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Author Topic: Voting  (Read 1758 times)

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Offline ryanlammi

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Re: Voting
« Reply #150 on: August 16, 2017, 09:21:36 AM »
I like how EVD pretends 130 million ballots in the USPS would somehow overload the system. They process 506.4 million pieces of mail every day. Give people a few weeks to vote by mail. It won't shut down the whole thing. If you still want to vote in person early or in person on election day, that should still be an option.
« Last Edit: August 16, 2017, 09:21:53 AM by ryanlammi »

Offline GCrites80s

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Re: Voting
« Reply #151 on: August 16, 2017, 09:58:53 AM »
The USPS needs the seasonal help to get ready for Christmas anyway.

Offline DarkandStormy

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Re: Voting
« Reply #152 on: August 16, 2017, 10:20:51 AM »
Every time I waste brain cells trying to comprehend whatever "argument" EVD is spewing off:


Offline TBideon

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Re: Voting
« Reply #153 on: August 16, 2017, 10:50:19 AM »


Do you also think that absentee ballots should be eliminated? Anyone that's out of the state or out of the country must return to their home precinct to cast their vote on Election Day?
wow, the Board of Elections people in Hamilton Co. can actually do that? In New York they're basically functionally illiterate. When did I suggest that absentee voting should be eliminated? That's a legitimate use for people living outside the country or disabled people, not for people who can get off of their duff and function normally on a day-to-day basis. Why don't we have online voting? You'll never have to leave the house!

About 99 percent of what you're saying is just bizarre and not worth even arguing (you seriously support restricting voting to just one day a year? Are you even reading your own statements?) But then you start making sense at the end. Why can't we have online voting with highly encrypted, dedicated servers when it works (mostly) well for e-commerce. All the money that we put into in-person funding should be directed into the infrastructure required for secure online voting.
« Last Edit: August 16, 2017, 10:53:07 AM by TBideon »

Offline Ram23

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Re: Voting
« Reply #154 on: August 16, 2017, 11:01:42 AM »
^ With all the "Russiagate" allegations flying around in the wake of 2016, no one would ever trust the legitimacy of any sort of online voting, no matter how secure it was. The party that lost the first presidential election online would never shut up about it having been hacked. And there would always be some risk - anything connected to the internet can be hacked, and a target as juicy as an election would be ripe for attempts. There's a reason the most important information and equipment is always air gapped - it's the only surefire way to keep it safe from hacking.

I think the way Ohio votes is one of the most secure. The machines that scan/count ballots are air gapped, and bipartisan elections officials and volunteers are tasked with ensuring the counts. There's a physical ballot, as well, so there's a hard copy record should the digital results ever be questioned. The decentralization of voting locations is also key to security - to actually hack/change votes, someone would need physical access to equipment, and each location would only yield a couple thousand votes, so they'd need said access to dozens or hundreds of locations. It's simply not possible. If everyone mails in a ballot, or fills it out online, you open yourself up to all sorts of vulnerabilities. 

Offline taestell

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Re: Voting
« Reply #155 on: August 16, 2017, 11:15:06 AM »
I love the idea of online voting in theory and believe that a system could be developed that is far more secure than paper ballots. However I think the general public will not have confidence in a system that does not have a physical paper trail. I also think the public and the media will be worried that people will vote using other people's names, i.e., a teenager will get ahold of their parents logins and vote for them.
« Last Edit: August 16, 2017, 11:15:31 AM by taestell »

Offline Hts121

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Re: Voting
« Reply #156 on: August 16, 2017, 12:25:54 PM »
I fail to see how early voting is more susceptible to fraud than absentee balloting.

Offline Brutus_buckeye

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Re: Voting
« Reply #157 on: August 16, 2017, 12:32:04 PM »
^ The only way it could be is if you allow same day, on site, registration. Otherwise, I don't see how it matters either.

Offline taestell

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Re: Voting
« Reply #158 on: August 16, 2017, 12:46:35 PM »
I still fail to see the risk. If the same process is being followed with every person who registers to vote, why does it matter if you're registering in advance or on the day of the election? Ohio even lets people who don't want to get off their duff register to vote online.

Offline eastvillagedon

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Re: Voting
« Reply #159 on: August 16, 2017, 12:59:57 PM »
all I'm saying is that if you just have voting for one day--as it has been traditionally done (I don't think anyone on this forum is so young to remember a time when that was not the case, right?)--everyone involved in the process is focused, within a narrow timeframe, on just getting the job done without the potential of ballots going astray (didn't they find a bunch of ballots magically stuffed in the back of a car trunk in one of Al Franken's elections, naturally in his favor?), tasks being duplicated through bureaucratic snafus, or just outright fraud that could be easier to hide if multiple weeks are available for voting.

Offline ryanlammi

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Re: Voting
« Reply #160 on: August 16, 2017, 01:39:51 PM »
^I like all of the statistics you brought with you to reinforce your beliefs that early voting makes our elections less secure. You've convinced me.

Offline eastvillagedon

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Re: Voting
« Reply #161 on: August 16, 2017, 01:45:36 PM »
^thanks, I was afraid I wasn't getting through to people. Some things are just common sense.

Offline Hts121

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Re: Voting
« Reply #162 on: August 16, 2017, 01:49:05 PM »
all I'm saying is that if you just have voting for one day--as it has been traditionally done (I don't think anyone on this forum is so young to remember a time when that was not the case, right?)--everyone involved in the process is focused, within a narrow timeframe, on just getting the job done without the potential of ballots going astray (didn't they find a bunch of ballots magically stuffed in the back of a car trunk in one of Al Franken's elections, naturally in his favor?), tasks being duplicated through bureaucratic snafus, or just outright fraud that could be easier to hide if multiple weeks are available for voting.

This sounds like nothing more than another attempt to restrict access and make it more difficult to vote.  Through court cases, supported by actual evidence (not anecdotal evidence or hypothesis), it has consistently been found that such efforts disproportionately affects the poor and minorities.  No surprise then that the GOP and its sympathizers seek to restrict voting in every way that they can.  The least they can do is be honest enough to admit their true intentions.  It's the same as gerrymandering.  A bunch of grown-ups trying to hide behind strawmen arguments.  Weak and pathetic.   

Offline Ram23

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Re: Voting
« Reply #163 on: August 16, 2017, 02:00:13 PM »
One of the key problems with voting early is that voters make their choices before they have all the relevant information (though, voters without all the info are a key component of Democratic base, so I see why they prefer expanding early voting). Some states allow people to vote a month and a half early - a lot can happen in a month and a half. I would have no problem with mail-in ballots being issued the Friday before election day, and an "alternate" election day on Saturday, for those who need it. But spreading out the voting over a month or two is a terrible idea, IMO, and fundamentally changes the meaning of an "election" - which has, up until the last decade, always been a measure of the populace's opinion at a fixed date in time. Most people (who aren't users of this forum) can and do change their mind over the course of a few months. For instance, if you asked me who to vote for Cincinnati Council right now, my answer would almost certainly be different than it will be when I vote in November.

Offline Brutus_buckeye

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Re: Voting
« Reply #164 on: August 16, 2017, 02:04:06 PM »
I still fail to see the risk. If the same process is being followed with every person who registers to vote, why does it matter if you're registering in advance or on the day of the election? Ohio even lets people who don't want to get off their duff register to vote online.

Just speculating here. and I have never registered and voted same day, so I do not know the process. But, theoretically, sending away your registration form gives you a chance to be vetted in case you are registered multiple places or have different aliases, etc.  Was not saying it is less secure, but I figured that could be a potential weakness to the system if you vote same day. However, I don't know for a fact.

Offline Hts121

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Re: Voting
« Reply #165 on: August 16, 2017, 02:06:21 PM »
^^Then those people shouldn't vote early.  For my part, I knew exactly who I was voting for in the past three elections, with no chance that I would change my mind.  So, since I was working the polls as an observer on election day to make sure no funny business occurred, I voted early in 2008 and 2012.  I was at the polls from 5am until 11pm on election day, so there was no way I could have made it to my precinct.  Instead, I just stopped by the Bd of Elections sometime that preceding month while I was in the downtown area.  I also brought a few friends who would've been iffy on whether they shoed up on election day since their work schedules are so unpredictable.

The mental gymnastics going on here by those advocating for further restrictions on the right to vote is very revealing.

Under you 'same day' theory, how would you deal with members of the military stationed overseas?  They vote through absentee ballots and have to make their selections well ahead of election day.  They don't get to wait for the last minute bombshell dropped by Russian hackers or anyone else.
« Last Edit: August 16, 2017, 02:09:42 PM by Hts121 »

Offline eastvillagedon

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Re: Voting
« Reply #166 on: August 16, 2017, 02:16:28 PM »
oh, right, the Russian "hacker" story!  How could we forget that?? When even the ultra-leftist Nation runs a story like this you know it's over :laugh:

A New Report Raises Big Questions About Last Year’s DNC Hack
Former NSA experts say it wasn’t a hack at all, but a leak—an inside job by someone with access to the DNC’s system.

https://www.thenation.com/article/a-new-report-raises-big-questions-about-last-years-dnc-hack/

Offline KJP

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Re: Voting
« Reply #167 on: August 16, 2017, 02:16:49 PM »
^thanks, I was afraid I wasn't getting through to people. Some things are just common sense.

Like being able to detect sarcasm?  :wave:
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Offline Hts121

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Re: Voting
« Reply #168 on: August 16, 2017, 02:54:07 PM »
oh, right, the Russian "hacker" story!  How could we forget that?? When even the ultra-leftist Nation runs a story like this you know it's over :laugh:

A New Report Raises Big Questions About Last Year’s DNC Hack
Former NSA experts say it wasn’t a hack at all, but a leak—an inside job by someone with access to the DNC’s system.

https://www.thenation.com/article/a-new-report-raises-big-questions-about-last-years-dnc-hack/

So since this guy hypothesizes about a result you so desperately want to see become reality, it is not fake news?  Good to know we can now rely on The Nation for news which you will trust as valid.  As for the theory in the article, I'm not ruling it out, but it still flies in the face of what Trump OWN INTELLIGENCE AGENCY appointments have concluded.  And, regardless of how the info was stolen, hacked, or leaked, it was certainly used by the Russians in their support for The Donald...... you know, the support which The Donald knew he was getting (as conclusively, beyond a shadow of a doubt evidenced by the incriminating email chain between his son and who his son thought was a Russian surrogate).

Offline moonloop

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Re: Voting
« Reply #169 on: September 05, 2017, 10:10:20 PM »
oh, right, the Russian "hacker" story!  How could we forget that?? When even the ultra-leftist Nation runs a story like this you know it's over :laugh:

A New Report Raises Big Questions About Last Year’s DNC Hack
Former NSA experts say it wasn’t a hack at all, but a leak—an inside job by someone with access to the DNC’s system.

https://www.thenation.com/article/a-new-report-raises-big-questions-about-last-years-dnc-hack/

So since this guy hypothesizes about a result you so desperately want to see become reality, it is not fake news?  Good to know we can now rely on The Nation for news which you will trust as valid.  As for the theory in the article, I'm not ruling it out, but it still flies in the face of what Trump OWN INTELLIGENCE AGENCY appointments have concluded.  And, regardless of how the info was stolen, hacked, or leaked, it was certainly used by the Russians in their support for The Donald...... you know, the support which The Donald knew he was getting (as conclusively, beyond a shadow of a doubt evidenced by the incriminating email chain between his son and who his son thought was a Russian surrogate).

Read this story again. There is now a huge retraction.

https://www.thenation.com/article/a-new-report-raises-big-questions-about-last-years-dnc-hack/

Offline moonloop

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Re: Voting
« Reply #170 on: September 05, 2017, 10:18:42 PM »
The racist Wisconsin GOP redistricting is headed to the Supreme Court, even being questioned by Kasich and Schwarzenegger. Of course Ohio joins North Carolina, Texas, and Wisconsin in setting up their racist gerrymandering.

Kasich joins Schwarzenegger in political map-making fight
Kasich signed onto a legal brief that opposes the GOP in the momentous redistricting case being heard by the U.S. Supreme Court this fall. He said other signers include Republicans John McCain, Richard Lugar and Bob Dole. At issue is whether Republican lawmakers in Wisconsin drew legislative districts that favored their party and were so out of whack with the state’s political breakdown that they violated Democratic voters’ constitutional rights.

In Ohio, the Republican-controlled map-making system resulted in the party winning nearly two more U.S. House seats and five more Ohio House seats in the last election than would have been expected in neutral circumstances, according to the AP analysis. In congressional races, Republican candidates won 56 percent of the vote in Ohio but 75 percent of the seats.

http://www.wcpo.com/news/state/state-ohio/kasich-joins-schwarzenegger-in-political-map-making-fight

Offline mu2010

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Re: Voting
« Reply #171 on: September 05, 2017, 11:02:32 PM »
I am totally anti-gerrymander and anti-GOP but I have to knit pick your characterization of these gerrymanders as racist, only in the interest of understanding the case at hand. The Supreme Court has long held racist gerrymandering to be unconstitutional. Recent GOP gerrymandering has, as a byproduct, created many majority black districts in these states and thereby passes the Court's tests for not being a racial  gerrymander, because it doesn't deny representation to black citizens.

The issue the court is debating in this case coming up is gerrymandering of the strictly political variety, and if that should be allowed or not. The court has never come out against it before but some people think now that there are more advanced statistical methods to prove it, that Anthony Kennedy might change his mind.
« Last Edit: September 05, 2017, 11:06:53 PM by mu2010 »

Online jmecklenborg

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Re: Voting
« Reply #172 on: December 04, 2017, 07:09:28 PM »
A startup is working on developing a smart phone-based voting app that would use a block chain to ensure security:
https://voatz.com

Obviously, this threatens to increase voter participation from our moribund levels to 90%+ overnight.  So there will be a lot of resistance to actually enabling this. 

Offline 327

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Re: Voting
« Reply #173 on: December 04, 2017, 07:21:07 PM »
I'd love to increase participation but this sounds extremely unsafe.  If there were a way to "ensure" online security, it would be worth 1.21 jiggadollars.

Online jmecklenborg

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Re: Voting
« Reply #174 on: December 04, 2017, 07:25:16 PM »
^Well blockchains are so far unhackable.  The vulnerabilities for its current use (cryptocurrencies) comes at the exchange point or corruption of a currency storage medium. 

So the security challenge lies not in the recording of a valid vote but in other realms -- how do we know the voter actually voted?  What if a labor union called everyone in for a meeting and a boss watched them vote to ensure that they actually vote the way they are supposed to?

I do think that with tech, each "solution" just creates new problems. 

Offline taestell

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Re: Voting
« Reply #175 on: January 09, 2018, 08:24:38 PM »
North Carolina Congressional Map Ruled Unconstitutionally Gerrymandered

A panel of federal judges struck down North Carolina’s congressional map on Tuesday, declaring it unconstitutionally gerrymandered and demanding that the Republican-controlled General Assembly redraw district lines before this year’s midterm elections.

The ruling was the first time that a federal court had blocked a congressional map because the judges believed it to be a partisan gerrymander, and it deepened the political chaos that has enveloped North Carolina in recent years.

“We agree with plaintiffs that a wealth of evidence proves the General Assembly’s intent to ‘subordinate’ the interests of non-Republican voters and ‘entrench’ Republican domination of the state’s congressional delegation,” Judge James A. Wynn Jr. wrote in a 191-page opinion that another judge joined in full.

Offline KJP

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Re: Voting
« Reply #176 on: January 26, 2018, 09:02:00 PM »
An increasingly disturbing trend in American politics: Republicans literally refusing to hold elections because they're afraid Democrats might win them. https://t.co/8YIn7kWfEK
"Give me control of a nation's money supply, and I care not who writes the laws." -- Mayer Amschel Rothschild, founder of the European banking dynasty.

Offline DarkandStormy

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Re: Voting
« Reply #177 on: February 06, 2018, 09:00:50 AM »
https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2018/02/02/582600802/voting-rights-process-for-florida-felons-unconstitutional-say-judge

Quote
A federal judge has declared unconstitutional Florida's procedure for restoring voting rights to felons who have served their time.

In a strongly worded ruling seen as a rebuke of Republican Gov. Rick Scott, who is the lead defendant in the case, U.S. District Judge Mark Walker said the disenfranchisement of felons who have served their time is "nonsensical" and a violation of the First and 14th Amendments to the U.S. Constitution.

Offline KJP

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Re: Voting
« Reply #178 on: February 11, 2018, 09:27:13 AM »
"Give me control of a nation's money supply, and I care not who writes the laws." -- Mayer Amschel Rothschild, founder of the European banking dynasty.

Offline DarkandStormy

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Re: Voting
« Reply #179 on: February 13, 2018, 05:07:51 PM »
https://www.cnn.com/2018/02/13/politics/pennsylvania-gov-veto-redrawn-congressional-map/index.html

Quote
Pennsylvania's Democratic Gov. Tom Wolf has vetoed a proposed map of Republican-redrawn congressional districts, arguing the map is "a partisan gerrymander" ahead of Thursday's deadline.

Pennsylvania's Supreme Court ruled in January that the state's congressional maps must be redrawn this year. The court threw out the Republican-drawn 2011 congressional map, ruling that districts "clearly, plainly and palpably" violate the state's constitution.

"The analysis by my team shows that, like the 2011 map, the map submitted to my office by Republican leaders is still a gerrymander," Wolf said in a statement Tuesday. "Their map clearly seeks to benefit one political party, which is the essence of why the court found the current map to be unconstitutional."

Good try, GOP.  Good try.