition of religion is arbitrary, it seems.  In some nations the state tells you what religion you are.  In America you get to pick.  That's one of our defining ideals. 

How are religion and nationality arbitrary?  I'd concede that they're not inborn or biological, of course, but arbitrary?  As in solely a matter of opinion, dependent solely on an unconstrained individual will or caprice?  I don't think that establishing that religion and nationality are not inborn or biological takes you all the way to the conclusion that they're arbitrary.

Are we really going to the full relativist position that there is absolutely no non-arbitrary difference between Christianity and atheism or Islam, no non-arbitrary difference between being French, Syrian, or American?

Offline 327

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Re: Political Correctness
« Reply #1767 on: September 17, 2018, 07:30:40 PM »
Some people around Russia's periphery believe they're Russian.  But only some.  China believes itself to include Taiwan and Tibet.  Who decided the Kurds aren't a nation?  Who decides the tenets of the one true sect of the one true faith?  Whoever wins the fight, that's who.  Arbitrary.

Offline Ram23

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Re: Political Correctness
« Reply #1768 on: September 17, 2018, 10:49:32 PM »
^ There's nothing arbitrary about who wins a fight. Every living thing on Earth has sorted itself out in such a manner for billions of years.

Offline Robuu

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Re: Political Correctness
« Reply #1769 on: September 18, 2018, 10:13:25 AM »
The boundaries of religious categorizations are fuzzy. For example, I remember a preacher on campus when I was at UC shouting about Catholics being polytheists. Which, if true, would disqualify them from being Christians. But then again they descend straight from the disciple Paul, so if they aren't Christians, who is? I suppose only the Christian God can decide, objectively. But if society decided to assume the view of the preacher, for all intents and purposes they wouldn't be Christians. the reason for the choice wouldn't be relevant, and in that sense the categorization is arbitrary.

^ There's nothing arbitrary about who wins a fight. Every living thing on Earth has sorted itself out in such a manner for billions of years.

From a moral perspective, "might makes right" is an arbitrary method for deciding something. Yet it's this manner by which we've been given the categories of people which PC proponents wish to defend. These identifiers wouldn't be significant had the mighty not created them as tools of division.