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Author Topic: The Trump Presidency  (Read 62335 times)

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Offline Hootenany

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #11880 on: December 07, 2017, 09:46:16 AM »
I do find it interesting how much of the mainstream media is painting this as a shocking and ill advised maneuver. It was a Trump campaign promise (granted, we aren't used to politicians actually following through with those), and was ordered by Congress over 20 years ago.  It's a small step for America, in favor of one of our greatest allies.

What exactly do we get out of our relationship with Israel, "one of our greatest allies?"  Lots of orders for military equipment?

Offline freefourur

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #11881 on: December 07, 2017, 09:52:37 AM »
The greatest negotiator gave away Jerusalem for nothing just like TPP.

Offline DarkandStormy

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #11882 on: December 07, 2017, 10:26:21 AM »
https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2017/11/20/16670484/jared-kushner-russia-scandal-wikileaks

Quote
In July, Kushner had told congressional investigators that he couldn’t recall any communication between the campaign and WikiLeaks — an assertion that’s at odds with what the committee now knows.

This is far from the first time that crucial pieces of information about Kushner’s Russia ties or business holdings seem to have mysteriously escaped his memory.

He failed to include the names of more than 100 foreign officials whom he met with in the years before joining the White House on his application for national security clearance — including top Russian officials. He’s had to change his financial disclosure forms detailing his divestment from his business empire at least 39 times. He’s neglected to mention the Russian technology magnate that owns a stake in a company he co-owns. And when he offers explanations for the oversights, they’re loaded with deflections such as when he said that a busy schedule and email overload made it hard for him to remember communications with foreign officials.

https://twitter.com/twitter/statuses/938619176943529985

Offline eastvillagedon

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #11883 on: December 07, 2017, 01:21:36 PM »
The greatest negotiator gave away Jerusalem for nothing just like TPP.

I didn't know Jerusalem was anyone's to "give away." Trump merely acknowledged what's been a fact for over 3,000 years! Sorry so many are having such a hard time dealing with it. Sad :(

Offline freefourur

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #11884 on: December 07, 2017, 01:24:07 PM »
The recognition of Jerusalem as the capital is something the US just gave them. I'm sorry if you are as bad at recognizing bargaining chips as Trump.

Offline ColDayMan

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #11885 on: December 07, 2017, 02:07:26 PM »
The greatest negotiator gave away Jerusalem for nothing just like TPP.

I didn't know Jerusalem was anyone's to "give away." Trump merely acknowledged what's been a fact for over 3,000 years! Sorry so many are having such a hard time dealing with it. Sad :(

You do realize that Jerusalem has only been the "capital" of Israel since 1949, not 3,000 years.  Before then, Jerusalem has been passed around more times than Elizabeth Taylor's husbands.

"You don't just walk into a bar and mix it up by calling a girl fat" - buildingcincinnati speaking about new forumers

Offline eastvillagedon

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #11886 on: December 07, 2017, 02:24:05 PM »
huh?? well, yes, of course modern day Israel officially started in 1949, but you do realize that it's an ancient civilization going back thousands of years. Either that or the history of the Jews as found in the Bible--and in countless other scholarly texts--is a giant hoax. Wow, a lot of people have been duped. No wonder the educational system is failing us. I want my money back! :'(

Offline ColDayMan

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #11887 on: December 07, 2017, 02:26:37 PM »
huh?? well, yes, of course modern day Israel officially started in 1949, but you do realize that it's an ancient civilization going back thousands of years. Either that or the history of the Jews as found in the Bible--and in countless other scholarly texts--is a giant hoax. Wow, a lot of people have been duped. No wonder the educational system is failing us. I want my money back! :'(

I literally posted an educational chart above your post to show that ISRAEL hasn't "owned" Jerusalem except for a VERY short time in history.  Biblical Israel only existed for 500 years.  And please, keep your money.
"You don't just walk into a bar and mix it up by calling a girl fat" - buildingcincinnati speaking about new forumers

Offline freefourur

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #11888 on: December 07, 2017, 02:27:22 PM »
^^ are you saying that all lands that could be claimed by ancient people are rightfully theirs and should be returned immediately?

Offline mu2010

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #11889 on: December 07, 2017, 02:33:59 PM »
huh?? well, yes, of course modern day Israel officially started in 1949, but you do realize that it's an ancient civilization going back thousands of years. Either that or the history of the Jews as found in the Bible--and in countless other scholarly texts--is a giant hoax. Wow, a lot of people have been duped. No wonder the educational system is failing us. I want my money back! :'(

It's not only about who controlled it, the Jewish population in the area was quite small 100-200 years ago, with almost no Jews in the area during the middle ages, they'd all gone to Europe after the Romans expelled them and destroyed the temple at the time of Christ. Then Zionism became a thing and Jews started migrating to the area say 150 years ago with it really picking up steam 100 years ago. So yes, Jewish civilization is thousands of years old, and born in that area, but Jewish presence in that area has a pretty big gap in the middle. So it's not accurate to say that Jerusalem has been their capital for 3,000 years. They didn't have a capital for thousands of years, which is the entire reason Israel was established.
« Last Edit: December 07, 2017, 02:40:11 PM by mu2010 »

Offline Gramarye

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #11890 on: December 07, 2017, 02:42:45 PM »
freef, I think evd made a fair point about your use of the term "gave away."  Whoever's it might be to give, it certainly isn't Trump's (or America's).

evd, you make a fair point that Jerusalem isn't America's to give away.  But ColDayMan also made a fair point that while it's not ours and never has been, it certainly has belonged to a lot of others over the years, including both before and after the ancient Hebrew kingdom of the same name.

It's the Middle East.  Historical claims are a dime a dozen.  Everyone and their brother has one.  They're useful only to justify the wars that actually decide who wields power at any given moment; they have no force in and of themselves.  If the Ottoman Empire had survived WWI, we probably wouldn't be having this discussion (and if we were, it would most likely be because of a hypothetical future Ottoman misstep getting involved with Germany in WWII, also losing, and getting carved up after WWII instead of after WWI).

Even worldwide, we don't generally trace historical claims to whatever advanced ape was the first to set foot on the virgin soil of any given patch of ground after whenever Homo sapiens appeared in the fossil records.

Offline eastvillagedon

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #11891 on: December 07, 2017, 02:46:03 PM »
not being Jewish, I'll let the mayor of Jerusalem speak for Jerusalem--


Offline freefourur

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #11892 on: December 07, 2017, 02:53:34 PM »
^ the mayor of jerusalem doesn't get to dictate american policy.

Offline freefourur

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #11893 on: December 07, 2017, 03:01:02 PM »
It's interesting that at today's press conference, Sarah Sanders stated that President hasn't determined whether US will participate in 2018 Olympics citing security concerns.  Funny, there were no concerns about this until Russia was banned.  Vlad is totally in control of his puppet.

Offline eastvillagedon

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #11894 on: December 07, 2017, 03:04:45 PM »


It's the Middle East.  Historical claims are a dime a dozen.  Everyone and their brother has one.
well, yes, historical claims are a dime a dozen, but that doesn't mean they're all equally valid. You have to weigh all the evidence and then decide whose claims have the ring of truth, based on past precedent. Let's say I visited your grandmother's house once when I was a child and she gave me a snack and was nice to me, and years later she dies intestate. As your family figures out how to proceed with this situation, I come forward and try to claim a portion of your grandmother's estate based on her act kindness to me from decades earlier. How ridiculous would that be? It would be laughed out of court. The historical precedent for Israel's claims seem to far outweigh those of competing groups. This shouldn't be that hard to determine.

Offline eastvillagedon

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #11895 on: December 07, 2017, 03:14:43 PM »
^ the mayor of jerusalem doesn't get to dictate american policy.

He's not. Moving the US embassy to Jerusalem has been American policy for 22 years--

The Jerusalem Embassy Act of 1995[1] is a public law of the United States passed by the 104th Congress on October 23, 1995. It was passed for the purposes of initiating and funding the relocation of the Embassy of the United States in Israel from Tel Aviv to Jerusalem, no later than May 31, 1999, and attempted to withhold 50 percent of the funds appropriated to the State Department specifically for "Acquisition and Maintenance of Buildings Abroad" as allocated in fiscal year 1999 until the United States Embassy in Jerusalem had officially opened.[2] The act also called for Jerusalem to remain an undivided city and for it to be recognized as the capital of the State of Israel. Israel's declared capital is Jerusalem, but this is not internationally recognized, pending final status talks in the Israeli–Palestinian conflict. The proposed law was adopted by the Senate (93–5),[3] and the House (374–37).[4]

Despite passage, the law remained unimplemented by Presidents Clinton, Bush, and Obama,[5] who viewed it as a Congressional infringement on the executive branch's constitutional authority over foreign policy; they consistently claimed the presidential waiver on national security interests. President Donald Trump signed the waiver in June 2017 before announcing the recognition of Jerusalem in December 2017 and beginning the relocation of the embassy.[6][7]

Offline freefourur

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #11896 on: December 07, 2017, 03:17:16 PM »
This seems like an interesting part of what you posted:

pending final status talks in the Israeli–Palestinian conflict

Offline Gramarye

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #11897 on: December 07, 2017, 03:21:55 PM »


It's the Middle East.  Historical claims are a dime a dozen.  Everyone and their brother has one.
well, yes, historical claims are a dime a dozen, but that doesn't mean they're all equally valid. You have to weigh all the evidence and then decide whose claims have the ring of truth, based on past precedent. Let's say I visited your grandmother's house once when I was a child and she gave me a snack and was nice to me, and years later she dies intestate. As your family figures out how to proceed with this situation, I come forward and try to claim a portion of your grandmother's estate based on her act kindness to me from decades earlier. How ridiculous would that be? It would be laughed out of court. The historical precedent for Israel's claims seem to far outweigh those of competing groups. This shouldn't be that hard to determine.

Not that hard?  Just going by the chart CDM posted, what makes the ancient Israeli claim so abundantly clearly superior to the Egyptian, Persian, Macedonian, or even Roman claims?  Or to the shorter-lived Neo-Assyrian or Neo-Babylonian claims (which, while shorter, would have the advantage of being at least a bit more indigenous than the Persian or southern European claims)?

Offline eastvillagedon

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #11898 on: December 07, 2017, 03:44:02 PM »
^


It's the Middle East.  Historical claims are a dime a dozen.  Everyone and their brother has one.
well, yes, historical claims are a dime a dozen, but that doesn't mean they're all equally valid. You have to weigh all the evidence and then decide whose claims have the ring of truth, based on past precedent. Let's say I visited your grandmother's house once when I was a child and she gave me a snack and was nice to me, and years later she dies intestate. As your family figures out how to proceed with this situation, I come forward and try to claim a portion of your grandmother's estate based on her act kindness to me from decades earlier. How ridiculous would that be? It would be laughed out of court. The historical precedent for Israel's claims seem to far outweigh those of competing groups. This shouldn't be that hard to determine.

Not that hard?  Just going by the chart CDM posted, what makes the ancient Israeli claim so abundantly clearly superior to the Egyptian, Persian, Macedonian, or even Roman claims?  Or to the shorter-lived Neo-Assyrian or Neo-Babylonian claims (which, while shorter, would have the advantage of being at least a bit more indigenous than the Persian or southern European claims)?

which one of the groups you mentioned ever had the land of Israel as their homeland? The answer is obvious, but since they're overlooked, I propose, based on what I see in the chart, to create a homeland for the collective Rashidun-Umayyad-Abbasid-Fatimid-Seljuq people. They just never got the respect they deserved by the world community back in...ohhh...510 - 1100AD ::)

Offline Gramarye

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #11899 on: December 07, 2017, 04:14:37 PM »
That answer is not obvious to me at all.  So the Byzantines didn't have "Israel" as their homeland?  That kingdom had been dissolved centuries before they came along; they weren't about to reconstitute it just to rule over it.  That doesn't mean they wouldn't view it as rightfully theirs every bit as much as America now views Wisconsin as rightfully America's, notwithstanding that it's not the capital or anything of that nature.

Also, even just among the groups you mentioned as being other groups that also claimed that area as their homeland, not all of them are Arabic.  The Seljuqs were Turks, and I'm pretty sure they wouldn't have considered Jerusalem their "homeland" in the way you're using the term.

Offline edale

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #11900 on: December 07, 2017, 04:50:58 PM »

well, yes, historical claims are a dime a dozen, but that doesn't mean they're all equally valid. You have to weigh all the evidence and then decide whose claims have the ring of truth, based on past precedent. Let's say I visited your grandmother's house once when I was a child and she gave me a snack and was nice to me, and years later she dies intestate. As your family figures out how to proceed with this situation, I come forward and try to claim a portion of your grandmother's estate based on her act kindness to me from decades earlier. How ridiculous would that be? It would be laughed out of court. The historical precedent for Israel's claims seem to far outweigh those of competing groups. This shouldn't be that hard to determine.

By this logic, should America be returned to the Native Americans? Europeans 'visited' land that was controlled by native peoples. Native Americans proceeded to give them snacks and be nice to them. Europeans wipe out the majority of Natives through murder, disease, and forced relocation, and then claim the land as their own. How ridiculous is that?

Offline Hootenany

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #11901 on: December 07, 2017, 05:21:43 PM »
^Perhaps the Moors have a claim to most of the Iberian Penninsula.  I mean, they did control the Southern portion for about 700 years and would probably consider Cordoba their historic capital.

By the way, visit the Alhambra if you get a chance.  It's beautiful.

Offline KJP

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #11902 on: December 07, 2017, 07:52:46 PM »
Fox News Has a Headline that reads:

'The Mueller Investigation Is Illegitimate and Corrupt'

Note that earlier this morning Trump promoted a Fox News anchor's book.

This is as close to a Quid Pro Quo as you can get.... Trump Promotes Books for Fox, they then attack Mueller.
America will never be destroyed from the outside. -- Abraham Lincoln.

Offline KJP

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #11903 on: December 07, 2017, 07:55:51 PM »
I find this strange, considering how he usually has such a complex, nuanced grasp of complicated international affairs...

Trump didn't seem to have complete understanding of Jerusalem decision: report
http://thehill.com/homenews/administration/363703-trump-didnt-seem-to-have-complete-understanding-of-jerusalem-decision
America will never be destroyed from the outside. -- Abraham Lincoln.

Offline KJP

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #11904 on: December 07, 2017, 08:38:58 PM »
Greedy f*ckers suck....

TRUMP WANTS YOU TO TIP RESTAURANT OWNERS, NOT SERVERS
http://www.newsweek.com/trump-wants-you-tip-restaurant-owners-not-servers-740792
America will never be destroyed from the outside. -- Abraham Lincoln.

Offline KJP

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #11905 on: December 07, 2017, 09:24:21 PM »
Because if Russia can't participate, USA shouldn't either (says Putin to his Trumpuppy)....

Trump officials cast uncertainty about U.S. competing in South Korea Olympics
https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/olympics/white-house-says-no-official-decision-yet-on-us-competing-in-korean-olympics/2017/12/07/7b75b1e2-db7e-11e7-b1a8-62589434a581_story.html
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Offline KJP

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #11906 on: December 08, 2017, 09:09:44 AM »
In Donald Trump's America, more people claim 'American' ancestry on census forms. Especially the case in some counties from southern Ohio to Florida Panhandle. Details @clevelanddotcom  https://t.co/OzyuikTY1I
America will never be destroyed from the outside. -- Abraham Lincoln.

Offline Gramarye

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #11907 on: December 08, 2017, 10:11:10 AM »
In Donald Trump's America, more people claim 'American' ancestry on census forms. Especially the case in some counties from southern Ohio to Florida Panhandle. Details @clevelanddotcom  https://t.co/OzyuikTY1I

I definitely consider this a good thing, and I fully intend to encourage my mixed-race children to coopt this trend (even if at least some of those currently expanding it might have in their minds the thought that that's not the point).  At the moment, if my children claim any other ancestry than "American," they need about four hyphens.  It's ridiculous.  We're closing in on 250 years old as a country now.  At some point, we get to have an unhyphenated identity of our own.

Offline freefourur

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #11908 on: December 08, 2017, 10:18:24 AM »
^ I see no issue with American or hyphenated American as an identity.  My family is only one generation removed so we use the hyphen. But my wife's family is 3 generations on one side and many on the other.  My kids will likely not use a hyphen.

Offline Ram23

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #11909 on: December 08, 2017, 10:38:34 AM »
I'm no more than 1/4 any specific ancestry. It has always seemed nonsensical that I'm supposed to pick one of those to identify as.

On a side note, some of this probably just as to do with record keeping. 1/4 of my ancestry is unknown because I have a grandparent who was adopted as a baby, from a poor rural Appalachian county that did not keep proper records. I have to imagine a lot of people in such areas are in similar predicaments (which aligns well with the map above). If you don't know/don't have records of your ancestry, defaulting to "American" is the logical choice.