Author Topic: The Trump Presidency  (Read 442693 times)

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Online freefourur

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #19140 on: July 11, 2018, 02:49:44 PM »
The burden of maintaining peace in the Western World falls increasingly on the backs of the American taxpayer. There's no reason this burden shoudln't be shared relatively evenly by all NATO country taxpayers.

As for doubling the target goal to 4% of GDP - it's simple  the "America First" strategy at play. If our allies double their military expenditures, they would likely buy tons of American military hardware. It's a win-win.

On a side note, it's interesting to see you guys try to twist NATO nations' potentially doubling military spending in Europe to being exactly what Putin wants.

You seem to be calling on the US to decrease military spending but yet Trump boasts about increasing it?  Please explain.

Offline ryanlammi

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #19141 on: July 11, 2018, 02:51:13 PM »
How does expanding the military industrial complex create a win-win?

Because theoretically we have to spend less on our military (we'll keep spending more, though), and we sell a bunch of fighter jets and guns to other countries, thus making a profit.

I also don't think he's doing Putin's bidding at his request. But I do think Trump's incredibly insecure and wants to be viewed as a strong president, so he keeps pushing our allies away because he knows they won't completely sever ties with us. He's definitely helping Putin by strengthening right-wing extremists in Europe and hurting trust in Democracy and Western institutions like NATO and the UN at the same time. This all helps Putin's agenda.

Online freefourur

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #19142 on: July 11, 2018, 02:51:39 PM »
Why are we so laser focused on GDP % spending on defense?

It was the measure to which all the head's of state of NATO countries agreed to focus on in the declaration linked above.  Every country agreed to spend at least 2% of their GDP on their military - now whether or not you're "obligated" to do something you say you will do in a signed declaration is, apparently, up for debate - but the reality is not many are even attempting to do what they said they would do, and that's a problem.

There is no problem with asking these countries to increase their spending. But as it's been established, it is not required and they are not "cheating" or "freeloading."  Those are the types of terms that Putin and his puppets would use to describe our allies.
« Last Edit: July 11, 2018, 02:53:40 PM by freefourur »

Offline eastvillagedon

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #19143 on: July 11, 2018, 02:58:33 PM »
Why are we so laser focused on GDP % spending on defense?

It was the measure to which all the head's of state of NATO countries agreed to focus on in the declaration linked above.  Every country agreed to spend at least 2% of their GDP on their military - now whether or not you're "obligated" to do something you say you will do in a signed declaration is, apparently, up for debate - but the reality is not many are even attempting to do what they said they would do, and that's a problem.

There is no problem with asking these countries to increase their spending. But as it's been established, it is not required and they are not "cheating" of "freeloading."  Those are the types of terms that Putin and his puppets would use to describe our allies.

If you regularly go out to dinner with a friend who habitually pays only a fraction of the bill, instead of the full price for the food and beverage that he ordered, would you find that to be a problem?

Online freefourur

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #19144 on: July 11, 2018, 03:00:51 PM »
If that's what were happening here you'd have a point.  The analogy would be that I spend 20% of my income going out to dinner.  But my friend only spends 5% of his income doing so.  We may have agreed that we should both try to spend 20%.  That doesn;t make him a freeloader because I haven't asked him to pay for 50% of dinners whenever we go.  You seem to have the same pedestrian understanding of the agreement as Putin's puppet.


I posted this earlier but you must not have read it so I copied the pertinent part. 

Do NATO allies owe the United States money?
“Many of these nations owe massive amounts of money from past years and not paying in those past years,” Mr. Trump said.

No. This is not a matter of members failing to pay dues. The allies arguably may have less capable militaries than they should have, but none of them owe anyone anything. “Europe may owe itself; it certainly owes nothing to the U.S.,” said Ivo Daalder, a former ambassador to NATO under Mr. Obama.
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/05/26/world/europe/nato-trump-spending.html
« Last Edit: July 11, 2018, 03:03:06 PM by freefourur »

Online mu2010

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #19145 on: July 11, 2018, 03:08:18 PM »
And it's not like the US would actually cut military spending if European countries started spending more.

Online freefourur

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #19146 on: July 11, 2018, 03:09:15 PM »
This has nothing to do with getting them to pay.  It's a pretext to dissolve the alliance.  Trump's master wants it done.

Offline Gramarye

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #19147 on: July 11, 2018, 03:09:37 PM »
It's true that NATO doesn't "owe" in the sense of it should write the US a check.  But that word has other definitions.

Online mu2010

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #19148 on: July 11, 2018, 03:09:40 PM »
It's just a way for Trump to beat up on people that his base doesn't like. Hard right Americans don't like Europe. Therefore, Trump bashes Europe and they love him for it. It's all a big show.

Online freefourur

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #19149 on: July 11, 2018, 03:11:48 PM »
^ but hard right people love them some white nationalist Russia. 

Online freefourur

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #19150 on: July 11, 2018, 03:12:46 PM »
It's true that NATO doesn't "owe" in the sense of it should write the US a check.  But that word has other definitions.

Trump and his followers are using the word "owe" in that context though.

Online KJP

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #19151 on: July 11, 2018, 03:14:53 PM »
I concur that nations should adhere to obligations they agree to (that goes for the US too -- Paris Climate Accord, international humanitarian accords, etc.). My belief is that the original agreement is in error. The over-militarized USA should not be trying to push other nations to be militaristic (the 2% agreement occurred under Obama's watch). Moving the goal posts to 4% is completely uncalled for.
"Treat this (November 2018) election as if it's the last election in which you can fully exercise your democratic rights. Because it just might be." -- Margy Waller.

Online YABO713

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #19152 on: July 11, 2018, 03:16:56 PM »
It's true that NATO doesn't "owe" in the sense of it should write the US a check.  But that word has other definitions.

NATO has never made monetary sense on paper for the US. However, it pays for itself ten-fold in bargained for influence in Western and Central Europe, hell even to Turkey.

When General Mattis is scrambling to undo the President's words, when Mattis is honor bound to uphold the orders of the commander-in-chief, you kind of realize NATO's importance.

Online YABO713

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #19153 on: July 11, 2018, 03:17:47 PM »
Why are we so laser focused on GDP % spending on defense?

It was the measure to which all the head's of state of NATO countries agreed to focus on in the declaration linked above.  Every country agreed to spend at least 2% of their GDP on their military - now whether or not you're "obligated" to do something you say you will do in a signed declaration is, apparently, up for debate - but the reality is not many are even attempting to do what they said they would do, and that's a problem.

There is no problem with asking these countries to increase their spending. But as it's been established, it is not required and they are not "cheating" of "freeloading."  Those are the types of terms that Putin and his puppets would use to describe our allies.

If you regularly go out to dinner with a friend who habitually pays only a fraction of the bill, instead of the full price for the food and beverage that he ordered, would you find that to be a problem?

Not if the only reason I continually take that friend out is to keep him happy with the fact that I'm having constant relations with his sister...

Offline audidave

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #19154 on: July 11, 2018, 03:20:16 PM »
Its interesting the projection trump uses saying that Germany is controlled by Russia because 70% of their energy comes from Russia via gas pipelines.  Germans came back and said that actual figure is 9%.   I think Trumpís allegiance to Putin is 70%.

Offline eastvillagedon

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #19155 on: July 11, 2018, 03:22:22 PM »
Why are we so laser focused on GDP % spending on defense?

It was the measure to which all the head's of state of NATO countries agreed to focus on in the declaration linked above.  Every country agreed to spend at least 2% of their GDP on their military - now whether or not you're "obligated" to do something you say you will do in a signed declaration is, apparently, up for debate - but the reality is not many are even attempting to do what they said they would do, and that's a problem.

There is no problem with asking these countries to increase their spending. But as it's been established, it is not required and they are not "cheating" of "freeloading."  Those are the types of terms that Putin and his puppets would use to describe our allies.

If you regularly go out to dinner with a friend who habitually pays only a fraction of the bill, instead of the full price for the food and beverage that he ordered, would you find that to be a problem?

Not if the only reason I continually take that friend out is to keep him happy with the fact that I'm having constant relations with his sister...
:P

Offline Ram23

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #19156 on: July 11, 2018, 03:26:52 PM »
If that's what were happening here you'd have a point.  The analogy would be that I spend 20% of my income going out to dinner.  But my friend only spends 5% of his income doing so.  We may have agreed that we should both try to spend 20%.  That doesn;t make him a freeloader because I haven't asked him to pay for 50% of dinners whenever we go.

The first analogy made more sense. In yours, you nor your friend share the benefits of the others' dinner, whereas with NATO, all countries equally enjoy the benefits of their combined military power. In fact, that's why many countries have lowered defense spending - they know the US will have their back so they see no need to spend much of their own money.

Online freefourur

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #19157 on: July 11, 2018, 03:36:09 PM »
If that's what were happening here you'd have a point.  The analogy would be that I spend 20% of my income going out to dinner.  But my friend only spends 5% of his income doing so.  We may have agreed that we should both try to spend 20%.  That doesn;t make him a freeloader because I haven't asked him to pay for 50% of dinners whenever we go.

The first analogy made more sense. In yours, you nor your friend share the benefits of the others' dinner, whereas with NATO, all countries equally enjoy the benefits of their combined military power. In fact, that's why many countries have lowered defense spending - they know the US will have their back so they see no need to spend much of their own money.

I will always take my friend's side though because I am not beholden to his enemy unlike Dear Leader.  Because i realize that I benefit from the friendship too by way of my relations with his sister.
« Last Edit: July 11, 2018, 03:39:30 PM by freefourur »

Online YABO713

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #19158 on: July 11, 2018, 03:43:43 PM »
If that's what were happening here you'd have a point.  The analogy would be that I spend 20% of my income going out to dinner.  But my friend only spends 5% of his income doing so.  We may have agreed that we should both try to spend 20%.  That doesn;t make him a freeloader because I haven't asked him to pay for 50% of dinners whenever we go.

The first analogy made more sense. In yours, you nor your friend share the benefits of the others' dinner, whereas with NATO, all countries equally enjoy the benefits of their combined military power. In fact, that's why many countries have lowered defense spending - they know the US will have their back so they see no need to spend much of their own money.

And the most important rule of politics, my friend: Nothing is more expensive than free.

The US has unbelievable leverage with our allies that afford us influence in shaping policy. The European Union is essentially an American propelled experiment. And, no countries in the Eurozone have ever gone to war since the EU's inception. This, through the lens of European history is f**king remarkable. Integration through NATO and the EU's joint defense saves us money in the long term by not having to come to the aid of an ally or intervene in a conflict between high population density, well-armed countries.

Offline audidave

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #19159 on: July 11, 2018, 04:07:06 PM »
I donít think anyone is saying that there isnít a valid reason for the other NATO nations to not raise their spending. Obama brought this up as well.  The issue is with Trump he has more of a tendency to take all his marbles home. The Senate put him on notice that he canít do that yesterday with their 97-2 vote. There is such a thing as a peace subsidy. That counts way more than the measly half to one percent that Greece is not providing.

Offline X

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #19160 on: July 11, 2018, 04:36:29 PM »
Hey now, Greece is one of the NATO allies that is making the 2% mark!

Offline DarkandStormy

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #19161 on: July 11, 2018, 04:39:40 PM »
https://lawandcrime.com/immigration/trump-admin-records-show-family-separated-at-border-might-be-u-s-citizens/

Quote
The Trump administrationís zero tolerance border policy may have led to the government separating a family of U.S. citizens. In a recent court filing, Immigration and Customs Enforcement admitted as much.

Cool, cool.
Very Stable Genius

Offline DarkandStormy

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #19162 on: July 11, 2018, 05:15:45 PM »
Putin has NATO in disarray, GOP members of Congress talking down his attack on our democracy, US standing abroad in free fall, and a summit with the US President that will upstage the western alliance.

Pretty good ROI for him.
Very Stable Genius

Online YABO713

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #19163 on: July 11, 2018, 05:32:07 PM »
Putin has NATO in disarray, GOP members of Congress talking down his attack on our democracy, US standing abroad in free fall, and a summit with the US President that will upstage the western alliance.

Pretty good ROI for him.

Yeah, wonder which candidate he preferred...

Offline DarkandStormy

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #19164 on: July 11, 2018, 05:47:05 PM »
https://twitter.com/NumbersMuncher/status/1017144606436331520

Quote
Watch John Kelly reacting as Trump bashes Germany.

The White House said Kelly looked upset not because of Trump, but he "was displeased because he was expecting a full breakfast and there were only pastries and cheese."

We are truly in the Idiocracy Presidency.
Very Stable Genius

Offline DarkandStormy

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #19165 on: July 11, 2018, 05:49:13 PM »
Very Stable Genius

Offline X

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #19166 on: July 11, 2018, 06:08:56 PM »
Germany really should be paying a higher % of their GDP to provide us with full breakfasts.

Offline Ram23

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #19167 on: July 11, 2018, 08:09:20 PM »
https://twitter.com/NumbersMuncher/status/1017144606436331520

Quote
Watch John Kelly reacting as Trump bashes Germany.

The White House said Kelly looked upset not because of Trump, but he "was displeased because he was expecting a full breakfast and there were only pastries and cheese."

We are truly in the Idiocracy Presidency.

Mike Pompeo went to North Korea and got a 3 hour long ordeal of a breakfast - John Kelly has every right to be upset about pastries and cheese. Continental breakfasts are for Holiday Inns, not NATO summits.

Online freefourur

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #19168 on: July 11, 2018, 08:34:29 PM »
I mean, they serve continental breakfasts on the continent.  Everyone knows that.

Online freefourur

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #19169 on: July 11, 2018, 08:59:16 PM »