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Author Topic: Cleveland: Global Center for Health Innovation & Convention Center  (Read 25212 times)

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Offline RyanScav

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Re: Cleveland: Convention Center / Medical Mart
« Reply #1560 on: March 16, 2008, 01:00:08 PM »
we could have a poll so everyone could get an opinion in, but i think its going to be beneficial either way. I just believe that we could majorly improve one of our flagship locations. people attending these conventions will still be walking from their hotels. Nonetheless, i am far from an expert in this area.. I just hope our officials know what will be best for the city.

Offline X

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Re: Cleveland: Convention Center / Medical Mart
« Reply #1561 on: March 16, 2008, 01:04:48 PM »
Alot to address here.

Re: The current CC site being seperated from the Warehouse District from the JC- Has anyone here ever walked along Prospect or Huron at street level through Tower City?  It's alot of blank walls, wind, and a nasty crossing to get over Superior Ave, perhaps the most pedestrian unfriendly street in Downtown.  This path is even more pedestrian unfriendly than crossing through the Civic Center and across the JC.

Re: Tower City spinoff and the need to "prop" TC up- Will Tower City not benefit from having the Medical Mart/CC as a part of our Downtown landscape even if it goes to the current site?  I know they are important, but I don't like throwing so much of the spinoff to them alone.  Putting $400 million of public investment into someone's backyard like that is doing way too much to prop up one private property owner over the rest of Downtown.  It just isn't fair to others who have invested in our Downtown as well.  Put the CC in a neutral site and them compete for the spinoff business, like everyone else.

Re: the use of lakefront land- The "lakefront" extension of the CC would include stretching the Mall (ie the largest public space in our Downtown, which stretches right through it's heart) along it's top, bringing it closer to the Lakefront and helping to bridge the gap between Downtown and the lakefront.  And let's not get revisionist with these assertions that this is a bad use of lakefront land, because it isn't lakefront land, it is the air rights over the impediments to the lakefront that we would be building over and making into pedestrian friendly public space.  Stating otherwise is either misinformed or misleading.

Re: using the current CC/Public Auditorium for studio/soundstage space- can anyone point to any sort of study to prove that this is a feasible use that can support the upkeep of these structures for some time to come?

Re: site suitability of the TC site for Convention Center layout and use- the Planning Commission already studied the sites and found the TC site to be seriously deficient and inferior to the current CC site in terms of layout of the CC's space and access.  I've posted the results of that study here multiple times, apparently nobody reads it. 

Which brings me to: F-ck it.  This is going to FCE no matter what.  The rest is dog and pony show.  I'm wasting my time.

Offline clvlndr

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Re: Cleveland: Convention Center / Medical Mart
« Reply #1562 on: March 16, 2008, 02:20:55 PM »
Well you and I are going to have to "agree" to "disgree" on the subject of location for the new CC.

Hey, but it's fun to debate... On this one, in the long run, downtown wins either way.

Offline MyTwoSense

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Re: Cleveland: Convention Center / Medical Mart
« Reply #1563 on: March 16, 2008, 02:30:26 PM »
..... in the long run, downtown wins either way.
I agree with that!

Offline mrnyc

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Re: Cleveland: Convention Center / Medical Mart
« Reply #1564 on: March 16, 2008, 03:44:19 PM »
ideally the new cc should be the renovated cc plan, no question. it is such a creative and ingenious update of an already ingenious site, it seriously kind of takes your breadth away. it will be highly talked about and admired. this unlike some awkward cc built into a mall, which is how the tc site would be seen.

renovation has so many benefits. most of all it keeps an otherwise huge and difficult downtown structure buried out of sight and mind where it belongs, but also it will spur a new hotel and other businesses around the mall area, will spread the convention-related business around town better, will further connect the city to the lakefront and will even improve wfl transit.

Offline FrqntFlyr

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Re: Cleveland: Convention Center / Medical Mart
« Reply #1565 on: March 16, 2008, 04:24:05 PM »
And let's not get revisionist with these assertions that this is a bad use of lakefront land, because it isn't lakefront land, it is the air rights over the impediments to the lakefront that we would be building over and making into pedestrian friendly public space.  Stating otherwise is either misinformed or misleading.

Great point.

Re: using the current CC/Public Auditorium for studio/soundstage space- can anyone point to any sort of study to prove that this is a feasible use that can support the upkeep of these structures for some time to come?

Well said.  It's the same thought that I have every time I hear someone say that the Mall site can be re-used as a soundstage-type space.

Offline 3231

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Re: Cleveland: Convention Center / Medical Mart
« Reply #1566 on: March 16, 2008, 10:02:46 PM »
Re: site suitability of the TC site for Convention Center layout and use- the Planning Commission already studied the sites and found the TC site to be seriously deficient and inferior to the current CC site in terms of layout of the CC's space and access.  I've posted the results of that study here multiple times, apparently nobody reads it. 


I lean towards the TC site, so I'm curious about this study.

Offline X

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Offline StapHanger

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Re: Cleveland: Convention Center / Medical Mart
« Reply #1568 on: March 17, 2008, 09:58:00 AM »
^Thanks for posting that- a very useful review.  I think I'm fully on board with the current site-especially if it involves building something (the MM and a hotel?) on the county land and crappy privately owned stuff on the west side of Mall B.  Building this thing at Tower City just looks like a total design clusterf*ck that will loom large (literally) over too much of downtown and the Flats

I don't know much about the operations of the current convention center, but I was sort of surprised how hard it was to find specs and plans about it on the web.  And I found very, very little about the Public Hall facilities (and on a City site, the Public Auditorium is mislabeled as Music Hall-cute).  This site has some nice photos of Music Hall and the Little Theater, neither of which I've ever been inside of, but they look pretty awesome and I'd think they could add a nice classy touch to some conventions if the rest of the Center was modernized: http://realneo.us/blog/susan-miller/name-this-theater-in-cleveland

Offline McCleveland

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Re: Cleveland: Convention Center / Medical Mart
« Reply #1569 on: March 17, 2008, 10:48:10 AM »
In an ideal world I'd love to see the original site revamped for the CC and the Medical Mart still be placed in the Higbee's or May Company Building... It's like 4 blocks.  It would help breathe life into Tower City... not leave the current site barren, and add some life to an area that is extremely stagnet.  Another thought to consider is that when the initial proposal for the existing site was released, it called for the razing of the county building for a new hotel and/or a medical mart to go in it's place... of course that was when the county was planning on leaving for the Breuer / Rotunda site.  Now they'd need a new home for this site to even be contemplated.  In my UtopiaCleveland, Breuer Tower gets saved / redone as condos/hotels... Medical Mart goes in the Higbee Building... and the County locates with Stark which should give him enough to get Pesht going... Pesht being a partial link between the mart and the CC.  But I've stated many times before... I'm pretty sure this decision is well already made.  Get ready for the TC site, and let's at least hope that the attached convention center can help recreate Tower City as a legitimate shopping destination, and that they can come up with a good plan on how not to have the existing site be a wasteland.
« Last Edit: March 17, 2008, 11:28:31 AM by McCleveland »

Offline willyboy

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Re: Cleveland: Convention Center / Medical Mart
« Reply #1570 on: March 17, 2008, 10:54:40 AM »
Get ready for the TC site

and the key to the final location decision, in spite of having the input of the location committee and consultant is that the commissioners will make the final decision (yeah, I'm sure they will take into consideration the recommendation :roll:).

Offline Vulpster03

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Re: Cleveland: Convention Center / Medical Mart
« Reply #1571 on: March 17, 2008, 01:58:55 PM »
I think when it comes to Tower City, downtown and Convention Center there are two different thought processes

1. Aim to build a stronger downtown by using the existing/lakefront site, and we will see a better Tower City.
2. Aim to build a stronger Tower City by using the riverfront site, and we will see a better downtown.

Offline RyanScav

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Re: Cleveland: Convention Center / Medical Mart
« Reply #1572 on: March 17, 2008, 04:34:45 PM »
I think when it comes to Tower City, downtown and Convention Center there are two different thought processes

1. Aim to build a stronger downtown by using the existing/lakefront site, and we will see a better Tower City.
2. Aim to build a stronger Tower City by using the riverfront site, and we will see a better downtown.


if i may.. boom shacka lacka..  you hit the nail on the head.

lets hope our leaders take the right advice.

Offline Vulpster03

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Re: Cleveland: Convention Center / Medical Mart
« Reply #1573 on: March 17, 2008, 05:26:05 PM »
^ Well thank you, but I think we still disagree. I am strongly in favor of the Mall site

Offline Vulpster03

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Re: Cleveland: Convention Center / Medical Mart
« Reply #1574 on: March 17, 2008, 09:19:39 PM »
I can understand both camps, but I fall into the first camp. Aim to build a stronger downtown by utilizing the existing center on the Mall site. If downtown is strong, we will see a better and more vibrant Tower City Center.

I consider Tower City a great asset, a regional hub of transportation and a signature gateway to downtown. However, I do not consider Tower City a "civic" space. Tower City Center with its RTA hub is a gateway between downtown and Greater Cleveland commuters. It should reach out to the community to which it is linked by transit lines. Forest City Enterprises should focus on running Tower City Center as the city's signature commercial and retail complex, and perhaps consider becoming a key player in transit-oriented residential development for Cuyahoga Cuyahoga County along those transit lines, which the county has already provided.

The Mall site has greater long term appeal and possiblity for downtown for several reasons. It is the only place to do it right.
1. This gurantees the county will not be left with an obsolete monolith in the middle of downtown. Preserves and bolsters one of the leading "civic" spaces in the country.
2. Plenty of room for adequate space or potential expansion.
3. The abundance of intermodal transportation linkage (car, rapid, inter-city rail, ferry, air) available at E.9th Pier
4. Allows for greatest reach by downtown pedestrians by placing the Convention Center in the middle of Public Square, Northcoast Harbor, Warehouse District and Erieview District.
5. Restores faith in Cuyahoga citizens by showing leadership is capable of following through on the Group Plan and Lakefront Plan.

Many cities have a regional transportation hub and a seperate inter-city transportation hub. I suppose that is what I am pushing for with Tower City (Public Square) and Northcoast Harbor (the Mall).

Needless to say, I'll be disappointed if it goes to Tower City.
« Last Edit: March 17, 2008, 09:23:32 PM by Vulpster03 »

Offline RyanScav

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Re: Cleveland: Convention Center / Medical Mart
« Reply #1575 on: March 17, 2008, 10:35:43 PM »
Reading that post actually changes my mind. One thing to consider is that we COULD possibly lose a scranton peninsula development.. though there is no way we could guarantee that. Regardless, the thought of FCE benefitting from this so much after doing so little with their own space makes me ill.. and that thought makes me want to go with the mall site. And, if i may be honest, the mall sites design is SO MUCH MORE promising. I can really see potential in the site, and really see a lot of potential in the TC site to get ourselves stuck with a giant piece of junk on our doorstop.

keep our ears open!
« Last Edit: March 17, 2008, 10:36:31 PM by RyanScav »

Offline audidave

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Re: Cleveland: Convention Center / Medical Mart
« Reply #1576 on: March 17, 2008, 11:25:43 PM »
The best argument to make to County Commissioners is to "Finish the Group Plan!" My gut feeling is PLJ is for the Mall site just because he seems to be the most logical thinker.  No clue how the other two feel.  It sounds like Hagan might not be sure which way to go hence the outside consultant.  That wouldn't seem to be Dimora's style.  I like that the Mall adds another route to the Lake from downtown Cleveland hence "opening up lakefront access".  I also like that it forces the county to make serious decisions about some of their office space downtown to relocate them.  But this also makes way for adding 1 or 2 new hotels in the vicinity and multiple new restaurants.   To me this spreads downtown out nicely.  By sticking everything at Tower City you have everything at Tower City. 

I think this makes Cleveland a much more fun city to visit.  To be able to hop off the plane in 5 years to take a train to Tower City and then a short ride on the Waterfront line to the new convention center and hotel complex.  A convention goer would be able to do a flyby of Wolsteins Flats with glimpses of Starks developments.  That should be a great view from the top of the Mall.

Offline clvlndr

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Re: Cleveland: Convention Center / Medical Mart
« Reply #1577 on: March 18, 2008, 01:30:16 AM »
^I see no great need to "finish the Group".  Besides, I don't see the Mall, as unfinished  -- most of us only know it’s 'unfinished' is by history books (or websites) telling us Burnham planned a union station there... If 'finishing' is the driving reason for rebuilding on the Mall, I can’t see it seriously advancing downtown...

As to 'concentrating everything at Tower City, why shouldn't we build upon a site with such potential.   Building upon a location that already has some traffic flow creates excitement and energy -- visit the big Indianapolis’ CC + big (convention) hotels + Circle Centre Mall + Conseco Fieldhouse + tons of clubs, restaurants and street retail (including a large Borders bookstore) all in one place to see what I mean; it's why most visitors rate (exciting) downtown Indy higher than (schizophrenic) downtown Cleveland.  So why, audidave ‘spread (downtown) around’?...  The mindset here seems to be to ‘punish’ Tower City (see, the Ratners) and/or not reward them … Downtown's and Cleveland's problem is we have a number of nice neighborhoods that are unfinished and, yet, we ready to start the next one which, quite naturally, will be unfinished, too.  Consider the lost impact of new-ish the Hilton Garden Inn as it sits off to the side of downtown on Carnegie away from everything…  So we end up with islands of activity surrounded by dead zones.  I mean, how creepy is it, evenings -- even on weekends, to walk to/from Tower City to either the WHD or E. 4th along empty streets where, many of you gripe about being accosted by the homeless (who wisely set up shop along these routes)...

That said, for all you Mall fans, I wouldn't count out it out -- Tower City's hardly a done deal.  We've got county-owned land, on the western flank and a beautiful, largely empty deteriorating county owned Public Hall.  Bingo.  We know in this town big projects are often sacrificed at the alter of fiscal and political expediency.  For the commishes, therefore, the Mall is a win-win... With either site, esp the Mall, if a big hotel is not a part of the equation, preferably bigger than the 600-room one discussed in the CPC study, a new CC falls way short in my book... and I don't mean, in our usual approach, a hotel 'in the future' ... 'when the economic climate is right', or whatever...
« Last Edit: March 18, 2008, 01:38:28 AM by clvlndr »

Offline MyTwoSense

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Re: Cleveland: Convention Center / Medical Mart
« Reply #1578 on: March 18, 2008, 05:36:03 AM »
clvlndr, I can only speak for myself, but you really need to get of the "we want to punish" , "we hate the ratners/FCE" cry. 

My location choice is based on various factors, but having hate for FCE and their management of Tower City is not one of them so please stop saying that.  Thanks.

Offline 3231

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Re: Cleveland: Convention Center / Medical Mart
« Reply #1579 on: March 18, 2008, 07:22:08 AM »
The best argument to make to County Commissioners is to "Finish the Group Plan!"

I see this as the type of thinking that would doom a convention center. We need to think about what kind of center would attract the most business. Additionally, I think Burnham's plan is somewhat flawed. If we built out his plan, then we would block off the view of the lake, stadium and museums that you can now presently see from the Malls. In my opinion, that is the best thing that the Mall has going for it.
« Last Edit: March 18, 2008, 07:28:14 AM by 3231 »

Offline MyTwoSense

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Re: Cleveland: Convention Center / Medical Mart
« Reply #1580 on: March 18, 2008, 07:32:24 AM »

I see this as the type of thinking that would doom a convention center. We need to think about what kind of center would attract the most business. Additionally, I think Burnham's plan is somewhat flawed. If we built out his plan, then we would block off the view of the lake, stadium and museums that you can now presently see from the Malls. In my opinion, that is the best thing that the Mall has going for it.

I totally agree

Offline X

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Re: Cleveland: Convention Center / Medical Mart
« Reply #1581 on: March 18, 2008, 08:42:17 AM »
^Me too.^  Does anyone remember the plan that was posited by someone a while back to extend the Mall all the way to the lake, past Browns Stadium and the GLSC?  I saw a rendering once, then never again.  It was "just" a private citizen's idea, but I think the kind of idea people could rally around.  That's how I think we should "finish the Mall".

I don't think concentrating activity at TC will increase Downtown's vibrancy.  The problem is that it is a massive internally oriented development that is mostly quite hostile or at least dead at street level.  If anything the Mall site, because it forces some crosstown pedestrian traffic, holds better promise to enliven Downtown and "connect the dots".

Offline MyTwoSense

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Re: Cleveland: Convention Center / Medical Mart
« Reply #1582 on: March 18, 2008, 08:49:11 AM »
I don't think concentrating activity at TC will increase Downtown's vibrancy.  The problem is that it is a massive internally oriented development that is mostly quite hostile or at least dead at street level.   If anything the Mall site, because it forces some crosstown pedestrian traffic, holds better promise to enliven Downtown and "connect the dots".

:clap: Very well stated.  Can I get an AMEN?!   :clap:

Offline McCleveland

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Re: Cleveland: Convention Center / Medical Mart
« Reply #1583 on: March 18, 2008, 08:50:17 AM »
You are all very right... and it's still going to go behind tower city.

Offline willyboy

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Re: Cleveland: Convention Center / Medical Mart
« Reply #1584 on: March 18, 2008, 08:56:26 AM »
I don't remember, but do the commissioners, other than PLJ have a "special" relationship with the Ratners?
« Last Edit: March 18, 2008, 08:57:07 AM by willyboy »

Offline X

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Re: Cleveland: Convention Center / Medical Mart
« Reply #1585 on: March 18, 2008, 08:57:20 AM »
You are all very right... and it's still going to go behind tower city.

I'm afraid you're right.

Offline 3231

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Re: Cleveland: Convention Center / Medical Mart
« Reply #1586 on: March 18, 2008, 09:06:15 AM »
I don't remember, but do the commissioners, other than PLJ have a "special" relationship with the Ratners?

I don't think that the Ratners think very highly of Hagan and Dimora. Of course they want to stop losing the million dollars a month that they losing at TC and will push the commissioners to select TC for the CCMM. The Ratners are very smart people. They see right through Hagan and Dimora.

Offline McCleveland

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Re: Cleveland: Convention Center / Medical Mart
« Reply #1587 on: March 18, 2008, 09:08:02 AM »
I'd love... LOVE... to see the existing site as the convention center, with the actual Mart in the Higbees Building. It forces the interaction we all crave.  It could do so many great things for downtown.  But if you open your ears at all, you hear the same things... and it's that this thing is going to end up behind tower city.

Offline audidave

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Re: Cleveland: Convention Center / Medical Mart
« Reply #1588 on: March 18, 2008, 09:30:07 AM »
I was more referring to the architectural renderings that came up from the last study of 2 years ago as  finishing "the group plan"
http://planning.city.cleveland.oh.us/convention/detail.php?ID=ml
I think this works quite fine

Offline willyboy

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Re: Cleveland: Convention Center / Medical Mart
« Reply #1589 on: March 18, 2008, 09:36:41 AM »
As to 'concentrating everything at Tower City, why shouldn't we build upon a site with such potential...........  The mindset here seems to be to ‘punish’ Tower City (see, the Ratners) and/or not reward them [/b]


clvlndr, I think the argument has been that the Ratners have been rewarded over and over with.... much public money for they're projects, winning the Federal Courthouse and linking etc. etc........... (insert any number of Roldo articles here for the extreme version)  and they still haven't "done" a whole lot in return and are just looking to cash in wherever they can while continually crying and looking for more handouts/bailouts.  I don't know how much I agree with some of the arguments against them, except they're weakness as a mall manager.  But otherwise I think they are certainly an important part of Cleveland.   

As important as I think it is for Tower City to be successful, (since I think it is such a great space with many things going on in a single location), I don't want to see a decision made based on "to help out Tower City".  Since there has already been plenty of that.  If it has the best and most attributes fine, but to abandon what we have at the mall and the possibilities there to "help Tower City" just seems a bit much.  Of course Forest City will make all kinds of threats in the meantime (again) that Tower City will fail if ........          
« Last Edit: March 18, 2008, 10:09:12 AM by willyboy »