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Author Topic: Hyperloop  (Read 14433 times)

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Offline KJP

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Re: Hyperloop
« Reply #330 on: June 06, 2018, 02:31:10 AM »
I'm reading this aboard Trenitalia, with packed 300-passenger trains every 10-30 minutes traveling at up to 220 mph from Rome to Venice. The brand new 65-mile section between Florence and Bologna is 99-percent in tunnels and traveled in 35 minutes. Italy can do this. Somehow the USA cannot. Instead we're distracted by unproven fantasies because the costs (and benefits) are unknown and thus appear to be an easy political lift.
"Many Americans are willing to die for their country. But pay taxes for it? No way." -- Me.

Offline Cleburger

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Re: Hyperloop
« Reply #331 on: June 06, 2018, 09:07:26 AM »
I'm reading this aboard Trenitalia, with packed 300-passenger trains every 10-30 minutes traveling at up to 220 mph from Rome to Venice. The brand new 65-mile section between Florence and Bologna is 99-percent in tunnels and traveled in 35 minutes. Italy can do this. Somehow the USA cannot. Instead we're distracted by unproven fantasies because the costs (and benefits) are unknown and thus appear to be an easy political lift.

We can afford it--if we adjust our priorities.  Yabo mentioned on another thread to name one or two things Trump has done that you would agree with.  Making Europe and NATO pay their fair share of defense is one policy I support--so long as the savings to US taxpayers are put into meaningful infrastructure projects employing Americans.  Italy spends just 1.5% of it's GDP on military but has fancy high speed rail and excellent roads.  Let them defend themselves. 

Online jmecklenborg

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Re: Hyperloop
« Reply #332 on: June 06, 2018, 09:25:12 AM »
Italy spends just 1.5% of it's GDP on military but has fancy high speed rail 

Our tax dollars pay for trains full of heavy military equipment.  Oh, and for a network of "defense highways" that play absolutely no role in moving the military, except recruiters use it to drive to work at their strip mall offices. 

Offline GCrites80s

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Re: Hyperloop
« Reply #333 on: June 06, 2018, 09:26:42 AM »
Nobody's going to attack them anyway; areas that speak Romance languages are unlikely to to be significant geopolitical hotspots.

Offline Gramarye

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Re: Hyperloop
« Reply #334 on: June 06, 2018, 10:51:37 AM »
The entirety of Italy is 30% smaller than the state of California.  The entirety of that Rome to Venice line is about 60 miles shorter than the distance from Los Angeles to San Francisco.

Offline carnevalem

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Re: Hyperloop
« Reply #335 on: June 06, 2018, 10:58:32 AM »
Nobody's going to attack them anyway; areas that speak Romance languages are unlikely to to be significant geopolitical hotspots.

Transnistria is a frozen conflict right now, but could become extremely important overnight.

Offline E Rocc

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Re: Hyperloop
« Reply #336 on: June 07, 2018, 05:11:12 AM »
Nobody's going to attack them anyway; areas that speak Romance languages are unlikely to to be significant geopolitical hotspots.

Unless of course some people who speak Arabic languages think they have a historical claim on the territory....

Offline E Rocc

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Re: Hyperloop
« Reply #337 on: June 07, 2018, 05:20:10 AM »
The entirety of Italy is 30% smaller than the state of California.  The entirety of that Rome to Venice line is about 60 miles shorter than the distance from Los Angeles to San Francisco.

Also, space is at much more of a premium in Italy than it is in the USA.

I was reading a blog by the French girlfriend of a British singer whose band was on tour here.   She was stunned at how big the US is.   I would guess that due to mountains Italy is more effectively packed that France or England.

That means we can mess around with new ideas here.   Plus we have the economy and culture that encourages this.

As for defense, Poland has already offered to pay for US bases there.   That and the UK should cover Europe, with Navy stuff in Spain and or Italy.

Offline jmicha

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Re: Hyperloop
« Reply #338 on: June 07, 2018, 08:24:58 AM »
We have the culture that encourages innovation? Since when? That hasn't been true in ages. Other than small pockets of industry the reality is that the rest of the world has moved on beyond our ideas. Sure, we have a lot of the tech industry, but beyond that what do we have that's truly innovative? We aren't progressing in energy, production, quality of life, wages, we aren't building as much as we used to, we have created an entire economy out of disposable junk, etc., etc., etc. We aren't exactly doing much to inspire others or test new ideas anymore than anyone else is.

Offline GCrites80s

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Re: Hyperloop
« Reply #339 on: June 07, 2018, 09:00:11 AM »
That's because doing anything besides working in healthcare is a huge risk in this country.

Offline surfohio

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Re: Hyperloop
« Reply #340 on: June 07, 2018, 12:42:11 PM »
I just had a fairly bright and intelligent co-worker remark that California's high speed rail was already outdated, and thus a colossal waste of time and money. I asked why, and she started going on about "Elon Musk's new magnetic train..."

Online jmecklenborg

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Re: Hyperloop
« Reply #341 on: June 07, 2018, 12:51:31 PM »
I just had a fairly bright and intelligent co-worker remark that California's high speed rail was already outdated, and thus a colossal waste of time and money. I asked why, and she started going on about "Elon Musk's new magnetic train..."

Let's ignore the sewer pipe for a minute -- the reason why maglev hasn't caught on is in large part because its capacity is lower than traditional steel wheel HSR.  Why?  Because the stopping distance for faster trains is much farther so fewer trains can safely operate per hour in each direction. 

We have seen no explanation for how Musk plans to stop his 700mph pods.  But the good news for him is that most experts think even achieving 300mph is unlikely.  But decelerating from 300mph to 0 mph will take at least 90 seconds, which means 40 pods per hour in each direction.  So a maximum capacity of 1,200 (assuming a 30-man pod) per direction as opposed to 10,000 on the California HSR. 

So Musk's sewer pipe has 10% of the capacity of conventional HSR.   

Every Musk-lover take a breath and then say out loud:

The Hyperloop is never going to exist.  Musk lied to me, again.  And I believe him, again. 

Offline punch

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Re: Hyperloop
« Reply #342 on: June 08, 2018, 12:04:44 AM »
Maglev train do not use friction to break, they use the same electromagnetic forces that accelerate the train are also used to decelerate it.

Online jmecklenborg

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Re: Hyperloop
« Reply #343 on: June 08, 2018, 07:49:42 AM »
Maglev train do not use friction to break, they use the same electromagnetic forces that accelerate the train are also used to decelerate it.

I know that.  There is no way that the FRA is going to sign off on operations that don't leave space for pods to stop in the event of a service disruption.  The faster the pods travel, the longer that distance gets, semi-exponentially.  The more space between pods, the lower the system capacity.  We haven't heard Musk address this at all. 

Offline Cleburger

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Re: Hyperloop
« Reply #344 on: June 08, 2018, 08:18:21 AM »
Over a century ago, the Wright brothers managed to get a powered aircraft to fly 120 feet.  The press all but ignored it.  The US Government declined to meet with them after the success.   

People called them crazy, as dozens of people over the years died trying to achieve such a goal.  115 years later the general public travels on Airbus 380s, and private space travel is nearing reality. 

I just don't understand the criticism of Musk.  If people believe in his ideas, they will invest.  They may lose their money, or they could be rich.  Either way nothing happens without someone having some vision.

Online jmecklenborg

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Re: Hyperloop
« Reply #345 on: June 08, 2018, 10:48:15 AM »
Musk's vision is privatization. 

Offline KJP

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Re: Hyperloop
« Reply #346 on: June 11, 2018, 09:32:08 AM »
The entirety of Italy is 30% smaller than the state of California.  The entirety of that Rome to Venice line is about 60 miles shorter than the distance from Los Angeles to San Francisco.

And 30 percent of California is uninhabitable yet has 67 percent of Italy's population. Furthermore, since 2000, California's population has grown from 33.9 million to 39.5 million while Italy has grown a little more slowly, from 57.2 million to 59.2 million in the same period. California is trying to keep from drowning in its own traffic and growth. What economic development/public policy issue is Italy trying to address with its $30 billion HSR program? Climate change? Oversaturation on classic rail lines, highways and airports? increased economic productivity? And yes, it costs a lot less to construct major infrastructure projects in Europe than it does in the USA.

BTW, the Rome-Florence line was the first all-new high-speed rail line built in Europe, not the French TGV. Italy's was built in 1977. The TGV opened four years later. The Rome-Florence section was recently rebuilt however. And the Bologna-Venice line uses a mostly classic rail line, albeit upgraded with modern power and signal systems, allowing 130+ mph operation. The 55-mile San Jose-San Francisco classic rail line is being similarly upgraded with overhead electric power delivery and lots of grade-crossing eliminations/separations. That portion is also funded.
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Online jmecklenborg

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Re: Hyperloop
« Reply #347 on: June 11, 2018, 10:19:28 AM »
^The Caltrains line is a bit of a bottleneck in the California HSR system, but the real problem is the limited capacity of the Transbay Terminal.  Rebuilding Caltrains as a 4-track line with 2 dedicated HSR tracks doesn't win the system much over what they are going to build with 3 tracks (only a single HSR track with passing movements in the schedule). 

Only 4 trains can originate from SF Transbay per hour.  The blended HSR/Caltrains section is being designed to handle 4 HSR trains per hour per direction and 6 Caltrains commuter trains per hour.  Amtrak will also use the track but terminate at the existing 4th & King station.   
« Last Edit: June 11, 2018, 10:23:02 AM by jmecklenborg »

Offline E Rocc

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Re: Hyperloop
« Reply #348 on: June 11, 2018, 11:38:26 AM »
The entirety of Italy is 30% smaller than the state of California.  The entirety of that Rome to Venice line is about 60 miles shorter than the distance from Los Angeles to San Francisco.

And 30 percent of California is uninhabitable yet has 67 percent of Italy's population. Furthermore, since 2000, California's population has grown from 33.9 million to 39.5 million while Italy has grown a little more slowly, from 57.2 million to 59.2 million in the same period. California is trying to keep from drowning in its own traffic and growth. What economic development/public policy issue is Italy trying to address with its $30 billion HSR program? Climate change? Oversaturation on classic rail lines, highways and airports? increased economic productivity? And yes, it costs a lot less to construct major infrastructure projects in Europe than it does in the USA.

BTW, the Rome-Florence line was the first all-new high-speed rail line built in Europe, not the French TGV. Italy's was built in 1977. The TGV opened four years later. The Rome-Florence section was recently rebuilt however. And the Bologna-Venice line uses a mostly classic rail line, albeit upgraded with modern power and signal systems, allowing 130+ mph operation. The 55-mile San Jose-San Francisco classic rail line is being similarly upgraded with overhead electric power delivery and lots of grade-crossing eliminations/separations. That portion is also funded.

A good chunk of Italy is uninhabitable as well, at least at anything resembling density.

Online jmecklenborg

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Re: Hyperloop
« Reply #349 on: June 11, 2018, 01:15:33 PM »
A good chunk of Italy is uninhabitable as well, at least at anything resembling density.

No city in Italy has over 4 million people.  The Bay Area has 7 million and Los Angels has 13 million. 

Offline punch

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Re: Hyperloop
« Reply #350 on: June 13, 2018, 04:41:49 PM »
Can we bring it back to the topic of Hyperloop

Offline sabotage619

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Re: Hyperloop
« Reply #351 on: June 14, 2018, 06:35:06 AM »
Not technically Hyperloop but...

Chicago Says Elon Musk’s Company Will Build Tunnels and Electric Cars to Go to O’Hare
New York Times
By Julie Bosman and Mitch Smith
June 13, 2018
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/06/13/us/chicago-ohare-elon-musk-rahm-emanuel.html
If completed as planned, each electric vehicle — called a “skate” — would transport up to 16 riders and their luggage. The vehicles could leave downtown and O’Hare as frequently as every 30 seconds, the city says. They would exceed 100 miles per hour and make the entire trip from downtown to O’Hare in 12 minutes.

Chicago taps Elon Musk’s Boring Company to build high-speed transit tunnels that would tie Loop with O'Hare
Chicago Tribune
Bill Ruthhart and John ByrneContact Reporters
June 13, 2018
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/politics/ct-met-ohare-high-speed-transit-elon-musk-boring-company-20180613-story.html
Autonomous 16-passenger vehicles would zip back and forth at speeds exceeding 100 mph in tunnels between the Loop and O’Hare International Airport under a high-speed transit proposal being negotiated between Mayor Rahm Emanuel’s City Hall and billionaire tech entrepreneur Elon Musk’s The Boring Co., city and company officials have confirmed.

Offline KJP

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Re: Hyperloop
« Reply #352 on: June 14, 2018, 08:17:26 AM »
Not technically Hyperloop but...

Chicago Says Elon Musk’s Company Will Build Tunnels and Electric Cars to Go to O’Hare
New York Times
By Julie Bosman and Mitch Smith
June 13, 2018
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/06/13/us/chicago-ohare-elon-musk-rahm-emanuel.html
If completed as planned, each electric vehicle — called a “skate” — would transport up to 16 riders and their luggage. The vehicles could leave downtown and O’Hare as frequently as every 30 seconds, the city says. They would exceed 100 miles per hour and make the entire trip from downtown to O’Hare in 12 minutes.

Chicago taps Elon Musk’s Boring Company to build high-speed transit tunnels that would tie Loop with O'Hare
Chicago Tribune
Bill Ruthhart and John ByrneContact Reporters
June 13, 2018
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/politics/ct-met-ohare-high-speed-transit-elon-musk-boring-company-20180613-story.html
Autonomous 16-passenger vehicles would zip back and forth at speeds exceeding 100 mph in tunnels between the Loop and O’Hare International Airport under a high-speed transit proposal being negotiated between Mayor Rahm Emanuel’s City Hall and billionaire tech entrepreneur Elon Musk’s The Boring Co., city and company officials have confirmed.

A 16-passenger pod every 30 seconds? I think we're going to have some capacity issues (this is the existing CTA station at O'Hare)....

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Online jmecklenborg

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Re: Hyperloop
« Reply #353 on: June 14, 2018, 08:18:27 AM »
^Privatization, of course.  Plus, the capacity of this thing is amazingly low, just 2,000 passengers per hour. 

The only innovation here is that they would run very small trains through very small tunnels on battery power instead of using a third rail.  Then they're going to write off a huge loss on the thing but call it a victory. 

Offline GCrites80s

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Re: Hyperloop
« Reply #354 on: June 14, 2018, 09:00:06 AM »
I hope companies that have constant losses become at least slightly less appealing now that you can't carry them back anymore.

Online jmecklenborg

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Re: Hyperloop
« Reply #355 on: June 14, 2018, 05:23:21 PM »
   What's amazing is that Musk's cost estimate for his system comes in basically the exact same as the CTA proposal from 10 years ago that would have built new surface express tracks for the blue line from the superstation to O'Hare.  https://www.nbcchicago.com/investigations/How-Chicago-Spent-400M-On-a-Subway-Superstation-to-Nowhere-293754431.html

The only improvement Musk's plan makes is an estimated 2x faster speed and the fact that he CLAIMS he won't want any public money.  How does Musk's sewer pipe attract any more riders than the CTA plan?  It might get a few more because it'll be faster, but the CTA project was never expected to make money. 

Keep in mind that vehicles traveling at 2x the speed does not halve the speed of the trip.  In fact the faster speed might be completely inconsequential in what will still be a trip that takes 1 hour from the time you leave your office to the time you get to the gate.  Unless you actually work within 5 blocks of Block 37 (and many do), a trip to the superstation will require a trip...on the blue line.  So why not just stay on the damn blue line?!!!

Offline E Rocc

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Re: Hyperloop
« Reply #356 on: June 14, 2018, 06:45:51 PM »
   What's amazing is that Musk's cost estimate for his system comes in basically the exact same as the CTA proposal from 10 years ago that would have built new surface express tracks for the blue line from the superstation to O'Hare.  https://www.nbcchicago.com/investigations/How-Chicago-Spent-400M-On-a-Subway-Superstation-to-Nowhere-293754431.html

The only improvement Musk's plan makes is an estimated 2x faster speed and the fact that he CLAIMS he won't want any public money.  How does Musk's sewer pipe attract any more riders than the CTA plan?  It might get a few more because it'll be faster, but the CTA project was never expected to make money. 

Keep in mind that vehicles traveling at 2x the speed does not halve the speed of the trip.  In fact the faster speed might be completely inconsequential in what will still be a trip that takes 1 hour from the time you leave your office to the time you get to the gate.  Unless you actually work within 5 blocks of Block 37 (and many do), a trip to the superstation will require a trip...on the blue line.  So why not just stay on the damn blue line?!!!


Crowded?   Lacking amenities?

I'm sure this has been thought out, or will be by the time it's functional.  It's going to cost what the market will bear, which will be more than the blue line of course.   How does it compete with cabs or Uber?   We'll see.

Offline taestell

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Re: Hyperloop
« Reply #357 on: June 14, 2018, 07:35:01 PM »
High speed train so you can get to the airport sooner, then spend 30 minutes waiting in line for the TSA and dealing with flight delays.

It might actually be worthwhile if you could go through security and drop your bags in Downtown Chicago and then the train drops you off inside the secure area at O’Hare.

Offline KJP

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Re: Hyperloop
« Reply #358 on: June 14, 2018, 09:12:19 PM »
Chicago makes risky bet on O'Hare access that ignores regional needs
https://www.midwesthsr.org/chicago-makes-risky-bet-ohare-access-ignores-regional-needs
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Offline Ram23

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Re: Hyperloop
« Reply #359 on: June 14, 2018, 09:31:38 PM »
It might actually be worthwhile if you could go through security and drop your bags in Downtown Chicago and then the train drops you off inside the secure area at O’Hare.

In Taiwan you can check your baggage, check in for your flight, and print your boarding pass at the train station in downtown Taipei, and then take the train out to the airport. The express train stops twice on the way to the airport though, so they can't try to pull of security. That seems like it would have a lot more liability issues.

Here's a description of how it works:

https://www.tymetro.com.tw/tymetro-new/en/_pages/checkin/index.html