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Author Topic: Cleveland: Global Center for Health Innovation & Convention Center  (Read 25214 times)

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Offline nsc

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Re: Cleveland: Convention Center / Medical Mart
« Reply #90 on: May 20, 2005, 08:27:16 AM »
I do not understand that Forest City proposal.  What streets are those? 

Offline nsc

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Re: Cleveland: Convention Center / Medical Mart
« Reply #91 on: May 20, 2005, 08:28:31 AM »
Oh, now I see it.  Ontario and Huron.  The existing parking garage gave it away.

Offline nsc

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Re: Cleveland: Convention Center / Medical Mart
« Reply #92 on: May 20, 2005, 08:31:42 AM »
I like the Niketown in that picture.  That would be cool.

Offline StrangeBrew

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Re: Cleveland: Convention Center / Medical Mart
« Reply #93 on: May 20, 2005, 08:42:01 AM »
Hey MayDay, correct if I'm wrong, but does that Forest City Picture show the NikeTown sitting over the unfinished portion of the Landmark Office Tower (left unfinished since the depression?) 

I hate to say it, 'cause i'm no fan of Forest City, but I'm starting to warm to the idea of a convention center there.  If the mall becomes abandoned...the redevelopment opportunitites around it could be awesome (imagine a cool neighborhood of Park Avenue type buildings overlooking Malls A and B rising where the current County Office Bldg. and 113 St. Clair sit today...) 

Offline MyTwoSense

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Re: Cleveland: Convention Center / Medical Mart
« Reply #94 on: May 20, 2005, 08:57:35 AM »
^Yes and no - the problem with promoting to target groups is that so (soooo) often, the efforts come off as contrived. You're also trying to reach a demographic that is as fickle as the day is long, and is usually a little too worldly to be persuaded by the usual CVB marketing efforts. For example, a travel brochure with a rainbow flag and a smiling gay couple with the Cleveland skyline in the distance would read as ultra-cheesey.  You also run the risk of promoting Cleveland to be something it isn't - sure, the nightlife is decent and yes, the community is pretty sizable but don't try to convince the average 'mo that Edgewater/Clifton is the next WeHo, Chelsea or Castro. 

The point is we're not doing ANYTHING!  :cry:  We should be have the best gay community in Ohio & america's NORTH COAST drawing gays people from all over.  I wouldn't want to compared to WeHo (personally, it's not all the cute); chelsea is a beast of it's own!

We don't have a promotable gay hood that potential visitors from another city would know about except by "word of mouth".  Philly recent "came out of the closet", so to speak, and is actively promoting the gay neighborhood in center city.  what are we doing??

the CVB should be working WITH the gay community to come up with "discovery seeker" ideas not try to market them since the CVB is run by old, white, conservatives.  Cleveland has two gay pride celebrations [(www.clevelandpride.org (june 18) & black unity pride (august 5-8)] coming up.  How much does anyone on this board no about them?  Probably nothing.  local residents probably don't know or wont know in advance.

how many asian, latin or ethnic play, performances, concerts, etc..  has playhouse square, Gund arena or CSU convocationi center brought to cleveland?  This is an area that the city and its venues should be marketing to as Asian Village establishs itself.  We have a sizable latin community that would embrace more than just baseball. 

This is a way to raise or international presence and bring events & productions that appeal to an underserved segment of the population.  Playhouse square (or one of the above mentioned venues) wins by bring a whole new segment of the population downtown, to playhouse square that might possibly buy tickets to our more popular series.  It is the perfect starting point for anyone (visiting or living) in Cleveland. If the events are worthwhile and enjoyable people will come back.  And by being a city with various ethnic residents, something small like this could be a reason to move to our city.

In today's economy no stone should go unturned our possibilities are limitless

Offline MayDay

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Re: Cleveland: Convention Center / Medical Mart
« Reply #95 on: May 20, 2005, 09:36:28 AM »
"Cleveland has two gay pride celebrations [(www.clevelandpride.org (june 18) & black unity pride (august 5-8)] coming up.  How much does anyone on this board no about them?  Probably nothing.  local residents probably don't know or wont know in advance."

Oh, believe me - I know all about them  :wink:

"the CVB should be working WITH the gay community to come up with "discovery seeker" ideas not try to market them since the CVB is run by old, white, conservatives."

But *who* should represent the community? The activists? The club owners? Heck, the community has plenty of old, white ... well maybe not conservatives but you get the idea. 

Offline MyTwoSense

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Re: Cleveland: Convention Center / Medical Mart
« Reply #96 on: May 20, 2005, 09:51:34 AM »
Oh, believe me - I know all about them :wink:

I'm not one to gossip...so you didn't hear this from me..... BUT, rumor has it you're the grand marshall!  lol   :-D :-D

"the CVB should be working WITH the gay community to come up with "discovery seeker" ideas not try to market them since the CVB is run by old, white, conservatives."

But *who* should represent the community? The activists? The club owners? Heck, the community has plenty of old, white ... well maybe not conservatives but you get the idea.

I think there should a combination of all the above.  We need a Gay pride week, etc.

...... but this is morphing into another forum "topic"  lol   :wink:

Offline Map Boy

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Re: Cleveland: Convention Center / Medical Mart
« Reply #97 on: May 20, 2005, 12:29:46 PM »
MTS, you captured my response better than I could have written it...so I'll hold further comment on that.  (What happened to the new thread?)

On the subject of the CONVENTION CENTER ( :-P) and StrangeBrew's comment, if there's such great development potential on the site, then why not build on it either way?  FC has been sitting on that site for decades and could take advantage of many of the things that they're using to lure the Convention Center committee (the river, the shopping, the transit, Gateway, etc) to build something that would actually fit and make sense there!  And yes, StrangeBrew, you could have your precious Nike Town...but who shops there anyways???

Offline MyTwoSense

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Re: Cleveland: Convention Center / Medical Mart
« Reply #98 on: May 20, 2005, 01:30:08 PM »
Hey MayDay, correct if I'm wrong, but does that Forest City Picture show the NikeTown sitting over the unfinished portion of the Landmark Office Tower (left unfinished since the depression?)

I hate to say it, 'cause i'm no fan of Forest City, but I'm starting to warm to the idea of a convention center there. If the mall becomes abandoned...the redevelopment opportunitites around it could be awesome (imagine a cool neighborhood of Park Avenue type buildings overlooking Malls A and B rising where the current County Office Bldg. and 113 St. Clair sit today...)

Why can't FC or another developer build "Park Avenue" or "lakeshore drive" type of apartment buildings around the current towercity location?    :?   They claim (and apparently so have shoppers that won't go there) that the mall doesn’t have "upscale" stores.  If they built one or two grand towers over the current parking facility, they could "bridge" E. 4 gateway and the WHD and create that "ubber-luxury" neighborhood that TC was originally planned to be.  Add a swanky hotel and renovate the renaisance and bingo!  We have a winner!!  :wink:


FC should partner with - or sell the mall - to a mall manager like simon malls who has a proven track record of developing great malls (Houston’s galleria, Atlanta’s lenox mall, dc's pentagon city to name a few)  or Premier Marketplaces (which manages the fashion show in Vegas, or watertower place in Chicago).  A mall strategic planner/developer/marketer could bring back stores that were there when the mall initially opened.  The added housing, would give the mall built in shoppers, and people who live there would have the expectation that the mall should be “respected” and the “hangout/unsafe” factor would be eliminated.  With expensive housing attached, there is noway that anyone would allow kids (of any color or homeless people) to just "hangout" at towercity.  No housing in downtown was part of the problem with TC originally.  Whdn the mall originaly opened, during the day and on weekends that mall was packed and tour buses were rolling in.  In addition, they maybe able to locate a tenant for the higbee building.   Today its just an “average” mall that you can find anywhere.  Not even the gay boys are shopping in TC!  TC is not a “fab” mall that you can find anything in!

FC has the potential to build ANYTHING and how I perceive this is they "do not" believe in Cleveland so they wont invest unless we play by there “substandard” rule and give us stores that are just “ok” not full fledged “flagship” stores!

Why did they need the convention center as a "carrot" in front of Cleveland to "upgrade" the mall?  Housing downtown is booming, sans District Park.  This is FCs opportunity to make lemonade from lemons.  They have the power to enhance the southern portion of TC......but will they????   :?  :?  :?

With all the planned new housing,  current housing in a 25 block radius of downtown and the FUTURE housing that should be finished in the next few years, why shouldn’t our young hip and cool residents have a fabulous mall with adjacent street level retail have a place to shop and rave about?  Beachwood, Crooker Park and Legacy village aren’t as “fabulous” as any of the malls I’ve mentioned above, FC has the opportunity to drastically upgrade shopping in this town and make TowerCity the “it” mall in Ohio!

This city has much potential to reclaim its seat as one of America’s favorite cities....  Can we do it is the question!
« Last Edit: May 20, 2005, 03:42:57 PM by MyTwoSense »

Online KJP

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Re: Cleveland: Convention Center / Medical Mart
« Reply #99 on: May 20, 2005, 03:23:13 PM »
^ Great point! Consider the small parcel of "land" at the corner of Huron and Ontario, where the brick face of the Guildhall Building looks out over Ontario. When the Terminal Group was built, that was supposed to be another office building. In the late 1980s, another office building was proposed to be built there (see below). Why can't this be market-rate housing instead? There's parking below, and enclosed walkways to Gateway, Tower City, Rapid transit etc etc. Add to this the school that CWRU proposes for the Higbee building. Of all the mixed uses that Tower City has, one thing it lacks is housing. What a great site for housing!



KJP
« Last Edit: May 20, 2005, 03:25:54 PM by KJP »
"Give me control of a nation's money supply, and I care not who writes the laws." -- Mayer Amschel Rothschild, founder of the European banking dynasty.

Offline MyTwoSense

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Re: Cleveland: Convention Center / Medical Mart
« Reply #100 on: May 20, 2005, 03:48:02 PM »
Correct me if I am wrong, but....I think the problem with the Hotel on that specific location was some sort of legal issue with Gateway's baseball stadium.  I think they gateway feared potential fans would book rooms and watch the games from their rooms and not come to gateway and the “then” developing area.  In addition, the hotel tower (30 stories??) would have "free advertising" of its brand since the 43k plus fans at the stadium would constantly see it and any TV broadcast would show it.

this is why I think Housing would work on that sight instead.

« Last Edit: May 20, 2005, 04:21:15 PM by MyTwoSense »

Online KJP

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Re: Cleveland: Convention Center / Medical Mart
« Reply #101 on: May 20, 2005, 03:55:06 PM »
Those are added reasons why a 30-story apartment or condo tower would be the "highest and best use" of that site. Imagine that tower picture I posted not as offices or a hotel, but market-rate residential.

Turn that thumbs down to thumbs up...we're in agreement here!

KJP
"Give me control of a nation's money supply, and I care not who writes the laws." -- Mayer Amschel Rothschild, founder of the European banking dynasty.

Offline MyTwoSense

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Re: Cleveland: Convention Center / Medical Mart
« Reply #102 on: May 20, 2005, 04:24:38 PM »
Those are added reasons why a 30-story apartment or condo tower would be the "highest and best use" of that site. Imagine that tower picture I posted not as offices or a hotel, but market-rate residential.

Turn that thumbs down to thumbs up...we're in agreement here!

KJP

You wish has been granted.

I wouldn't mind a hotel/market rate residential building. That seems to be very successful in other cities and here in Cleveland we need to think about those types of Mix use developments as Reserve square is the only property in Cleveland I can think of that is "hotel/residential"

so does anyone know why this was never built?
« Last Edit: May 20, 2005, 08:02:17 PM by MyTwoSense »

Offline zaceman

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Re: Cleveland: Convention Center / Medical Mart
« Reply #103 on: May 20, 2005, 07:49:24 PM »
i dont like that niketown proposal AT ALL!!  if anyone has ever seen the wall right there its this ugly red/brown, it needs a tower right there.  something 15+ OVEr a niketown.  why dont they do this?!  the mall and everything around there isnt in the highest potential use because no one LIVES there.   the convention center aint gonna fix it either.  although i think they would have to reroute the roads if they built a tower in that shape, it juts out rather far...

Online KJP

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Re: Cleveland: Convention Center / Medical Mart
« Reply #104 on: May 20, 2005, 08:42:54 PM »
the mall and everything around there isnt in the highest potential use because no one LIVES there. the convention center aint gonna fix it either. although i think they would have to reroute the roads if they built a tower in that shape, it juts out rather far...

Not necessarily. Check out this low-res satellite view of the site from Google....



I believe there is a turning lane from Ontario south to Huron west that shortcuts the hard right turn, but would that be terribly missed? There are so many options with that site, and housing would probably be the best use for it.

KJP
"Give me control of a nation's money supply, and I care not who writes the laws." -- Mayer Amschel Rothschild, founder of the European banking dynasty.

Offline zaceman

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Re: Cleveland: Convention Center / Medical Mart
« Reply #105 on: May 20, 2005, 09:14:20 PM »
oh wow, yea that does work, i guess i was just thinking of the "hole" as the space for the building. 

google maps, quite handy... lol

Offline Oldmanladyluck

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Re: Cleveland: Convention Center / Medical Mart
« Reply #106 on: May 20, 2005, 10:55:45 PM »
Now Forest City is trying to play dirty... check out this video.  It appears since Forest City was not chosen to build the new county building, they want to pull their convention center proposal also.  I guess they were relying on Hagen to get them the proposal, since it is mentioned that they paid him $15,000 in campeign contributions.  Ahhh, politics.

http://www.wkyc.com/video/player.aspx?aid=12839&sid=35220&bw=
« Last Edit: May 20, 2005, 11:00:00 PM by Oldmanladyluck »

Offline 3231

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Re: Cleveland: Convention Center / Medical Mart
« Reply #107 on: May 20, 2005, 11:23:44 PM »
Very interesting.  Looks like Forest City is beginning to position itself as public enemy no. 1. 

Offline oallostavros

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Re: Cleveland: Convention Center / Medical Mart
« Reply #108 on: May 20, 2005, 11:35:42 PM »
Good.  I hope they do drop their plan. 

Offline 3231

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Re: Cleveland: Convention Center / Medical Mart
« Reply #109 on: May 21, 2005, 07:47:48 AM »
What a pathetic response by FC.  So, you don't get the county proposal and then you act like a cry baby by saying if I can't have that, then you won't get this.  Well, if FC really wants to do the convention center, then they will keep their proposal on the table.  This really seems childish.  We know that FC is a corporation and is only interested in the bottom line. So, I doubt that they would turn down one project because they lost out on another. 

Offline zaceman

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Re: Cleveland: Convention Center / Medical Mart
« Reply #110 on: May 21, 2005, 07:51:50 AM »
wow a rehabbed AT Tower and a rehabbed convention center that connects to the new lakefront plan?  finally forest city does something good lately

Offline Map Boy

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Re: Cleveland: Convention Center / Medical Mart
« Reply #111 on: May 21, 2005, 03:21:40 PM »
Can you believe the final statement on the webcast that OMLL posted???  The City would consider using eminent domain to take the FC site if they choose it as the preferred site for the Convention Center???  Are you kidding me?  That would NEVER happen!  And who'd want to deal with that when the other option is seemingly just as good (probably better)???

Anyways, I hope this means that FC will start looking into new options for their site...though it seems more likely that they'll just sit on it, close Tower City and gripe for decades to come...

Offline Oldmanladyluck

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Re: Cleveland: Convention Center / Medical Mart
« Reply #112 on: May 21, 2005, 04:37:48 PM »
^^Actually, I wish someone in the city had enough guts to stand up to Forest City and use eminent domain to take the Scranton Penninsula away from them.  Remember people, Forest City said that they would NOT build housing immediately on the penninsula, claimiing that they would when "market was ready".  This was one of the main reasons that their site was chosen as one of the final sites to be considered.  I, personally, don't trust their judgement on when the housing market will be ready (though I do have a feeling that this site will be chosen, considering the amount of political clout they have). 

Offline punch

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Re: Cleveland: Convention Center / Medical Mart
« Reply #113 on: May 21, 2005, 10:38:56 PM »
^probably holding on the the property in case there is another gov't building to build...like a juvi court

Offline MyTwoSense

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Re: Cleveland: Convention Center / Medical Mart
« Reply #114 on: May 22, 2005, 05:10:32 AM »
as i stated before.  Classic case of "lets promises this....just so we can build another substandard project that connects to tower city".  In my mind FC sounds like “the boy who cried wolf”.  If they had ALREADY started a development on the penisula and on top of the parking garage and help convince Sherwin-Williams to build a first class headquarters on public square so that FC could develop the enter southern portion of the river that TC overlooks I might be interested in their proposal. 

FC is not playing fair and are only thinking of themselves.  As I suggested earlier FC should concentrate on "REdeveloping" the mall without a convention center!! They should & need to be concerned about improving the mall for the citizens of Cleveland not "potential" tourist!  If the mall is "fabulous" in the minds of Clevelanders, a place where NE Ohioians regard as "shoppers paradise" those that have previously visited the mall...conventioneers will come to the mall regardless of the location!

Redeveloping tower city so that its a foundation for future residential development is important not a convention center.  I’m not Ms. Cleo but I can see it now.  Picture it….Cleveland…..2016… TC is not living up to expectations even after the ATTACHED convention center is built and operating.  FC will play the blame game and say "building a convention center didn't live up to expectations" and they developement of the Scranton Peninsula will  never materialize, because the “market rate” housing never developed.  What a crock of sh*t!

Rebuild the mall so that metro Clevelanders have something to be proud of, brag about and PATRONIZE!

I say f*ck those  :ass:'s at FC and rebuild the current site, extended it over the rail tracks, upgrade the WFL station and the two hotels!  this could be used to develop more restaurants and amenities – FOR CLEVELANDERS - that bridges the WHD and NorthCoast Harbor/Galleria and the new east 12/13 project since people would come outside, eat drink, shop and EXPERIENCE more of downtown Cleveland. Tower City is self-contained.

Our current convention center is not an ugly obtrusive building (that you might find in other cities) because it beautifully hidden underground with a grassy mall (that is not being used to its potential) on top.

Hey FC - You wanna improve the mall???  Lets start with changing the music and the water show that hasn't changed since the mall opened and stop blowing smoke up our a$$es.
« Last Edit: May 22, 2005, 05:48:42 AM by MyTwoSense »

Offline mrnyc

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Re: Cleveland: Convention Center / Medical Mart
« Reply #115 on: May 22, 2005, 10:13:35 AM »
renovating the current site is such a better usage of urban space. it's the logical choice. face it above ground cc's are fugly, take up blocks, and kill street-life.

the only reason the open land around tc area is not more developed is because of the land owners sitting on it out of spite. i hope wolstein pulls off his east bank flats mega-project, then you'll finally see forest city singing a different tune!


Online KJP

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Re: Cleveland: Convention Center / Medical Mart
« Reply #116 on: May 23, 2005, 04:20:46 PM »
I have dumb question (or idea) about the Convention Center... Why couldn't the $80 million proposed for the construction of a new convention center hotel instead be used to link a rebuilt convention center to Tower City Center with an wide, airy and attractive underground pedestrian walkway beneath Public Square?

While I plead ignorance as to what such a walkway would cost to build, if there was any sizable amount of money left over, perhaps it could be used to expand the Renaissance Cleveland Hotel into the corner of Prospect and Superior? Why should we have to build a totally new hotel when vacancies at existing hotels are more than 40 percent? Wouldn't it make more sense to link them and get a catalytic project to make downtown an all-weather destination?

This way, it would be possible to provide all-weather pedestrian connections all the way from Gund Arena, Tower City, linking four hotels (Renaissance, Ritz, Marriott at Key, and Sheraton), via a restructured underground parking garage for Key, through the rebuilt Convention Center and north to the attractions at North Coast Harbor.

And if folks are worried about losing street-level pedestrian activity....what activity??? Such an all-weather pedestrian linkage might instead create a critical mass of activity downtown, much the way Toronto's PATH walkways have done. And, walkways cannot end up feeling like claustrophobic tunnels, but have shops along them, water fountains, skylights, public art, live musicians, etc etc.

Seems to me this would be a way keep Forest City Enterprises happy, should Tower City not be chosen as the site for the Convention Center. And, then push FCE toward building high-rise market-rate housing around Tower City, and turn the Higbee Co. store into a technology school for children.

Who knows, with all this, maybe lots more people will want to live downtown, visit downtown and even send their kids to school downtown....even in the middle of a bitter Cleveland winter!

KJP
"Give me control of a nation's money supply, and I care not who writes the laws." -- Mayer Amschel Rothschild, founder of the European banking dynasty.

Offline 3231

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Re: Cleveland: Convention Center / Medical Mart
« Reply #117 on: May 23, 2005, 04:49:03 PM »
KJP,

Great points.  I was wondering why we couldn't expand the Marriot by connecting an expansion through an overstreet walkway.   

Offline MyTwoSense

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Re: Cleveland: Convention Center / Medical Mart
« Reply #118 on: May 24, 2005, 06:48:48 PM »
sorry - but i have to play devils advocate -  I am all against any further building that would keep people of of city streets.  In other cities with drastic changes of weather, people walk and deal with the weather.  The only place that is different is montreal with the underground malls.

I want people outside.  if there are store...upon stores...exciting things to see at street level.  people will come outside regardless.

In Boston, NYC, Toronto & DC (climates like ours) do they complain...No. they deal with it.  In Vegas, Miami, NoLa and San Fran.  they dont complain about the heat...the deal with.

Why should we continue to build underground and pretend the climate doesn't exist?  Lets use our varying degrees and multi-seasonal weather as a plus.


Offline X

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Re: Cleveland: Convention Center / Medical Mart
« Reply #119 on: May 24, 2005, 07:07:34 PM »
How about having underground walkways without the retail?  They could always surface up into Tower City or the Arcade for that.  Use the corridors to strengthen what we have instead of forcing it to compete with a parallel system.