Author Topic: Cincinnati Streetcar / Cincinnati Bell Connector News  (Read 331104 times)

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Offline slumcat

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Re: Cincinnati Streetcar / Cincinnati Bell Connector News
« Reply #30540 on: September 03, 2018, 09:51:46 PM »
As far as the notion of shutting down a federal project and “forgiving” the monetary buyback, there is a local precedent very similar suggesting this is a non-starter. In the late 1980’s the CEO of Greater Dayton RTA tried to shut down the newly-modernized electric trolleybus system in the city and arranged a meeting in DC to discuss a waiver of the multi million dollar payback for the substations and new power distribution system downtown. What I heard from a reliable source is that pretty much the whole SW Ohio Congressional delegation was thumbs down on any kind of waiver of repayment to the feds.
« Last Edit: September 03, 2018, 09:54:11 PM by slumcat »

Offline jmecklenborg

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Re: Cincinnati Streetcar / Cincinnati Bell Connector News
« Reply #30541 on: September 03, 2018, 10:00:24 PM »
Plus, somebody is obviously feeding him negative transit stories to retweet.  It's not as if he's on the various urbanist forums that discuss these issues, at length, every day, year after year. 


Offline jmecklenborg

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Re: Cincinnati Streetcar / Cincinnati Bell Connector News
« Reply #30542 on: September 03, 2018, 10:42:07 PM »
Also, this one goes on the wall of shame.  A dime holding up a dollar, or something. 


Offline SleepyLeroy

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Re: Cincinnati Streetcar / Cincinnati Bell Connector News
« Reply #30543 on: September 03, 2018, 10:47:32 PM »
Plus, somebody is obviously feeding him negative transit stories to retweet.  It's not as if he's on the various urbanist forums that discuss these issues, at length, every day, year after year. 



I stay off twitter but someone should tell him to Google the avg Seattle gas price at the moment and explain why things in different places cost different amounts.

Offline slumcat

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Re: Cincinnati Streetcar / Cincinnati Bell Connector News
« Reply #30544 on: September 03, 2018, 11:12:58 PM »
@jmeck. Thanks for posting the pic of Brinks truck on the tracks. Ways to “do something” about the streetcar with pros and cons listed: 1) Cancel project, stop operating. (Very Expensive) 2) Void Bell add contract (expensive as would likely involve litigation) 3) Increase ridership by extending to Uptown and/or south across river (long term investment, little short term gain) 4) Make fare free (minimally expensive see Kansas City.)  5) Enforce parking/ stopping restrictions and increase the fines.  (A generator of additional revenues that could be used for future transportation projects maybe and/ or more likely could be used to put more cops and first responders on the street!)  Who doesn’t get it and what doesn’t the City understand about this!  The streetcar is a potential cash cow for the city if they just start enforcing laws already on the books and make the penalty match the magnitude of the infraction!
« Last Edit: September 03, 2018, 11:23:50 PM by slumcat »

Offline ColDayMan

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Re: Cincinnati Streetcar / Cincinnati Bell Connector News
« Reply #30545 on: September 05, 2018, 09:45:12 AM »
Behind the attempt to divorce SORTA from the Cincinnati streetcar



Officials with both the city of Cincinnati and the Southwest Ohio Regional Transit Authority are looking to jettison SORTA’s management of the Cincinnati Bell Connector streetcar with both political concerns and intergovernmental squabbling driving the decision, according to sources with direct knowledge of the situation.

More below:
https://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/news/2018/09/04/heres-whats-behind-the-attempt-to-divorce-sorta.html
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Offline GCrites80s

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Re: Cincinnati Streetcar / Cincinnati Bell Connector News
« Reply #30546 on: September 05, 2018, 11:55:46 AM »
Cincinnati Bell needs to call Cranley out specifically. Cranley hasn't done his job, which is serving the people of Cincinnati. Instead he has used the mayorship to campaign within the fire-breathing Cincinnati suburbs and semi-rural SW Ohio for statewide office.

Offline jmecklenborg

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Re: Cincinnati Streetcar / Cincinnati Bell Connector News
« Reply #30547 on: September 05, 2018, 01:01:24 PM »
I'd pay to see the DOUGSCORE review the new streetcar systems:
http://dougscore.net/scoreboard

I think we'd see KC at #1 and Cincinnati around #5 or lower.  Then have Cranley/Williams answer as to why clearly fixable problems aren't being fixed. 


Offline thomasbw

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Re: Cincinnati Streetcar / Cincinnati Bell Connector News
« Reply #30548 on: September 05, 2018, 05:34:28 PM »
August Streetcar Ridership for Cincinnati-  47,358  (down 14% from previous year)
August Streetcar Ridership for Kansas City- 221,898 (up 11% from previous year)

Offline GCrites80s

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Re: Cincinnati Streetcar / Cincinnati Bell Connector News
« Reply #30549 on: September 05, 2018, 06:15:03 PM »
I'd pay to see the DOUGSCORE review the new streetcar systems:
http://dougscore.net/scoreboard

I think we'd see KC at #1 and Cincinnati around #5 or lower.  Then have Cranley/Williams answer as to why clearly fixable problems aren't being fixed. 




"Here's Why..." followed by him flipping something opened and closed over and over

Offline edale

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Re: Cincinnati Streetcar / Cincinnati Bell Connector News
« Reply #30550 on: September 05, 2018, 06:23:24 PM »
August Streetcar Ridership for Cincinnati-  47,358  (down 14% from previous year)
August Streetcar Ridership for Kansas City- 221,898 (up 11% from previous year)

Absolutely crazy. We need to bring a delegation from Kansas City to town to observe our system and make recommendations for improvement. I have a hard time believing that our poor ridership (and their incredible ridership) is all due to track blockages and lights that aren't timed correctly. I know their system is free, so that also must make a difference. But with such a vast chasm between the performance of the two systems, I think there must be something more to the story.

Offline jmecklenborg

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Re: Cincinnati Streetcar / Cincinnati Bell Connector News
« Reply #30551 on: September 05, 2018, 06:26:54 PM »
"Here's Why..." followed by him flipping something opened and closed over and over

One of those other exotic car youtubers just had his 1995 Ferrari spontaneously combust:
 



Now imagine if this was the streetcar.  It illustrates how everyone is conditioned to get screwed over by their personal automobiles, even preposterously expensive ones.  In fact, everyone is amused by wrecked cars, even publicly financed cars like police chases.  The Blues Brothers shopping mall scene, etc. 

People are just standing around looking at this Ferrari on fire and chuckling about it even though OUR TAX MONEY is being spent to put out the fire.  But we just had The Enquirer calling for the permanent shut-down of the streetcar because of...mold. 

Offline jjakucyk

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Re: Cincinnati Streetcar / Cincinnati Bell Connector News
« Reply #30552 on: September 05, 2018, 11:17:58 PM »
Of course the Enquirer's headline:  "Cincinnati weather: Around 15K without power, streetcar suspended".  No mention of all the traffic signals that were out, flooded streets, closed intersections in the article (though somewhat showed in their lazy video clearly shot just from their office window). Just had to get in a jab at the streetcar. 

Offline ColDayMan

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Re: Cincinnati Streetcar / Cincinnati Bell Connector News
« Reply #30553 on: September 11, 2018, 04:00:09 PM »
Streetcar divorce could take up to a year



“Like it or not, perception in the region is that ... money that should go to the bus is going to the streetcar.”

More below:
https://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/news/2018/09/11/streetcar-divorce-could-take-up-to-a-year.html
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Offline taestell

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Re: Cincinnati Streetcar / Cincinnati Bell Connector News
« Reply #30554 on: September 11, 2018, 04:04:19 PM »
Maybe it would be easier for SORTA to simply educate the public that 100% of the streetcar's costs are paid by the City and not by SORTA, and not a single penny from any SORTA tax could be used for anything streetcar related.

Offline jmecklenborg

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Re: Cincinnati Streetcar / Cincinnati Bell Connector News
« Reply #30555 on: September 11, 2018, 04:33:02 PM »
John Schneider and Kevin Flynn will appear on WVXU's Cincinnati Edition at 1pm on Wednesday, Sept 12th to discuss the streetcar's second anniversary. 

Offline Robuu

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Re: Cincinnati Streetcar / Cincinnati Bell Connector News
« Reply #30556 on: September 11, 2018, 04:52:50 PM »
Maybe it would be easier for SORTA to simply educate the public that 100% of the streetcar's costs are paid by the City and not by SORTA, and not a single penny from any SORTA tax could be used for anything streetcar related.

It's my understanding that monthly passholders (probably day-passholders, also) pay into a pool, from which an amount proportionate to the usage of the pass goes to either the bus system or the streetcar. Now, that's the "fairest" way to do this, but it's slightly nuanced and requires more words to get across than saying "money from monthly pass bus users goes to the streetcar" or "only streetcar riders pay for the streetcar."

Strictly speaking, neither passholders using the streetcar nor passholders not using the streetcar pay for bus operations or streetcar operations. (They pay into this pool, which then is distributed.) Thus the room for COAST-types to play semantic games.

Offline taestell

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Re: Cincinnati Streetcar / Cincinnati Bell Connector News
« Reply #30557 on: September 11, 2018, 05:23:46 PM »
What you just mentioned is the grey area that COAST and Friends use as "proof" that "bus money is going to the streetcar!"

My understanding is that it works like this: When police officers are on the streetcar checking people's fares, they are supposed to mark down what type of fare people are using. A vast majority of streetcar riders are likely paying using 2-hour or all-day streetcar passes, but some small percentage of riders are using Metro day or monthly passes. (I have done this in the past — purchased a monthly Metro pass and used it to ride the streetcar since there is no streetcar monthly pass.) From those numbers, Metro calculates how much money is owed to the streetcar from Metro's day/monthly pass revenue. I don't know the numbers, but I've gotta suspect that it's a very, very, very small percentage of the monthly pass revenue that goes towards the streetcar.

This illustrates one of the big problems with the "streetcar divorce". Will people with a Metro day/monthly pass still be able to ride the streetcar for free, even if Metro doesn't run the streetcar? If so, surely the city wouldn't just let them ride for free. They would expect Metro to pay them for those rides, in which case Metro would be writing a check to the city for those riders. So the whole premise behind the divorce is flawed.

Offline JYP

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Re: Cincinnati Streetcar / Cincinnati Bell Connector News
« Reply #30558 on: September 11, 2018, 05:38:22 PM »
Metro and TANK also revenue share on stored value cards but I am not seeing anyone cry foul that metro $$ is going to NKY.
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Offline taestell

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Re: Cincinnati Streetcar / Cincinnati Bell Connector News
« Reply #30559 on: September 11, 2018, 05:56:21 PM »
There are dozens of examples across America of transit card systems that work across multiple transit agencies. Greater Seattle's ORCA Card currently can be used on 9 different transit and ferry systems. You can buy a one-day ORCA pass for $8 that works on Community Transit, Everett Transit, King County Metro Transit, King County Water Taxi, Kitsap Transit, Pierce Transit, Seattle Streetcar, and Sound Transit (which runs light rail, commuter rail, and buses), and I assume the revenue is distributed to all of those agencies based on some agreed-upon method.

Offline thomasbw

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Re: Cincinnati Streetcar / Cincinnati Bell Connector News
« Reply #30560 on: September 11, 2018, 08:15:00 PM »
Metro and TANK also revenue share on stored value cards but I am not seeing anyone cry foul that metro $$ is going to NKY.

Exactly. Same exact concept. If you transfer from Metro to Tank or vice versa, wherever you pay the transfer gets the funds.

Offline Robuu

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Re: Cincinnati Streetcar / Cincinnati Bell Connector News
« Reply #30561 on: September 12, 2018, 09:53:21 AM »
What you just mentioned is the grey area that COAST and Friends use as "proof" that "bus money is going to the streetcar!"

Metro and TANK also revenue share on stored value cards but I am not seeing anyone cry foul that metro $$ is going to NKY.

The question is, how can this rhetoric, thoroughly dishonest as it is, be combated when the explanation requires so many words but the factual distortion requires so few?

This illustrates one of the big problems with the "streetcar divorce". Will people with a Metro day/monthly pass still be able to ride the streetcar for free, even if Metro doesn't run the streetcar? If so, surely the city wouldn't just let them ride for free. They would expect Metro to pay them for those rides, in which case Metro would be writing a check to the city for those riders. So the whole premise behind the divorce is flawed.

I guess if it's a really small amount of farebox recovery, monthly passholders could just be given free rides and it wouldn't make a big difference, and the issue could be revisited at a later date. At which point the rhetorical upper-hand would be on the side of those complaining about passholders riding for free.

There are dozens of examples across America of transit card systems that work across multiple transit agencies. Greater Seattle's ORCA Card currently can be used on 9 different transit and ferry systems. You can buy a one-day ORCA pass for $8 that works on Community Transit, Everett Transit, King County Metro Transit, King County Water Taxi, Kitsap Transit, Pierce Transit, Seattle Streetcar, and Sound Transit (which runs light rail, commuter rail, and buses), and I assume the revenue is distributed to all of those agencies based on some agreed-upon method.

I was just in Seattle last week, and I could not for the life of me figure out how to get a day pass for anything but the streetcars. Their transit system is the most difficult to figure out that I've ever experienced, in terms of both fares and navigation (so hard to find useful maps). Vancouver's was a breeze, by comparison.

Offline taestell

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Re: Cincinnati Streetcar / Cincinnati Bell Connector News
« Reply #30562 on: September 12, 2018, 12:56:07 PM »
The question is, how can this rhetoric, thoroughly dishonest as it is, be combated when the explanation requires so many words but the factual distortion requires so few?

This illustrates one of the big problems with the "streetcar divorce". Will people with a Metro day/monthly pass still be able to ride the streetcar for free, even if Metro doesn't run the streetcar? If so, surely the city wouldn't just let them ride for free. They would expect Metro to pay them for those rides, in which case Metro would be writing a check to the city for those riders. So the whole premise behind the divorce is flawed.

I mean, that's the key question of the time period we're living in. Every 10 word lie that is spread takes 10,000 words of truth to debunk it. So how do you get people to listen to the truth when it's easier to just believe the lie?

Offline thomasbw

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Re: Cincinnati Streetcar / Cincinnati Bell Connector News
« Reply #30563 on: September 13, 2018, 05:47:22 PM »
The Cincinnati Streetcar had 3,124 riders on Sunday September 2nd, the night of the fireworks over Labor Day weekend where we extended the hours until 1 am.

The last time the Kansas City streetcar had a single day where they had fewer than 3,124 riders was April 3rd.

Offline Ucgrad2015

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Re: Cincinnati Streetcar / Cincinnati Bell Connector News
« Reply #30564 on: September 13, 2018, 05:54:39 PM »
Was that people who actually paid for it?  I was on it and it was packed most of the evening.

Offline thomasbw

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Re: Cincinnati Streetcar / Cincinnati Bell Connector News
« Reply #30565 on: September 13, 2018, 07:45:06 PM »
Was that people who actually paid for it?  I was on it and it was packed most of the evening.

No, that's riders, not fares.

Offline jmecklenborg

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Re: Cincinnati Streetcar / Cincinnati Bell Connector News
« Reply #30566 on: September 13, 2018, 08:06:39 PM »
Cincinnati and KC have the exact same model streetcar, and so presumably, the exact same automated passenger counters in the doorways. 

A piece of data we don't have for KC is how many people are riding 3-4-5 times per day.  It must be a pretty significant percentage because it's hard to believe that they're getting 10,000 unique riders on days when their ridership pushes or tops 15,000. 

Also, it should be noted that KC is getting many times our ridership despite having a smaller fleet of streetcars (4 instead of 5) and a far inferior streetcar barn situation which makes it much more complicated to introduce an extra streetcar or take one out of service. 

KC is regularly running all 4 of their streetcars but Cincinnati has not run all 5 of ours since opening weekend, and has only run 4 on 1-2 occasions since. 

Offline thomasbw

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Re: Cincinnati Streetcar / Cincinnati Bell Connector News
« Reply #30567 on: September 14, 2018, 09:38:33 AM »
Cincinnati and KC have the exact same model streetcar, and so presumably, the exact same automated passenger counters in the doorways. 

A piece of data we don't have for KC is how many people are riding 3-4-5 times per day.  It must be a pretty significant percentage because it's hard to believe that they're getting 10,000 unique riders on days when their ridership pushes or tops 15,000. 

Also, it should be noted that KC is getting many times our ridership despite having a smaller fleet of streetcars (4 instead of 5) and a far inferior streetcar barn situation which makes it much more complicated to introduce an extra streetcar or take one out of service. 

KC is regularly running all 4 of their streetcars but Cincinnati has not run all 5 of ours since opening weekend, and has only run 4 on 1-2 occasions since. 


That piece of information would be un-knowable if someone buys a day pass for Cincinnati as well or for the Portland MAX/Streetcar system. You'd basically need a MARTA or DC Metro  style scan in, scan out system to know how many times unique individuals are riding.

Semi-related, I wonder how many times individual cars are counted in a "vehicles per day" count. If you commute from Loveland to the Airport, your car is being counted as a vehicle on 275, 71, FWW, BSB, 71/75, 275 (again).

Offline ColDayMan

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Re: Cincinnati Streetcar / Cincinnati Bell Connector News
« Reply #30568 on: September 14, 2018, 10:00:43 AM »
Can Cincinnati fix the streetcar?

The streetcar was built for two reasons: To spur economic development and repopulation in downtown and Over-the-Rhine and to move people around Cincinnati’s basin neighborhoods. Since opening Sept. 9, 2016, it’s delivered on only one of those promises.

More below:
https://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/news/2018/09/14/can-cincinnati-fix-the-streetcar.html
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Offline jmecklenborg

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Re: Cincinnati Streetcar / Cincinnati Bell Connector News
« Reply #30569 on: September 18, 2018, 11:20:52 PM »
KC passes 5 million passengers; two more CAF streetcars due to arrive in mid-2019:
https://www.kshb.com/news/local-news/kc-streetcar-to-add-2-new-cars-for-downtown