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Author Topic: US Illegal Immigration  (Read 7235 times)

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Online KJP

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Re: US Illegal Immigration
« Reply #90 on: June 11, 2018, 04:17:09 PM »
The inhumanity and cruelty of this administration is worsening by the day. And yet we are powerless to stop it....

Trump admin drops asylum protections for domestic violence victims
https://www.cnn.com/2018/06/11/politics/jeff-sessions-asylum-decision/index.html
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Online Gramarye

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Re: US Illegal Immigration
« Reply #91 on: June 11, 2018, 05:00:49 PM »
If domestic violence is a basis for claiming asylum in America, there would be probably more than a billion potentially valid asylum claims.  If gang violence is also a basis, that adds many, many millions more.  At the very least, that is not something that should be just kind of snuck into the law on the back end by the executive branch.  Convince enough of your countrymen that that actually should be the law and you can get that policy written into federal statute, the way it's supposed to be done.

Online freefourur

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Re: US Illegal Immigration
« Reply #92 on: June 11, 2018, 05:43:02 PM »
^ that was the policy until today and we don't have 1 billion asylum seekers now

Online KJP

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Re: US Illegal Immigration
« Reply #93 on: June 11, 2018, 05:46:39 PM »
Session claims that victims of domestic or gang violence are merely "private crimes" but when governmental enabled cultures and corruption that discourage prosecution of domestic abusers or gang crimes, then it falls outside of private crimes or at least it did until the Trump Administration added its warm and fuzzy touch....

https://www.politico.com/story/2018/06/11/jeff-sessions-aslyum-standards-domestic-violence-614158

In 2014, the Board of Immigration Appeals ruled that “married women in Guatemala who are unable to leave their relationship” constitute a social group under the standard, which bolstered the claims of women fleeing violence in Central America.

Sessions said the 2014 decision lacked “the rigorous analysis” required to establish precedent and overrode the ruling.

“The mere fact that a country may have problems policing certain crimes effectively — such as domestic violence or gang violence — or that certain populations are more likely to be victims of crime, cannot itself establish an asylum claim,” the attorney general wrote.
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Online KJP

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Re: US Illegal Immigration
« Reply #94 on: June 12, 2018, 07:50:40 AM »
People need to go to prison for this. If they did this to my immigrant child, whether you claim you were "just following orders" or not, you'd better pray that prison finds you before I do....

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Online Gramarye

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Re: US Illegal Immigration
« Reply #95 on: June 12, 2018, 08:06:51 AM »
^ that was the policy from 2014 until today and we don't have 1 billion asylum seekers now

FTFY.

Online freefourur

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Re: US Illegal Immigration
« Reply #96 on: June 12, 2018, 08:21:18 AM »
^ that was the policy from 2014 until today and we don't have 1 billion asylum seekers now

FTFY.

OK. But we still haven't had a billion asylum seekers.

Online Gramarye

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Re: US Illegal Immigration
« Reply #97 on: June 12, 2018, 08:50:44 AM »
Maybe so.  But of course my statement was about the pool of potentially valid asylum claims.  If we let Obama's flouting of the law become the de facto policy, then it was only a matter of time before growing public awareness of that gaping hole in the our asylum-claims law led to the proverbial floodgates.

Why exactly should the risk of being the victim of ordinary crime of any kind warrant a jump-everyone-else-in-line ticket across the U.S. border?

Online freefourur

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Re: US Illegal Immigration
« Reply #98 on: June 12, 2018, 09:01:22 AM »
Maybe so.  But of course my statement was about the pool of potentially valid asylum claims.  If we let Obama's flouting of the law become the de facto policy, then it was only a matter of time before growing public awareness of that gaping hole in the our asylum-claims law led to the proverbial floodgates.

Why exactly should the risk of being the victim of ordinary crime of any kind warrant a jump-everyone-else-in-line ticket across the U.S. border?

although, this administration has no problem enforcing the separation of children from parents based on the previous administrations "policy."  They like to pick and choose which ones need to be followed.

Online Gramarye

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Re: US Illegal Immigration
« Reply #99 on: June 12, 2018, 09:22:11 AM »
So did Obama vis-a-vis Bush.  So does every president.  You don't just burn the entire U.S. Code and CFR every four years and start over, you know.

Online freefourur

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Re: US Illegal Immigration
« Reply #100 on: June 12, 2018, 09:23:27 AM »
So did Obama vis-a-vis Bush.  So does every president.  You don't just burn the entire U.S. Code and CFR every four years and start over, you know.

But Trump is picking and choosing in order to be inhumane to people.  I hope you can see that disctinction.

Online KJP

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Re: US Illegal Immigration
« Reply #101 on: June 12, 2018, 09:28:25 AM »

Why exactly should the risk of being the victim of ordinary crime of any kind warrant a jump-everyone-else-in-line ticket across the U.S. border?

I understand you probably don't read my posts, but read this answer.... Because governments and their law enforcement organizations in countries from which asylum seekers flee neglect victims of ordinary crimes like domestic violence and gang violence for reasons of corruption or culture. Those are legitimate reasons for seeking asylum, and when we had a more humane government ourselves, it concurred.
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Online Gramarye

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Re: US Illegal Immigration
« Reply #102 on: June 12, 2018, 09:31:45 AM »
I don't see it.  Not over the longer term and not taking into account the importance of actually enforcing immigration law.

When people stop coming here illegally, scenes like the one that KJP posted will not happen anymore.  And, of course, when parents are deported, minor children without a guardian capable of caring for them in the US are almost always deported with them, so the families are reunited.  They're just not allowed to stay here.

By and large, I have yet to see a solid argument from someone with actual credibility as wanting to reduce the flow of illegal immigration (by means other than simply making it legal) arguing that there are softer measures that would actually result in actual enforcement of the law.  It's fairly clear that your and KJP's "humane" solution would involve letting them stay, regardless of whether the law allows them to be here or not.  That makes it a nonstarter.

Online Gramarye

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Re: US Illegal Immigration
« Reply #103 on: June 12, 2018, 09:35:12 AM »

Why exactly should the risk of being the victim of ordinary crime of any kind warrant a jump-everyone-else-in-line ticket across the U.S. border?

I understand you probably don't read my posts, but read this answer.... Because governments and their law enforcement organizations in countries from which asylum seekers flee neglect victims of ordinary crimes like domestic violence and gang violence for reasons of corruption or culture. Those are legitimate reasons for seeking asylum, and when we had a more humane government ourselves, it concurred.

Wait, are you suggesting those countries really actually are s***holes after all?!  Thoughtcrime!  Anathema!  I look forward to your progressive philotheoparoptesism. :P

P.S. I read your posts.  I just don't generally read your links because you've admitted you don't read them yourself either.

Online KJP

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Re: US Illegal Immigration
« Reply #104 on: June 12, 2018, 09:49:31 AM »
Of course they're dysfunctional countries. I don't need to resort to insults that add a taint to people who otherwise are not responsible for the conduct of their leaders, any more than I am for my dear leader. As an American, I received a fair amount of teasing while in Canada and Europe in the past week. I had no defense for my country's indefensible actions except to ask for sympathy for my living under the taint of our nonsensical, childish, destructive leader. Like the nations from which asylum seekers flee, we also have a dysfunctional federal government but our nation continues to offer a competitive quality of life due to many (but not all) functional state and local governments which will never get international attention and is ultimately eroded by federal incompetence/criminality.

And it doesn't bother me that you don't read my links. I post them only to show that I share beliefs with others who have an audience/following, or that I should not claim a statement as my own when it's not.
« Last Edit: June 12, 2018, 09:52:22 AM by KJP »
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Online KJP

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Re: US Illegal Immigration
« Reply #105 on: June 12, 2018, 10:44:38 AM »
It would be appropriate if the international community enacts economic sanctions against the USA for its human rights abuses....

US must stop separating migrant children from parents: UN
https://www.yahoo.com/news/us-must-stop-separating-migrant-children-parents-un-193204947.html
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Online GCrites80s

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Re: US Illegal Immigration
« Reply #106 on: June 12, 2018, 10:51:45 AM »
Of course we have to flirt with human rights violations under Trump.

Offline Foraker

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Re: US Illegal Immigration
« Reply #107 on: June 12, 2018, 11:18:25 AM »
I don't see it.  Not over the longer term and not taking into account the importance of actually enforcing immigration law.

When people stop coming here illegally, scenes like the one that KJP posted will not happen anymore. 


*Families* are coming to the border and requesting permission to enter the US legally under the asylum provisions of our immigration laws -- they are following the rules and requesting permission to immigrate! -- and we are separating the children from their parents. 

If this were not the case, and we were simply using this separation as a way to punish those who snuck into the country and got caught, I would still object to punishing innocent children who were brought here by their parents -- why separate the family if they are all going to be deported together anyway?  It makes no financial or administrative sense, whatever your view on the moral issue. 

The "family values" and "fiscally responsible" Republicant Party is being neither with these actions. 

If this is the case, and you still think it is justified, then that is why

Offline edale

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Re: US Illegal Immigration
« Reply #108 on: June 12, 2018, 11:31:18 AM »
Funny that the guy who is so worried about the catechism and morality as it relates to gay married couples buying a frickin wedding cake is totally ok with separating small children from their families and turning away victims of violence at the border. The christian right only cares about the life of the unborn.

Offline Ram23

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Re: US Illegal Immigration
« Reply #109 on: June 12, 2018, 11:35:58 AM »
*Families* are coming to the border and requesting permission to enter the US legally under the asylum provisions of our immigration laws -- they are following the rules and requesting permission to immigrate! -- and we are separating the children from their parents. 

My understanding is that the separation only occurs when someone is caught illegally entering the United States and only then decides to seek asylum - after they're arrested. If parents follow the proper procedure - arriving at a port of entry and asking for asylum - they are not separated from their children. The former obviously need to be separated as the parents are put in jail (justifiably so) and we can't lock kids up with them.

Source:

At a May 15 Senate committee hearing, DHS Secretary Kirstjen Nielsen said that families who present themselves at ports of entry seeking asylum are able to stay together. (DHS told PolitiFact that a family may be separated at a port of entry if the department is unable to determine custodial relationship or if DHS determines that a child may be at risk with the custodian.) Families who are apprehended illegally crossing the border are separated.

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/article/2018/may/29/sorting-out-facts-about-nearly-1500-lost-children-/

Online GCrites80s

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Re: US Illegal Immigration
« Reply #110 on: June 12, 2018, 11:43:22 AM »
Funny that the guy who is so worried about the catechism and morality as it relates to gay married couples buying a frickin wedding cake is totally ok with separating small children from their families and turning away victims of violence at the border. The christian right only cares about the life of the unborn.

*COUGH* W.A.S.P. unborn *COUGH*


Online Gramarye

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Re: US Illegal Immigration
« Reply #111 on: June 12, 2018, 11:54:42 AM »
I don't see it.  Not over the longer term and not taking into account the importance of actually enforcing immigration law.

When people stop coming here illegally, scenes like the one that KJP posted will not happen anymore. 


*Families* are coming to the border and requesting permission to enter the US legally under the asylum provisions of our immigration laws -- they are following the rules and requesting permission to immigrate! -- and we are separating the children from their parents. 

If this were not the case, and we were simply using this separation as a way to punish those who snuck into the country and got caught, I would still object to punishing innocent children who were brought here by their parents -- why separate the family if they are all going to be deported together anyway?  It makes no financial or administrative sense, whatever your view on the moral issue.

Except that I don't think this is what is happening.  At least not generally.  These two issues are separate.  The families that are being separated are generally not the families that are legally claiming asylum.

https://www.vox.com/2018/6/11/17443198/children-immigrant-families-separated-parents

There are also some cases in which immigrant families are being separated after coming to ports of entry and presenting themselves for asylum — thus following US law. It’s not clear how often this is happening, though it’s definitely not as widespread as separation of families who’ve crossed illegally.

On those issues, I'm much more sympathetic, because merely presenting oneself for asylum rather than sneaking in is obviously not a criminal offense (even if the asylum claim is denied).

Offline Foraker

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Re: US Illegal Immigration
« Reply #112 on: June 12, 2018, 09:46:33 PM »
*Families* are coming to the border and requesting permission to enter the US legally under the asylum provisions of our immigration laws -- they are following the rules and requesting permission to immigrate! -- and we are separating the children from their parents. 

If this were not the case, and we were simply using this separation as a way to punish those who snuck into the country and got caught, I would still object to punishing innocent children who were brought here by their parents -- why separate the family if they are all going to be deported together anyway?  It makes no financial or administrative sense, whatever your view on the moral issue.

On those issues, I'm much more sympathetic, because merely presenting oneself for asylum rather than sneaking in is obviously not a criminal offense (even if the asylum claim is denied).

I still disagree that there is any good reason to separate the family if you're going to deport the family anyway. 
Doing so increases the financial and administrative burdens of deportation.  Where are those anti-waste Republicans?  Where are the pro-family Republicans? 

Some may see this as a just punishment to discourage further illegal immigrants, but if they were desperate enough to leave their homes and come to a foreign country illegally, they're probably not thinking that being separated from their children is as awful as whatever they left behind -- at least the kids are safe (or should be).  And why should we be punishing innocent kids? 

This whole project is as misguided as the War on Drugs that we couldn't win.  We need to find a way to let more immigrants in at our southern border legally and prosecute the hell out of the businesses that hire the illegal immigrants, not the desperate immigrants coming here.  Let's get back to the America that was great for taking in refugees when the rest of the world wouldn't.

The New Colossus
Not like the brazen giant of Greek fame,
With conquering limbs astride from land to land;
Here at our sea-washed, sunset gates shall stand
A mighty woman with a torch, whose flame
Is the imprisoned lightning, and her name
Mother of Exiles. From her beacon-hand
Glows world-wide welcome; her mild eyes command
The air-bridged harbor that twin cities frame.
"Keep, ancient lands, your storied pomp!" cries she
With silent lips. "Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"


Emma Lazarus
November 2, 1883


Online KJP

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Re: US Illegal Immigration
« Reply #113 on: June 12, 2018, 09:56:31 PM »
We'll see if this is true. If it is, blocking highways to protest police shootings will be considered meek and polite....

@WesleyLowery
The President of the United States reportedly considering construction of a prison camp to hold up to 5,000 children
http://www.mcclatchydc.com/news/politics-government/white-house/article213026379.html
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Online jonoh81

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Re: US Illegal Immigration
« Reply #114 on: June 13, 2018, 07:55:21 AM »
We'll see if this is true. If it is, blocking highways to protest police shootings will be considered meek and polite....

@WesleyLowery
The President of the United States reportedly considering construction of a prison camp to hold up to 5,000 children
http://www.mcclatchydc.com/news/politics-government/white-house/article213026379.html

I really hope this isn’t true.  Are other sources reporting it?

Online Gramarye

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Re: US Illegal Immigration
« Reply #115 on: June 13, 2018, 08:33:00 AM »
I haven't seen this yet, and I haven't looked into it beyond reading the link (so apparently I do occasionally read links KJP posts), but this seems facially plausible.  Remember, "unaccompanied" (the "U" in UAC) is a term of art in immigration law, and I understand it to mean children who never had their parents with them either at the US border or within it.  So these children were not separated from their parents by US authorities; they were already separated outside our borders before they arrived.

As I understand from earlier posts in this thread, the regular immigration thread, and elsewhere, the first choice for such children is to place them with a "sponsoring individual," usually a relative.  But sponsoring individuals may become harder to find now that it's known that Trump has dissolved the wall between ORR and ICE, meaning that if an illegal immigrant tries to become a sponsoring individual, they are at risk of being turned over to ICE.  Therefore, the question becomes what to do with unaccompanied children when no sponsoring individual can be found.  I think the second choice is the foster care system (I'm fuzzy on this).  But even that system may be overloaded in places.  I'm just making guesses on what seems intuitive here because of the numbers.  The proposed temporary shelter (camp) is suggested as having a capacity between 1500 and 5000.  That is multiple orders of magnitude smaller than the flow of illegal immigrants, suggesting that this is planned for the residual population of unaccompanied children that can't be placed with sponsoring individuals (or the foster system if I'm right that that's a backup between sponsoring individuals and remaining in direct ORR or HHS custody).

Offline DEPACincy

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Re: US Illegal Immigration
« Reply #116 on: June 13, 2018, 10:06:52 AM »
We'll see if this is true. If it is, blocking highways to protest police shootings will be considered meek and polite....

@WesleyLowery
The President of the United States reportedly considering construction of a prison camp to hold up to 5,000 children
http://www.mcclatchydc.com/news/politics-government/white-house/article213026379.html

I really hope this isn’t true.  Are other sources reporting it?

Haven't seen any but I tend to trust Wesley Lowery. He knows his stuff.

Online KJP

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Re: US Illegal Immigration
« Reply #117 on: June 13, 2018, 10:55:05 AM »
California woman ‘in shock’ after ICE agents detain father, a legal resident, outside home
https://www.mercurynews.com/2018/06/13/california-woman-in-shock-after-ice-agents-detain-father-a-legal-resident-outside-home/
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Online jonoh81

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Re: US Illegal Immigration
« Reply #118 on: June 13, 2018, 12:23:13 PM »
I haven't seen this yet, and I haven't looked into it beyond reading the link (so apparently I do occasionally read links KJP posts), but this seems facially plausible.  Remember, "unaccompanied" (the "U" in UAC) is a term of art in immigration law, and I understand it to mean children who never had their parents with them either at the US border or within it.  So these children were not separated from their parents by US authorities; they were already separated outside our borders before they arrived.

As I understand from earlier posts in this thread, the regular immigration thread, and elsewhere, the first choice for such children is to place them with a "sponsoring individual," usually a relative.  But sponsoring individuals may become harder to find now that it's known that Trump has dissolved the wall between ORR and ICE, meaning that if an illegal immigrant tries to become a sponsoring individual, they are at risk of being turned over to ICE.  Therefore, the question becomes what to do with unaccompanied children when no sponsoring individual can be found.  I think the second choice is the foster care system (I'm fuzzy on this).  But even that system may be overloaded in places.  I'm just making guesses on what seems intuitive here because of the numbers.  The proposed temporary shelter (camp) is suggested as having a capacity between 1500 and 5000.  That is multiple orders of magnitude smaller than the flow of illegal immigrants, suggesting that this is planned for the residual population of unaccompanied children that can't be placed with sponsoring individuals (or the foster system if I'm right that that's a backup between sponsoring individuals and remaining in direct ORR or HHS custody).

So... we supposedly can't do better, so a kid prison is totally fine?

Online freefourur

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Re: US Illegal Immigration
« Reply #119 on: June 13, 2018, 12:24:27 PM »
It's time to abolish ICE.