Author Topic: Gun Rights  (Read 37961 times)

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Offline GCrites80s

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Re: Gun Rights
« Reply #1860 on: December 07, 2017, 01:16:26 PM »
he likes to analyze it rather than treat it as the "America Bible" as Trumpies do

Offline 327

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Re: Gun Rights
« Reply #1861 on: December 07, 2017, 01:18:09 PM »
The founders wanted us to talk it out.  So here we are.

Offline GCrites80s

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Re: Gun Rights
« Reply #1862 on: December 07, 2017, 01:39:06 PM »
Well maybe, if Net Neutrality goes away we might have to make a secret forum within the Home Shopping Network site.

Offline Brutus_buckeye

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Re: Gun Rights
« Reply #1863 on: December 07, 2017, 02:17:31 PM »
^ So it seems that you agree with liberals that the constitution is an imperfect document.  Now that we've gotten that squared away...

No document will ever be perfect. But it is what we have until it is changed. If libs want to change it go ahead, but do it the right way, don't cry when the task proves difficult and want to find shortcuts around it.

Online freefourur

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Re: Gun Rights
« Reply #1864 on: December 07, 2017, 02:21:18 PM »
^ only libs try to change the interpretation of the constitution through the courts.  Hasn't that trope grown old for you yet?

I was not making an argument to change the document btw.  I was just pointing out the absurdity of an argument.
« Last Edit: December 07, 2017, 02:24:37 PM by freefourur »

Offline surfohio

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Re: Gun Rights
« Reply #1865 on: December 07, 2017, 02:27:51 PM »
^ So it seems that you agree with liberals that the constitution is an imperfect document.  Now that we've gotten that squared away...

No document will ever be perfect. But it is what we have until it is changed. If libs want to change it go ahead, but do it the right way, don't cry when the task proves difficult and want to find shortcuts around it.

When it's so difficult to change the Constitution it's understandable why someone would favor an activist Supreme Court judge. For conservatives there's absolutely some cognitive dissonance in favoring a justice who makes the "right" decision vs. the decision you personally desire.

Offline Brutus_buckeye

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Re: Gun Rights
« Reply #1866 on: December 07, 2017, 04:02:19 PM »
I have a number of right wing zealots in my office and argue with them all day because they have a lot of hypocrisy in their arguments. Personally, I have nothing against liberal or conservative positions as long as people come to them rationally and have a basis for them but what irritates me about things like the gun debate is that the answer is to ban all guns or we need more guns and there is very little reasoning behind many of those arguments and they are often based solely on feeling.


Offline DarkandStormy

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Re: Gun Rights
« Reply #1867 on: December 12, 2017, 03:36:53 PM »
but what irritates me about things like the gun debate is that the answer is to ban all guns or we need more guns and there is very little reasoning behind many of those arguments and they are often based solely on feeling.

Almost no one is calling for a ban on all guns.

http://www.cnn.com/2017/10/02/politics/bipartisan-gun-control-policies-majorities/index.html

Policy ideas with 75+% support of both parties:
-Preventing the mentally ill from purchasing guns
-Barring gun purchases to people on no-fly or watch lists
-Background checks for private sales and at gun shows

Policy ideas with 50+% support of both parties:
-Banning assault-style weapons
-Creating a federal database to track gun sales

Offline DarkandStormy

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Re: Gun Rights
« Reply #1868 on: December 14, 2017, 11:19:29 AM »
https://www.yahoo.com/news/school-shooting-survivors-united-chain-grief-hard-lessons-passed-100005444.html

A look at 4 school shootings that defined America, on the 5th anniversary of Newtown.

Online KJP

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Re: Gun Rights
« Reply #1869 on: January 25, 2018, 01:03:20 AM »
Seen on Facebook...

For Godís sake, stop allowing nearly unrestricted access to guns to a populace that canít stop eating Tide pods.
"Treat this (November 2018) election as if it's the last election in which you can fully exercise your democratic rights. Because it just might be." -- Margy Waller.

Offline MGM

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Re: Gun Rights
« Reply #1870 on: January 25, 2018, 01:25:17 AM »
but what irritates me about things like the gun debate is that the answer is to ban all guns or we need more guns and there is very little reasoning behind many of those arguments and they are often based solely on feeling.

Almost no one is calling for a ban on all guns.

http://www.cnn.com/2017/10/02/politics/bipartisan-gun-control-policies-majorities/index.html

Policy ideas with 75+% support of both parties:
-Preventing the mentally ill from purchasing guns
-Barring gun purchases to people on no-fly or watch lists
-Background checks for private sales and at gun shows

Policy ideas with 50+% support of both parties:
-Banning assault-style weapons
-Creating a federal database to track gun sales

How to enforce that? The vast majority of gun deaths are 1) suicides 2) Hood Rats killing each other with hand guns



Online KJP

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Re: Gun Rights
« Reply #1871 on: January 27, 2018, 10:16:34 PM »
14-year-olds all over the world donít like their classmates. Only America gives 14-year-olds easy access to semi-automatic rifles, shotguns, revolvers, and bulk ammunition. https://t.co/cuK4CtZRJ7
"Treat this (November 2018) election as if it's the last election in which you can fully exercise your democratic rights. Because it just might be." -- Margy Waller.

Offline smith

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Re: Gun Rights
« Reply #1872 on: March 01, 2018, 01:14:10 PM »
Paul Szoldra

Verified account
 
@PaulSzoldra
 3h3 hours ago
More
Obama: Some people cling to their guns and religion.

Fox News: HE HATES RELIGION AND HE WANTS TO TAKE YOUR GUNS.

Trump: We should take their guns and have due process later.

Fox News: HEY FOLKS, ITíS ALMOST CHERRY BLOSSOM SEASON IN WASHINGTON!

Offline David

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Re: Gun Rights
« Reply #1873 on: March 01, 2018, 03:00:49 PM »
14-year-olds all over the world don’t like their classmates. Only America gives 14-year-olds easy access to semi-automatic rifles, shotguns, revolvers, and bulk ammunition. https://t.co/cuK4CtZRJ7

Overall, I'd agree whole-heartedly but what's the deal with the Swiss? Why are they able to have guns and use them so much more responsibly? That's always the argument from pro-gun people.

Online freefourur

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Re: Gun Rights
« Reply #1874 on: March 01, 2018, 03:03:50 PM »
Guns are much more regulated in Switzerland than they are in the US.  I'd gladly adopt the Swiss model.

Offline DarkandStormy

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Re: Gun Rights
« Reply #1875 on: March 01, 2018, 03:06:12 PM »
14-year-olds all over the world don’t like their classmates. Only America gives 14-year-olds easy access to semi-automatic rifles, shotguns, revolvers, and bulk ammunition. https://t.co/cuK4CtZRJ7

Overall, I'd agree whole-heartedly but what's the deal with the Swiss? Why are they able to have guns and use them so much more responsibly? That's always the argument from pro-gun people.

The U.S. on a per capita basis owns nearly twice the amount of firearms as Switzerland.

Offline ColDayMan

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Re: Gun Rights
« Reply #1876 on: March 01, 2018, 05:39:53 PM »
Guns are much more regulated in Switzerland than they are in the US.  I'd gladly adopt the Swiss model.

Also, this:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conscription_in_Switzerland aka training.
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Online MikeInCanton

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Re: Gun Rights
« Reply #1877 on: March 01, 2018, 10:08:22 PM »
Call me a purest but the Constitution does not grant the right to own guns, it recognizes the natural right of self-defense. There is no regulation on firearms that is constitutional. None. The primary purpose of the 2nd Amendment is to ensure the final check on the government is never under any circumstance compromised.  One could even argue that it is not possible to repeal it given its language as the act itself would be an infringement.

The issue is clearly not guns. We've had guns in this country for a very long time but the mass shooting phenomenon is recent. There is something wrong for sure, but it is a societal issue. Of course, that is a harsher pill to swallow as it require a lot of honest self-reflection and a willingness to address the problems head-on. This is something many Americans seem allergic to.  Our society is such that many would sooner blame the sun for their sunburn than chastise themselves for not wearing sunscreen.
« Last Edit: March 01, 2018, 10:12:59 PM by MikeInCanton »

Offline jonoh81

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Re: Gun Rights
« Reply #1878 on: March 01, 2018, 10:19:47 PM »
Call me a purest but the Constitution does not grant the right to own guns, it recognizes the natural right of self-defense. There is no regulation on firearms that is constitutional. None. The primary purpose of the 2nd Amendment is to ensure the final check on the government is never under any circumstance compromised.  One could even argue that it is not possible to repeal it given its language as the act itself would be an infringement.

The issue is clearly not guns. We've had guns in this country for a very long time but the mass shooting phenomenon is recent. There is something wrong for sure, but it is a societal issue. Of course, that is a harsher pill to swallow as it require a lot of honest self-reflection and a willingness to address the problems head-on. This is something many Americans seem allergic to.  Our society is such that many would sooner blame the sun for their sunburn than chastise themselves for not wearing sunscreen.

I really am growing to truly dislike the "society is different now" argument.  Is it really?  If modern society has a unique problem with messed up, violent people, which period in history didn't have them, exactly?  Just because there are more mass shootings now doesn't mean that the same types of people weren't expressing their anger and other issues in other ways.  They most certainly were. 

Offline GCrites80s

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Re: Gun Rights
« Reply #1879 on: March 01, 2018, 10:30:59 PM »
Kids used to have a lot more outlets to unleash pent-up rage. Now they spend too much time inside or in highly structured activity. Kids in other countries still walk everywhere and can explore their cities on foot, transit and/or bicycle. They feel like other people care about them. They're not trapped.

Kids in the old days did stuuupid reckless stuff all the time. Crashing motorcycles and muscle cars all the time, making bike ramps out of doors, BB gun fights, high jumps, drugs all the time, strapping motors to skateboards... the stories my friends' dads have told me about the '60s and '70s were nuts.
« Last Edit: March 01, 2018, 10:37:08 PM by GCrites80s »

Online Cleburger

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Re: Gun Rights
« Reply #1880 on: March 01, 2018, 11:39:52 PM »
Research shows that despite the fact that kids today are statistically safer from violent crime than they were 30-40 years ago, parents perceive differently (hence the modern pheonmena of "Helicopter Parenting"). 

Along with many other of our current societal ills, I blame the 24 hour cable news networks.  I've traveled the world and I can honestly say it's saturation in other countries doesn't even come close to here in the USA.  You don't walk into a business and see a news network blaring behind the bar, or in a hair salon, or at a repair shop.   It's definitely an American thing.

Offline GCrites80s

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Re: Gun Rights
« Reply #1881 on: March 01, 2018, 11:53:26 PM »
I read a book about Pink Floyd a few years back. They talked about the Columbus show at the 'Shoe in 1988 and the band said they couldn't watch the news here since it was so nuts. That was 30 years ago. News is very "mellow" overseas for lack of a better word.

Online KJP

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Re: Gun Rights
« Reply #1882 on: March 02, 2018, 12:25:04 AM »
I can't watch the news because it makes me so angry. I literally have to turn off or I am going to destroy something. Social media is bad enough and I need to share it some place or else I'm gonna explode.
"Treat this (November 2018) election as if it's the last election in which you can fully exercise your democratic rights. Because it just might be." -- Margy Waller.

Offline taestell

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Re: Gun Rights
« Reply #1883 on: March 02, 2018, 12:36:35 AM »
One could even argue that it is not possible to repeal [the second amendment] given its language as the act itself would be an infringement.

Yeah... that's not how constitutional amendments work.

Online MikeInCanton

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Re: Gun Rights
« Reply #1884 on: March 02, 2018, 12:50:47 AM »
One could even argue that it is not possible to repeal [the second amendment] given its language as the act itself would be an infringement.

Yeah... that's not how constitutional amendments work.

It absolutely is.  "The right to bear arms hall not be infringed" is right there. Repealing is an infringement, is it not? Ergo, the 2nd cannot be repealed.

I am sure contemporary "wisdom" would say otherwise, but it is increasingly obvious to me that fewer and fewer people actually understand the document and its philosophical underpinnings.
« Last Edit: March 02, 2018, 12:53:53 AM by MikeInCanton »

Offline taestell

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Re: Gun Rights
« Reply #1885 on: March 02, 2018, 01:12:46 AM »
Quote
The Congress, whenever two thirds of both houses shall deem it necessary, shall propose amendments to this Constitution, or, on the application of the legislatures of two thirds of the several states, shall call a convention for proposing amendments, which, in either case, shall be valid to all intents and purposes, as part of this Constitution, when ratified by the legislatures of three fourths of the several states, or by conventions in three fourths thereof, as the one or the other mode of ratification may be proposed by the Congress; provided that no amendment which may be made prior to the year one thousand eight hundred and eight shall in any manner affect the first and fourth clauses in the ninth section of the first article; and that no state, without its consent, shall be deprived of its equal suffrage in the Senate.

It would be extremely unlikely that any of the Bill of Rights amendments would be repealed. However it is possible. There is nothing "magical" about the second amendment that would prevent it from being repealed by another amendment that got the sufficient votes.

Offline jam40jeff

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Re: Gun Rights
« Reply #1886 on: March 02, 2018, 01:28:08 AM »
The issue is clearly not guns.  We've had guns in this country for a very long time but the mass shooting phenomenon is recent.

We've never had this many:

Quote
According to the Congressional Research Service, there are roughly twice as many guns per capita in the United States as there were in 1968: more than 300 million guns in all.

Gun sales have increased in recent years. According to the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives, U.S. gun-makers produced nearly 11 million guns in 2013, the year after the Sandy Hook elementary school massacre. That's twice as many as they made in 2010.

(from https://www.npr.org/2016/01/05/462017461/guns-in-america-by-the-numbers)

There is something wrong for sure, but it is a societal issue. Of course, that is a harsher pill to swallow as it require a lot of honest self-reflection and a willingness to address the problems head-on. This is something many Americans seem allergic to.  Our society is such that many would sooner blame the sun for their sunburn than chastise themselves for not wearing sunscreen.

Even if there is a societal issue, why can't it be both?  Can we not regulate guns while also trying to address any hypothetical "societal issue" if it actually exists?  The two approaches aren't mutually exclusive.

Offline X

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Re: Gun Rights
« Reply #1887 on: March 02, 2018, 01:31:38 AM »
Call me a purest but the Constitution does not grant the right to own guns, it recognizes the natural right of self-defense. There is no regulation on firearms that is constitutional. None. The primary purpose of the 2nd Amendment is to ensure the final check on the government is never under any circumstance compromised.  One could even argue that it is not possible to repeal it given its language as the act itself would be an infringement.

The issue is clearly not guns. We've had guns in this country for a very long time but the mass shooting phenomenon is recent. There is something wrong for sure, but it is a societal issue. Of course, that is a harsher pill to swallow as it require a lot of honest self-reflection and a willingness to address the problems head-on. This is something many Americans seem allergic to.  Our society is such that many would sooner blame the sun for their sunburn than chastise themselves for not wearing sunscreen.

What part of "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State" makes you think that some sort of "final check" on the government has anything at all to do with the reasons the 2nd Amendment was added to the constitution?  It's nothing but juvenile Rambo fantasy to think that was the point.

Offline GCrites80s

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Re: Gun Rights
« Reply #1888 on: March 02, 2018, 02:15:22 AM »
That interpretation is actually only 2 years older than Rambo and Death Wish II. All that Vengeance Enforcer crap came at the same time... though I do like the movies themselves.
« Last Edit: March 02, 2018, 02:19:36 AM by GCrites80s »

Offline BCCLE1

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Re: Gun Rights
« Reply #1889 on: March 07, 2018, 11:20:54 AM »
A Republican tells the truth, and the Democrats throw a tantrum. During the course of this speech, and by the end of it, most Democrats walked out of the room. The left cannot handle the truth.