Author Topic: US Illegal Immigration  (Read 16683 times)

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Offline DarkandStormy

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Re: US Illegal Immigration
« Reply #120 on: June 13, 2018, 02:17:14 PM »
https://www.cnn.com/2018/06/13/politics/daca-deal-house-immigration/index.html

Quote
Republican negotiations on a House immigration bill that would fix the Deferred Action for Childhood Arrivals program are in the final stages, key lawmakers said as they left a secretive meeting in the House basement on Wednesday.

A DACA deal is apparently imminent (please move to another thread if this is not the correct one).
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Offline Gramarye

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Re: US Illegal Immigration
« Reply #121 on: June 13, 2018, 02:22:02 PM »
So... we supposedly can't do better, so a kid prison is totally fine?

As opposed to an adult prison?  Or just turning them loose on the streets?

These are kids for whom we can't locate any family.  Therefore, this has nothing to do with earlier points about family separation.

I'm not sure what point you're even trying to make here.  I'd agree that it would be preferable to leave them in the care of a private individual, and based on the comparatively small number of people involved here, it certainly sounds like the vast majority of UACs are finding their way to sponsored individuals or other private living arrangements.  It would be great to make it 100%, but that's likely unattainable, so yes, this may be the best we can do.  In fact, I'm not even sure what the situation would be if they won their asylum claims (or other claims) and were allowed to stay ... they'd still be in a situation of having come to America without a responsible adult guardian.

Offline jonoh81

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Re: US Illegal Immigration
« Reply #122 on: June 13, 2018, 02:33:28 PM »
So... we supposedly can't do better, so a kid prison is totally fine?

As opposed to an adult prison?  Or just turning them loose on the streets?

These are kids for whom we can't locate any family.  Therefore, this has nothing to do with earlier points about family separation.

I'm not sure what point you're even trying to make here.  I'd agree that it would be preferable to leave them in the care of a private individual, and based on the comparatively small number of people involved here, it certainly sounds like the vast majority of UACs are finding their way to sponsored individuals or other private living arrangements.  It would be great to make it 100%, but that's likely unattainable, so yes, this may be the best we can do.  In fact, I'm not even sure what the situation would be if they won their asylum claims (or other claims) and were allowed to stay ... they'd still be in a situation of having come to America without a responsible adult guardian.

There are how many abandoned/unused schools, hospitals, homes, etc. across the country?  You're telling me that they can't be adapted as temporary shelters while finding suitable caregivers?  Don't say "it would be great" and then defend the opposite.  The prison idea is cruel, spiteful and morally abhorrent.  If we can't do better than that, we're failures as Americans and human beings.

Offline Gramarye

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Re: US Illegal Immigration
« Reply #123 on: June 13, 2018, 02:59:09 PM »
There are how many abandoned/unused schools, hospitals, homes, etc. across the country?  You're telling me that they can't be adapted as temporary shelters while finding suitable caregivers?  Don't say "it would be great" and then defend the opposite.  The prison idea is cruel, spiteful and morally abhorrent.  If we can't do better than that, we're failures as Americans and human beings.

It was already posted earlier, I think in this thread, that one of the existing shelters is an old Wal-Mart.  The original article called this a "tent city," not a prison.  The "prison camp" gloss was your own and I think you're thinking of something like a POW camp (of the non-Hogan's Heroes variety).  It's not like anyone has actually seen a proposed design or rendering of any such proposed camp.

And yes, I think your throwaway assumption about "finding suitable caregivers" is nowhere near as simple as you're suggesting.

Offline jonoh81

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Re: US Illegal Immigration
« Reply #124 on: June 13, 2018, 03:05:19 PM »
There are how many abandoned/unused schools, hospitals, homes, etc. across the country?  You're telling me that they can't be adapted as temporary shelters while finding suitable caregivers?  Don't say "it would be great" and then defend the opposite.  The prison idea is cruel, spiteful and morally abhorrent.  If we can't do better than that, we're failures as Americans and human beings.

It was already posted earlier, I think in this thread, that one of the existing shelters is an old Wal-Mart.  The original article called this a "tent city," not a prison.  The "prison camp" gloss was your own and I think you're thinking of something like a POW camp (of the non-Hogan's Heroes variety).  It's not like anyone has actually seen a proposed design or rendering of any such proposed camp.

And yes, I think your throwaway assumption about "finding suitable caregivers" is nowhere near as simple as you're suggesting.

It wasn't criticized for being a Wal-Mart, but the actual conditions inside it.  I'm not talking about establishing "tent city" Hoovervilles for children.  "Temporary" doesn't mean cages and armed guards, either. 

Who said it was simple?  We used to be an aspirational country.  How about getting back to that? 

Offline Gramarye

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Re: US Illegal Immigration
« Reply #125 on: June 13, 2018, 03:13:57 PM »
We are.  We are getting back to the aspiration of having immigration laws that are actually obeyed.  It has only been promised through forked tongues by politicians for a generation or so, ever since the first big amnesty in the late 1980s.

Offline freefourur

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Re: US Illegal Immigration
« Reply #126 on: June 13, 2018, 03:17:00 PM »
We are.  We are getting back to the aspiration of having immigration laws that are actually obeyed. It has only been promised through forked tongues by politicians for a generation or so, ever since the first big amnesty in the late 1980s.

So you're implying that putting children in cages is fine because it is part of what our aspiration should be. I don't to ever hear about how we are founded on Judeo-Christian principles anymore.  Because aspiring to not welcome your neighbors is neither Judeo nor Christian.

Offline Gramarye

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Re: US Illegal Immigration
« Reply #127 on: June 13, 2018, 03:24:07 PM »
I somehow missed the commandment for open borders in the Bible.

Offline freefourur

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Re: US Illegal Immigration
« Reply #128 on: June 13, 2018, 03:25:18 PM »
I somehow missed the commandment for open borders in the Bible.

I somehow missed the commandment to jail those seeking refuge. 

Offline DarkandStormy

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Re: US Illegal Immigration
« Reply #129 on: June 13, 2018, 03:29:01 PM »
I somehow missed the commandment for open borders in the Bible.

"Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me" (Matthew 25:40, 45)
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Offline freefourur

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Re: US Illegal Immigration
« Reply #130 on: June 13, 2018, 03:33:14 PM »
“When a stranger sojourns with you in your land, you shall not do him wrong. You shall treat the stranger who sojourns with you as the native among you, and you shall love him as yourself, for you were strangers in the land of Egypt: I am the Lord your God.

Sounds a lot like open borders to me. TBH

Offline bfwissel

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Re: US Illegal Immigration
« Reply #131 on: June 13, 2018, 03:44:02 PM »
“When a stranger sojourns with you in your land, you shall not do him wrong. You shall treat the stranger who sojourns with you as the native among you, and you shall love him as yourself, for you were strangers in the land of Egypt: I am the Lord your God.

Sounds a lot like open borders to me. TBH

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Offline freefourur

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Re: US Illegal Immigration
« Reply #132 on: June 13, 2018, 03:45:25 PM »
Leviticus 19:33-34

Offline mu2010

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Re: US Illegal Immigration
« Reply #133 on: June 13, 2018, 03:51:10 PM »
That's an amazing quote. Democrats should be throwing that in evangelical faces far more often. I wouldn't say it means open borders, but it definitely argues for treating immigrants who are already here with a path to citizenship. (amnesty)

Offline 327

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Re: US Illegal Immigration
« Reply #134 on: June 13, 2018, 03:54:40 PM »
“When a stranger sojourns with you in your land, you shall not do him wrong. You shall treat the stranger who sojourns with you as the native among you, and you shall love him as yourself, for you were strangers in the land of Egypt: I am the Lord your God.

Sounds a lot like open borders to me. TBH

Sounds like G-d doesn't support apartheid either.

Offline Ram23

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Re: US Illegal Immigration
« Reply #135 on: June 13, 2018, 04:01:11 PM »
In Acts 17:26, it was pointed out that "From one man (God) made every nation of men, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he determined the times set for them and the exact places where they should live."

So, by this measure, our border with Mexico is God's will, as borders themselves are God's creation.

Offline freefourur

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Re: US Illegal Immigration
« Reply #136 on: June 13, 2018, 04:05:38 PM »
In Acts 17:26, it was pointed out that "From one man (God) made every nation of men, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he determined the times set for them and the exact places where they should live."

So, by this measure, our border with Mexico is God's will, as borders themselves are God's creation.

There was no United States at the time. Therefore, God did not intend the United States to even exist.

even if the borders are God's creation, God commands us to love the stranger as ourselves.  See Leviticus 19:33-34
« Last Edit: June 13, 2018, 04:43:19 PM by freefourur »

Offline DarkandStormy

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Re: US Illegal Immigration
« Reply #137 on: June 13, 2018, 04:51:30 PM »
I somehow missed the commandment for open borders in the Bible.

I somehow missed that "Christians" only follow the Commandments or the part in the Constitution where it says we follow only the Commandments in the Bible.

This was a terrible attempt to not only refute open borders but to refute the notion that we should treat other humans with dignity.  I'd suggest reading both the Bible and the Constitution based on your response.  Good luck to you.
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Offline Gramarye

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Re: US Illegal Immigration
« Reply #138 on: June 13, 2018, 05:13:34 PM »
We should treat other humans with dignity.  But that doesn't mean three-star hotels for people flouting our laws.  And it certainly doesn't mean open borders or a case for amnesty (that will just be a signal to others considering immigrating illegally that the line is wide-open to jumping once again).  That is a wild perversion of the Christian call to hospitality.

Offline mu2010

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Re: US Illegal Immigration
« Reply #139 on: June 13, 2018, 05:20:56 PM »
If you combine amnesty with tightening of the border, there's no reason amnesty would be such a signal. The real reason Republicans don't want immigration reform with amnesty is because it would solve the problem, and thus, give them nothing to demagogue on in the next election.

Offline DarkandStormy

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Re: US Illegal Immigration
« Reply #140 on: June 13, 2018, 05:21:14 PM »
We should treat other humans with dignity.  But that doesn't mean three-star hotels for people flouting our laws.  And it certainly doesn't mean open borders or a case for amnesty (that will just be a signal to others considering immigrating illegally that the line is wide-open to jumping once again).  That is a wild perversion of the Christian call to hospitality.

Do you only live your life according to the Commandments and do you believe the Commandments should be the sole basis for government policy?
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Offline freefourur

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Re: US Illegal Immigration
« Reply #141 on: June 13, 2018, 05:24:38 PM »
Is the argument now that ripping a breastfeeding infant from its mother comport with biblical teachings of hospitality? 

Offline DarkandStormy

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Re: US Illegal Immigration
« Reply #142 on: June 13, 2018, 05:27:44 PM »
https://www.cnn.com/2018/06/12/us/immigration-separated-children-southern-border/index.html

Quote
The undocumented immigrant from Honduras sobbed as she told an attorney Tuesday how federal authorities took her daughter while she breastfed the child in a detention center, where she was awaiting prosecution for entering the country illegally.

When the woman resisted, she was handcuffed, Natalia Cornelio, the attorney with the Texas Civil Rights Project, recalled from her interview with the woman, who had been detained under the Trump administration's zero-tolerance policy to refer anyone caught crossing the border illegally for federal prosecution.
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Offline Gramarye

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Re: US Illegal Immigration
« Reply #143 on: June 13, 2018, 05:54:10 PM »
We should treat other humans with dignity.  But that doesn't mean three-star hotels for people flouting our laws.  And it certainly doesn't mean open borders or a case for amnesty (that will just be a signal to others considering immigrating illegally that the line is wide-open to jumping once again).  That is a wild perversion of the Christian call to hospitality.

Do you only live your life according to the Commandments and do you believe the Commandments should be the sole basis for government policy?

No.  And perhaps that would be a better response to freefourur's comment about not wanting to hear about the Judeo-Christian foundations of America henceforth.  But of course, there is a significant strain of Judeo-Christian thought in America's founding principles, even though it's obviously not the only influence in our law or politics.

But of course the actual, direct mission statement of the foundations of our law, the Constitution, is that the Constitution exists "in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity."  Perhaps you think that unlimited immigration is justice and a more perfect union.  I believe that establishing justice, promoting the general welfare, and securing the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity require limiting the flow of immigrants, especially illegal ones that will underbid American wages and allow employers to evade federal and state labor laws.

Offline 327

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Re: US Illegal Immigration
« Reply #144 on: June 13, 2018, 07:10:12 PM »
"Ourselves" in that context could be read any number of ways.  I doubt it was meant to indicate closed borders in 1787, so when exactly did they intend for the cutoff to occur?  Not clear.  And it certainly did not include those 3/5 people, if you know what I mean, even though they were living here at the time.  Nothing undercuts wages quite like they did, but that was viewed as a windfall.

Offline jonoh81

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Re: US Illegal Immigration
« Reply #145 on: June 13, 2018, 07:54:43 PM »
We are.  We are getting back to the aspiration of having immigration laws that are actually obeyed.  It has only been promised through forked tongues by politicians for a generation or so, ever since the first big amnesty in the late 1980s.

When oh when was this magical time when every person coming to America was following the letter of the law?  And no, I am not making the argument that past discretions make present ones okay, but that notion is simply revisionism at best. 

And we're still talking about kids.  But I get it, after birth, they're someone else's problem, right?  That's the conservative way.

Offline GCrites80s

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Re: US Illegal Immigration
« Reply #146 on: June 13, 2018, 08:16:06 PM »
^no sex if poor

Offline KJP

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Re: US Illegal Immigration
« Reply #147 on: June 13, 2018, 09:45:39 PM »
Catholic leaders denounce Sessions’s asylum decision: ‘We have truly lost our moral compass.’
https://www.americamagazine.org/politics-society/2018/06/13/catholic-leaders-denounce-sessionss-asylum-decision-we-have-truly-lost
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Offline Gramarye

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Re: US Illegal Immigration
« Reply #148 on: June 13, 2018, 11:53:50 PM »
"Ourselves" in that context could be read any number of ways.  I doubt it was meant to indicate closed borders in 1787, so when exactly did they intend for the cutoff to occur?  Not clear.  And it certainly did not include those 3/5 people, if you know what I mean, even though they were living here at the time.  Nothing undercuts wages quite like they did, but that was viewed as a windfall.

On the former point, there is of course no "cutoff" and there is no carved-in-stone number of legal immigrants per year that must always be the case.  So I don't know where you're going with thus talk of a "cutoff."

On the latter point, of course the original Constitution contained a lot of inhumane compromises on the issue of slavery (though of course remember that it was the Southerners who wanted to count slaves as full persons and the Northerners that wanted to count them as zero in the infamous 3/5 compromise ... people forget that).  The even more banal evil in it was the casual discussion of the "importation of Persons" in Art I. s. 9.

We are.  We are getting back to the aspiration of having immigration laws that are actually obeyed.  It has only been promised through forked tongues by politicians for a generation or so, ever since the first big amnesty in the late 1980s.

When oh when was this magical time when every person coming to America was following the letter of the law?  And no, I am not making the argument that past discretions make present ones okay, but that notion is simply revisionism at best.

I'm happy just getting back to the aspiration, even if the actuality won't measure up.  But it's certainly better to try than to not.

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