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Author Topic: Cincinnati: Downtown: The Banks  (Read 80500 times)

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Online jmecklenborg

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Re: Cincinnati: Downtown: The Banks
« Reply #9000 on: January 25, 2018, 11:47:17 AM »
^Yeah, we're almost 20 years into this and not a single condo has been built. 

Offline Brutus_buckeye

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Re: Cincinnati: Downtown: The Banks
« Reply #9001 on: January 25, 2018, 11:57:27 AM »
Thought they dropped the condo component of the project. Plus until the last 3-4 years the market was not right for condo development around here.

Online taestell

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Re: Cincinnati: Downtown: The Banks
« Reply #9002 on: January 25, 2018, 12:29:30 PM »
We keep hearing that developers are afraid to build condos downtown because no other developers are building condos downtown. It's so bizarre. They can look at what condos are selling for in OTR and expect to get similar prices for similarly-sized, similarly-finished condos in the CBD, but apparently each side of Central Parkway is its own unique world with a different set of rules.

Online jmecklenborg

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Re: Cincinnati: Downtown: The Banks
« Reply #9003 on: January 25, 2018, 12:33:57 PM »
None of the condo developments in OTR are particularly big.  By comparison, the big condo towers going up in places like Toronto have 100~ units.

Offline jmicha

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Re: Cincinnati: Downtown: The Banks
« Reply #9004 on: January 25, 2018, 01:17:42 PM »
Honestly I think the method should to fully build out with the residential components being rentals with the intention of transitioning to condos further down the line. Owning something is a much bigger investment and people have options in Cincy. Buying into an unfinished development of this scale is a big commitment to something you have no control over. Rentals aren't. But when it's built out and you transition a building, or part of a building to an ownership model, people might have a lot less hesitations.

Offline Brutus_buckeye

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Re: Cincinnati: Downtown: The Banks
« Reply #9005 on: January 25, 2018, 04:01:30 PM »
^ you are proposing 2 completely different operating models that are not necessarily in line with each other and to do something like this on a high end build would be next to impossible because no bank would finance such a thing. You can do one or the other but not build your model around the condo conversion years down the line. Now where you see this taking place is when you have investors buying the already constructed property and then changing it to condo or apartment. You would essentially have to wait for a new owner to do this.

Offline jmicha

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Re: Cincinnati: Downtown: The Banks
« Reply #9006 on: January 25, 2018, 05:08:56 PM »
Which is exactly the current model The Banks has been built with. The buildings are built, then sold to another investor. The original apartments aren't owned by Carter. Are the second phase even still owned by them?

Condo conversions happen all over all the time. It's not a small task, but it normally coincides with the timing of a major remodeling effort since apartments are going to be vacated anyway in order to upgrade them to current standards.

3CDC has done this on many of their buildings as a local example.

Online jmecklenborg

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Re: Cincinnati: Downtown: The Banks
« Reply #9007 on: January 25, 2018, 05:20:12 PM »
Perhaps some of the trouble with building this thing out is that developers are making more money in the hotter real estate environments like Denver and Nashville.  So not that there isn't demand in Cincinnati but rather that there is much more in about a dozen spots around the country.  It doesn't cost much more to build there but they can charge much higher rents or command much higher sale prices for condos.  That makes the financing a perfunctory matter. 

Cincinnati has a wide variety of housing and neighborhood types that dilute the demand for this metro's downtown.  All of the river and hillside views have motivated construction of thousands of high-end condos, homes, and apartments that might have otherwise been built in or near downtown over the past 30-40 years.  Places like Charlotte and Denver have no views or water.  Nashville has a river but it is not scenic. 


Offline Htsguy

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Re: Cincinnati: Downtown: The Banks
« Reply #9008 on: January 25, 2018, 05:27:20 PM »
^I will have to run that one by my buddy in Denver the next time he brags for the 100th time about his view of the Rocky Mountains from his third floor deck. ;)

Online jwulsin

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Re: Cincinnati: Downtown: The Banks
« Reply #9009 on: January 25, 2018, 05:29:26 PM »
Which is exactly the current model The Banks has been built with. The buildings are built, then sold to another investor. The original apartments aren't owned by Carter. Are the second phase even still owned by them?

Condo conversions happen all over all the time. It's not a small task, but it normally coincides with the timing of a major remodeling effort since apartments are going to be vacated anyway in order to upgrade them to current standards.

3CDC has done this on many of their buildings as a local example.

3CDC often did the apartment-to-condo conversion to coincide with the end of the historic tax credit waiting period, because as mandated by the IRS no major ownership changes can happen during the first 5 years after claiming the tax credits.

Online jwulsin

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Re: Cincinnati: Downtown: The Banks
« Reply #9010 on: January 25, 2018, 05:30:34 PM »
^I will have to run that one by my buddy in Denver the next time he brags for the 100th time about his view of the Rocky Mountains from his third floor deck. ;)
Haha. As long as you have west-facing windows in Denver, you can advertise "mountain views"! If your windows only face east... then you can advertise "lovely view of flat, endless plains".

Online jmecklenborg

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Re: Cincinnati: Downtown: The Banks
« Reply #9011 on: January 25, 2018, 05:31:33 PM »
^I will have to run that one by my buddy in Denver the next time he brags for the 100th time about his view of the Rocky Mountains from his third floor deck. ;)

There aren't many homes on the slopes of the mountains.  It's not like people in Pasadena or the flat part of Hollywood brag about being able to see a mountain range.  People *do* pay huge money to buy or rent homes in the Hollywood Hills. 


Online BigDipper 80

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Re: Cincinnati: Downtown: The Banks
« Reply #9012 on: January 25, 2018, 05:41:06 PM »
Denver is the Kansas half of Colorado. The mountains are there, and they're beautiful but always in the background. Not really a part of your life unless you road-trip out to them.
“To an Ohio resident - wherever he lives - some other part of his state seems unreal.”

Offline edale

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Re: Cincinnati: Downtown: The Banks
« Reply #9013 on: January 25, 2018, 06:07:19 PM »
^I will have to run that one by my buddy in Denver the next time he brags for the 100th time about his view of the Rocky Mountains from his third floor deck. ;)

There aren't many homes on the slopes of the mountains.  It's not like people in Pasadena or the flat part of Hollywood brag about being able to see a mountain range.  People *do* pay huge money to buy or rent homes in the Hollywood Hills.

That's true. The mountains are visible just about anywhere in the LA area, and they're never listed as a selling point for real estate, though I do find them very nice to look at. South LA has some of the best views of the San Gabriel Mountains, and portions of the Inland Empire also have pretty cool mountain views, but those areas are where the cheapest real estate can be found in Southern California. Views of the ocean or FROM the mountains are another story.

I agree with your point about the expensive urban condo market being spread out in Cincinnati given the topography and various vistas that exist. Lots of cities don't really have a Mt. Adams or Eden Park high rise condo area, with the notable exception being lakefront cities, I think. Cleveland has the Gold Coast out in Lakewood/Edgewater, Chicago has the North Shore, I haven't been to Milwaukee, but I know they have several high rise residential buildings along the lake outside of their downtown. But a flat city without a major body of water, like Columbus, wouldn't have this type of scenario as much.

Online jmecklenborg

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Re: Cincinnati: Downtown: The Banks
« Reply #9014 on: February 13, 2018, 02:13:40 PM »
WCPO speculates that The Banks is struggling to compete with Cincinnati's up-and-coming real neighborhoods:

https://www.wcpo.com/news/insider/are-city-neighborhoods-beating-the-banks-some-say-yes-but-the-banks-is-a-neighborhood-too?page=2

Again, I think the big problem with The Banks (which I probably posted here 10 years ago) is the master developer issue and the development of entire blocks at once.  They need to subdivide what remains and auction off those lots -- diversify building types AND ownership. 

Online mu2010

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Re: Cincinnati: Downtown: The Banks
« Reply #9015 on: February 13, 2018, 02:36:32 PM »
I brought up this issue the other day in the Cleveland Lakefront thread when we were discussing what kind of development should happen there. I think preexisting neighborhoods with aged buildings and more organic growth are just going to be more interesting than these planned city type things. The Banks is nice, it's probably great for visitors, Smale Riverfront Park is great, but this story should be a caution to any city looking to develop a 'prime' area to not overdo it.

Online taestell

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Re: Cincinnati: Downtown: The Banks
« Reply #9016 on: February 13, 2018, 02:41:46 PM »
WCPO speculates that The Banks is struggling to compete with Cincinnati's up-and-coming real neighborhoods:

https://www.wcpo.com/news/insider/are-city-neighborhoods-beating-the-banks-some-say-yes-but-the-banks-is-a-neighborhood-too?page=2

Again, I think the big problem with The Banks (which I probably posted here 10 years ago) is the master developer issue and the development of entire blocks at once.  They need to subdivide what remains and auction off those lots -- diversify building types AND ownership. 

The "real neighborhood" thing is true, but I also think there is a limited number of people that will choose to live in the CBD or OTR when they can get the same square footage in a more up-and-coming walkable neighborhood like Pleasant Ridge for 1/2 or 1/3 of the cost. I think that we need a rising tide to lift all boats, and bring the property values of the other NBDs up a bit, before we see the revitalization of the urban core reach its maximum potential.

Online GCrites80s

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Re: Cincinnati: Downtown: The Banks
« Reply #9017 on: February 13, 2018, 03:32:19 PM »
It's weird, buying a place in Pleasant Ridge can be expensive but renting there is cheap. There's several neighborhoods in Cincinnati like that.

Offline savadams13

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Re: Cincinnati: Downtown: The Banks
« Reply #9018 on: February 13, 2018, 04:57:32 PM »
I have two colleagues that live in Radius at the Banks. Seems they are struggling to rent the building out and realizing the prices are too high.  The leasing company is trying to meet one on one with tenants to reduce rents to keep tenants in the building. However it isnt working and alot of tenants leave after six months. Could be a sign of more to come.

Online taestell

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Re: Cincinnati: Downtown: The Banks
« Reply #9019 on: March 13, 2018, 11:02:34 PM »
Went to Toby's Kieth's last night for opening weekend and it was indeed packed by 11:30. It's quite a large space and essentially feels like a sports bar with a live music stage. No cover, but drinks were on the more expensive side for Cincinnati ($4 for a domestic bottle)

The mix of people was straight-up weird. Lots of UC kids, YPs and even some hipsters, and then much of what I imagine the real target audience is for this place if you get my drift...

While this is not really my kind of place, I can guarantee that most of the people in there last night were from the suburbs and came into the city just to check it out. More people coming into the city to see the real progress happening, the Banks especially, is definitely a good thing.

I'd like to ask you a few questions about this place.

Did you love the bar?
Did you love the grill?

Offline The_Cincinnati_Kid

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Re: Cincinnati: Downtown: The Banks
« Reply #9020 on: March 21, 2018, 06:01:49 PM »
This whole idea is a horrible waste of space.


Here are the 3 groups looking to build an entertainment venue at the Banks: SLIDESHOW
By Tom Demeropolis  – Senior Staff Reporter, Cincinnati Business Courier


Three groups submitted plans to develop an entertainment venue and event center at the Banks in downtown Cincinnati.

The three teams that responded to a request for qualifications from the Joint Banks Steering Committee were a partnership between Live Nation Entertainment Inc. and Ark Group, the Cincinnati Symphony Orchestra and Promowest Productions Inc. The submissions range in capacity from 2,500 to 6,000 and in scope from about $17 million to more than $66 million.

https://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/news/2018/03/21/here-are-the-3-groups-looking-to-build-an.html

Offline Arcade Fiyah

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Online taestell

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Re: Cincinnati: Downtown: The Banks
« Reply #9022 on: March 21, 2018, 10:41:19 PM »
Why bother developing the rest of The Banks as a mix of retail, office space, and residential when you can just toss up a giant indoor-outdoor music venue that takes up all of the remaining space?

Online wjh2

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Re: Cincinnati: Downtown: The Banks
« Reply #9023 on: March 22, 2018, 08:26:22 AM »
Why bother developing the rest of The Banks as a mix of retail, office space, and residential when you can just toss up a giant indoor-outdoor music venue that takes up all of the remaining space?

I think if put in the right location (south of PBS?) this space could be a positive contributor to The Banks, but putting it next to the most recently completed phase would be a big mistake. Just because it may be the easiest to do (at this time) does not make it the best. They need more office users and residents.

Online Cincy513

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Re: Cincinnati: Downtown: The Banks
« Reply #9024 on: March 22, 2018, 08:34:18 AM »
The CSO rendering appears, I think, to be in the spot originally talked about south west of paul brown stadium.  I don't think the Promowest location is terrible.  It looks to only be taking up one plot of land that was planned to be developed.  Lot 10 was planned for retail/office/residential but lot 23 is planned to be part of the park.  Live Nations rendering is definitely on lot 24 and in no way should this music venue go there. 


Online ucgrady

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Re: Cincinnati: Downtown: The Banks
« Reply #9025 on: March 22, 2018, 08:36:33 AM »
The Promowest version looks like it would stay south of Theodore Berry Way and the carousel. If this venue stays to the south of the newly completed parking garage in the Lots 10 and 23, I think this could be a win. We already have a huge park down there, and the park doesn't need to be north of Mehring anyway.
« Last Edit: March 22, 2018, 08:38:48 AM by ucgrady »

Online wjh2

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Re: Cincinnati: Downtown: The Banks
« Reply #9026 on: March 22, 2018, 08:51:14 AM »
Agreed - in no way does lot 23 need to be more green space.

Offline cincydave8

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Re: Cincinnati: Downtown: The Banks
« Reply #9027 on: March 22, 2018, 08:59:33 AM »
Sheesh, why not just tear down and rebuild US Bank Arena instead?

Offline jmicha

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Re: Cincinnati: Downtown: The Banks
« Reply #9028 on: March 22, 2018, 08:59:38 AM »
Yeah, I can come to terms with Lot 23 and (a portion of) Lot 10 being used for this. Lot 23 wasn't going to be developed anyway, so that's not a loss since we have so much park space as it is. Lot 10 would be nice to be a large building but I think having a major entrance to a concert venue from the corner could actually be a good way to activate that side of Smale, so I think it could work.

I just would want to make sure that the boundaries given to this development are tight and that mixed use development properly fills the rest of The Banks as planned.

Online Cincy513

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Re: Cincinnati: Downtown: The Banks
« Reply #9029 on: March 22, 2018, 09:04:24 AM »
Promowest has a similar concert venue right next to Heinz field in Pittsburgh.  They always have live music going on before Steelers games so it's basically just another place fans go to eat and drink if they can't/don't want to tailgate.  I imagine they do the same for big Pirates games as well.  I know CSO is the local group but I hope Promowest wins this bid.  I think they will do the best job as they have the most experience in running these exact type of venues.