Author Topic: Cincinnati: Over-the-Rhine: Development and News (non-3CDC)  (Read 109222 times)

greenville2 and 8 Guests are viewing this topic.

Offline 1400 Sycamore

  • Huntington Tower 330'
  • **
  • Posts: 269
Re: Cincinnati: Over-the-Rhine: Development and News (non-3CDC)
« Reply #5460 on: July 11, 2018, 10:23:26 PM »
Its ironic.

20 years ago I moved my office to OTR because of the bad parking situation in the CBD. I was at Chiquita and because of the construction at the Riverfront, there was never a space. People would come to see me, drive around in the garage for 10 minutes and not find a space because there was never a space, then go a couple blocks pay $10, walk two blocks a couple sets of elevators and promise never to meet in my office again. So, I renovated a couple of row houses I owned for my office and people loved it. Come off 471, turn left, pull up in front and park. Any time of day.

Now, here we are again facing parking crises. If I didn't have control of several parking spaces I'd be back where I was 20 years ago. And, the businesses on Main St., consultants and whatnot have that problem today. Someone coming to your atelier? Where to park?
« Last Edit: July 11, 2018, 10:33:15 PM by 1400 Sycamore »

Offline BigDipper 80

  • Key Tower 947'
  • ****
  • Posts: 820
Re: Cincinnati: Over-the-Rhine: Development and News (non-3CDC)
« Reply #5461 on: July 11, 2018, 10:28:31 PM »
Again, this is really more of a "convenience crisis" than an actual issue with a lack of parking. There's plenty of parking, just not where people want it to be and not to the level of what people coming in from the suburbs are used to. It's unlikely that downtown can build its way out of it and would probably be better served trying to change the on-demand culture of parking, but that could take a generation or more and isn't palatable to a lot of people for various reasons.
“To an Ohio resident - wherever he lives - some other part of his state seems unreal.”

Offline taestell

  • Global Moderator
  • Jeddah Tower 3,281'
  • *****
  • Posts: 7478
Re: Cincinnati: Over-the-Rhine: Development and News (non-3CDC)
« Reply #5462 on: July 11, 2018, 10:42:35 PM »
The proposed residential street parking is dumb, because all the side streets are already full of residents looking for places to park, and all this will do is make it harder for visitors to park and make residents buy permits.  There will be a lot more people trying to buy the permits than there will be spaces.

And because Cranley insists that OTR pay for everything themselves the program has to be financially self sufficient, unlike every other neighborhood it has been enacted in, meaning permits will probably cost a couple hundred bucks a year. Can you imagine the outcry when someone spends that money and won't even be able to use it?

That's the Cranley double standard. Those other neighborhoods are "real neighborhoods" where people live, so of course they are entitled to cheap residential parking passes. But OTR is an entertainment district, so the yuppies who live there and want to part on the street can pay a premium for that privilege.

With that being said ... I am actually okay with residential parking passes in OTR being somewhat expensive. I pay $90/month to park in the Ziegler garage. Why shouldn't an on-street parking pass in the neighborhood be worth half that amount? If the city charges $200/year for residential parking passes, that's still 80% less than the cost of parking in Ziegler for the year.

Offline taestell

  • Global Moderator
  • Jeddah Tower 3,281'
  • *****
  • Posts: 7478
Re: Cincinnati: Over-the-Rhine: Development and News (non-3CDC)
« Reply #5463 on: July 11, 2018, 10:44:37 PM »
Now, here we are again facing parking crises. If I didn't have control of several parking spaces I'd be back where I was 20 years ago. And, the businesses on Main St., consultants and whatnot have that problem today. Someone coming to your atelier? Where to park?

A lack of convenient parking is a sign that the neighborhood is a place people want to go to. I'll be worried if it becomes easy to find a parking space on Main.

Offline Jimmy Skinner

  • Burj Khalifa 2,722'
  • *****
  • Posts: 1855
Re: Cincinnati: Over-the-Rhine: Development and News (non-3CDC)
« Reply #5464 on: July 12, 2018, 08:05:29 AM »
The proposed residential street parking is dumb, because all the side streets are already full of residents looking for places to park, and all this will do is make it harder for visitors to park and make residents buy permits.  There will be a lot more people trying to buy the permits than there will be spaces.

And because Cranley insists that OTR pay for everything themselves the program has to be financially self sufficient, unlike every other neighborhood it has been enacted in, meaning permits will probably cost a couple hundred bucks a year. Can you imagine the outcry when someone spends that money and won't even be able to use it?

That's the Cranley double standard. Those other neighborhoods are "real neighborhoods" where people live, so of course they are entitled to cheap residential parking passes. But OTR is an entertainment district, so the yuppies who live there and want to part on the street can pay a premium for that privilege.

With that being said ... I am actually okay with residential parking passes in OTR being somewhat expensive. I pay $90/month to park in the Ziegler garage. Why shouldn't an on-street parking pass in the neighborhood be worth half that amount? If the city charges $200/year for residential parking passes, that's still 80% less than the cost of parking in Ziegler for the year.
Yeah, but buying a pass doesn't guarantee you will find a place to park, does it?

Offline 1400 Sycamore

  • Huntington Tower 330'
  • **
  • Posts: 269
Re: Cincinnati: Over-the-Rhine: Development and News (non-3CDC)
« Reply #5465 on: July 12, 2018, 08:13:12 AM »
Now, here we are again facing parking crises. If I didn't have control of several parking spaces I'd be back where I was 20 years ago. And, the businesses on Main St., consultants and whatnot have that problem today. Someone coming to your atelier? Where to park?

A lack of convenient parking is a sign that the neighborhood is a place people want to go to. I'll be worried if it becomes easy to find a parking space on Main.

No, a lack of convenient parking shows a mistake in the balance of parking regulations, cost and availability. When I moved to OTR I found out that the SCPA teachers took 100% of the spaces witihin three blocks and left their cars there all day feeding meters or not even paying because they arrived at 7am or earlier. It took a while to get them into compliance and then, fortunately, they moved. So it is a little more complex than ^^^.

Online jmicha

  • Jeddah Tower 3,281'
  • *****
  • Posts: 3999
Re: Cincinnati: Over-the-Rhine: Development and News (non-3CDC)
« Reply #5466 on: July 12, 2018, 08:57:00 AM »
It's an urban neighborhood. You can't provide enough parking to be convenient to everyone without ruining the neighborhood. It IS a sign of popularity and success when a dense urban place doesn't have an abundance of parking.

Do you think there's a single spot in Manhattan or most of Brooklyn, Queens, The Bronx, etc. that it's convenient to park? No, because urban neighborhoods don't prioritize people coming in from the outside and parking.

We USED to prioritize that to "balance" parking needs of people coming to the neighborhood and what we got were blocks torn down for surface parking, lifeless parking garages that kill the vibe of a street, gap toothed blocks, etc. It doesn't work either because the parking kills the place it's trying to service in the first place.

Offline jim uber

  • Great American Tower 665'
  • ***
  • Posts: 713
Re: Cincinnati: Over-the-Rhine: Development and News (non-3CDC)
« Reply #5467 on: July 12, 2018, 09:00:33 AM »
^^ I think you're both right. A problem with the current "system" is that council makes recommendations on things like parking rates based mainly on needs to fill budget holes, not on things like parking demand. They don't seem to have those data, and I'm not sure they even do things like ask parking enforcement for information about where there is parking congestion or where the most tickets are written.

This isn't going to change. That's why a technology solution like Xerox proposed (or some other, better, vendor) is probably needed. I mean, just put the technology into place, gather data, present in a format ideally suited for Council to digest for policy purposes, and make the appropriate policy decisions that are implemented through the technology. And then do this on a regular basis.

Offline DEPACincy

  • Huntington Tower 330'
  • **
  • Posts: 226
Re: Cincinnati: Over-the-Rhine: Development and News (non-3CDC)
« Reply #5468 on: July 12, 2018, 10:40:05 AM »
It's hard to park in Philly, NYC, Boston, DC, San Fran, etc. It's very easy to park in Detroit, Buffalo, and Youngstown. Which would you rather be?

When I moved here I was shocked how easy it is to park downtown, and I'm equally shocked how much people complain when they can't park right in front of their destination. I'd much rather walk a few blocks if it means unsightly and unproductive surface lots can be redeveloped into something useful.

Online jmicha

  • Jeddah Tower 3,281'
  • *****
  • Posts: 3999
Re: Cincinnati: Over-the-Rhine: Development and News (non-3CDC)
« Reply #5469 on: July 12, 2018, 11:11:09 AM »
I lived in OTR for two years. I exclusively parked on the street in that time. The only times I ever had any sort of issues were if I left the neighborhood on a Saturday night and came back at like 10 PM. Otherwise there were ALWAYS spots on Republic, 15th, or Pleasant Street.

Offline taestell

  • Global Moderator
  • Jeddah Tower 3,281'
  • *****
  • Posts: 7478
Re: Cincinnati: Over-the-Rhine: Development and News (non-3CDC)
« Reply #5470 on: July 12, 2018, 11:17:10 AM »
^^ I think you're both right. A problem with the current "system" is that council makes recommendations on things like parking rates based mainly on needs to fill budget holes, not on things like parking demand. They don't seem to have those data, and I'm not sure they even do things like ask parking enforcement for information about where there is parking congestion or where the most tickets are written.

This isn't going to change. That's why a technology solution like Xerox proposed (or some other, better, vendor) is probably needed. I mean, just put the technology into place, gather data, present in a format ideally suited for Council to digest for policy purposes, and make the appropriate policy decisions that are implemented through the technology. And then do this on a regular basis.

This is exactly why I roll my eyes whenever the Enquirer cc's Donald Shoup on their tweets about Cincinnati raising parking meter rates. Shoup explicitly says that parking meter rates should not simply be raised as a revenue generating mechanism. And yet that's exactly what this administration does. We need to fill a budget hole...how much more money can we wring out of OTR?

Online jmecklenborg

  • Jeddah Tower 3,281'
  • *****
  • Posts: 15011
Re: Cincinnati: Over-the-Rhine: Development and News (non-3CDC)
« Reply #5471 on: July 12, 2018, 11:32:06 AM »
When I go downtown on a workday (only happens a few times per year), I usually ride the bus, and when people want to validate my parking ticket, I usually get a wild look when I tell them I rode the bus.  Then when I drive they're stocked by that, because I'm "the bus guy".   

Offline GCrites80s

  • Jeddah Tower 3,281'
  • *****
  • Posts: 8909
  • 1492 or 4,192?
Re: Cincinnati: Over-the-Rhine: Development and News (non-3CDC)
« Reply #5472 on: July 12, 2018, 12:09:36 PM »
You're actually more free in decent urbanism when you don't weigh 3500 pounds and take up 120 square feet.

Offline 1400 Sycamore

  • Huntington Tower 330'
  • **
  • Posts: 269
Re: Cincinnati: Over-the-Rhine: Development and News (non-3CDC)
« Reply #5473 on: July 12, 2018, 03:01:27 PM »
Oh, its just a calculation. Like Uber says, you need the data, you need to be able to respond to the data and you need compliance. That's all. If the parking in HP Square was 30 minutes free and $5 per hour after that, the businesses would flourish even more because all of the shop gals and food and drink service people would either bus in or find an appropriate parking spot. One only has to spend a few minutes in the park to see the employees re-metering. I am sure the same thing is going on on Main and Vine.

If the spots turned over through technology every 30 minutes of so a lot of problems would be solved.

Online troeros

  • Huntington Tower 330'
  • **
  • Posts: 248
Re: Cincinnati: Over-the-Rhine: Development and News (non-3CDC)
« Reply #5474 on: July 12, 2018, 07:59:01 PM »
Saw this brought up on the Cincinnati subreddit....What ever happened with Neons finding a new otr space? There were articles published about this in December of 2016, and the owner gave comments about about how they were commited to the Neons brand and that they would still continue Neons elsewhere in otr...but that never happened.

Offline Yves Behar

  • Huntington Tower 330'
  • **
  • Posts: 257
Re: Cincinnati: Over-the-Rhine: Development and News (non-3CDC)
« Reply #5475 on: July 13, 2018, 12:01:10 PM »
I don't think there was anything about the brand that was a draw, so I really don't know why they would be that committed to it. In fact the name was in reference to the previous owner's (Terry of Terry's Turf Club) neon collection, which he took with him to his burger joint before Neon's really got popular. So who knows, but I doubt it would make a difference if they were Neon's or not.

Online jmecklenborg

  • Jeddah Tower 3,281'
  • *****
  • Posts: 15011
Re: Cincinnati: Over-the-Rhine: Development and News (non-3CDC)
« Reply #5476 on: July 13, 2018, 12:37:33 PM »
I think the post-2009 iteration was officially named "Neon's Unplugged", but there was no sign with that name on it, neon or otherwise. 

Neon's (unplugged) was opened by Michael Redmond, who used to post on this forum circa 2005-2008.  He and John Back (his partner) were spot-on with their OTR predictions and each made out huge. 

Offline taestell

  • Global Moderator
  • Jeddah Tower 3,281'
  • *****
  • Posts: 7478
Re: Cincinnati: Over-the-Rhine: Development and News (non-3CDC)
« Reply #5477 on: July 13, 2018, 12:58:36 PM »
Someone told me that the Redmonds sold their ownership to Molly Wellmann so they are no longer involved in the company. In that case, I would assume there are no current efforts underway to build a "new Neon's" somewhere else. Michael might still browse here occasionally so maybe he can chime in at confirm/deny.

Offline neilworms

  • One World Trade Center 1,776'
  • ****
  • Posts: 1472
Re: Cincinnati: Over-the-Rhine: Development and News (non-3CDC)
« Reply #5478 on: July 13, 2018, 01:02:11 PM »
Cranley proposing to set fees that high for permits is ludicrous - the proposals he tossed around would have made OTR have some of the most expensive permit parking in the whole country - way more than what I spend in Chicago to park on a permitted street.

Offline helmespc

  • Metropolitan Tower 224'
  • *
  • Posts: 150
Re: Cincinnati: Over-the-Rhine: Development and News (non-3CDC)
« Reply #5479 on: July 13, 2018, 01:04:51 PM »
It's hard to park in Philly, NYC, Boston, DC, San Fran, etc. It's very easy to park in Detroit, Buffalo, and Youngstown. Which would you rather be?

When I moved here I was shocked how easy it is to park downtown, and I'm equally shocked how much people complain when they can't park right in front of their destination. I'd much rather walk a few blocks if it means unsightly and unproductive surface lots can be redeveloped into something useful.

Agreed... the Gateway garage is centrally located and usually 75%+ empty on weekends/evenings... its a helluvalot easier to park there and walk or catch the streetcar than it is to find street parking. I also find it amusing that the surface lot between Jackson and Walnut directly next-door is charging $10 to park (no such thing as hourly parking) when there is a huge, security-monitored parking facility 20 feet away for only $8 a day.

Offline taestell

  • Global Moderator
  • Jeddah Tower 3,281'
  • *****
  • Posts: 7478
Re: Cincinnati: Over-the-Rhine: Development and News (non-3CDC)
« Reply #5480 on: July 13, 2018, 01:08:18 PM »
Cranley proposing to set fees that high for permits is ludicrous - the proposals he tossed around would have made OTR have some of the most expensive permit parking in the whole country - way more than what I spend in Chicago to park on a permitted street.

Or it's a sign that other cities' residential permits are too cheap. Especially in a city like Chicago that has a much more robust public transit system than Cincinnati, why not charge full retail price for the privilege of storing your car on public land? Put the revenues directly into improving transit.

Online edale

  • One SeaGate 411'
  • **
  • Posts: 438
Re: Cincinnati: Over-the-Rhine: Development and News (non-3CDC)
« Reply #5481 on: July 13, 2018, 01:38:42 PM »
I think the city, in conjunction with 3CDC, should be looking at sites to build more parking garages in OTR to satisfy residential demand. It's unpractical for each building to have its own on-site parking, but it seems like relaxing the on-site requirements to allow for more off site parking would be a sensible solution for alleviating parking shortages. Making most of the streets with commercial development be metered would better serve visitors, and it would allow for the city to collect more revenue this way, although I admit that should not be a primary concern when evaluating parking needs. It seems like residents, many of whom might not use their car frequently anyway, would be better served by having off-street garage parking. I am still kind of perplexed why the OTR community shot down the dense garage and apartment plan at 15th and Race, as a garage here would have probably allowed for much faster redevelopment of the surrounding buildings. Now, that site is home to only a handful of townhomes (plus a modest number of apartments now under construction), and is served by surface parking. Yet the defeat of that parking garage is seen as a win by the community, it seems.

Online troeros

  • Huntington Tower 330'
  • **
  • Posts: 248
Re: Cincinnati: Over-the-Rhine: Development and News (non-3CDC)
« Reply #5482 on: July 13, 2018, 01:45:52 PM »
I think the issue with the proposed race st garage is that it would have hindered people actually walking around otr and exploring otr.

I wasn’t opposed to the idea, tbh. But I could see the concern of over saturation of parking garages and essentially catering to the visiting suburbanites coming for the bars and restaurants

Online edale

  • One SeaGate 411'
  • **
  • Posts: 438
Re: Cincinnati: Over-the-Rhine: Development and News (non-3CDC)
« Reply #5483 on: July 13, 2018, 01:51:28 PM »
^ Not if spaces are sold off to developers of nearby projects.

I'm a little uncomfortable with the idea of totally getting rid of parking requirements in the absence of any real mass transit*. I agree with others who desire a real parking study to be completed before any moves are made here. There are plenty of ways to solve parking problems, but you have to really understand the problems first.

*please don't say the streetcar. It is not mass transit.

Offline Cincy513

  • Kettering Tower 408'
  • **
  • Posts: 325
Re: Cincinnati: Over-the-Rhine: Development and News (non-3CDC)
« Reply #5484 on: July 13, 2018, 01:56:44 PM »
Not allowing the Race St garage was just another idiotic move by the idiots on OTR CC.  Instead of having more people living in the neighborhood and more places for existing and future neighbors to park they got less residences built and a surface lot wasting prime real estate. 

Online troeros

  • Huntington Tower 330'
  • **
  • Posts: 248
Re: Cincinnati: Over-the-Rhine: Development and News (non-3CDC)
« Reply #5485 on: July 13, 2018, 02:02:45 PM »
That surface lot being the new 3cdc race street condos are quite small though.

Offline Cincy513

  • Kettering Tower 408'
  • **
  • Posts: 325
Re: Cincinnati: Over-the-Rhine: Development and News (non-3CDC)
« Reply #5486 on: July 13, 2018, 02:19:21 PM »
That surface lot being the new 3cdc race street condos are quite small though.
It's a surface lot though which is a complete waste of space.  They either could have filled the space with more residences (if the parking restrictions didn't exist) or they could have added more residences and a garage (since people are so obsessed with parking).  Instead we got less of everything.   There aren't many open blocks like these left in OTR and we wasted this one.  Building up residences only around the exterior is not even close to the best use of that prime space. 

Online troeros

  • Huntington Tower 330'
  • **
  • Posts: 248
Re: Cincinnati: Over-the-Rhine: Development and News (non-3CDC)
« Reply #5487 on: July 13, 2018, 02:23:16 PM »
You just said it yourself, “people are obsessed with parking” so why are we catering to more massive garages and influencing more people to park and not explore by foot?

How is a parking garage any waste of space than a surface lot? They both sit there vacant 75% of the time on week days and fill up on weekends. So I’m not really understanding your argument.

Aside the developement on that block of race has been doing great with new shops, bars and resturaunts regardless of 3cdc previous plan for that block.
« Last Edit: July 13, 2018, 02:25:27 PM by troeros »

Offline JYP

  • Global Moderator
  • Burj Khalifa 2,722'
  • *****
  • Posts: 1555
    • Urban Cincy
Re: Cincinnati: Over-the-Rhine: Development and News (non-3CDC)
« Reply #5488 on: July 13, 2018, 02:38:55 PM »
When people complain about not having enough parking, they are really complaining about how there is not enough "free" on-street parking. People in the midwest will cruise for the free parking before accepting the meter or the garage.

It would be great if the city instituted variable parking pricing like in San Francisco. Set the current rate as a maximum. I bet it would increase on-street parking usage and encourage more off-peak parking usage.
“All truly great thoughts are conceived while walking.”
-Friedrich Nietzsche

Offline JYP

  • Global Moderator
  • Burj Khalifa 2,722'
  • *****
  • Posts: 1555
    • Urban Cincy
Re: Cincinnati: Over-the-Rhine: Development and News (non-3CDC)
« Reply #5489 on: July 13, 2018, 02:40:13 PM »
If I recall correctly, I think what happened with 15th and Race was the amount of parking being provided was much larger than the amount required by the city's zoning code. That was one complaint. Another was that it would have demolished most of the rear of the historic building on Race Street. Finally, most people just hated the architecture. It was Cincinnati Meh.

So it was about to face opposition from OTR CC and preservationists. Instead of facing another Mercer Commons-esque controversy, 3CDC backed down and changed their plans.
“All truly great thoughts are conceived while walking.”
-Friedrich Nietzsche