Author Topic: US Illegal Immigration  (Read 13861 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline freefourur

  • Jeddah Tower 3,281'
  • *****
  • Posts: 4131
Re: US Illegal Immigration
« Reply #390 on: July 25, 2018, 04:12:11 PM »
^ If no law was broken by such a person, then that person would not be an illegal immigrant, would they?

You had previously in the PC thread agreed that a person wouldn't be an illegal immigrant if they hadn't broken the law.  What changed?

Offline Gramarye

  • Global Moderator
  • Jeddah Tower 3,281'
  • *****
  • Posts: 6389
Re: US Illegal Immigration
« Reply #391 on: July 25, 2018, 04:14:16 PM »
^ If no law was broken by such a person, then that person would not be an illegal immigrant, would they?

You had previously in the PC thread agreed that a person wouldn't be an illegal immigrant if they hadn't broken the law.  What changed?

My mind, perhaps.  Or perhaps I find significance in the difference between "illegal immigrant" (since immigration is an act) and "illegal alien."  Or perhaps the context of the discussion there was different.

Offline freefourur

  • Jeddah Tower 3,281'
  • *****
  • Posts: 4131
Re: US Illegal Immigration
« Reply #392 on: July 25, 2018, 04:20:25 PM »
You are not being consistent with your definitions here. 

Illegal - contrary to or forbidden by law.
 
The connotation to the word illegal is that you have broken the law. We have already established that a child cannot break laws.

Actually, you're the one being inconsistent with definitions, even after you just posted the correct one.  The connotation of the word "illegal" is not what you say it is, and it shouldn't be based on your own post of the definition.  It simply means "contrary to or forbidden by law."  Many things are illegal that don't have a single identifiable perpetrator, let alone a criminal one.

But you are labeling a person using the term illegal which would in fact imply that they are the perpetrator of that illegal act.  You can't have it both ways. 

Offline edale

  • One SeaGate 411'
  • **
  • Posts: 474
Re: US Illegal Immigration
« Reply #393 on: July 25, 2018, 04:23:30 PM »
The competition is fierce, but this might be the stupidest bit of conversation I've seen on this site.

Offline jonoh81

  • One World Trade Center 1,776'
  • ****
  • Posts: 1264
Re: US Illegal Immigration
« Reply #394 on: July 25, 2018, 04:38:33 PM »
You are not being consistent with your definitions here. 

Illegal - contrary to or forbidden by law.
 
The connotation to the word illegal is that you have broken the law. We have already established that a child cannot break laws.

Actually, you're the one being inconsistent with definitions, even after you just posted the correct one.  The connotation of the word "illegal" is not what you say it is, and it shouldn't be based on your own post of the definition.  It simply means "contrary to or forbidden by law."  Many things are illegal that don't have a single identifiable perpetrator, let alone a criminal one.

Words change meaning all the time and language itself is constantly in flux.  To insist that the term "illegal" when applied to people has no negative connotations, especially now, is completely dishonest.  To me, calling a human being "illegal" is no different than calling them a w*tb**k, because everyone who isn't lying to themselves knows the purpose of using it.

Offline Gramarye

  • Global Moderator
  • Jeddah Tower 3,281'
  • *****
  • Posts: 6389
Re: US Illegal Immigration
« Reply #395 on: July 25, 2018, 04:49:48 PM »
The competition is fierce, but this might be the stupidest bit of conversation I've seen on this site.

Sigh.  Agreed, even having been part of it.

Offline Gramarye

  • Global Moderator
  • Jeddah Tower 3,281'
  • *****
  • Posts: 6389
Re: US Illegal Immigration
« Reply #396 on: August 09, 2018, 06:47:00 PM »
Judge Slams Administration for Trying to Deport Family While Case Is in Court

https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2018/08/judge-slams-administration-for-trying-to-deport-family-while-case-is-in-court/

A federal judge slammed the Trump administration on Thursday for trying to deport a mother and daughter to El Salvador while their case is still being heard in court and threatened to hold Attorney General Jeff Sessions in contempt.

“This is pretty outrageous,” Judge Emmet Sullivan of Washington said on Thursday, according to the Washington Post. “That someone seeking justice in US court is spirited away while her attorneys are arguing for justice for her?” Sullivan issued an emergency stay from the bench preventing the deportation of the family and six other people. But the mother and daughter were already on a plane bound for El Salvador, prompting Sullivan to order the government to turn the plane around.


The administration really is getting closer to the Andrew Jackson strategy (ignoring court orders when those orders interfere with the administration's political priorities, particularly regarding removal of certain persons).

Offline freefourur

  • Jeddah Tower 3,281'
  • *****
  • Posts: 4131
Re: US Illegal Immigration
« Reply #397 on: August 09, 2018, 08:43:50 PM »
Judge Slams Administration for Trying to Deport Family While Case Is in Court

https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2018/08/judge-slams-administration-for-trying-to-deport-family-while-case-is-in-court/

A federal judge slammed the Trump administration on Thursday for trying to deport a mother and daughter to El Salvador while their case is still being heard in court and threatened to hold Attorney General Jeff Sessions in contempt.

“This is pretty outrageous,” Judge Emmet Sullivan of Washington said on Thursday, according to the Washington Post. “That someone seeking justice in US court is spirited away while her attorneys are arguing for justice for her?” Sullivan issued an emergency stay from the bench preventing the deportation of the family and six other people. But the mother and daughter were already on a plane bound for El Salvador, prompting Sullivan to order the government to turn the plane around.


The administration really is getting closer to the Andrew Jackson strategy (ignoring court orders when those orders interfere with the administration's political priorities, particularly regarding removal of certain persons).
ignore the courts or replace the judge to get a favorable decision.

Offline Gramarye

  • Global Moderator
  • Jeddah Tower 3,281'
  • *****
  • Posts: 6389
Re: US Illegal Immigration
« Reply #398 on: August 10, 2018, 08:09:57 AM »
Judge-shopping is a bit more of a time-honored art, though there is also a time-honored art of pushback against it.  But it's clear that a lot of these cases were brought by the ACLU and other groups in courts where there was a high probability of getting a judge willing to try entering nationwide injunctions, for example.  So on that front, I'm not quite as concerned.  Both sides play that game.

Ignoring a court order ... or misleading a court by omitting things like "the trial isn't over, but the sentence is already being carried out" ... is a bit more concerning.

Offline freefourur

  • Jeddah Tower 3,281'
  • *****
  • Posts: 4131
Re: US Illegal Immigration
« Reply #399 on: August 10, 2018, 08:36:13 AM »
Judge-shopping is a bit more of a time-honored art, though there is also a time-honored art of pushback against it.  But it's clear that a lot of these cases were brought by the ACLU and other groups in courts where there was a high probability of getting a judge willing to try entering nationwide injunctions, for example.  So on that front, I'm not quite as concerned.  Both sides play that game.

Ignoring a court order ... or misleading a court by omitting things like "the trial isn't over, but the sentence is already being carried out" ... is a bit more concerning.

I was referring to the DOJ removing a judge and replacing him with another but if that is what you refer to as judge shopping I will defer to your expertise.

Offline Brutus_buckeye

  • Jeddah Tower 3,281'
  • *****
  • Posts: 2941
Re: US Illegal Immigration
« Reply #400 on: August 10, 2018, 08:38:02 AM »
I don't know all the specifics about this case but when it comes to trying to circumvent a judges order, even if that order may later be overturned, Courts are quick to slap that down.

The administration should know better on this one. It was a bush league move.

Offline freefourur

  • Jeddah Tower 3,281'
  • *****
  • Posts: 4131
Re: US Illegal Immigration
« Reply #401 on: August 10, 2018, 08:38:54 AM »
I don't know all the specifics about this case but when it comes to trying to circumvent a judges order, even if that order may later be overturned, Courts are quick to slap that down.

The administration should know better on this one. It was a bush league move.

TBF, this is a bush league administration.

Offline Ram23

  • Jeddah Tower 3,281'
  • *****
  • Posts: 6029
Re: US Illegal Immigration
« Reply #402 on: August 10, 2018, 08:43:51 AM »
The administration has long been sending a message that immigration cases need to move through the system faster so that the government isn't responsible for detaining and/or tracking the whereabouts of illegal immigrants for months on end. This action sends that message very sternly and very clearly, IMO.

Offline Gramarye

  • Global Moderator
  • Jeddah Tower 3,281'
  • *****
  • Posts: 6389
Re: US Illegal Immigration
« Reply #403 on: August 10, 2018, 08:46:21 AM »
Judge-shopping is a bit more of a time-honored art, though there is also a time-honored art of pushback against it.  But it's clear that a lot of these cases were brought by the ACLU and other groups in courts where there was a high probability of getting a judge willing to try entering nationwide injunctions, for example.  So on that front, I'm not quite as concerned.  Both sides play that game.

Ignoring a court order ... or misleading a court by omitting things like "the trial isn't over, but the sentence is already being carried out" ... is a bit more concerning.

I was referring to the DOJ removing a judge and replacing him with another but if that is what you refer to as judge shopping I will defer to your expertise.

Where has this been happening?  What are you referring to here?

Offline freefourur

  • Jeddah Tower 3,281'
  • *****
  • Posts: 4131
Re: US Illegal Immigration
« Reply #404 on: August 10, 2018, 08:48:03 AM »
Judge-shopping is a bit more of a time-honored art, though there is also a time-honored art of pushback against it.  But it's clear that a lot of these cases were brought by the ACLU and other groups in courts where there was a high probability of getting a judge willing to try entering nationwide injunctions, for example.  So on that front, I'm not quite as concerned.  Both sides play that game.

Ignoring a court order ... or misleading a court by omitting things like "the trial isn't over, but the sentence is already being carried out" ... is a bit more concerning.

I was referring to the DOJ removing a judge and replacing him with another but if that is what you refer to as judge shopping I will defer to your expertise.

Where has this been happening?  What are you referring to here?

This here.  Unless I am misunderstanding what is happening here.

https://www.law.com/thelegalintelligencer/2018/08/03/immigration-lawyers-view-judge-removal-as-chilling-message-from-doj/?slreturn=20180710084805

Offline freefourur

  • Jeddah Tower 3,281'
  • *****
  • Posts: 4131
Re: US Illegal Immigration
« Reply #405 on: August 10, 2018, 08:48:28 AM »
The administration has long been sending a message that immigration cases need to move through the system faster so that the government isn't responsible for detaining and/or tracking the whereabouts of illegal immigrants for months on end. This action sends that message very sternly and very clearly, IMO.

So are we suspending the 5th and 14th amendment now?