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General Discussions => Current Events => Topic started by: DarkandStormy on November 13, 2017, 03:19:15 PM

Title: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: DarkandStormy on November 13, 2017, 03:19:15 PM
I didn't want to hijack another thread so I started a new one.  Mods, if this fits a better current event topic, feel free to move.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/investigations/woman-says-roy-moore-initiated-sexual-encounter-when-she-was-14-he-was-32/2017/11/09/1f495878-c293-11e7-afe9-4f60b5a6c4a0_story.html?utm_term=.ed967464a41b

The furor started last week when The Washington Post published a story that four women said Republican candidate for Senate in Alabama Roy Moore pursued romantic relationships with them when they were between the ages of 14-18 and Moore was in his 30s.  Leigh Corfman says Moore sexually assaulted her when she was 14 and Moore was 32.  The Post says they interviewed more than 30 people who knew Moore from 1977-1982 (the time in question) and friends of Corfman.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/new-woman-accuses-roy-moore-sexual-assault-minor-202055321.html

Today, another woman has come forward claiming Moore assaulted her when she was just 15.

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2017/11/13/roy-moore-blasts-mcconnell-wapo-as-calls-to-leave-senate-race-grow.html

Roy Moore has called the allegations "fake news" and has threatened to sue The Washington Post.

The Republican response has been scattered - https://www.yahoo.com/news/step-aside-biblical-citations-republicans-responded-roy-moore-scandal-195044547.html

Leaders like John Kasich, (now) Mitch McConnell, John McCain, and Mitt Romney have called for Moore to step down and leave the race.

Others have said Moore should step aside "if the allegations are true."  This group included McConnell initially, Ted Cruz, Corey Gardner, and the White House.

Some have doubled down on their support.  They include Alabama State Auditor Jim Zeigler (making a bizarre reference to Joseph, Mary, and Jesus), chairman of the Republican Party in Bibb County Alabama Jerry Power, and a few others.

The election for the Senate seat previously held by Jeff Sessions is on December 12th.  Doug Jones is the Democratic candidate.
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: YABO713 on November 13, 2017, 03:35:52 PM
This is written by a Conservative, mind you...

https://www.thedailybeast.com/roy-moores-gop-stands-for-grand-old-pedobears






Also, isn't it totally normal for a District Attorney to sign high school girls yearbooks?
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: Gramarye on November 13, 2017, 04:40:07 PM
Alabama state officials actually floated pushing the election date back in order to give Moore a chance to withdraw and someone else a chance to take his place, but considering that some ballots have actually already been cast, that seems unlikely.

http://thehill.com/homenews/campaign/359872-republicans-float-ways-to-push-back-ala-special-election-date

That said, I would consider it a healing moment for the country and a win for at least some baseline standards of behavior in public officials if (a) Roy Moore were to win this Alabama special election, and (b) 18 Republicans would then immediately join 49 Democrats in expelling him from his seat.  Too much to hope for?  Maybe, but if McConnell can corral that many votes still, it's within the realm of possibility.  And the Republicans would be unlikely to be without that seat for long, because it wouldn't throw the race to the Democratic opponent; it would simply trigger another special election, one in which the Republicans could either run Luther Strange or someone completely new (given that Strange did have some conflict-of-interest baggage that helped sink him once in the primary against Moore).
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: mu2010 on November 13, 2017, 05:43:34 PM
Great conservative take on it:

Opt Out of the Lesser of Two Evils
by Michael Brendan Dougherty
November 11, 2017 11:30 AM

http://www.nationalreview.com/article/453661/roy-moore-republicans-lesser-two-evils
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: jmecklenborg on November 13, 2017, 06:05:56 PM
Each time one of these things hits the news (and there have been a ton of them this year), some woman in my facebook world starts a conversation and INEVITABLY some guy appears out of nowhere to condemn all men.  It's pretty obvious from his first post that he's trying to show off to all of the women.  Then the women get annoyed and start calling him out and he keeps digging himself a deeper hole.   I've seen this exact sequence of events play out 3-4 times now. 
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: KJP on November 13, 2017, 07:08:08 PM
Roy Moore had been banned from a mall in Gadsden, Alabama, because he badgered teen girls, residents of the town, including lawyers and cops, say: https://t.co/2PiK8XzRT8
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: jmecklenborg on November 13, 2017, 07:14:45 PM
I just had this thought -- how many Senators and reps are shaking in their boots right now?  Between the 535 of them there are no doubt quite a few more stories out there. 

Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: surfohio on November 13, 2017, 08:36:29 PM
Roy Moore had been banned from a mall in Gadsden, Alabama, because he badgered teen girls, residents of the town, including lawyers and cops, say: https://t.co/2PiK8XzRT8

Well, I now know who I want courting the young voters on the Presidential ticket… Moore/Wiener 2020.
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: Brutus_buckeye on November 13, 2017, 08:44:45 PM
This is written by a Conservative, mind you...

https://www.thedailybeast.com/roy-moores-gop-stands-for-grand-old-pedobears






Also, isn't it totally normal for a District Attorney to sign high school girls yearbooks?


THis was my reasoning when in the 2016 election for voting 3rd party
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: DarkandStormy on November 14, 2017, 08:16:38 AM
https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2017/11/13/563731656/twitter-storm-lashes-keurig-after-it-pulls-ad-from-hannity-show

Keurig pulled their ads from Hannity's show and some Hannity supporters recorded themselves destroying their Keurigs.

There's so many levels of stupid on this.
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: mu2010 on November 14, 2017, 08:18:43 AM
Volvo has now pulled their ads as well. Dying to see some of these idiots smash up their Volvos. You're not a real conservative if you don't smash your Volvo.
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: DarkandStormy on November 14, 2017, 08:27:14 AM
Volvo has now pulled their ads as well. Dying to see some of these idiots smash up their Volvos. You're not a real conservative if you don't smash your Volvo.

Gawd.  That reminds me of the stories I hear from my fiance at her work.  Several proud Republicans take joy in "taking those damn foreign cars off the road" as in, they're glad they were in an accident with a Toyota, Mazda, Kia, etc.  One has a running tally - says he's taken three out.  Nevermind the stupidity that those people will likely just get their cars fixed or buy another Toyota, Mazda, Kia, etc. if their car got totaled.
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: Gramarye on November 14, 2017, 09:12:38 AM
I just had this thought -- how many Senators and reps are shaking in their boots right now?  Between the 535 of them there are no doubt quite a few more stories out there.

I'm sure there are more.  But probably not many, maybe not any, dealing with pedophilia.  And yes, those shades of gray matter.  That's why the Clinton whataboutism is weak sauce here, even though it is quite strong in other contexts (and even The Atlantic wrote a sort of desanctifying anti-hagiography of Bill Clinton within the last week, which I read as a statement of the Clintons' declining power more than anything else ... no progressive outlet would have dared at the height of the Clinton dynasty's power, and there is no chance that article would have run if Hillary had won the election).  There are almost certainly stories in Congress of extramarital affairs and overstepping workplace boundaries, possibly egregiously so.  But the public reaction will be different (and, IMHO, justifiably so) when the younger woman in question is 28 and not 14, even if a 65-year-old Senator pursuing a 28-year-old is still off-putting.
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: KJP on November 14, 2017, 12:26:25 PM
The most frustrating thing the “banned from the mall” and more recent anecdotes tell is that lots of folks knew. They knew -- and stayed silent.
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: DarkandStormy on November 14, 2017, 12:33:33 PM
https://shareblue.com/alabama-pastors-turn-on-roy-moore-after-hes-caught-faking-endorsement-letter/

Moore and his wife touted a fake endorsement letter from Alabama pastors.
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: DarkandStormy on November 14, 2017, 02:47:23 PM
http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_slatest/2017/11/10/doug_jones_ad_confederate_officer_brave_soldiers_believed_in_their_cause.html

Doug...Doug....all you have to do is not be an asshat and you're likely 50/50 with Moore.

Quote
Roy Moore’s Democratic Challenger Recently Ran an Ad Praising the Confederate Army
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: surfohio on November 14, 2017, 02:59:12 PM
^ I kind of understand the reason for the ad is to score some "traditional values" voters. In that regard I think it was effective.
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: Gramarye on November 14, 2017, 03:28:52 PM
The most frustrating thing the “banned from the mall” and more recent anecdotes tell is that lots of folks knew. They knew -- and stayed silent.

On this, I'm willing to give the benefit of the doubt, because you can ban someone from your property (even property open to the public like a mall or restaurant, in more cases than you'd think) based on a suspicion.  You don't need proof that would convince a jury.  Just like notwithstanding the OJ verdict, it's perfectly fine to say you don't want OJ around you or your kids.  Even just in my own life, there are people that I have really dark suspicions about that I would absolutely tell my wife and kids to avoid, but I have absolutely nothing close to the level of proof that would let me go to the cops.  I just have a dark animal instinct telling me that certain people (including some pretty outwardly respectable ones) are bad news.
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: jmecklenborg on November 14, 2017, 04:21:05 PM

On this, I'm willing to give the benefit of the doubt, because you can ban someone from your property

One of my friends received a lifetime ban from the Meadowlands Sports Complex because he threw a souvenir towel. 
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: Cleburger on November 14, 2017, 05:38:00 PM
Volvo has now pulled their ads as well. Dying to see some of these idiots smash up their Volvos. You're not a real conservative if you don't smash your Volvo.

Gawd.  That reminds me of the stories I hear from my fiance at her work.  Several proud Republicans take joy in "taking those damn foreign cars off the road" as in, they're glad they were in an accident with a Toyota, Mazda, Kia, etc.  One has a running tally - says he's taken three out.  Nevermind the stupidity that those people will likely just get their cars fixed or buy another Toyota, Mazda, Kia, etc. if their car got totaled.

Or that a huge quantity of said brands are now built in places like Ohio, or.....Alabama.
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: MGM on November 14, 2017, 09:13:42 PM
Is there a current US Senator on trial for various corruption charges who had sex with teenage prostitutes?
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: smith on November 14, 2017, 09:30:09 PM
Is there a current US Senator on trial for various corruption charges who had sex with teenage prostitutes?

What about?? What about??  What about?? What about??  What about?? What about??  What about?? What about??  What about?? What about??  What about?? What about??  What about?? What about??  What about?? What about??  What about?? What about??  What about?? What about??  What about?? What about??  What about?? What about??  What about?? What about??  What about?? What about??  What about?? What about??  What about?? What about??  What about?? What about??  What about?? What about??  What about?? What about??  What about?? What about??  What about?? What about??  What about?? What about??  What about?? What about??  What about?? What about??  What about?? What about??  What about?? What about??  What about?? What about??  What about?? What about??  What about?? What about??  What about?? What about??  What about?? What about??  What about?? What about??  What about?? What about??  What about?? What about??  What about?? What about??  What about?? What about??  What about?? What about??  What about?? What about??  What about?? What about??  What about?? What about??  What about?? What about??  What about?? What about??  What about?? What about??  What about?? What about??  What about?? What about??  What about?? What about??  What about?? What about??  What about?? What about??  What about?? What about??  What about?? What about??  What about?? What about??  What about?? What about??  What about?? What about??  What about?? What about??  What about?? What about??  What about?? What about??  What about?? What about??  What about?? What about?? 
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: smith on November 14, 2017, 09:31:08 PM
Is there a current US Senator on trial for various corruption charges who had sex with teenage prostitutes?

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/dominican-police-3-women-paid-to-make-false-claims-about-menendez/2013/03/18/f2ff253c-8fe7-11e2-9abd-e4c5c9dc5e90_story.html?utm_term=.90159c73f518

Dominican police: 3 women paid to make false claims about Menendez
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: E Rocc on November 14, 2017, 09:55:24 PM
Is there a current US Senator on trial for various corruption charges who had sex with teenage prostitutes?
The most frustrating thing the “banned from the mall” and more recent anecdotes tell is that lots of folks knew. They knew -- and stayed silent.

Almost Weinsteinish.

Seriously, historically in corrupt places, people knew they couldn't get a person of influence in trouble, but they would likely be retaliated against.
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: E Rocc on November 14, 2017, 09:56:38 PM
https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2017/11/13/563731656/twitter-storm-lashes-keurig-after-it-pulls-ad-from-hannity-show

Keurig pulled their ads from Hannity's show and some Hannity supporters recorded themselves destroying their Keurigs.

There's so many levels of stupid on this.

I asked a couple of them why they didn't just sell them and donate the money.   No replies.  :)
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: E Rocc on November 14, 2017, 09:59:51 PM
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DOkB72AUMAAngdR.jpg:large)
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: MGM on November 14, 2017, 10:15:04 PM
Is there a current US Senator on trial for various corruption charges who had sex with teenage prostitutes?
The most frustrating thing the “banned from the mall” and more recent anecdotes tell is that lots of folks knew. They knew -- and stayed silent.

Almost Weinsteinish.

Seriously, historically in corrupt places, people knew they couldn't get a person of influence in trouble, but they would likely be retaliated against.
WaPo, come on man. Oh chit edit WaPo and DR police LOL. They have a nice driving while Gringo plan down there.
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: E Rocc on November 14, 2017, 10:17:04 PM
Is there a current US Senator on trial for various corruption charges who had sex with teenage prostitutes?

The Dems are understandably dragging their feet until the new Democratic governor gets sworn in.  No way they want Christie resigning for his lieutenant and getting nominated in return.
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: MGM on November 14, 2017, 10:21:24 PM
And we forgot about the the 2 Term POTUS Rapist Bill Clinton. He wasn't half bad IDK. Bush 1 now has 6 claims of groping a s s. IDK, should it be an issue?
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: TBideon on November 14, 2017, 11:50:05 PM
Other than a few outliers, male politicians are pretty much all sexual harassers and abusers, Clinton included, but this guy is a pedophile. A whole other level of evil.
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: KJP on November 15, 2017, 07:14:02 AM
"Alabama has a law generally barring defendants accused of sexual assaults from using evidence relating to their accuser’s sexual history...." Roy Moore argued to set aside this law in case of man who raped a 12-year-old https://t.co/Je3qAjKW1U
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: eastvillagedon on November 15, 2017, 01:03:26 PM
Maybe all the women Clinton assaulted will finally get their day in court after all--

I Believe Juanita
Michelle Goldberg
 NOV. 13, 2017

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/11/13/opinion/juanita-broaddrick-bill-clinton.html


Thank liberals if Roy Moore survives the charges against him
By John Podhoretz November 14, 2017 | 7:45pm

https://nypost.com/2017/11/14/thank-liberals-if-roy-moore-survives-the-charges-against-him/

Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: freefourur on November 15, 2017, 01:11:07 PM
This thread is about Roy Moore.
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: eastvillagedon on November 15, 2017, 01:14:18 PM
This thread is about Roy Moore.

evidently you cannot see the title of the second piece in my post. Is the typeface not big enough?
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: freefourur on November 15, 2017, 01:15:29 PM
Please kindly remove the first piece and put it in the Bill Clinton thread. 

Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: mu2010 on November 15, 2017, 01:19:44 PM
While the constant WHAT ABOUT THE CLINTONS???? is absolutely exasperating, I think the right wingers have a point this time. I don't think that Roy Moore is LIBRULS FAULT, but I do think Democrats have to own up to what happened in 1998. And I do think that Bill's past made it a whole lot harder for Hillary to criticize Trump last year for being a sexual predator, and that a whole lot of voters thought it was totally hypocritical and self-serving when she did.
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: freefourur on November 15, 2017, 01:22:14 PM
What Bill Clinton did was wrong but it doesn't mean we should continue to accept this behavior.  Being a jerk has no political party.  Since I was a only a ripe 16 years old when Clinton was elected, I'll focus on people being jerks today.   
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: jmecklenborg on November 15, 2017, 01:24:13 PM
Preying on teenage girls -- one apparently as young as 14 -- is a notch or two worse than preying on 24 year-old groupies. 
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: Gramarye on November 15, 2017, 01:25:09 PM
Thank liberals if Roy Moore survives the charges against him
By John Podhoretz November 14, 2017 | 7:45pm

https://nypost.com/2017/11/14/thank-liberals-if-roy-moore-survives-the-charges-against-him/

This article should be set to the lyrics of Taylor Swift's "Look What You Made Me Do."  As if conservatives have no agency and are simply reacting to the world shaped by liberals rather than working to do a bit of shaping of their own.  No.  If Roy Moore survives, thank conservatives, because they're voting for him.  Period.  And in doing so, they are utterly surrendering fronts in the culture war that actually matter.  Maybe not the ultimate ones of life, faith, and country (which I see Moore's diehard supporters invoking as the reasons we can't afford to lose even a single vote in DC), but pretty important ones of honor and fidelity and chastity (which extends well beyond blithe "kids these days" broadsides against the hookup culture among undergrads and twentysomethings today).

Alabama is not a purple state.  Allowing the election of a Democrat there would instantly create the most vulnerable Democratic seat in the nation, and if you look at the kind of campaign Moore's Democratic opponent is running, the man could practically switch to a Republican not long after reaching Washington.  Or the Senate could oust Roy Moore with a 2/3 vote of membership if he wins, and force another special election--a lot to handle in a short amount of time, but allowing Roy Moore to be one of the 100 most powerful legislators on the planet is a lot to handle for a less short amount of time, which is even worse.  And if that comes to pass, it's unlikely Doug Jones would win the second special election, either--if he can't beat a pedophile, it's unlikely he can beat a non-pedophile.  The Alabama electorate is not going to send a Sanders supporter to Capitol Hill.  That bogeyman needs to die.  The Republicans can make this a demonstration of principle that will cost them very little even in the short term, and would do a tremendous long-term service to the party and the country.
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: mu2010 on November 15, 2017, 01:30:42 PM
What Bill Clinton did was wrong but it doesn't mean we should continue to accept this behavior.  Being a jerk has no political party.  Since I was a only a ripe 16 years old when Clinton was elected, I'll focus on people being jerks today.   

Of course, and of course Moore is worse than Clinton. The question is how long the Democrats are going to have Clinton hung around their necks by the GOP, and nominating his wife probably wasn't the best move in hindsight. My only point.
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: eastvillagedon on November 15, 2017, 01:31:50 PM
^being a "jerk" is talking loudly in a theater, having too much to drink an a office Christmas party, or acting like a jr. high school kid trying to ride a skateboard when you're 50 years old. We're not talking about being a jerk, we're talking about sexual abuse, even possibly rape, for which a person should be held accountable, no matter how far back in the past that happened (I realize there are statutes of limitations which, in this case, may have already passed). I'm sure we can all agree on that, right?
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: freefourur on November 15, 2017, 01:32:47 PM
^^ I will judge "his wife" on her own indiscretions not those of her husbands.  Judging women by the behavior of their husbands is not my style
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: freefourur on November 15, 2017, 01:33:35 PM
^being a "jerk" is talking loudly in a theater, having too much to drink an a office Christmas party, or acting like a jr. high school kid trying to ride a skateboard when you're 50 years old. We're not talking about being a jerk, we're talking about sexual abuse, even possibly rape, for which a person should be held accountable, no matter how far back in the past that happened (I realize there are statutes of limitations which in this case, may have already passed). I'm sure we can all agree on that, right?

I agree on that but Bill Clinton is not on any ballot and Roy Moore is.
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: mu2010 on November 15, 2017, 01:35:57 PM
While I'm not a conservative, I really enjoy National Review and they have been killing it recently with Roy Moore:

Social Conservatives, Raise the Ethical Standard (http://www.nationalreview.com/article/453742/social-conservatives-ethical-standards-roy-moore-donald-trump)

Kennedy, Clinton, and Weinstein: A Convenient Reckoning (http://www.nationalreview.com/article/453746/kennedy-clinton-and-weinstein-sexual-assaults-accountability-conveniently-timed)

Also here's a good Vox piece about Clinton: Bill Clinton Should Have Resigned (https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2017/11/15/16634776/clinton-lewinsky-resigned)
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: mu2010 on November 15, 2017, 01:37:13 PM
^^ I will judge "his wife" on her own indiscretions not those of her husbands.  Judging women by the behavior of their husbands is not my style

Agreed, the problem is that she definitely took part in smearing and discrediting those women, and it affects her credibility to run around saying "believe the women" 20 years later... even if "believe the women" is the right thing to say.

I agree on that but Bill Clinton is not on any ballot and Roy Moore is.

For those who want to use Clinton as an excuse to justify voting for Moore, that is wrong. For campaigns to use it to change the subject, that is incredibly wrong. But by nominating Hillary, and not taking a look in the mirror at what was done in 1998, Democrats exposed themselves to this line of attack.
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: freefourur on November 15, 2017, 01:40:46 PM
^ I agree with your statement but it seems that the electorate let the fact that she defended her husband hold more wight than someone who actually admitted to sexual assault on tape. 
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: eastvillagedon on November 15, 2017, 01:40:58 PM
^^ I will judge "his wife" on her own indiscretions not those of her husbands.  Judging women by the behavior of their husbands is not my style
well, ideally that should be the case, but Hillary was very much instrumental in the smear campaign to silence Bill Clinton's accusers, so yes, her husband's behavior was fair game in evaluating her fitness for the presidency.
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: freefourur on November 15, 2017, 01:42:06 PM
^ Agreed, on her behavior but her husband's.

also see me comment above.
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: Gramarye on November 15, 2017, 01:43:43 PM
^being a "jerk" is talking loudly in a theater, having too much to drink an a office Christmas party, or acting like a jr. high school kid trying to ride a skateboard when you're 50 years old. We're not talking about being a jerk, we're talking about sexual abuse, even possibly rape, for which a person should be held accountable, no matter how far back in the past that happened (I realize there are statutes of limitations which, in this case, may have already passed). I'm sure we can all agree on that, right?

I agree with the overall sentiment, but remember that statutes of limitations apply in court proceedings, not in political debates.  There is no more a statute of limitations on discussing the political ramifications of Bill Clinton's or Roy Moore's sexual conduct in the 1970s than there is of discussing how far we should take the fact that Thomas Jefferson owned slaves in the 1770s, or that the Gilded Age robber barons engaged in business practices that would be illegal today in the 1870s.  Politics is overlawyered.

Mitt Romney made a legitimate point when he noted that because this a courtroom, we also do not need to wait for the allegations to be proven beyond a reasonable doubt.  In fact, this is not even a civil case where we need to wait for the preponderance of the evidence, like it would be if one of Moore's alleged harassers took him to court in a lawsuit.  In that case, I'd be the first one defending his right to the full suite of due process protections, just like I do with far less powerful people--undergraduate students--alleged to have committed sexual misconduct on college campuses and frequently tried without due process in campus tribunals.  He would be entitled to counsel, to present evidence, to call witnesses, to know the allegations against him, and to challenge the evidence brought by those accusing him.  (If elevated to a criminal matter, he would further have the right to a speedy and public trial by jury, to refuse to testify, and to be safe against cruel and unusual punishment.)  But we're not testing him to see whether he's a criminal.  We're not even testing him to see whether he's caused damage to a private party.  We're "testing" to see whether he should be one of the most powerful men in the country.
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: mu2010 on November 15, 2017, 01:47:12 PM
^ I agree with your statement but it seems that the electorate let the fact that she defended her husband hold more wight than someone who actually admitted to sexual assault on tape. 

Yeah I mean I voted for Hillary, I was a big backer of Hillary. I don't think that Bill Clinton's stuff justified voting for Trump, I don't think anything justified voting for him, but not everyone is the same as me, and a lot of Republican voters used it to make the justification to vote for somebody who they disliked, right or wrong. So I'm just saying it's something Dems need to own up to going forward in order to regain credibility, and I'm saying that nominating Hillary in 2016 damaged that credibility.
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: DarkandStormy on November 15, 2017, 01:47:51 PM
https://thinkprogress.org/roy-moore-attorney-msnbc-e37c6b5f31b0/

Lolololololol
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: Gramarye on November 15, 2017, 01:48:41 PM
While I'm not a conservative, I really enjoy National Review and they have been killing it recently with Roy Moore:

Social Conservatives, Raise the Ethical Standard (http://www.nationalreview.com/article/453742/social-conservatives-ethical-standards-roy-moore-donald-trump)

Kennedy, Clinton, and Weinstein: A Convenient Reckoning (http://www.nationalreview.com/article/453746/kennedy-clinton-and-weinstein-sexual-assaults-accountability-conveniently-timed)

Also here's a good Vox piece about Clinton: Bill Clinton Should Have Resigned (https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2017/11/15/16634776/clinton-lewinsky-resigned)

I am a conservative and greatly appreciate NR, too, but there's some preemptive spiking the ball here, or at least scoring points by kicking an intramural opponent while they're down.  NR pushed strongly for Luther Strange.  Remember that NR is in large part the intellectual voice of the Republican "establishment" or elite.  They published a full issue of nothing but anti-Trump articles in the primary in the hopes of stopping him.  (The magazine ultimately endorsed Cruz.)  If they can convince the Senate to axe Moore as soon as he arrives in DC, there's a good chance that Strange will get the nod for the second special election.  It's unlikely, and NR has nothing like the power it used to in the pre-Trump age (as attested first and foremost by the fact that they failed to stop him).  But they'd definitely be on board with that course of events should it come to pass.
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: eastvillagedon on November 15, 2017, 01:56:28 PM
^being a "jerk" is talking loudly in a theater, having too much to drink an a office Christmas party, or acting like a jr. high school kid trying to ride a skateboard when you're 50 years old. We're not talking about being a jerk, we're talking about sexual abuse, even possibly rape, for which a person should be held accountable, no matter how far back in the past that happened (I realize there are statutes of limitations which, in this case, may have already passed). I'm sure we can all agree on that, right?

I agree with the overall sentiment, but remember that statutes of limitations apply in court proceedings, not in political debates.  There is no more a statute of limitations on discussing the political ramifications of Bill Clinton's or Roy Moore's sexual conduct in the 1970s than there is of discussing how far we should take the fact that Thomas Jefferson owned slaves in the 1770s, or that the Gilded Age robber barons engaged in business practices that would be illegal today in the 1870s.  Politics is overlawyered.

Mitt Romney made a legitimate point when he noted that because this a courtroom, we also do not need to wait for the allegations to be proven beyond a reasonable doubt.  In fact, this is not even a civil case where we need to wait for the preponderance of the evidence, like it would be if one of Moore's alleged harassers took him to court in a lawsuit.  In that case, I'd be the first one defending his right to the full suite of due process protections, just like I do with far less powerful people--undergraduate students--alleged to have committed sexual misconduct on college campuses and frequently tried without due process in campus tribunals.  He would be entitled to counsel, to present evidence, to call witnesses, to know the allegations against him, and to challenge the evidence brought by those accusing him.  (If elevated to a criminal matter, he would further have the right to a speedy and public trial by jury, to refuse to testify, and to be safe against cruel and unusual punishment.)  But we're not testing him to see whether he's a criminal.  We're not even testing him to see whether he's caused damage to a private party.  We're "testing" to see whether he should be one of the most powerful men in the country.
but if the allegations are entirely false, then an innocent person's reputation has been totally ruined as a result of last minute political smear campaign. Where is the due process? Or is it just tough luck?
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: freefourur on November 15, 2017, 01:58:47 PM
^ We have to look at this from the preponderance of the "evidence" that we have seen so far.  5 women have made these allegations on the record, 30 people have corroborated, rumors of this behavior have existed for decades,  and his own denial was more damning than any of the accusations. On top of that he has been thrown off the bench 2x for having no respect for the rule of law.  This man is unfit for the Senate.
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: Robuu on November 15, 2017, 02:15:32 PM
Happy to see so much general agreement in here.
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: Gramarye on November 15, 2017, 02:21:59 PM
but if the allegations are entirely false, then an innocent person's reputation has been totally ruined as a result of last minute political smear campaign. Where is the due process? Or is it just tough luck?

There are issues of discipline and reputation that fall between pure luck and full legal due process.  For example, assume these allegations are false.  Do you think a smear campaign, even one of this swiftness and extraordinary coordination (which it would have to be if there were a false, orchestrated propaganda effort) would stick on VP Mike Pence?  With the known lengths he goes to to preempt the credibility of such a campaign?  Do you think it would stick on Mitt Romney or Jeff Flake, the Mormon Republicans who have been at the forefront of the Republicans stating that Moore is unfit for the Senate?  Sure, such a smear campaign would stick in some corners, but only among the progressives who will reflexively believe anything negative about any Republican, whose votes are never in play, and whose voices are easily ignored on the right as easily as Nancy Pelosi ignores Crisis Magazine (notwithstanding her professed Catholicism).  Would rank and file Republicans (and even the blue-collar conservatives among the Democrats whose votes are more in play than party leaders want to reckon with, such as rank-and-file union membership) find such allegations so immediately credible?  No.  There would be calls for additional evidence and corroboration, not because of legalistic due process concerns, but because it would simply take more convincing for us to actually believe the victim.  (Thus my frequent critique of mindless chants of "believe the victim" ... believe the victim when they say what about whom?  Dogmatic assertions that that's not even a relevant question are just demands to take leave of one's reason.)

There is no analogue to the magic 50%+1 threshold for preponderance-of-evidence litigation or democratic elections when it comes to reputation.  It's perfectly legitimate to say that I would be highly skeptical of the same allegations leveled against Mike Pence, moderately skeptical of the same allegations leveled against John Kasich, slightly skeptical of the same allegations leveled against Johnny Manziel, and not particularly skeptical of the same allegations leveled against Roy Moore or Ray Rice.
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: mu2010 on November 15, 2017, 02:50:22 PM
^ Why exactly? Just the general feeling you get about said people?

I don't think it's hard to tell who's a creep and who's not if you are relatively well-adjusted, but sometimes there are surprises. I really respected George H.W. Bush as a person of integrity and dignity, but now it's coming out he's a groper too.
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: DarkandStormy on November 15, 2017, 03:08:17 PM
https://lawandcrime.com/high-profile/roy-moore-cast-the-sole-vote-in-favor-of-a-man-who-raped-a-four-year-old/

Good God.

Quote
Roy Moore Cast The Sole Vote In Favor Of A Man Who Raped A Four-Year-Old
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: freefourur on November 15, 2017, 03:10:39 PM
Speaking of Hillary and her being held to a higher standard than men, when the Harvey Weinstein stuff came out, people (including trump Jr.) made it all about her.  She didn't speak about about him for 5 days...yada yada yada.  Yet Trump has said nothing about a US Senate candidate accused of the same crimes.  It must be nice to president and held to lower standard than a private citizen.

Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: Cleburger on November 15, 2017, 03:18:03 PM
What Bill Clinton did was wrong but it doesn't mean we should continue to accept this behavior.  Being a jerk has no political party.  Since I was a only a ripe 16 years old when Clinton was elected, I'll focus on people being jerks today.   

Of course, and of course Moore is worse than Clinton. The question is how long the Democrats are going to have Clinton hung around their necks by the GOP, and nominating his wife probably wasn't the best move in hindsight. My only point.

The will hang around their necks as long as Fox News exists and preaches to the millions of faithful.   

Meanwhile the GOP has a guy preying on 14 year olds and the primetime Fox host defended him. 

This is the party of FAMILY VALUES right?   As Confucious once said, "man who fart in church must sit in own pew."   Well GOP, you're stinking up the joint. 
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: Gramarye on November 15, 2017, 03:42:28 PM
I don't think it's hard to tell who's a creep and who's not if you are relatively well-adjusted, but sometimes there are surprises. I really respected George H.W. Bush as a person of integrity and dignity, but now it's coming out he's a groper too.

The flip side of "sometimes there are surprises," though, is "most of the time, there aren't."  If there were, they wouldn't be surprises.

And with respect to GHWB, I'll actually admit I haven't read much of the accounts of the allegations against him.  I'll also state--fairly or otherwise is your own call, of course--that it would take quite a bit more to tarnish his reputation as far as I'm concerned than it would for someone like Moore.  He's done enough to earn that.  (Also, I admit I do give at least some weight to the fact that he's 93.  Moore is old enough to know better.  GHWB is old enough that he might be starting to not know better.)
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: E Rocc on November 15, 2017, 10:44:19 PM
While the constant WHAT ABOUT THE CLINTONS???? is absolutely exasperating, I think the right wingers have a point this time. I don't think that Roy Moore is LIBRULS FAULT, but I do think Democrats have to own up to what happened in 1998. And I do think that Bill's past made it a whole lot harder for Hillary to criticize Trump last year for being a sexual predator, and that a whole lot of voters thought it was totally hypocritical and self-serving when she did.

During the Clarence Thomas hearings, the Dems had the presence of mind to keep Teddy Kennedy out of it.
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: E Rocc on November 15, 2017, 10:49:20 PM
While I'm not a conservative, I really enjoy National Review and they have been killing it recently with Roy Moore:

Social Conservatives, Raise the Ethical Standard (http://www.nationalreview.com/article/453742/social-conservatives-ethical-standards-roy-moore-donald-trump)

Kennedy, Clinton, and Weinstein: A Convenient Reckoning (http://www.nationalreview.com/article/453746/kennedy-clinton-and-weinstein-sexual-assaults-accountability-conveniently-timed)

Also here's a good Vox piece about Clinton: Bill Clinton Should Have Resigned (https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2017/11/15/16634776/clinton-lewinsky-resigned)

The Weekly Standard has been on it too:

http://www.weeklystandard.com/roy-moore-is-constitutionally-illiterate/article/2010482
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: E Rocc on November 15, 2017, 10:53:03 PM
Whoa.

http://www.cnn.com/2017/11/15/politics/ivanka-trump-roy-moore/index.html

I suspect people actually underestimate how much Trump listens to Ivanka, far and away his most accomplished and competent adult child.

He's been quiet on this.   He may say he has been focused on his Asia trip, but let's be real he focuses like my daughter after she snuck into her Halloween candy.

And there's no ego involved here.  He supported Luther Strange in the primary.
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: X on November 16, 2017, 12:56:59 AM
Of course he's been quiet! How many allegations have there been towards him, including allegations of raping a 13 year old?  He's not about to try to turn the spotlight onto him.
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: DarkandStormy on November 16, 2017, 09:30:17 AM
https://www.cnbc.com/amp/2017/11/15/roy-moore-campaign-lawyer-statement.html

Four more women came forward yesterday with allegations.

http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_slatest/2017/11/15/a_high_school_senior_wouldn_t_give_moore_her_number_so_he_called_her_at.html

Apparently after not getting a high school senior's number at the mall, Moore proceeded to try to call her at school.  Moore was 30 at the time.
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: DarkandStormy on November 16, 2017, 09:34:28 AM
http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_slatest/2017/11/15/sean_hannity_s_9_p_m_deadline_for_roy_moore_to_prove_his_innocence.html

Hahahahaha, goddammit Hannity.
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: Gramarye on November 16, 2017, 11:02:27 AM
Best quote on this yet, again from National Review:

"From what he has said over the years, Moore regards the 9/11 attacks as punishment for America’s sins. I wonder whether he sees his current predicament in a similar light."

http://www.nationalreview.com/article/453756/roy-moore-affair-and-more-jay-nordlingers-impromptus-november-16-2017
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: Ram23 on November 16, 2017, 11:08:53 AM
In the wake of the allegations against potential-Senator Roy Moore, another woman has come forward with not just an accusation, but photographic evidence of her abuse by another current Senator:

‘Al Franken kissed and groped me without my consent,’ broadcaster Leeann Tweeden says

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/powerpost/wp/2017/11/16/al-franken-kissed-and-groped-me-without-my-consent-broadcaster-leeann-tweeden-says/

“You knew exactly what you were doing,” Tweeden wrote in a blog post for Los Angeles radio station KABC, for which she works as a morning news anchor. “You forcibly kissed me without my consent, grabbed my breasts while I was sleeping and had someone take a photo of you doing it, knowing I would see it later and be ashamed.”
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: YABO713 on November 16, 2017, 11:16:09 AM
A) Huge difference between groping 14 year old girls and a grown woman.

B) BOTH ARE ENTIRELY UNACCEPTABLE and should disqualify you from office. If you want Roy Moore to step down, but oppose an investigation into Franken's behavior that could end in his removal - look in the mirror. If we want this to stop in government, in cannot only be an issue when a Republican does it.
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: freefourur on November 16, 2017, 11:32:51 AM
^ Yabo - I think Franken should step down.  But don't make this a democrats don't care about this stuff thing because no democrats or media outlets are defending Franken.  I insist that ANYONE with credible sexual harassment/assault accusations against them should step down immediately.  This includes Trump, Franken and Moore.

Also interesting that the "liberal media" CNN ran a clock when the Weinstein accuations came out about how long it took HRC to respond but no similar clock for Trump and Roy Moore. 
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: StapHanger on November 16, 2017, 11:37:20 AM
And the obvious comparisons to Bill Clinton aren't exactly being ignored by the "liberal' press either. Current story with lede on NYT main site:

‘What About Bill?’ Sexual Misconduct Debate Revives Questions About Clinton
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/11/15/us/politics/bill-clinton-sexual-misconduct-debate.html?hp&action=click&pgtype=Homepage&clickSource=story-heading&module=first-column-region&region=top-news&WT.nav=top-news
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: DarkandStormy on November 16, 2017, 12:04:52 PM
In the wake of the allegations against potential-Senator Roy Moore, another woman has come forward with not just an accusation, but photographic evidence of her abuse by another current Senator:

‘Al Franken kissed and groped me without my consent,’ broadcaster Leeann Tweeden says

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/powerpost/wp/2017/11/16/al-franken-kissed-and-groped-me-without-my-consent-broadcaster-leeann-tweeden-says/

“You knew exactly what you were doing,” Tweeden wrote in a blog post for Los Angeles radio station KABC, for which she works as a morning news anchor. “You forcibly kissed me without my consent, grabbed my breasts while I was sleeping and had someone take a photo of you doing it, knowing I would see it later and be ashamed.”

The what-a-boutism with you is astounding.
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: eastvillagedon on November 16, 2017, 12:59:52 PM
In the wake of the allegations against potential-Senator Roy Moore, another woman has come forward with not just an accusation, but photographic evidence of her abuse by another current Senator:

‘Al Franken kissed and groped me without my consent,’ broadcaster Leeann Tweeden says

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/powerpost/wp/2017/11/16/al-franken-kissed-and-groped-me-without-my-consent-broadcaster-leeann-tweeden-says/

“You knew exactly what you were doing,” Tweeden wrote in a blog post for Los Angeles radio station KABC, for which she works as a morning news anchor. “You forcibly kissed me without my consent, grabbed my breasts while I was sleeping and had someone take a photo of you doing it, knowing I would see it later and be ashamed.”

now why should Al Franken be allowed to keep his seat in the Senate??

GOP criticize Franken over rape joke in 1995 article

http://www.twincities.com/2008/06/04/gop-criticize-franken-over-rape-joke-in-1995-article/

According to the article, Franken’s suggestion includes Rooney saying: “I give the pills to Leslie Stahl. Then when Leslie is passed out, I take her to the closet and rape her. Or ‘That’s why you never see Lesley until February. Or, ‘When she passes out. I put her in various positions and take pictures of her.’ ”
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: taestell on November 16, 2017, 01:18:55 PM
Franken quickly admits the accusations are true, apologies, and calls for an ethics investigation (on himself) (https://twitter.com/ABCPolitics/status/931216210464735232). In the mean time, liberals never attempted to make excuses for Franken or discredit the woman who made the accusation.

Accusations have come out about a lot of men, both liberal and conservative, in recent months. The difference is that liberals are willing to say that what Franken or Weinstein or Louis CK did are wrong. While conservatives will do everything they can to discredit the women who are making the accusations or just look the other way so their preferred politicians can stay in power.
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: eastvillagedon on November 16, 2017, 01:37:04 PM
^there must have been a lot of Al Franken's allies, both in politics and in Hollywood, who surely must have been aware of his behavior over the years, yet they said nothing. By remaining silent for decades--like the Hollywood crowd who said nothing about Harvey Weinstein for many, many years--all of these "good liberals" were, in essence, making excuses for these sleazeballs. Likewise all the "feminists" and liberal "journalists" who ignored Bill Clinton's behavior 25 years ago yet now act holier-than-thou about Roy Moore and Trump. Complete hypocrites.
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: YABO713 on November 16, 2017, 01:45:22 PM
^there must have been a lot of Al Franken's allies, both in politics and in Hollywood, who surely must have been aware of his behavior over the years, yet they said nothing. By remaining silent for decades--like the Hollywood crowd who said nothing about Harvey Weinstein for many, many years--all of these "good liberals" were, in essence, making excuses for these sleazeballs. Likewise all the "feminists" and liberal "journalists" who ignored Bill Clinton's behavior 25 years ago yet now act holier-than-thou about Roy Moore and Trump. Complete hypocrites.

"Your honor, sure my client murdered these people. But what about Jeffrey Dahmer? What about Charles Manson? What about Ted Kaczynski - surely his mom knew he was the unabomber."
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: jmecklenborg on November 16, 2017, 01:45:44 PM
There is a big difference between stuff that is actually illegal, esp. as it pertains to minors, as to opposed to stuff that did or didn't go on between grown adults.  An incident that involves a minor, by default, can't be consensual. 

We don't know if there was a pattern with Franken or not, but he is definitely not a Family Values warrior, which this dude from Alabama definitely was, and which Bill Clinton claimed to be back in the 90s. 
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: freefourur on November 16, 2017, 01:47:50 PM
In the wake of the allegations against potential-Senator Roy Moore, another woman has come forward with not just an accusation, but photographic evidence of her abuse by another current Senator:

‘Al Franken kissed and groped me without my consent,’ broadcaster Leeann Tweeden says

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/powerpost/wp/2017/11/16/al-franken-kissed-and-groped-me-without-my-consent-broadcaster-leeann-tweeden-says/

“You knew exactly what you were doing,” Tweeden wrote in a blog post for Los Angeles radio station KABC, for which she works as a morning news anchor. “You forcibly kissed me without my consent, grabbed my breasts while I was sleeping and had someone take a photo of you doing it, knowing I would see it later and be ashamed.”

now why should Al Franken be allowed to keep his seat in the Senate??

GOP criticize Franken over rape joke in 1995 article

http://www.twincities.com/2008/06/04/gop-criticize-franken-over-rape-joke-in-1995-article/

According to the article, Franken’s suggestion includes Rooney saying: “I give the pills to Leslie Stahl. Then when Leslie is passed out, I take her to the closet and rape her. Or ‘That’s why you never see Lesley until February. Or, ‘When she passes out. I put her in various positions and take pictures of her.’ ”

You are correct.  People who make locker room jokes shouldn't serve. 
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: freefourur on November 16, 2017, 01:48:59 PM
^there must have been a lot of Al Franken's allies, both in politics and in Hollywood, who surely must have been aware of his behavior over the years, yet they said nothing. By remaining silent for decades--like the Hollywood crowd who said nothing about Harvey Weinstein for many, many years--all of these "good liberals" were, in essence, making excuses for these sleazeballs. Likewise all the "feminists" and liberal "journalists" who ignored Bill Clinton's behavior 25 years ago yet now act holier-than-thou about Roy Moore and Trump. Complete hypocrites.

Can't the same thing be said about Trump and Moore?  Nobody but Trumpservatives are making excuses from behavior. 
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: freefourur on November 16, 2017, 01:52:58 PM
One thing I am seeing here and elsewhere on the internet is liberals not sticking up for sexual assault from anyone while conservatives are still whatabouting their side.  Let me make this simple for the Trump crowd.  There is no side except to admonish the sexual assaulter.  Next - Why won't Trump comment on wither Moore or Franken?  He had an opportunity today but decided to walk away from the media.  Someone explain that without whatabouting please.
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: DarkandStormy on November 16, 2017, 01:54:13 PM
By remaining silent for decades--like the Hollywood crowd who said nothing about Harvey Weinstein for many, many years--all of these "good liberals" were, in essence, making excuses for these sleazeballs. Likewise all the "feminists" and liberal "journalists" who ignored Bill Clinton's behavior 25 years ago yet now act holier-than-thou about Roy Moore and Trump. Complete hypocrites.

By remaining silent for decades--like the GOP crowd who said nothing about Roy Moore for many, many years--all of these "family value conservatives" were, in essence, making excuses for these sleazeballs. Likewise all the "moral conservatives" and conservative "journalists" who ignore Roy Moore and Donald Trump's behavior TO THIS TODAY yet now act holier-than-thou about Harvey Weinstein and Al Franken. Complete hypocrites.

Do you...do you even comprehend what you write? Jesus.
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: eastvillagedon on November 16, 2017, 01:55:22 PM


We don't know if there was a pattern with Franken or not, but he is definitely not a Family Values warrior
at least you're honest enough to say that progressives have no moral compass
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: KJP on November 16, 2017, 02:02:03 PM


We don't know if there was a pattern with Franken or not, but he is definitely not a Family Values warrior
at least you're honest enough to say that progressives have no moral compass

Pot, meet kettle.
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: freefourur on November 16, 2017, 02:04:22 PM


We don't know if there was a pattern with Franken or not, but he is definitely not a Family Values warrior
at least you're honest enough to say that progressives have no moral compass

What would you say about a group of people the try to attack accusers and drum up their past?
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: YABO713 on November 16, 2017, 02:05:09 PM
So completely f****d that we are even arguing, from either side, about this. They are both wrong and they should both step down given the massive evidence against them. Referring to another case as a moral equivalency re: sexual abuse makes you a scum-bag.

Don't let this Administration cloud things, there is still an object right and wrong, true and untrue. Both men are wrong. Both should step down.
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: TBideon on November 16, 2017, 02:05:12 PM
"at least you're honest enough to say that progressives have no moral compass"

When it came to accepting Bill Clinton's behavior, perhaps they didn't. And frankly their accepting bad behavior went well beyond Clinton and liberal politicians, and still does to this day.

As a whole, liberals and democrats weren't quite as ugly towards the Anita Hills and Monika Lewinskies as their conservative counterparts, but their behaviors were still abominable
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: freefourur on November 16, 2017, 02:07:24 PM
"at least you're honest enough to say that progressives have no moral compass"

When it came to accepting Bill Clinton's behavior, perhaps they didn't. Liberals and democrats weren't quite as ugly towards the Anita Hills and Monika Lewinskies as their conservative counterparts, but their behaviors were still abominable

This is why this should not be looked at with a political lens.  Don't try to defend your tribe.  All men with credible accusations should step down today this includes but is not limited to:

Franken
Trump
Moore
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: eastvillagedon on November 16, 2017, 02:11:12 PM


We don't know if there was a pattern with Franken or not, but he is definitely not a Family Values warrior
at least you're honest enough to say that progressives have no moral compass

What would you say about a group of people the try to attack accusers and drum up their past?
okay, no more about Hillary Clinton!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pgFha2zOsJk
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: TBideon on November 16, 2017, 02:11:14 PM
Scott DesJarlais as well
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: freefourur on November 16, 2017, 02:12:27 PM


We don't know if there was a pattern with Franken or not, but he is definitely not a Family Values warrior
at least you're honest enough to say that progressives have no moral compass



What would you say about a group of people the try to attack accusers and drum up their past?
okay, no more about Hillary Clinton!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pgFha2zOsJk

So you agree that attacking the accusers and calling them liars is despicable?
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: YABO713 on November 16, 2017, 02:15:31 PM
I've never been more embarrassed to be a member on here. You all are good people. Look at yourself.

They're both wrong. They should both step down. Period. End-of-story.
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: freefourur on November 16, 2017, 02:16:56 PM
I've never been more embarrassed to be a member on here. You all are good people. Look at yourself.

They're bothall wrong. They should both all step down. Period. End-of-story.

FTFY
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: DarkandStormy on November 16, 2017, 02:25:40 PM
https://www.politico.com/story/2017/11/15/roy-moore-doug-jones-poll-244937

The latest National Republican (so it's not biased, ya know?) Senatorial Committee poll has Doug Jones up 51-39 in the wake of the allegations.

http://abcnews.go.com/US/roy-moores-accusers-responses/story?id=51138718

Moore faces accusations from eight different women.
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: Ram23 on November 16, 2017, 02:46:04 PM
"at least you're honest enough to say that progressives have no moral compass"

When it came to accepting Bill Clinton's behavior, perhaps they didn't. Liberals and democrats weren't quite as ugly towards the Anita Hills and Monika Lewinskies as their conservative counterparts, but their behaviors were still abominable

This is why this should not be looked at with a political lens.  Don't try to defend your tribe.  All men with credible accusations should step down today this includes but is not limited to:

Franken
Trump
Moore

There are no credible accusations against Trump. The accusations against Moore certainly seem credible and deserve to be scrutinized - further, the accusations against him are the worst of the bunch given that the alleged transgressions involve children. The accusations against Franken are accompanied by pretty clear photographic evidence. He might as well have had it notarized. Luckily, technology allows us to capture these creeps easily these days - people like Franken and Anthony Weiner don't really have much of a defense - their naughty pictures speak for themselves. We don't have to toss a coin on a he said/she said debate.
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: freefourur on November 16, 2017, 02:47:20 PM
Why are Trump's accusations not credible.  He admitted to sexual assault on camera.  He also admitted to walking in on naked children on the Howard Stern show.  They should all resign. 
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: freefourur on November 16, 2017, 03:01:58 PM
This is rather strange:

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DOx6vcaWkAAyBQZ.jpg:large)
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: DarkandStormy on November 16, 2017, 03:11:59 PM
The accusations against Moore certainly seem credible and deserve to be scrutinized - further, the accusations against him are the worst of the bunch given that the alleged transgressions involve children.

AKA "I'm not sure I believe the women, I need to think about it and possibly require more evidence to believe them."  You're a piece of work, man.
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: KJP on November 16, 2017, 03:52:03 PM
I swear that most of these anti-gay, "family values" lawmakers take such stances to disguise their shame over who/what they really are...

‘Inappropriate behavior’ with man in his office led to Ohio lawmaker’s ouster
http://www.dispatch.com/news/20171115/inappropriate-behavior-with-man-in-his-office-led-to-ohio-lawmakers-ouster

"Inappropriate" as in he was having sex in his office...
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: Ram23 on November 16, 2017, 06:09:21 PM
^ People certainly say and do things "officially" to compensate for their personal transgressions. For example:

(https://i.redd.it/83pctbsp0dyz.jpg)
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: DarkandStormy on November 16, 2017, 06:40:38 PM
What about?? What about?? What about?? What about?? What about?? What about?? What about?? What about?? What about??

Trumpies are the worst.
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: jmecklenborg on November 16, 2017, 06:47:29 PM
I had not heard of this woman until today.  Yeah, that photo is pretty dumb, especially since Franken is at least 2X too old to be staging frat party type inside joke photos, but I'd bet that she was pretty flirty since apparently she is a former Hooter's girl and posed twice in Playboy:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leeann_Tweeden

There is a big difference between pursuing naďve teenage girls and joking around with one who posed in Playboy. 
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: freefourur on November 16, 2017, 07:43:01 PM
Is Franken even touching her in that photo?  It looks like a very tasteless and crude joke.  The victim is a regular on Hannity and there seemed to be some advanced knowledge that this was coming out.  I think the ethics investigation is appropriate here.  That pedophile in Alabama should own what he did.
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: jmecklenborg on November 16, 2017, 08:32:59 PM
There is a big difference between pursuing naďve teenage girls and joking around with one who posed in Playboy. 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XKCnv0hxX-g

I'd bet that she was pretty flirty since apparently she is a former

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_S17rVlf_YM


Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: freefourur on November 16, 2017, 09:29:37 PM
as usual the liberals are the realists and Trumpservatives live in a fantasy world.

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DOxCMD-XkAAULjm.jpg)
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: E Rocc on November 16, 2017, 09:37:55 PM
"at least you're honest enough to say that progressives have no moral compass"

When it came to accepting Bill Clinton's behavior, perhaps they didn't. Liberals and democrats weren't quite as ugly towards the Anita Hills and Monika Lewinskies as their conservative counterparts, but their behaviors were still abominable

This is why this should not be looked at with a political lens.  Don't try to defend your tribe.  All men with credible accusations should step down today this includes but is not limited to:

Franken
Trump
Moore

Menendez
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: freefourur on November 16, 2017, 09:40:59 PM
^ speaking of Menendez, it seems like he might be benefiting from the poor precedent set in the McDonnell case. 
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: E Rocc on November 16, 2017, 10:06:18 PM
Is Franken even touching her in that photo?  It looks like a very tasteless and crude joke.  The victim is a regular on Hannity and there seemed to be some advanced knowledge that this was coming out.  I think the ethics investigation is appropriate here.  That pedophile in Alabama should own what he did.

Franken already admitted it, I give him some credit for that.  She's a longtime conservative and I'm sure there would have been a lot more speculation about *her* motivations had he not.

What's kind of wild is Valerie Jarrett tweeted that pic saying "Just imagine your mom, spouse, sister or daughter in this photo.  Not so funny now, is it?"
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: X on November 16, 2017, 10:11:33 PM
Meanwhile, back on the topic if this thread, the Alabama GOP is closing ranks around a pedophile:

nytimes.com
Alabama G.O.P. Says It Stands Behind Roy Moore
Alan Blinder
9-11 minutes
Roy S. Moore at Walker Springs Road Baptist Church in Jackson, Ala., on Tuesday. Brynn Anderson/Associated Press

BIRMINGHAM, Ala. — The Alabama Republican Party on Thursday offered unqualified support to the embattled candidacy of Roy S. Moore, ignoring the condemnation of national Republican leaders and brushing aside worries that he could lose a Senate race in a solidly conservative state — or be expelled from Congress if he wins.

Invoking the need for guidance from God, a statement from the party’s chairwoman, Terry Lathan, referred only indirectly to the allegations of sexual misconduct and unwanted overtures against women that have upended the Senate race here. Ms. Lathan said the party trusted voters to make the right decision and backed Mr. Moore, a former chief justice of the State Supreme Court, as a conservative supporter of President Trump running against the Democrat, Doug Jones.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/11/16/us/roy-moore-alabama-republicans.html?hp&action=click&pgtype=Homepage&clickSource=story-heading&module=first-column-region&region=top-news&WT.nav=top-news&_r=0


Invoking the need for guidance by God, indeed!
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: E Rocc on November 17, 2017, 12:43:16 AM
Meanwhile, back on the topic if this thread, the Alabama GOP is closing ranks around a pedophile:

nytimes.com
Alabama G.O.P. Says It Stands Behind Roy Moore
Alan Blinder
9-11 minutes
Roy S. Moore at Walker Springs Road Baptist Church in Jackson, Ala., on Tuesday. Brynn Anderson/Associated Press

BIRMINGHAM, Ala. — The Alabama Republican Party on Thursday offered unqualified support to the embattled candidacy of Roy S. Moore, ignoring the condemnation of national Republican leaders and brushing aside worries that he could lose a Senate race in a solidly conservative state — or be expelled from Congress if he wins.

Invoking the need for guidance from God, a statement from the party’s chairwoman, Terry Lathan, referred only indirectly to the allegations of sexual misconduct and unwanted overtures against women that have upended the Senate race here. Ms. Lathan said the party trusted voters to make the right decision and backed Mr. Moore, a former chief justice of the State Supreme Court, as a conservative supporter of President Trump running against the Democrat, Doug Jones.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/11/16/us/roy-moore-alabama-republicans.html?hp&action=click&pgtype=Homepage&clickSource=story-heading&module=first-column-region&region=top-news&WT.nav=top-news&_r=0


Invoking the need for guidance by God, indeed!

I'm Facebook friends with Terry Lathan from an AOL mailing list way, way back in the day.

Absolutely nothing about the Moore race on her (personal) page, and there were candidate posts when she was supporting Trump.

Interesting.  Especially "trusted voters to make the right decision", which was the phrasing used by Hannity post 24 hour notice, and Trump post one week of silence.
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: DarkandStormy on November 17, 2017, 08:41:44 AM
Interesting.  Especially "trusted voters to make the right decision", which was the phrasing used by Hannity post 24 hour notice, and Trump post one week of silence.[/color]

AKA "We have no spine or moral compass."
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: Cleburger on November 17, 2017, 09:37:55 AM
^there must have been a lot of Al Franken's allies, both in politics and in Hollywood, who surely must have been aware of his behavior over the years, yet they said nothing. By remaining silent for decades--like the Hollywood crowd who said nothing about Harvey Weinstein for many, many years--all of these "good liberals" were, in essence, making excuses for these sleazeballs. Likewise all the "feminists" and liberal "journalists" who ignored Bill Clinton's behavior 25 years ago yet now act holier-than-thou about Roy Moore and Trump. Complete hypocrites.

I'm sorry but I can't equate Bill Clinton, a politician with an electric personality picking up younger "adult women" who were attracted to him, to a sleazeball DA/Judge who preyed on underage girls.   Two COMPLETELY separate subjects.   Bill violated the sanctity of marriage, but probably no laws (related specifically to the act).  Moore committed statutory rape.
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: TBideon on November 17, 2017, 10:17:31 AM
Plenty of women - Juanita Broaddrick, Kathleen Wiley, Leslie Millwee - accused Bill of sexual assault. Of rape. Of violence. This goes way beyond violating the sanctity of marriage. The fact is he's as bad as the Cosbies, the Sanduskies, the Trumps, and the Weinsteins of the world despite our romanticizing his 90s presidency, and thus him.
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: DarkandStormy on November 17, 2017, 10:46:35 AM
https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2017/11/evangelicals-sexual-politics-roy-moore/546089/

Quote
Christian Support for Roy Moore ‘Looks Like Hypocrisy to the Outside World’
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: DarkandStormy on November 17, 2017, 02:42:31 PM
http://www.cleveland.com/open/index.ssf/2017/11/sitting_supreme_court_justice.html

Quote
Sitting Supreme Court Justice Bill O'Neill, responding to Franken allegations, claims bedding 50 women

Quote
" Roy Moore apparently seems to be a challenged individual when it comes to morality," O'Neill said. "I think that's very, very clear. He's been convicted of nothing and he's never had the opportunity to defend himself and that violates due process in America. The media is about to determine the election of a United States Senate campaign."

Ok, Judge.
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: freefourur on November 17, 2017, 02:59:12 PM
^ The "lock her up" crowd didn't seem too interested in due process during the presidential election.
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: KJP on November 17, 2017, 04:41:36 PM
Putting party above humanity...

Gov. Kay Ivey says, “I have no reason to disbelieve any of them” [the women] and yet is going to vote for Moore bc "We need to have a Republican in the United States Senate" to vote for Supreme Court justices #2017
https://twitter.com/DomenicoNPR/status/931612670490443776
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: KJP on November 17, 2017, 09:12:09 PM
If I were Doug Jones, I would spend the rest of my campaign standing in area malls with a sign that says "Because I'm allowed to be here."
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: E Rocc on November 19, 2017, 10:53:44 AM
Putting party above humanity...

Gov. Kay Ivey says, “I have no reason to disbelieve any of them” [the women] and yet is going to vote for Moore bc "We need to have a Republican in the United States Senate" to vote for Supreme Court justices #2017
https://twitter.com/DomenicoNPR/status/931612670490443776

Sheesh, so request the party pull their endorsement of him.
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: E Rocc on November 19, 2017, 10:57:17 AM
I had not heard of this woman until today.  Yeah, that photo is pretty dumb, especially since Franken is at least 2X too old to be staging frat party type inside joke photos, but I'd bet that she was pretty flirty since apparently she is a former Hooter's girl and posed twice in Playboy:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leeann_Tweeden

There is a big difference between pursuing naďve teenage girls and joking around with one who posed in Playboy. 

If she was accusing Moore and his defenders posted this sort of thing, some of you would be FTFO.
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: eastvillagedon on November 19, 2017, 11:07:09 AM
oh, right. I keep forgetting how pure Democrats are. We only have a generation of Clinton voters (for both Bill & Hill) to show us the way. These people aren't humanly capable of possessing shame. It's not in their DNA. Although backtracking slightly, Kirsten Gillibrand has re-thought her position on Bill Clinton--but I guess that's not so hard to do since there are no political consequences for condemning him now :(
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: freefourur on November 19, 2017, 12:52:00 PM
^ Do you ever get bored with your deflections?  I know the rest of us do.
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: KJP on November 19, 2017, 01:39:46 PM
Those who prejudice as a matter of course are incapable of judging others one at a time.
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: taestell on November 19, 2017, 02:10:32 PM
Alabama Republican unintentionally admits that her party cares more about unborn fetuses than actually-born children.
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: KJP on November 19, 2017, 02:13:35 PM
Senate Ethics Committee should investigate why Roger Stone had advance info. Might interest Mueller as well.  https://t.co/T8kzRnsRoD

The Al Franken sexual harassment story was first spun by Fox News & InfoWars, pushed heavily by Russian bots on social media, and Roger Stone knew about said story in advance.

... Meaning Russian intelligence was behind it. https://t.co/QopPzJ6UZM
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: freefourur on November 19, 2017, 02:14:25 PM
Pro-birth is more accurate than pro-life.
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: E Rocc on November 21, 2017, 06:56:12 AM
Senate Ethics Committee should investigate why Roger Stone had advance info. Might interest Mueller as well.  https://t.co/T8kzRnsRoD

The Al Franken sexual harassment story was first spun by Fox News & InfoWars, pushed heavily by Russian bots on social media, and Roger Stone knew about said story in advance.

... Meaning Russian intelligence was behind it. https://t.co/QopPzJ6UZM

Or perhaps LeeAnn discussed with a few people she knew whether or not she was going to go public.

This is ridiculous.   He admitted it happened.
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: freefourur on November 21, 2017, 08:48:00 AM
^ I am not making a judgment on Franken's behavior but he did not "admit it."
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: DarkandStormy on November 21, 2017, 09:20:20 AM
https://www.cincinnati.com/story/news/2017/11/19/ohio-justice-issues-another-apology-over-facebook-post/879337001/

Ohio Justice William O'Neill can't stop saying stupid [edited for language] about Roy Moore, Al Franken, and his previous sexual conquests.
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: surfohio on November 21, 2017, 10:06:26 AM
https://www.cincinnati.com/story/news/2017/11/19/ohio-justice-issues-another-apology-over-facebook-post/879337001/

Ohio Justice William O'Neill can't stop saying stupid shit about Roy Moore, Al Franken, and his previous sexual conquests.

I'm not sure what's worse, Trump never apologizing and holding to his stupid comments. Or this suddenly spineless playboy O'Neill going to church in order to atone for his unprovoked idiocy.

How do we elect these people?
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: freefourur on November 21, 2017, 10:12:42 AM
Quote
How do we elect these people?

People more worried about their team winning than voting for the right person.
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: AJ93 on November 21, 2017, 10:16:23 AM
^ I'd go one further to say that the 'right people' aren't even running. All we have to choose from are 'these people'
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: freefourur on November 21, 2017, 10:29:09 AM
That isn't necessarily the case.  Take a look at the AL Senate race.  There is nothing wrong with Doug Jones.  He is actually the only logical choice in the race.  But people can't fathom not voting for their tribe.
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: TBideon on November 21, 2017, 10:54:24 AM
http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/alabama-pastor-on-roy-moore-allegations-there-are-some-14-year-olds-who-could-pass-for-20/ar-BBFoH8B?li=BBnbfcL

Alabama pastor on Roy Moore allegations: 'There are some 14-year-olds' who 'could pass for 20'

Hey, at least they're honest about their hatred and hypocrisy. God, maybe this country does need a civil war or plague.
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: DarkandStormy on November 21, 2017, 11:52:36 AM
http://thehill.com/homenews/senate/361330-alabama-columnist-roy-moore-first-took-interest-in-his-wife-when-she-was

Moore admits his interest in his now-wife started when she was underage.
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: freefourur on November 21, 2017, 12:04:26 PM
^ But but he wears a cowboy hat and carries a gun.
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: KJP on November 21, 2017, 07:09:18 PM
This is why I am suspicious of her story and that she has now cozied up with Sinclair Broadcasting on a book deal....

The Rest Of The Photos And Videos From Franken And Tweeden’s USO Tour Just Emerged
http://verifiedpolitics.com/rest-photos-videos-franken-tweedens-uso-tour-just-emerged/
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: mu2010 on November 21, 2017, 11:16:49 PM
An unfortunate side effect that has come from the outing of Moore as a sexual predator is that nobody is talking about how absolutely insane his political views are anymore.
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: E Rocc on November 22, 2017, 08:17:51 AM
An unfortunate side effect that has come from the outing of Moore as a sexual predator is that nobody is talking about how absolutely insane his political views are anymore.

Not quite true.   There's some effort to tie his judicial oustings and his creeping together as a Clintonian belief that rules don't apply to him.
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: E Rocc on November 22, 2017, 08:18:59 AM
That isn't necessarily the case.  Take a look at the AL Senate race.  There is nothing wrong with Doug Jones.  He is actually the only logical choice in the race.  But people can't fathom not voting for their tribe.

Trump's correct that he's pretty horrendous on the issues from a GOP perspective.   But note even he won't endorse Moore by name.
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: freefourur on November 22, 2017, 08:39:20 AM
Do you think that Trump's correct that the former prosecutor is weak on crime?
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: AJ93 on November 22, 2017, 08:54:13 AM
That isn't necessarily the case.  Take a look at the AL Senate race.  There is nothing wrong with Doug Jones.  He is actually the only logical choice in the race.  But people can't fathom not voting for their tribe.

Trump's correct that he's pretty horrendous on the issues from a GOP perspective.   But note even he won't endorse Moore by name.

I mean, I guess he didn't actually say 'Roy Moore', but he's endorsed him alright.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/11/21/us/politics/roy-moore-trump-alabama.html?hp&action=click&pgtype=Homepage&clickSource=story-heading&module=first-column-region&region=top-news&WT.nav=top-news&_r=0
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: mu2010 on November 22, 2017, 09:45:27 AM
It's been repeated ad hominem that Trump is amoral and only is concerned with victory, his endorsement of Moore makes perfect sense in this regard and shouldn't surprise anyone.
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: freefourur on November 22, 2017, 09:48:54 AM
Conservatives:   let's vote for the child molester who will vote to prevent people from using bathrooms to protect children from being molested.  Let me know if I got that right
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: KJP on November 22, 2017, 09:56:56 AM
Would you still consider voting for a candidate accused of sexual harassment by multiple women? (via new @QuinnipiacPoll)

Democrats
Yes 12%
No 81%

Republicans
Yes 43%
No 41%
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: KJP on November 22, 2017, 09:57:29 AM
A child is sexually assaulted every 8 minutes in America.

Today, every single one of them heard their president say: "I don't believe you — and even if I do believe you, I don't care."
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: surfohio on November 22, 2017, 09:58:07 AM
Conservatives:   let's vote for the child molester who will vote to prevent people from using bathrooms to protect children from being mlested.  Let me know if I got that right

Don't be so close minded. Maybe the good people of Alabama just realize the easiest way to get rid of this molester is to send him to D.C.
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: freefourur on November 22, 2017, 09:59:57 AM
^ My bad.  My cosmopolitan bias is showing, I guess.
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: Ram23 on November 22, 2017, 11:31:58 AM
Would you still consider voting for a candidate accused of sexual harassment by multiple women? (via new @QuinnipiacPoll)

Democrats
Yes 12%
No 81%

Republicans
Yes 43%
No 41%

I would never pass judgement on someone because of accusations alone. It's alarming to me how low the burden of proof seems to be for Democrats. Maybe there's something more to that mentality, in general - that would be interesting research.  There's also a lot of hypocrisy there - though we'll have to wait a few years to see if someone like Franken (if he hasn't resigned by then) tries to run for reelection.
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: freefourur on November 22, 2017, 11:35:56 AM
^ But lock her up amiright?
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: KJP on November 22, 2017, 02:57:30 PM
"Family values" Republican Joe Barton apologizes for graphic nude photo that circulated online this week showing him with a woman who was neither his first nor second wife https://t.co/TQjoFwjbsh
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: Brutus_buckeye on November 22, 2017, 03:18:04 PM
Democrat or Republican. No one can claim the moral high ground
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: KJP on November 28, 2017, 07:30:12 AM
This story illustrates how desperately the right wants to make fake news a reality...

A botched sting with a phony Roy Moore ‘accuser’ was supposed to discredit the media. Like similar schemes, it did the opposite.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2017/11/27/a-botched-sting-with-a-phony-roy-moore-accuser-was-supposed-to-discredit-the-media-like-similar-schemes-it-did-the-opposite/?tid=sm_fb&utm_term=.c83d4d7ac11b
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: Stormy Daytons on November 29, 2017, 04:17:26 PM
(http://www.clevelandskyscrapers.com/uowatched.jpg)

And let me repeat the guidelines again...

From hence forth, ANYONE that exhibits trolling behavior, loves to bicker without a point, or threatens anyone will be in for a SWIFT suspension.  Our suspension policy for the Currents Events section is as follows:

1st Suspension: 2 weeks
2nd Suspension: 2 months
3rd Suspension: 2 years

K Thx Bye
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: DarkandStormy on November 29, 2017, 04:37:57 PM
http://thehill.com/campaign-polls/362305-poll-roy-moore-up-5-points-on-dem-opponent

Alabamans apparently don't believe the women coming forward or don't care.  New poll shows Moore up 5 points over Doug Jones.

https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/roy-moore-george-soros-sexual-misconduct_us_5a1df35de4b0d724fed4748d

Quote
Roy Moore Backers Say George Soros Is Paying Women To Lie About Him
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: smith on November 29, 2017, 04:55:20 PM
^ Has anyone EVER provided VERIFIABLE evidence that George Soros has funded all of these things he has supposedly funded?  i.e. protesters, accusers, etc.?
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: freefourur on November 29, 2017, 08:29:09 PM
^ Has anyone EVER provided VERIFIABLE evidence that George Soros has funded all of these things he has supposedly funded?  i.e. protesters, accusers, etc.?

Is there ever any proof of Republican conspiracy theories?
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: KJP on November 30, 2017, 08:30:30 AM
I know there are a lot of insane stories flying around today but, my jaw dropped at this.

Roy Moore didn't think women should be allowed to run for office. https://t.co/ztgnYuzWmX
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: freefourur on November 30, 2017, 08:39:51 AM
^ tell me more about this Sharia Law thing that I am supposed to be afraid of.
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: DarkandStormy on November 30, 2017, 09:14:55 AM
And yet...he's still going to get some 40% of the vote in Alabama (at least) unless an even worse bombshell breaks before the election.

https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/why-is-roy-moore-back-in-front-time-and-trump-are-probably-helping/

Basically, voters (in the polls taken, at least) got spooked for about 7-8 days and now either don't believe the allegations or don't care enough to vote for someone else.
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: Ram23 on November 30, 2017, 09:19:32 AM
^ Has anyone EVER provided VERIFIABLE evidence that George Soros has funded all of these things he has supposedly funded?  i.e. protesters, accusers, etc.?

Soros founded the Open Society Foundation, which provides funding to social justice groups that are involved in organizing (frequently violent) protests. He's not in a back room plotting the chaos (at least, there's no evidence of that yet) but his group and millions of his dollars find there way to protests. Here's a Snopes article on the Ferguson riots, for example:

https://www.snopes.com/politics/business/sorosferguson.asp

In all, Mr. Soros gave at least $33 million in one year to support already-established groups that emboldened the grass-roots, on-the-ground activists in Ferguson, according to the most recent tax filings of his nonprofit Open Society Foundations.

The financial tether from Mr. Soros to the activist groups gave rise to a combustible protest movement that transformed a one-day criminal event in Missouri into a 24-hour-a-day national cause celebre.

Soros-sponsored organizations helped mobilize protests in Ferguson, building grass-roots coalitions on the ground backed by a nationwide online and social media campaign.
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: freefourur on November 30, 2017, 09:20:00 AM
^ the people of Alabama are deciding that fetuses are much more important the living breathing teenage girls. 
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: freefourur on November 30, 2017, 09:23:28 AM
^ Has anyone EVER provided VERIFIABLE evidence that George Soros has funded all of these things he has supposedly funded?  i.e. protesters, accusers, etc.?

Soros founded the Open Society Foundation, which provides funding to social justice groups that are involved in organizing (frequently violent) protests. He's not in a back room plotting the chaos (at least, there's no evidence of that yet) but his group and millions of his dollars find there way to protests. Here's a Snopes article on the Ferguson riots, for example:

https://www.snopes.com/politics/business/sorosferguson.asp

In all, Mr. Soros gave at least $33 million in one year to support already-established groups that emboldened the grass-roots, on-the-ground activists in Ferguson, according to the most recent tax filings of his nonprofit Open Society Foundations.

The financial tether from Mr. Soros to the activist groups gave rise to a combustible protest movement that transformed a one-day criminal event in Missouri into a 24-hour-a-day national cause celebre.

Soros-sponsored organizations helped mobilize protests in Ferguson, building grass-roots coalitions on the ground backed by a nationwide online and social media campaign.


LOL.  That's all you got.
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: smith on November 30, 2017, 09:23:40 AM
^ Has anyone EVER provided VERIFIABLE evidence that George Soros has funded all of these things he has supposedly funded?  i.e. protesters, accusers, etc.?

Soros founded the Open Society Foundation, which provides funding to social justice groups that are involved in organizing (frequently violent) protests. He's not in a back room plotting the chaos (at least, there's no evidence of that yet) but his group and millions of his dollars find there way to protests. Here's a Snopes article on the Ferguson riots, for example:

https://www.snopes.com/politics/business/sorosferguson.asp

In all, Mr. Soros gave at least $33 million in one year to support already-established groups that emboldened the grass-roots, on-the-ground activists in Ferguson, according to the most recent tax filings of his nonprofit Open Society Foundations.

The financial tether from Mr. Soros to the activist groups gave rise to a combustible protest movement that transformed a one-day criminal event in Missouri into a 24-hour-a-day national cause celebre.

Soros-sponsored organizations helped mobilize protests in Ferguson, building grass-roots coalitions on the ground backed by a nationwide online and social media campaign.


"WHAT'S TRUE
A grantmaking network founded by George Soros provided funding to some groups that engaged in Ferguson-related protest activities.

WHAT'S FALSE
George Soros gave money to various groups for the express purpose of promoting Ferguson-related protests and riots."

God forbid he gives money to activist groups.  He should ONLY give money to SuperPacs and lobbyists that funnel money to political campaigns so that the politicians will be beholden to him. 

Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: DarkandStormy on November 30, 2017, 09:50:44 AM
https://www.buzzfeed.com/briannasacks/roy-moore-just-blamed-the-lgbt-community-for-the-sexual?utm_term=.dpe467lbQ#.kqqzkDA8Y

Roy Moore Just Blamed His Sexual Misconduct Allegations On Lesbians, Gays, And Socialists

Quote
During his sermon-like speech Wednesday night, Moore again dismissed the women's claims as "false and malicious," blaming the raft of stories about his alleged misconduct on a "conspiracy" cooked up by "Democrats pushing a liberal agenda" who have "tried unsuccessfully" to ruin his campaign.

"When I say they who are 'they?'" he told the clapping congregation. "They’re liberals. They don’t hold conservative values. They are the lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender who want to change our culture. They are socialists who want to change our way of life and put man above God and the government is our God. They're the Washington establishment...who don't want to lose their power."

This guy is insane.  You get to own him, Republicans.
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: mu2010 on November 30, 2017, 10:09:49 AM
Roy Moore's crazy views have been forgotten in all this.
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: DarkandStormy on November 30, 2017, 10:28:02 AM
Quote
They're the Washington establishment...who don't want to lose their power."

What party has complete control of Washington right now?
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: Gramarye on November 30, 2017, 11:40:40 AM
Quote
They're the Washington establishment...who don't want to lose their power."

What party has complete control of Washington right now?

Does any?
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: freefourur on November 30, 2017, 11:43:53 AM
The Republican Party has complete control of Washington.  Whether they can effectively control anything has not yet been proven. 
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: Gramarye on November 30, 2017, 11:56:36 AM
The Republican Party has majorities in the House and the Senate and there is a Republican administration in the White House.

If you think that that is the sum and total of "Washington," then perhaps you can say that the Republican Party has complete control of Washington.

Is that the sum and total of "Washington?"

(Even then, it's an open question of whether they have complete control of the Senate, given the party discipline issues that have prevented them from actually securing majority votes.)
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: freefourur on November 30, 2017, 01:34:37 PM
Birds - Feather something something:

Minister who sang for Roy Moore lied for son accused of molesting Honduran orphans

http://www.al.com/news/mobile/index.ssf/2017/11/minister_convicted_of_obstruct.html#incart_river_home
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: DarkandStormy on December 01, 2017, 10:56:40 AM
https://www.yahoo.com/news/paul-ryan-struggles-explain-why-130611194.html

Quote
Calling the outpouring of sexual misconduct allegations against power men a “watershed moment in this country,” Ryan said that Congress should “set high standards for ourselves so that we can be role models and set examples.”

He then spoke his decision to call on Alabama Senate candidate Roy Moore to bow out of the race. Moore has been accused of sexual harassment and assault by multiple women, including some who said they were teenagers at the time.

“I believe those allegations are credible,” Ryan told NPR in an interview that aired Friday. But when asked whether that standard applied to President Donald Trump― who has been accused of sexual harassment by more than a dozen women and was infamously caught on tape bragging about groping― Ryan balked.

“I think the Roy Moore — I don’t know if — I’m focused on Congress,” Ryan said. “Roy Moore is trying to come to Congress. My job here as Speaker of the House is to help make sure that Congress is an institution that we’re proud of and that’s what I’m focused on. He’s running for Congress and I think the allegations against him were very very credible.”

Grow a spine, Paul Ryan.
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: mu2010 on December 01, 2017, 11:12:57 AM
LOL so pathetic.
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: DarkandStormy on December 01, 2017, 11:44:44 AM
http://www.esquire.com/news-politics/a13994613/ted-cruz-roy-moore-al-franken/

Quote
FOX NEWS HOST TO @tedcruz: You cool working with alleged child molester Roy Moore if he's elected?

CRUZ: Sure, no problem, that's up to the voters.

FOX NEWS HOST: And what about alleged groper Al Franken?

CRUZ: Now that's a very serious problem. I'm extremely concerned.

You can't parody these people, they're so freaking stupid.
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: TBideon on December 01, 2017, 04:48:45 PM
Not stupid.

Malicious. Evil. Dangerous.

Their supporters and enablers on the other hand are as dumb as rocks.
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: KJP on December 03, 2017, 10:37:33 PM
Q: What does a politician have to do to lose the white evangelical vote?

A: Do what Jesus did.
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: DarkandStormy on December 04, 2017, 09:14:13 AM
https://www.yahoo.com/news/trump-endorses-roy-moore-need-vote-124014388.html

Trump endorses Roy Moore
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: TBideon on December 04, 2017, 09:14:51 AM
Molesters have to stick together.
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: freefourur on December 04, 2017, 09:15:34 AM
^ Thus proving that the GOP cares nothing about their rhetoric about family values, fiscal responsibility, or personal responsibility.  But those of us with IQs higher than room temperature knew this already.
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: Ram23 on December 04, 2017, 09:28:24 AM
What's really telling is that the Democratic party is such a disaster and has such a terrible image that despite the allegations against Moore, he's probably still going to beat his Democrat opponent. It says a lot about how most Americans perceive the DNC. This election might well be a very good example of just how badly the DNC will do in 2018. If Moore wins, it does not bode well for sitting Democratic Senators in red states. If he can pull off a victory despite the barrage of bad news about him, other Republican Senate candidates will be shoo-ins.
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: freefourur on December 04, 2017, 09:30:34 AM
^ Ram, I think you've actually done a good job of the describing the people of Alabama and GOP voters more than anything. 
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: YABO713 on December 04, 2017, 09:46:43 AM
What's really telling is that the Democratic party is such a disaster and has such a terrible image that despite the allegations against Moore, he's probably still going to beat his Democrat opponent. It says a lot about how most Americans perceive the DNC. This election might well be a very good example of just how badly the DNC will do in 2018. If Moore wins, it does not bode well for sitting Democratic Senators in red states. If he can pull off a victory despite the barrage of bad news about him, other Republican Senate candidates will be shoo-ins.

I disagree, Ram. I think Alabama is such a unique state in America -- see: George Wallace on the steps. The GOP has hitched its wagon to Moore whether they like it or not. That does not bode well for sitting GOP Senators in OH, PA, MI, ME, AZ, NE, and CO. Presumably, Deb Fischer, Dean Heller especially will face staunch Dem opposition. I think the only Dem Senator in any trouble may be Manchin in WV, but he's still very popular there despite the state's staunch Trump following. 
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: freefourur on December 04, 2017, 09:49:53 AM
^ An analysis has shown that if Alabama were even slightly less red (think South Carolina, Texas) Jones would easily win this race.  The GOP's problem with Moore won't end when Moore is seated in the Senate. The problems will just begin.  Look for Dems to pin the entire GOP to Moore's dumb statements he will make while in the Senate. 
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: YABO713 on December 04, 2017, 09:52:44 AM
^ An analysis has shown that if Alabama were even slightly less red (think South Carolina, Texas) Jones would easily win this race.  The GOP's problem with Moore won't end when Moore is seated in the Senate. The problems will just begin.  Look for Dems to pin the entire GOP to Moore's dumb statements he will make while in the Senate. 

Right. And Ram, your critique of the Dems certainly has some merit.
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: DarkandStormy on December 04, 2017, 11:27:10 AM
What's really telling is that the Democratic party is such a disaster and has such a terrible image that despite the allegations against Moore, he's probably still going to beat his Democrat opponent. It says a lot about how most Americans perceive the DNC. This election might well be a very good example of just how badly the DNC will do in 2018. If Moore wins, it does not bode well for sitting Democratic Senators in red states. If he can pull off a victory despite the barrage of bad news about him, other Republican Senate candidates will be shoo-ins.

I disagree, Ram. I think Alabama is such a unique state in America -- see: George Wallace on the steps. The GOP has hitched its wagon to Moore whether they like it or not. That does not bode well for sitting GOP Senators in OH, PA, MI, ME, AZ, NE, and CO. Presumably, Deb Fischer, Dean Heller especially will face staunch Dem opposition. I think the only Dem Senator in any trouble may be Manchin in WV, but he's still very popular there despite the state's staunch Trump following. 

Portman is up in 2022, Brown in 2018.  So I doubt Portman faces this backlash by then - the political landscape will be much different in 5 years.
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: mu2010 on December 04, 2017, 11:28:31 AM
I am skeptical of this whole "Roy Moore being hung around the neck of every Republican" thing. I don't know if Democrats are savvy enough to pull it off. Trump could do it.
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: freefourur on December 04, 2017, 12:36:36 PM
I am skeptical of this whole "Roy Moore being hung around the neck of every Republican" thing. I don't know if Democrats are savvy enough to pull it off. Trump could do it.

This just goes to the blind loyalty of GOP voters IMHO.  They will not hold their own accountable because winning is the only thing that matters.
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: Ram23 on December 04, 2017, 01:11:53 PM
^ You really think that, if the tides were turned, Democrat voters wouldn't support their candidate over a Trump supporting GOPer? Ted Kennedy murdered a woman and got elected to the Senate over and over again for 40+ years. Party loyalty in spite of candidates' often poor personal life choices is not new, and it's not limited to one side of the political spectrum. Plenty of people would rather vote for the jerk they agree with politically, than the nice guy they disagree with.
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: X on December 04, 2017, 01:18:47 PM
Ted Kennedy didn't "murder" anyone.  And at any rate, why are you trying to switch the conversation from Roy Moore? 

Is it because the best way to defend a pedophile is to talk about something else? 

Do you think it's OK to put a pedophile in office, Ram?
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: Cleburger on December 04, 2017, 01:20:42 PM
^ You really think that, if the tides were turned, Democrat voters wouldn't support their candidate over a Trump supporting GOPer? Ted Kennedy murdered a woman and got elected to the Senate over and over again for 40+ years. Party loyalty in spite of candidates' often poor personal life choices is not new, and it's not limited to one side of the political spectrum. Plenty of people would rather vote for the jerk they agree with politically, than the nice guy they disagree with.

Maybe we should have kept Ted Kennedy off one lane bridges, just like Roy Moore was kept out of shopping malls....
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: freefourur on December 04, 2017, 01:26:39 PM
Roy Moore's problems are bigger than just being a pedophile.   As a judge he had no regard for the constitution because he feels he is above the law.  Tie in his fraudulent foundation,  which we know used to be huge issue for the GOP.  There is no rational reason to choose Moore over Jones
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: TBideon on December 04, 2017, 01:45:28 PM
In all fairness there is evidence that the girl was still alive when Kennedy fled, and she drowned afterwards. He definitely killed her. Probably legally too.
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: Gramarye on December 04, 2017, 01:47:43 PM
What's really telling is that the Democratic party is such a disaster and has such a terrible image that despite the allegations against Moore, he's probably still going to beat his Democrat opponent. It says a lot about how most Americans perceive the DNC. This election might well be a very good example of just how badly the DNC will do in 2018. If Moore wins, it does not bode well for sitting Democratic Senators in red states. If he can pull off a victory despite the barrage of bad news about him, other Republican Senate candidates will be shoo-ins.

I disagree, Ram. I think Alabama is such a unique state in America -- see: George Wallace on the steps. The GOP has hitched its wagon to Moore whether they like it or not. That does not bode well for sitting GOP Senators in OH, PA, MI, ME, AZ, NE, and CO. Presumably, Deb Fischer, Dean Heller especially will face staunch Dem opposition. I think the only Dem Senator in any trouble may be Manchin in WV, but he's still very popular there despite the state's staunch Trump following. 

The Alabama GOP certainly has hitched its wagon to Moore.  That doesn't mean that the national GOP has to.

On the issue of Moore's Democratic opponent, I'm actually betting some national Democrats wish they could switch candidates as much as some national Republicans probably do.  More, actually, since the Republicans still appear likely to win the seat, regardless of the broader reputational cost.

This is actually a testament to the dynamics of recruitment in "safe" seats.  Waging a political campaign is exhausting work and doubly so when it's basically a fool's errand.  Therefore, you tend to get vanity candidates or thinly-vetted ones as the almost-sure-to-lose nominees in safe districts for the other side, especially when those candidates are largely going to take positions that are closer to those of the national thought leaders of that party.  It helps with national message unity, while costing little in the real world when the seats are not really winnable anyway.

Thus, the Alabama Democrats picked a pro-abortion hardliner who would probably be reasonably at home in Rhode Island.

If they had a centrist Democrat in the wings like Ted Strickland, or Heath Mello (the pro-life Omaha mayoral candidate that Bernie Sanders supported in the name of growing the Democratic tent), they'd likely be in a much better position to pick up this seat.  But even if there is such a person in Alabama, the candidates had already been declared by the time the revelations against Moore became public.  The whole process was already quite far along.
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: E Rocc on December 04, 2017, 01:57:24 PM
^ Thus proving that the GOP cares nothing about their rhetoric about family values, fiscal responsibility, or personal responsibility. But those of us with IQs higher than room temperature knew this already.

Is this the direction the board is going?
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: freefourur on December 04, 2017, 01:59:32 PM
What's really telling is that the Democratic party is such a disaster and has such a terrible image that despite the allegations against Moore, he's probably still going to beat his Democrat opponent. It says a lot about how most Americans perceive the DNC. This election might well be a very good example of just how badly the DNC will do in 2018. If Moore wins, it does not bode well for sitting Democratic Senators in red states. If he can pull off a victory despite the barrage of bad news about him, other Republican Senate candidates will be shoo-ins.

I disagree, Ram. I think Alabama is such a unique state in America -- see: George Wallace on the steps. The GOP has hitched its wagon to Moore whether they like it or not. That does not bode well for sitting GOP Senators in OH, PA, MI, ME, AZ, NE, and CO. Presumably, Deb Fischer, Dean Heller especially will face staunch Dem opposition. I think the only Dem Senator in any trouble may be Manchin in WV, but he's still very popular there despite the state's staunch Trump following. 

The Alabama GOP certainly has hitched its wagon to Moore.  That doesn't mean that the national GOP has to.

On the issue of Moore's Democratic opponent, I'm actually betting some national Democrats wish they could switch candidates as much as some national Republicans probably do.  More, actually, since the Republicans still appear likely to win the seat, regardless of the broader reputational cost.

This is actually a testament to the dynamics of recruitment in "safe" seats.  Waging a political campaign is exhausting work and doubly so when it's basically a fool's errand.  Therefore, you tend to get vanity candidates or thinly-vetted ones as the almost-sure-to-lose nominees in safe districts for the other side, especially when those candidates are largely going to take positions that are closer to those of the national thought leaders of that party.  It helps with national message unity, while costing little in the real world when the seats are not really winnable anyway.

Thus, the Alabama Democrats picked a pro-abortion hardliner who would probably be reasonably at home in Rhode Island.

If they had a centrist Democrat in the wings like Ted Strickland, or Heath Mello (the pro-life Omaha mayoral candidate that Bernie Sanders supported in the name of growing the Democratic tent), they'd likely be in a much better position to pick up this seat.  But even if there is such a person in Alabama, the candidates had already been declared by the time the revelations against Moore became public.  The whole process was already quite far along.

Pro-abortion is a misnomer.
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: Gramarye on December 04, 2017, 02:06:24 PM
Semantics.  He supports the right to abortion until birth, possibly even including the right to abort mid-birth (partial-birth abortion).
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: freefourur on December 04, 2017, 02:08:46 PM
^ You are purposely misidentifying what a parital-birth abortion (also a misnomer) is.
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: Gramarye on December 04, 2017, 02:13:54 PM
But those of us with IQs higher than room temperature knew this already.

Also, while I fully understand that this is among the more controversial topics on these forums (for good reason), this statement does get a little close to direct insults of other board members (though I get that the statement could also be read more generally).  Steer clear.
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: Gramarye on December 04, 2017, 02:15:59 PM
^ You are purposely misidentifying what a parital-birth abortion (also a misnomer) is.

I'm really not.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intact_dilation_and_extraction

"In the U.S., a federal statute defines "partial-birth abortion" as any abortion in which the life of the fetus is terminated after having been extracted from the mother's body to a point "past the navel [of the fetus]" or "in the case of head-first presentation, the entire fetal head is outside the body of the mother" at the time the life is terminated."
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: freefourur on December 04, 2017, 02:17:46 PM
There is no medical term known as partial birth abortion.  And you original post misidentifies the procedure.

But the inaccuracies started before Trump even responded: Wallace’s question was problematic right out of the gate because of the term he used. “Partial birth” is a political, not medical, term, and it does not refer to all late-term abortions. It refers to a very specific and rare procedure called dilation and extraction*, in which a fetus is partially pulled through the birth canal and then aborted, nearly always when the fetus cannot live outside the womb and typically when the mother’s health is in danger, the fetus has a serious abnormality, or both. Such a procedure is not conducted lightly: the fetus has a fatal defect and will not survive, or the mother is at risk of death herself.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/tarahaelle/2016/10/20/no-late-term-abortions-dont-rip-babies-out-of-wombs-but-they-are-needed/#23892cf5cf8e

Is the pro-life argument here that the government should dictate to the medical community and women what is best for them?
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: surfohio on December 04, 2017, 02:25:14 PM
Is the pro-life argument here that the government should dictate to the medical community and women what is best for them?

The medical community isn't all powerful. It's subject to all kinds of ethical guidelines.
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: Gramarye on December 04, 2017, 02:26:06 PM
There is no medical term known as partial birth abortion.  And you original post misidentifies the procedure.

There is a federal legal term known as partial birth abortion.  My Wikipedia link describes exactly what it is, and despite your dissembling, I think you know exactly what it is, so you continue to hide behind semantics.  The procedure forbidden by the law involves the killing of a fetus when part of that fetus is outside its mother's body.  Doug Jones is apparently an abortion-rights absolutist who would legalize abortion across the board, potentially including that procedure.  Do you deny that?

EDIT: I see you modified your post after I replied, or while I was. 

Quote
Is the pro-life argument here that the government should dictate to the medical community and women what is best for them?

The pro-life argument is that life begins at conception, and therefore all medical decisions made when a child has been conceived need to include the interests of the child, not merely the interests of the mother.  Those interests include, first and foremost, not dying (particularly not intentionally at the hand of another).  Pro-choice advocates always dodge this point, when it is really the only one that matters.  You talk about "the medically community" and "reproductive freedom" and all kinds of other things that are quite frankly orthogonal to the decisive issue.  When does life begin?

If conception does not make a child, then no justification for abortion is necessary.

If it does, then no justification is adequate.
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: freefourur on December 04, 2017, 02:27:09 PM
^ I agree but those guidelines should come from within the medical community and not from DC.
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: taestell on December 04, 2017, 02:29:11 PM
If you guys want to talk about abortion, there's a separate thread for that.
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: freefourur on December 04, 2017, 02:31:32 PM
There is no medical term known as partial birth abortion.  And you original post misidentifies the procedure.

There is a federal legal term known as partial birth abortion.  My Wikipedia link describes exactly what it is, and despite your dissembling, I think you know exactly what it is, so you continue to hide behind semantics.  The procedure forbidden by the law involves the killing of a fetus when part of that fetus is outside its mother's body.  Doug Jones is apparently an abortion-rights absolutist who would legalize abortion across the board, potentially including that procedure.  Do you deny that?

The semantics here are describing a birth happening and then killing a healthy baby which is not happening in a D & E.  This procedure generally includes a fetus which has sever deformity or defect with no chance of survival.  I had friends that went through this procedure that you flippantly want to refer to s killing their baby.  It was a heartbreaking experience for them to say the least.  So yes, I am an abortion absolutist because these heartbreaking decision should be made by doctors and mothers and not by DC politicians that make up scary names for a medical procedure.
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: Gramarye on December 04, 2017, 02:34:17 PM
tastell: Agreed, and we did digress too far.  That said, a brief trip down that path was not a digression here.  It is a huge reason that Moore is likely to win, and probably even a reason why Alabamans are willing to go to such lengths in their own minds to disbelieve the allegations against Moore.

I strongly believe that a pro-life, pro-border Democrat would be winning against Moore right now, even if they were generally liberal on other issues such as taxes, Obamacare, or even guns.
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: surfohio on December 04, 2017, 02:46:30 PM
We as a country can't seem to have any political discussion beyond ten second talking points. Beyond these talking points is where things get interesting. Here it seems like Doug Jones is navigating a minefield making both blanket and contradictory statements.

http://www.al.com/news/huntsville/index.ssf/2017/11/doug_jones_speaks_on_abortion.html
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: eastvillagedon on December 04, 2017, 03:06:44 PM
Semantics.  He supports the right to abortion until birth, possibly even including the right to abort mid-birth (partial-birth abortion).

well, no, Gramarye, let's give credit to freefourur. It's always correct to call a medically-related condition or procedure by its proper, scientific name. I'm certain that when he gets a common cold he calls it by its correct name--acute viral rhinopharyngitis, or acute coryza. To clear up any confusion we should all strive for this kind of accuracy.
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: freefourur on December 04, 2017, 03:14:38 PM
Semantics.  He supports the right to abortion until birth, possibly even including the right to abort mid-birth (partial-birth abortion).

well, no, Gramarye, let's give credit to freefourur. It's always correct to call a medically-related condition or procedure by its proper, scientific name. I'm certain that when he gets a common cold he calls it by its correct name--acute viral rhinopharyngitis, or acute coryza. To clear up any confusion we should all strive for this kind of accuracy.

Wong - common cold is an accepted medical term unlike partial birth abortion which is a political term of nonsensical meaning.
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: freefourur on December 04, 2017, 03:19:52 PM
^ Thus proving that the GOP cares nothing about their rhetoric about family values, fiscal responsibility, or personal responsibility. But those of us with IQs higher than room temperature knew this already.

Is this the direction the board is going?

This is the direction our national politics is going.  I'll stand by my comment that if you defend a child molester I have to question your brain function.
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: DarkandStormy on December 04, 2017, 03:42:30 PM
I like how all these "right to lifers" come jumping to Moore's defense about "sanctity of life."  The irony of supporting Moore because he believes no fetus should be aborted, yet that man preyed on underage girls and likely ruined some of their lives...they just don't get it.

What about Muslim lives?  Or gay lives?  He doesn't believe Muslims should serve in the U.S. Senate and that gay people should be locked up simply for being gay.

This "right to life" is BS because they're overlooking how inexplicably bad Moore is for people who are living in this country.
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: Gramarye on December 04, 2017, 03:59:45 PM
You have to understand that for those on the pro-life side of the issue, very frequently, they see this right up there with issues of nuclear war.  They see that 60 million fetuses--children--have been aborted since Roe v. Wade was decided (and while some of them might not have been viable, the vast majority were not aborted due to inviability) and yes, that trumps nearly all other potential internal or external threats.  That's why I said above that I think that it explains a significant portion of the solidarity with Moore, and the strength of the cognitive dissonance that makes people discount the allegations against him to rally behind him.  No other issue, not guns, not immigration, certainly not taxes or regulations, operates on quite that visceral a level to the Republican base (particularly to the religious right, which is the lion's share of the base in Alabama).

Moore should not be winning this.  He absolutely does not deserve to be one of the 100 most powerful lawmakers on the planet.  (Though I'll say that I'd rather see him in the legislature than the judiciary, considering his record there.)  But in the eyes of many Alabamans who will vote for him, it really is, in their minds, a choice between (1) a man who may decades ago have been a child molester and (2) a man who will be complicit, going forward, in mass child murder.  I can already hear the keyboards clacking venting about how hyperbolic that is.  But this is one of those things where if you're not pro-life yourself, it is extremely difficult to put yourself in the shoes of someone who is.
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: eastvillagedon on December 04, 2017, 04:16:34 PM
^If every voter in America did not engage in cognitive dissonance to at least some degree when choosing a candidate, no one would ever vote! Quoting Sarah Huckabee Sanders from a New York Times story: “Oftentimes, people want to make politicians perfect,” she added. “I certainly didn’t approve of a couple of the comments,” Ms. Sanders said of her time on Mr. Trump’s campaign, where she served as an adviser and on-air surrogate. “But at the same time, we were looking for a commander in chief, not a pastor.”“And that’s one of the actual beauties of Christianity, is understanding that no one is.” -- Well said.


Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: Cleburger on December 04, 2017, 05:17:56 PM
I love the new Roy Moore defense I'm seeing by Trumpkins on Twitter:

"Well Roy Moore was a Democrat back when he did those things so he's fine now...."

WTF? 
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: YABO713 on December 04, 2017, 05:19:39 PM
BUT WHATABOUT EMARGHERED BENGHAZURANIUM
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: 327 on December 04, 2017, 07:13:04 PM
You have to understand that for those on the pro-life side of the issue, very frequently, they see this right up there with issues of nuclear war.  They see that 60 million fetuses--children--have been aborted since Roe v. Wade was decided (and while some of them might not have been viable, the vast majority were not aborted due to inviability) and yes, that trumps nearly all other potential internal or external threats.  That's why I said above that I think that it explains a significant portion of the solidarity with Moore, and the strength of the cognitive dissonance that makes people discount the allegations against him to rally behind him.  No other issue, not guns, not immigration, certainly not taxes or regulations, operates on quite that visceral a level to the Republican base (particularly to the religious right, which is the lion's share of the base in Alabama).

Moore should not be winning this.  He absolutely does not deserve to be one of the 100 most powerful lawmakers on the planet.  (Though I'll say that I'd rather see him in the legislature than the judiciary, considering his record there.)  But in the eyes of many Alabamans who will vote for him, it really is, in their minds, a choice between (1) a man who may decades ago have been a child molester and (2) a man who will be complicit, going forward, in mass child murder.  I can already hear the keyboards clacking venting about how hyperbolic that is.  But this is one of those things where if you're not pro-life yourself, it is extremely difficult to put yourself in the shoes of someone who is.

I have friends who are otherwise liberal but abortion decides their votes every time.  It's such a powerful wedge issue that it may have handed us the current Republican majorities.  And a lot of the immigrant voters Democrats are counting on also happen to be anti-abortion.  So don't count those chickens quite yet.
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: edale on December 04, 2017, 07:43:42 PM
It'd be a lot easier to reconcile the opinions of pro-lifers if they were consistently compassionate towards the needs of children and families. Most of them, however, only care about getting the baby born, and couldn't give two shits what happens to it after that. Somehow, child rape is OK to these people who supposedly stand for the rights of children. It's a crock of shit.

The conservative christian movement is full of hypocrisy like that. They simply pick the sins they care about, and forget the rest. Gay marriage = the end of traditional values as we know it, but divorce and sexual assault is A ok! They claim to resist a large, domineering government, but then are allll for big government when it comes to the war on drugs, women's health, LGBT rights. I genuinely don't get it. How can these people be so insecure in their values and morals? Don't like weed? Don't smoke it! Don't like abortion? Don't have one! Don't like gay marriage? Pray your kids don't turn out to be gay, I guess, and leave everyone else the hell alone. Why are these people so intent on shoving their beliefs onto other people? Believe what you want to believe and let me believe what I want to. If you think I'm going to hell for being OK with gay marriage or reproductive choice, cool- let me burn. Why's it matter to them?

I'm so sick of politics in this country.
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: surfohio on December 05, 2017, 12:22:34 AM
It'd be a lot easier to reconcile the opinions of pro-lifers if they were consistently compassionate towards the needs of children and families. Most of them, however, only care about getting the baby born, and couldn't give two shits what happens to it after that.

Pro-lifers, as you probably define them are at best, less than half the country. It wasn't pro-lifers that put the Idiot-in-chief into office, it was former Obama voters. You're painting with a very broad brush and missing out on what's going on politically.   
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: edale on December 05, 2017, 01:52:45 AM
^ No, I’m talking about dumbass “Christians” in Alabama who are most likely going to vote a pesophile into the Senate. Wth are you talking about?
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: 327 on December 05, 2017, 08:26:16 AM
^ No, I’m talking about dumbass “Christians” in Alabama who are most likely going to vote a pesophile into the Senate. Wth are you talking about?

They probably view Moore's exploits along a broader spectrum than abortion, which is more either/or.  I agree with you that it's crazy to oppose abortion and then not support children once they're born.  And I agree with Surfohio that it wasn't Alabama who gave us Trump.  But they might give us Roy Moore.  Funny, their savior did not appreciate businesses exploiting the faith for a quick buck, but that's what Republicans seem to be doing these days.
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: YABO713 on December 05, 2017, 08:42:05 AM
https://twitter.com/TomMoranCLE/status/938019097245306880
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: surfohio on December 05, 2017, 09:03:18 AM
^ No, I’m talking about dumbass “Christians” in Alabama who are most likely going to vote a pesophile into the Senate. Wth are you talking about?

You should re-read your post. You made a huge blanket statement.
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: DarkandStormy on December 05, 2017, 10:25:48 AM
https://www.thedailybeast.com/the-rnc-resumes-funding-roy-moore

20 days.  That's all it took for the GOP to flip from caring about not electing an alleged child molester to donating to said alleged child molester.  20 days of faux values from the GOP.

Quote
The Republican National Committee is jumping back into the Alabama U.S. Senate election on behalf of Roy Moore, an RNC official confirmed to The Daily Beast. The news was first reported by Breitbart. The decision by the committee to put money and staff behind the Moore campaign comes hours after President Donald Trump formally endorsed the Senate candidate, who has been accused by multiple women of having sexually preyed on them when they were teenagers.
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: freefourur on December 05, 2017, 10:28:46 AM
^ They are no longer the party of family values.  They never actually were anyway.
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: Gramarye on December 05, 2017, 11:28:48 AM
It'd be a lot easier to reconcile the opinions of pro-lifers if they were consistently compassionate towards the needs of children and families. Most of them, however, only care about getting the baby born, and couldn't give two shits what happens to it after that. Somehow, child rape is OK to these people who supposedly stand for the rights of children. It's a crock of shit.

The conservative christian movement is full of hypocrisy like that. They simply pick the sins they care about, and forget the rest. Gay marriage = the end of traditional values as we know it, but divorce and sexual assault is A ok! They claim to resist a large, domineering government, but then are allll for big government when it comes to the war on drugs, women's health, LGBT rights. I genuinely don't get it. How can these people be so insecure in their values and morals? Don't like weed? Don't smoke it! Don't like abortion? Don't have one! Don't like gay marriage? Pray your kids don't turn out to be gay, I guess, and leave everyone else the hell alone. Why are these people so intent on shoving their beliefs onto other people? Believe what you want to believe and let me believe what I want to. If you think I'm going to hell for being OK with gay marriage or reproductive choice, cool- let me burn. Why's it matter to them?

I'm so sick of politics in this country.

There are two possible answers to this.

First, it is perfectly consistent to say that the government has the obligation to keep you from being killed but not the obligation to provide for your material well-being, just as it is perfectly consistent to say that the government is obligated to protect the free exercise of your religion but is not obligated to build you a church, or to protect the freedom of the press without setting everyone in the country up with their own blog and podcast.

Second, remember that political parties in our first-past-the-post system are inherently coalitions.  The Christian right is actually not the epicenter of the Republican Party's fiscal agenda.  In fact, many of them may be part of the reason why the Republicans actually have a much easier time passing tax cuts than spending cuts, why the party never backs up its rhetoric on spending restraint.  While some of the Christian right may well be affirmatively in favor of such cuts, many Christians, including conservative ones, either actively oppose such cuts or just don't care much.  Note that Trump as a candidate (forget Trump as a president trying to get a legislative win of any kind of Congress) was not even remotely doctrinaire on taxes or spending.  He expressly ruled out entitlement cuts.  He even spoke with a mixed message on progressive taxation (and the positive things he said about it sounded Democratic, a fact that his opponents tried to use against him, and a line of attack that tellingly got nowhere).

Christian conservatives voted for Trump for the same reason they might vote for Moore.  It's the Supreme Court.  And it's the Supreme Court because of abortion, first and foremost.  More than perhaps any other major political faction in America besides their opponents in NARAL and allied organizations, the Christian right is extremely sensitive to the age of the current justices and the balance of the Supreme Court.  It is possible that a president Trump in 8 years could appoint four Supreme Court justices, counting the one he already appointed, three of which are votes in favor of Roe (and Obergefell, but note that despite being much more recent, that decision still doesn't raise the kind of ire that Roe does even 44 years later) that could be flipped.
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: freefourur on December 05, 2017, 11:30:06 AM
A 14 year old child getting raped is not her material well being.
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: Gramarye on December 05, 2017, 11:32:38 AM
A 14 year old child getting raped is not her material well being.

Agreed.  But it would be better (or perhaps one should say "less evil") than having her been aborted 14.5 years earlier.
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: freefourur on December 05, 2017, 11:34:34 AM
^ But Doug Jones is not aborting anyone and Roy Moore raped children.  Your attempt to compare the two is way off.
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: X on December 05, 2017, 11:44:17 AM
https://www.thedailybeast.com/the-rnc-resumes-funding-roy-moore

20 days.  That's all it took for the GOP to flip from caring about not electing an alleged child molester to donating to said alleged child molester.  20 days of faux values from the GOP.

Quote
The Republican National Committee is jumping back into the Alabama U.S. Senate election on behalf of Roy Moore, an RNC official confirmed to The Daily Beast. The news was first reported by Breitbart. The decision by the committee to put money and staff behind the Moore campaign comes hours after President Donald Trump formally endorsed the Senate candidate, who has been accused by multiple women of having sexually preyed on them when they were teenagers.

Well then they've just given us official justification to hang Moore's pedophilia on the entire national party.
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: Gramarye on December 05, 2017, 11:47:16 AM
^ But Doug Jones is not aborting anyone and Roy Moore raped children.  Your attempt to compare the two is way off.

I wasn't comparing the two individuals in that post.  I was comparing the evils of child molestation and legal abortion.  I have already done my comparing of the two men above.  Doug Jones would be an abortion rights absolutist.  Therefore, while Roy Moore does not deserve to be one of the 100 most powerful legislators on the planet, in the eyes of a great many Alabamans, neither does Doug Jones.  Yet somehow the electoral process managed to put this choice to the voters of Alabama.
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: mu2010 on December 05, 2017, 11:49:10 AM
Is your point RE: Jones not deserving to be one of the 100 that he doesn't represent his constituents' views on abortion, or that no abortion rights absolutists should be a part of that 100?
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: freefourur on December 05, 2017, 11:49:14 AM
^^ There is no pro life position in the abortion movement.  Illegal abortions will not stop abortions.  It's not a hard concept/.
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: 327 on December 05, 2017, 11:51:16 AM
First, it is perfectly consistent to say that the government has the obligation to keep you from being killed but not the obligation to provide for your material well-being

We're talking about children though.  How in the Dickens are they supposed to pull their own weight?
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: Gramarye on December 05, 2017, 11:54:02 AM
Is your point RE: Jones not deserving to be one of the 100 that he doesn't represent his constituents' views on abortion, or that no abortion rights absolutists should be a part of that 100?

I would prefer that all 100 Senators completely agree with my political preferences on every issue. :-)
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: mu2010 on December 05, 2017, 11:58:11 AM
in the eyes of a great many Alabamans

Haha... you answered my question here, missed that, sorry
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: Gramarye on December 05, 2017, 11:59:09 AM
First, it is perfectly consistent to say that the government has the obligation to keep you from being killed but not the obligation to provide for your material well-being

We're talking about children though.  How in the Dickens are they supposed to pull their own weight?

They aren't.  And as I said, many conservative Christians are OK with various welfare programs for family support.  Those that aren't, though, take the view that that responsibility falls on the family.

As a general rule, the social conservative vision of America depends on strong families reinforced by strong institutions committed both legally and morally to keeping families strong and intact.  Most social conservative thought leaders are highly aware of the threat to the viability of their vision posed by widespread family breakdown.  This is getting a bit far afield from the discussion of Moore specifically, though.
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: YABO713 on December 05, 2017, 11:59:35 AM
^^ There is no pro life position in the abortion movement.  Illegal abortions will not stop abortions.  It's not a hard concept/.

As a pragmatic conservative, I often find it laughable that one would suggest reducing abortions will be affected without an increase in contraceptives.
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: X on December 05, 2017, 11:59:50 AM
^ But Doug Jones is not aborting anyone and Roy Moore raped children.  Your attempt to compare the two is way off.

I wasn't comparing the two individuals in that post.  I was comparing the evils of child molestation and legal abortion.  I have already done my comparing of the two men above.  Doug Jones would be an abortion rights absolutist.  Therefore, while Roy Moore does not deserve to be one of the 100 most powerful legislators on the planet, in the eyes of a great many Alabamans, neither does Doug Jones.  Yet somehow the electoral process managed to put this choice to the voters of Alabama.

The national and state Republican parties could have repudiated him and put their efforts behind a write-in candidate who's not a pedophile.  Instead, they've gone full on in support of a pedophile.  The President could have kept his mouth shut and not endorsed a pedophile (well a different President could have).  But instead he's endorsed a pedophile.  The pro-Moore posters on here could simply stop defending a pedophile.  Instead, they defend a pedophile.
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: Gramarye on December 05, 2017, 12:01:14 PM
^ But Doug Jones is not aborting anyone and Roy Moore raped children.  Your attempt to compare the two is way off.

I wasn't comparing the two individuals in that post.  I was comparing the evils of child molestation and legal abortion.  I have already done my comparing of the two men above.  Doug Jones would be an abortion rights absolutist.  Therefore, while Roy Moore does not deserve to be one of the 100 most powerful legislators on the planet, in the eyes of a great many Alabamans, neither does Doug Jones.  Yet somehow the electoral process managed to put this choice to the voters of Alabama.

The national and state Republican parties could have repudiated him and put their efforts behind a write-in candidate who's not a pedophile.  Instead, they've gone full on in support of a pedophile.  The President could have kept his mouth shut and not endorsed a pedophile (well a different President could have).  But instead he's endorsed a pedophile.  The pro-Moore posters on here could simply stop defending a pedophile.  Instead, they defend a pedophile.

All too true, and I'm deeply disappointed to see the national party step back in, especially considering that Moore might well have won without them.
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: freefourur on December 05, 2017, 12:02:30 PM
^^ There is no pro life position in the abortion movement.  Illegal abortions will not stop abortions.  It's not a hard concept/.

As a pragmatic conservative, I often find it laughable that one would suggest reducing abortions will be affected without an increase in contraceptives.

The conservative view seems to be make abortion illegal.  Don't teach sex ed in school.  Although, the democratic philosophy is the one that has reduced abortions.  Kinda weird for absolutists huh?
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: YABO713 on December 05, 2017, 12:11:41 PM
^^ There is no pro life position in the abortion movement.  Illegal abortions will not stop abortions.  It's not a hard concept/.

As a pragmatic conservative, I often find it laughable that one would suggest reducing abortions will be affected without an increase in contraceptives.

The conservative view seems to be make abortion illegal.  Don't teach sex ed in school.  Although, the democratic philosophy is the one that has reduced abortions.  Kinda weird for absolutists huh?

Waco, TX experimented with abstinence-based sex ed from 2005 - 2014, they led the country in teenage pregnancies per capita for 3 of those 10 years.
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: freefourur on December 05, 2017, 12:13:44 PM
^ tell me again who hold pro-life views.
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: freefourur on December 05, 2017, 12:15:14 PM
life comes at you fast:

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DQTFz28VoAAucqw.jpg:large)
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: 327 on December 05, 2017, 12:16:21 PM
First, it is perfectly consistent to say that the government has the obligation to keep you from being killed but not the obligation to provide for your material well-being

We're talking about children though.  How in the Dickens are they supposed to pull their own weight?

They aren't.  And as I said, many conservative Christians are OK with various welfare programs for family support.  Those that aren't, though, take the view that that responsibility falls on the family.

As a general rule, the social conservative vision of America depends on strong families reinforced by strong institutions committed both legally and morally to keeping families strong and intact.  Most social conservative thought leaders are highly aware of the threat to the viability of their vision posed by widespread family breakdown.  This is getting a bit far afield from the discussion of Moore specifically, though.

It's been suggested that Moore's economic positions are what's causing the breakdown of families. That's why people who oppose Moore find his abortion stance to be, at best, poorly thought through-- even those who agree with that particular stance.

^ tell me again who hold pro-life views.

It doesn't break down cleanly by party or by gender, that's what makes it such a tough issue.
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: surfohio on December 05, 2017, 12:17:54 PM
^ But Doug Jones is not aborting anyone and Roy Moore raped children.  Your attempt to compare the two is way off.

I wasn't comparing the two individuals in that post.  I was comparing the evils of child molestation and legal abortion.  I have already done my comparing of the two men above.  Doug Jones would be an abortion rights absolutist.  Therefore, while Roy Moore does not deserve to be one of the 100 most powerful legislators on the planet, in the eyes of a great many Alabamans, neither does Doug Jones.  Yet somehow the electoral process managed to put this choice to the voters of Alabama.

Are you sure of that? From what I read it sounds like he supports late-term restrictions.
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: mu2010 on December 05, 2017, 12:25:00 PM
Abstinence-only sex education and opposition to contraceptives is the big problem for me with the pro-life religious right. I believe that there are a lot of people who are sincere in their opposition to abortion because they believe it is murder. I personally have a hard time with abortion myself and I would not want to partake in one, though I would defer to the woman ultimately. I don't agree with the view that abortion should be like visiting your doc with a sinus infection.

But there are a whole other heap of people in the movement who are prudes, reacting to the sexual revolution. They don't think you should be able to have sex without the 'consequences' and they see abortion and contraceptives as a way to avoid the consequence. These people see the child as a deserved punishment on the parents. That is the only way to interpret the advocacy for abstinence only sex education (which I was forced to sit through at a public high school in Cuyahoga County in the early 2000s) and opposition to contraceptives.

Just a bunch of people with sexual hangups trying to project them on the world. Why do you think there are so many sex scandals among hard right pastors?

Then you also have the harm reduction worldview vs the conservative strict hierarchical worldview. If legalizing a drug could decrease the harm of that drug, should we legalize it? Or hypothetically, if legalizing murder could decrease innocent deaths, should we legalize murder? I would say yes. It's the same with abortion. Safe legal rare.

Conservatives (especially populist Trumpians) love rules and strict punishments and living under hierarchical orders, so they say no, it's more important to have the rule than to consider the actual effect of the rule, because of the "message" you send if you legalize.
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: surfohio on December 05, 2017, 12:38:23 PM
Abstinence-only sex education and opposition to contraceptives is the big problem for me with the pro-life religious right. I believe that there are a lot of people who are sincere in their opposition to abortion because they believe it is murder. I personally have a hard time with abortion myself and I would not want to partake in one, though I would defer to the woman ultimately. I don't agree with the view that abortion should be like visiting your doc with a sinus infection.

But there are a whole other heap of people in the movement who are prudes, reacting to the sexual revolution. They don't think you should be able to have sex without the 'consequences' and they see abortion and contraceptives as a way to avoid the consequence. These people see the child as a deserved punishment on the parents. That is the only way to interpret the advocacy for abstinence only sex education (which I was forced to sit through at a public high school in Cuyahoga County in the early 2000s) and opposition to contraceptives.

I'm very much in agreement. There's a lot of deserved criticism, certainly. The problem I have is that however easy it is to label someone a hypocrite, it shouldn't automatically disparage the cause they're supporting. I'd like to believe that most people in the middle of the big issues aren't that way.

Like, I work with a lot of enviro-types, and consider myself one too. I'm sometimes dealing with some fringe people who believe a tree is a spirit goddess and that certain birds are angels. I may think that's laughable, but that doesn't mean we don't have a lot of overlapping interest on the issues. Or that they're bad people.
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: Gramarye on December 05, 2017, 12:53:51 PM
First, it is perfectly consistent to say that the government has the obligation to keep you from being killed but not the obligation to provide for your material well-being

We're talking about children though.  How in the Dickens are they supposed to pull their own weight?

They aren't.  And as I said, many conservative Christians are OK with various welfare programs for family support.  Those that aren't, though, take the view that that responsibility falls on the family.

As a general rule, the social conservative vision of America depends on strong families reinforced by strong institutions committed both legally and morally to keeping families strong and intact.  Most social conservative thought leaders are highly aware of the threat to the viability of their vision posed by widespread family breakdown.  This is getting a bit far afield from the discussion of Moore specifically, though.

It's been suggested that Moore's economic positions are what's causing the breakdown of families. That's why people who oppose Moore find his abortion stance to be, at best, poorly thought through-- even those who agree with that particular stance.

The opposite has also been suggested, too: that it is more than coincidental that the skyrocketing rates of out-of-wedlock births flows from the War on Poverty in the 1960s that allowed marriage to become a softer institution concerned with romance and self-actualization rather than a more hard-nosed institution of mutual support and interdependence, which then both led to and was amplified by the liberalization of divorce laws in the 1970s to the point of almost universal no-fault divorce.

Like I said, though, this is getting a long way afield from the Moore discussion, even though those competing narratives or historical frames of reference are definitely relevant to the background of the Christian right that seems likely at this point (though still not guaranteed) to send Moore to D.C.

ETA:

Abstinence-only sex education and opposition to contraceptives is the big problem for me with the pro-life religious right. I believe that there are a lot of people who are sincere in their opposition to abortion because they believe it is murder. I personally have a hard time with abortion myself and I would not want to partake in one, though I would defer to the woman ultimately. I don't agree with the view that abortion should be like visiting your doc with a sinus infection.

But there are a whole other heap of people in the movement who are prudes, reacting to the sexual revolution. They don't think you should be able to have sex without the 'consequences' and they see abortion and contraceptives as a way to avoid the consequence. These people see the child as a deserved punishment on the parents. That is the only way to interpret the advocacy for abstinence only sex education (which I was forced to sit through at a public high school in Cuyahoga County in the early 2000s) and opposition to contraceptives.

Just a bunch of people with sexual hangups trying to project them on the world. Why do you think there are so many sex scandals among hard right pastors?

Then you also have the harm reduction worldview vs the conservative strict hierarchical worldview. If legalizing a drug could decrease the harm of that drug, should we legalize it? Or hypothetically, if legalizing murder could decrease innocent deaths, should we legalize murder? I would say yes. It's the same with abortion. Safe legal rare.

Conservatives (especially populist Trumpians) love rules and strict punishments and living under hierarchical orders, so they say no, it's more important to have the rule than to consider the actual effect of the rule, because of the "message" you send if you legalize.

I actually do agree with the Trumpian concern about the normalizing effects of law.  They're not wrong about this, or at least certainly not completely wrong.  There is strong evidence for it.  Liberalizing divorce laws didn't just make people more likely to divorce because they were chomping at the bit to get out of their marriages; it also altered what social psychologists sometimes refer to as the "permission structure" around divorce, basically severely diluting the stigma of being divorced and other social pressures that aren't directly enforced by the courts but nevertheless are influenced by changes in the law.

On the issue of contraceptives, I have no idea where Moore stands.  That said, there is no serious movement in Washington for outright bans on non-abortifacient contraceptives anymore.  Even if Moore is against them personally, he will not be a decisive vote on that.  Not even close.  One should not confuse support for repealing the contraceptive mandate with actual support for banning them.  The contraceptive mandate was nearly the maximalist position: every employer, regardless of private faith-based objections, compelled by law to provide them or pay for insurance that would provide them with zero copayment (regardless of any copays for other services), placing contraceptives in a uniquely exalted position in the hierarchy of medical services.

Even as a fairly conservative Catholic, I agree that there is very little reason for the secular law to ban contraceptive use, both because of its use in preventing unwanted pregnancies and, regardless of use, simply because unfertilized zygotes are not humans and the law's legitimate sphere of protecting human life cannot logically extend to them.  Such a principle would make the average teenage girl guilty of one involuntary manslaughter a month and the average teenage boy guilty of at least one mass murder a day.
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: DarkandStormy on December 05, 2017, 01:48:20 PM
This probably deserves to be put in the Abortion thread, but we've gone a bit off-topic here (though still slightly on-topic I suppose).

I have two main issues with the "pro-life" right.  1 - They seemingly don't care about babies after they're born (unless they're white, preferably to an upper class family).  They are anti-BLM, a movement centered around improving relations with police to prevent unnecessary deaths of black people.  The current GOP (in Congress) is apparently anti-CHIP.  I suspect there's a lot of crossover of people who are "pro life" but also anti-food stamps, anti-welfare spending, etc. etc.  In short - they seem to care about all fetuses being born but don't give a crap about the quality of life for all people in this country.  It's kind of a "pick and choose" who to care about and when.

2 - The pro-life movement focuses almost exclusively on the result - no abortions ever.  Ok, fine.  I think in a utopian world, there would be no need for abortions.  But is the pro-life movement exerting any time or resources on better sex ed?  I'm talking about the people who don't get a proper sex education in school, don't know what condoms are or how they work, don't know they can get access to birth control, don't really know much of anything.  There are plenty of people out there like this.  So wouldn't it be better to boost sex ed to help ensure there aren't unwanted pregnancies to begin with?  Don't worry so much about the result - go to the cause.

Quote
A December report by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) found that less than half of U.S. high schools and only one-fifth of middle schools are meeting the CDC's recommendations for educating kids about sex.

http://www.governing.com/topics/health-human-services/gov-sex-education-cdc-report.html

I'd respect the pro-life movement more if they were focused on bridging that gap - helping adolescents (even uneducated adults) learn about their options to prevent unwanted pregnancies in the first place.  Maybe they do already, I don't know.  What I mostly see are posting billboards and marching on Washington.  They'd be much more effective teaching in the classroom and communities - but of course, this would also have to be adopting the viewpoint that condoms and birth control can prevent pregnancies which I'm not sure is likely to happen.
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: eastvillagedon on December 05, 2017, 02:02:56 PM
hey, I've got a good idea. Instead of indoctrinating kids with sex "education" and with every new-fangled form of social engineering that comes down the pike, why not actually teach them stuff that schools have traditionally done--you know, readin', writin', etc. What a novelty! And we wonder why our public schools are in the toilet compared to the rest of the world ::)

U.S. schoolchildren tumble in international reading exam rankings, worrying educators

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/education/wp/2017/12/05/u-s-schoolchildren-tumble-in-international-reading-exam-rankings-worrying-educators/?utm_term=.866ba31f4d00
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: E Rocc on December 05, 2017, 02:05:07 PM
This probably deserves to be put in the Abortion thread, but we've gone a bit off-topic here (though still slightly on-topic I suppose).

"  They are anti-BLM, a movement centered around improving relations with police to prevent unnecessary deaths of black people. 

Here’s the thing, that’s not how pretty much anyone to the right of Hillary sees “BLM”.  They aren’t about “improving relations with the police”, they are about making the police dramatically change the way they do things, in a manner that would put themselves and the law abiding public at risk.  While modifying the behavior of civilians not one bit.   Meanwhile, with a very few exceptions (Art McKoy being one), they couldn’t care less about white victims of the police or victims of black-on-black crime.  The latter costs more black lives every week than the police do in a year or more.

Getting more or less back on topic, my problem with abstinence-only education is it inevitably says “wait until marriage”, which teenagers know that extremely few people actually do.  Teenagers are allergic to perceived hypocrisy.   Plus, most to expect to get married until they are much older.  I suspect a “wait until adulthood” approach would work better.  That’s a fixed target, and presumably a time when smarter decisions are going to be made.
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: freefourur on December 05, 2017, 02:08:00 PM
hey, I've got a good idea. Instead of indoctrinating kids with sex "education" and with every new-fangled form of social engineering that comes down the pike, why not actually teach them stuff that schools have traditionally done--you know, readin', writin', etc. What a novelty! And we wonder why our public schools are in the toilet compared to the rest of the world ::)

U.S. schoolchildren tumble in international reading exam rankings, worrying educators

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/education/wp/2017/12/05/u-s-schoolchildren-tumble-in-international-reading-exam-rankings-worrying-educators/?utm_term=.866ba31f4d00

One can teach sex education and the basics one does not preclude the other.  Also, education costs money and Mississippi and Alabama have no use in investing in such left wing indoctrination aka learning.
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: Gramarye on December 05, 2017, 02:22:01 PM
I would make a guess that if one polled the average education of Roy Moore and Doug Jones voters, they'd be similar.

Equating learning and left wing indoctrination is rather telling, freefourur, though probably not for the reason that you meant it.  In fact, quite likely for precisely the opposite reason.
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: freefourur on December 05, 2017, 02:23:53 PM
I took the word indoctrination directly from EVD.  So therefore it is very telling.  I agree.
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: eastvillagedon on December 05, 2017, 02:32:33 PM
propagandizing. That's a better word!  :P
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: Foraker on December 05, 2017, 03:01:40 PM
I actually do agree with the Trumpian concern about the normalizing effects of law.  They're not wrong about this, or at least certainly not completely wrong.  There is strong evidence for it.  Liberalizing divorce laws didn't just make people more likely to divorce because they were chomping at the bit to get out of their marriages; it also altered what social psychologists sometimes refer to as the "permission structure" around divorce, basically severely diluting the stigma of being divorced and other social pressures that aren't directly enforced by the courts but nevertheless are influenced by changes in the law.

Surprisingly, I would also agree that we should be concerned about the normalizing effects of laws. Roy Moore is a big fan of the NRA and pulled a gun from his pocket at a September rally to demonstrate his bona fides.  http://thehill.com/homenews/senate/352410-roy-moore-pulls-out-gun-while-speaking-at-rally

The NRA policy of liberalizing gun laws didn't only make people more likely to carry murder weapons around, and they didn't only do so so that they could kill other people because they were chomping at the bit to commit murder.  Liberalizing gun laws also made it socially acceptable to kill anyone you were afraid of. 

Liberalizing gun laws also means that gun manufacturing is booming, now over 10 million firearms produced a year.  At a time when there are already more guns than people in the US, how much is enough?
http://www.businessinsider.com/us-gun-manufacturing-atf-report-2015-7

Liberalizing gun laws have led to too many gun owners that don't respect the serious nature of guns.  There's no education course required for gun ownership or demonstration of knowledge or experience about how to properly handle, clean, and store a gun -- just a purchase price.  And a background check if you're buying new from a dealer.  So now we have "accidental" gun injuries and deaths, too often of children who "find" an unattended gun. And under the NRA-endorsed gun laws, there are rarely any legal consequences for the gun owner's negligence -- "it was just an accident."  These "accidents" and I-feared-for-my-life killings happen every day -- and we just accept it as something that can't be changed. 

http://www.gunviolencearchive.org/

If cars were guns, the NRA would be pushing to abolish speed limits, lines on the highway, and any and all limitations on car safety.  They'd probably argue that you would be within your rights to run anyone over who looked like a threat.   

Roy Moore wants to support the NRA, and hopefully Alabama decides they don't want to support Roy Moore.
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: DarkandStormy on December 05, 2017, 03:14:52 PM
I would make a guess that if one polled the average education of Roy Moore and Doug Jones voters, they'd be similar.

Equating learning and left wing indoctrination is rather telling, freefourur, though probably not for the reason that you meant it.  In fact, quite likely for precisely the opposite reason.

https://www.npr.org/2016/04/30/475794063/why-are-highly-educated-americans-getting-more-liberal

Quote
A report from the Pew Research Center finds a wide partisan gap between highly educated and non-highly-educated Americans. Not only that, but the share of college grads and post-graduates who are "consistently liberal" (based on their answers to a series of policy questions) has grown sharply in the last 20 years.

Chicken or the egg question sort of.  But the data is out there - the higher the education you get the more likely you are to be liberal.
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: DarkandStormy on December 05, 2017, 03:17:36 PM
Just to recap on Roy Moore:

-alleged child molester
-fairly-widely known "creep" (at best) / pedo
-believes gay people should be locked up simply for being gay
-believes Muslims should not be allowed to serve in the U.S. Congress
-honors the Bible over the U.S. Constitution, even as a public servant
-Co-authored a course as recently as 2011 contending that women should not be allowed to run for public office

What a highlight reel.
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: freefourur on December 05, 2017, 03:25:26 PM
Doug Jones says "when you see me with a gun, I'll be climbing in and out of a deer blind . . . not prancing around on a stage in a cowboy suit"

lol
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: DarkandStormy on December 05, 2017, 03:29:36 PM
http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2017/12/many-women-never-molested-by-roy-moore-spokesperson-says.html

Quote
“We need to make it clear that there’s a group of non-accusers, that have not accused the judge of any sexual misconduct or anything illegal,” explains one of Moore’s campaign spokespeople on CNN.

Ok?  Like wtf?  Moore's defense here is that, "LOOK AT ALL THESE MILLIONS OF WOMEN HE DIDN'T SEXUALLY ASSAULT."   Good Lord.
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: Gramarye on December 05, 2017, 03:44:16 PM
I would make a guess that if one polled the average education of Roy Moore and Doug Jones voters, they'd be similar.

Equating learning and left wing indoctrination is rather telling, freefourur, though probably not for the reason that you meant it.  In fact, quite likely for precisely the opposite reason.

https://www.npr.org/2016/04/30/475794063/why-are-highly-educated-americans-getting-more-liberal

Quote
A report from the Pew Research Center finds a wide partisan gap between highly educated and non-highly-educated Americans. Not only that, but the share of college grads and post-graduates who are "consistently liberal" (based on their answers to a series of policy questions) has grown sharply in the last 20 years.

Chicken or the egg question sort of.  But the data is out there - the higher the education you get the more likely you are to be liberal.

True, but multiple counters in slightly different directions to this:

(1) I didn't say that those with higher levels of education are not more likely to be liberal.  That trend is well-documented at this point.  I was specifically talking about the electorate in Alabama.  The rafts of liberal-leaning Ph.D.'s that drive up that "educated = liberal" stat are unlikely to be a material presence there.  If this were a House district in Silicon Valley or suburban NYC, I wouldn't have said that.

(2) While it's true that further education is correlated with increasing levels of liberalism, not all the reasons for that stat are particularly flattering.  Finding employment in the fields into which liberals tend to gravitate (including, of course, academia itself) is increasingly difficult without a Ph.D. and less and less certain and lucrative even with one.  Meanwhile, the increasingly dogmatic liberal bias of higher academia frequently deters intelligent conservative undergrads from pursuing further education.  The corporate world pays better than a lot of Ph.D.s can expect (especially in the most liberal fields like sociology or all the various ethnic and gender studies fields, but largely across the board in the humanities and social sciences), and is less ideologically hostile.  (Many doctoral students and junior faculty might say that they do it for the love of their field and not the love of money, of course, but I suspect that comes with an asterisk or two.)
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: E Rocc on December 06, 2017, 08:47:50 AM
I actually do agree with the Trumpian concern about the normalizing effects of law.  They're not wrong about this, or at least certainly not completely wrong.  There is strong evidence for it.  Liberalizing divorce laws didn't just make people more likely to divorce because they were chomping at the bit to get out of their marriages; it also altered what social psychologists sometimes refer to as the "permission structure" around divorce, basically severely diluting the stigma of being divorced and other social pressures that aren't directly enforced by the courts but nevertheless are influenced by changes in the law.

Surprisingly, I would also agree that we should be concerned about the normalizing effects of laws. Roy Moore is a big fan of the NRA and pulled a gun from his pocket at a September rally to demonstrate his bona fides.  http://thehill.com/homenews/senate/352410-roy-moore-pulls-out-gun-while-speaking-at-rally

The NRA policy of liberalizing gun laws didn't only make people more likely to carry murder weapons around, and they didn't only do so so that they could kill other people because they were chomping at the bit to commit murder.  Liberalizing gun laws also made it socially acceptable to kill anyone you were afraid of. 

Liberalizing gun laws also means that gun manufacturing is booming, now over 10 million firearms produced a year.  At a time when there are already more guns than people in the US, how much is enough?
http://www.businessinsider.com/us-gun-manufacturing-atf-report-2015-7

Liberalizing gun laws have led to too many gun owners that don't respect the serious nature of guns.  There's no education course required for gun ownership or demonstration of knowledge or experience about how to properly handle, clean, and store a gun -- just a purchase price.  And a background check if you're buying new from a dealer.  So now we have "accidental" gun injuries and deaths, too often of children who "find" an unattended gun. And under the NRA-endorsed gun laws, there are rarely any legal consequences for the gun owner's negligence -- "it was just an accident."  These "accidents" and I-feared-for-my-life killings happen every day -- and we just accept it as something that can't be changed. 

http://www.gunviolencearchive.org/

If cars were guns, the NRA would be pushing to abolish speed limits, lines on the highway, and any and all limitations on car safety.  They'd probably argue that you would be within your rights to run anyone over who looked like a threat.   

Roy Moore wants to support the NRA, and hopefully Alabama decides they don't want to support Roy Moore.


Just so you know, Jones is pro-gun, although somewhat wishy washy on the topic.   His views are close to Kasich's.
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: bfwissel on December 06, 2017, 08:51:04 AM
"Pro-gun" is a bit of an odd description.  I guess I'm pro-gun in that I own a handgun and feel like responsible Americans should be able to own guns.  However, I also believe there should be licensing, tracking, ownership limits, insurance requirements, bans against convicts as well as the mentally unstable, etc....  Moore is more of a "gun-nut".
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: E Rocc on December 06, 2017, 08:54:39 AM
I would make a guess that if one polled the average education of Roy Moore and Doug Jones voters, they'd be similar.

Equating learning and left wing indoctrination is rather telling, freefourur, though probably not for the reason that you meant it.  In fact, quite likely for precisely the opposite reason.

https://www.npr.org/2016/04/30/475794063/why-are-highly-educated-americans-getting-more-liberal

Quote
A report from the Pew Research Center finds a wide partisan gap between highly educated and non-highly-educated Americans. Not only that, but the share of college grads and post-graduates who are "consistently liberal" (based on their answers to a series of policy questions) has grown sharply in the last 20 years.

Chicken or the egg question sort of.  But the data is out there - the higher the education you get the more likely you are to be liberal.

True, but multiple counters in slightly different directions to this:

(1) I didn't say that those with higher levels of education are not more likely to be liberal.  That trend is well-documented at this point.  I was specifically talking about the electorate in Alabama.  The rafts of liberal-leaning Ph.D.'s that drive up that "educated = liberal" stat are unlikely to be a material presence there.  If this were a House district in Silicon Valley or suburban NYC, I wouldn't have said that.

(2) While it's true that further education is correlated with increasing levels of liberalism, not all the reasons for that stat are particularly flattering.  Finding employment in the fields into which liberals tend to gravitate (including, of course, academia itself) is increasingly difficult without a Ph.D. and less and less certain and lucrative even with one.  Meanwhile, the increasingly dogmatic liberal bias of higher academia frequently deters intelligent conservative undergrads from pursuing further education.  The corporate world pays better than a lot of Ph.D.s can expect (especially in the most liberal fields like sociology or all the various ethnic and gender studies fields, but largely across the board in the humanities and social sciences), and is less ideologically hostile.  (Many doctoral students and junior faculty might say that they do it for the love of their field and not the love of money, of course, but I suspect that comes with an asterisk or two.)

Also, these types of statistics are misleading because they give equal weight to degrees in Oppression Studies as Computer Engineering.   Let’s be honest, you can literally get a degree in being “progressive” at some universities.

That said, when the right was in the ascendancy among college students during the Reagan era, most actively rejected the idea of entering academia because it was full of tenured dogmatic lefties and beginning to be contaminated with “political correctness”.  So we left it to them.  That may have been a strategic era comparable to theirs regarding Watergate.   It helped bring the above situation about.
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: E Rocc on December 06, 2017, 08:56:48 AM
"Pro-gun" is a bit of an odd description.  I guess I'm pro-gun in that I own a handgun and feel like responsible Americans should be able to own guns.  However, I also believe there should be licensing, tracking, ownership limits, insurance requirements, bans against convicts as well as the mentally unstable, etc....  Moore is more of a "gun-nut".

He's more of a "nut", period.  Jones describes himself as a "Second Amendment guy".  I'm not sure about his sincerity, but remember I say the same about Trump.
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: E Rocc on December 06, 2017, 09:00:03 AM
^ Thus proving that the GOP cares nothing about their rhetoric about family values, fiscal responsibility, or personal responsibility. But those of us with IQs higher than room temperature knew this already.

Is this the direction the board is going?

This is the direction our national politics is going.  I'll stand by my comment that if you defend a child molester I have to question your brain function.

Leaving aside the fact that your comment was about the GOP in general, that leaps across a line we've more or less held in this forum for years.
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: Gramarye on December 06, 2017, 09:01:14 AM
Well, in the spirit of posting potential contrary authority to my own point, one Huffington Post columnist argues that abortion is actually not the main reason Republicans still aren't switching to Doug Jones:

WARNING: IRKSOME AUTOPLAYING VIDEO

https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/doug-jones-abortion-poll_us_5a25473fe4b03c44072eca22

Granted, this poll was taken before the sexual harassment allegations against Moore came to light, which is a pretty major asterisk.  But at least before that, general tribalism (general dislike of the other) was the main reason most Republicans wouldn't consider switching (about 36% of respondents); only 8% specifically cited abortion as the primary reason.  I do wonder if those numbers would change now, considering that many people who might have cited general likeability before may consider Moore less likeable given the new allegations.
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: mu2010 on December 06, 2017, 09:21:02 AM
Academia is undoubtedly full of hard leftists especially in social science type fields. However, lots of Republican profs in business and engineering colleges which is probably what a plurality of people get degrees in anyways. I'm also going to go on a limb here and suggest plenty of libertarians in the hard sciences and computer fields.

But then you have the fact that the Republican party has become so incredibly anti-intellectual, they're going to drive away whatever conservative academics existed. There's only so much expert-bashing these people can take when they generally value and respect experts. Case in point, my physicist brother who was always right-leaning through his undergrad studies is now done with the GOP and now is basically a technocrat Democrat.

The right wing meme of marxist academia really only applies to certain fields, that the vast majority of people maybe take one or two electives in at most. Same with the meme of "liberal snowflake college students protesting everything." The students protesting everything are such a small percentage of the college population it's wouldn't even be worth mentioning if they weren't so loud. But it benefits the GOP and Fox News to use the blanket term "college students" as a type of class warfare, because of their white working class viewers who are already predisposed against college educations and young people. It's all part of their goal of vilifying and discrediting every institution of American society in order to consolidate power over their true believers.
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: freefourur on December 06, 2017, 09:31:45 AM
Academia is undoubtedly full of leftists especially in social science type fields. However, lots of Republican profs in business and engineering colleges which is probably what a plurality of people get degrees in anyways. I'm also going to go on a limb here and suggest plenty of libertarians in the hard sciences and computer fields.

But then you have the fact that the Republican party has become so incredibly anti-intellectual, they're going to drive away whatever conservative academics existed. There's only so much these people can take. Case in point, my physicist brother who was always right-leaning through his undergrad studies is now done with the GOP and now is basically a technocrat Democrat.

The right wing meme of marxist academia really only applies to certain fields, that the vast majority of people maybe take one or two electives in at most. Same with the meme of "liberal snowflake college students protesting everything." The students protesting everything are such a small percentage of the college population it's wouldn't even be worth mentioning if they weren't so loud. But it benefits the GOP and Fox News to use the blanket term "college students" as a type of class warfare, because of their white working class viewers who are already predisposed against college educations and young people. It's all part of their goal of vilifying and discrediting every institution of American society in order to consolidate power over their true believers.

A lot of good points.  Something else to consider is that people at college age are also trying to find their place in life and are more likely to be involved in protests.  Once people start working and have a family they become politically active in different ways.  The GOP elite has really pushed this anti-education rhetoric which I think is doing a disservice to theory constituency.  The GOP elite mostly have degrees from elite instutitions as well and they send their children to these institutions. 
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: YABO713 on December 06, 2017, 09:32:18 AM
^ As a Conservative with an advanced degree, it was pretty clear that we became "anti-intellectual" because certain facts hurt our platform. Climate data, et al. have now thrust scientists into politics in a way not seen since the Scopes Monkey Trials or Galileo - both of which situations proved science to be the more reliable.

The same exists from the left in some aspects of finance, but the denial of fact is significantly more egregious from my side of the aisle.
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: freefourur on December 06, 2017, 09:36:16 AM
^ I also feel that the denial of finance/economic facts on the left is actually a rather fringe belief.  The GOP is  trying to convince people that HRD was a puppet of Wall Street and a communist.  It doesn't really make sense.  Many democrats are center to center-right on fiscal issues.  That's how I view myself.  I believe that the market system is the most efficient system to deal with widgets but I also understand that some things belong in the "commons" because these goods need to be distributed by need rather than efficiency. 
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: mu2010 on December 06, 2017, 09:36:29 AM
^ As a Conservative with an advanced degree, it was pretty clear that we became "anti-intellectual" because certain facts hurt our platform. Climate data, et al. have now thrust scientists into politics in a way not seen since the Scopes Monkey Trials or Galileo - both of which situations proved science to be the more reliable.

The same exists from the left in some aspects of finance, but the denial of fact is significantly more egregious from my side of the aisle.

Yes I forgot to mention climate change, that's probably the biggest one for the hard scientists like my brother.

I also see what you are saying about the left and finance - as a Dem with an accounting degree, sometimes it seems that far-left ppl feel that if they just want it hard enough, they can overcome financial realities.
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: YABO713 on December 06, 2017, 09:39:09 AM
Yes I forgot to mention climate change, that's probably the biggest one for the hard scientists like my brother.

I also see what you are saying about the left and finance - as a Dem with an accounting degree, sometimes it seems that far-left ppl feel that if they just want it hard enough, they can overcome financial realities.

Lol yes, until this bankruptcy-addicted POTUS and spineless Congress, I used to love that the GOP would focus on reducing the deficit.

I still maintain that it's our biggest national security threat, but hey, "HOW DARE YOU CUT SPENDING!?" - Bernie Sanders and Trump voters at the same time not realizing the irony.
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: freefourur on December 06, 2017, 09:39:32 AM
^^ I mean the GOP are the ones trying to convince everyone that these tax cuts will pay for themselves...  Talk about fiscal illiteracy.
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: Gramarye on December 06, 2017, 09:44:00 AM
^ As a Conservative with an advanced degree, it was pretty clear that we became "anti-intellectual" because certain facts hurt our platform. Climate data, et al. have now thrust scientists into politics in a way not seen since the Scopes Monkey Trials or Galileo - both of which situations proved science to be the more reliable.

I'm also a conservative with an advanced degree, but I come down on the opposite side of the climate science issue.  The evidence of the extreme politicization of that field is too strong.  Suppression of contrary findings, deliberate defunding and blacklisting from publication of research even intended to seek contrary findings, deletion of e-mails to avoid public records requests, inexplicable corruption of raw data, methodology deliberately designed to hide inconvenient data points or "normalize" them out of existence, etc.  Again, though, this is far afield from Moore.  I very much doubt that any significant amount of the support or opposition to him is motivated by his likely defense of Scott Pruitt at the EPA (defense which I'm just assuming based on his other positions and haven't even investigated for one acarpous second).
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: gottaplan on December 06, 2017, 09:44:27 AM
so when is this actual vote?  I'm anxious for this $hit show to be over...
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: freefourur on December 06, 2017, 09:45:16 AM
^ It is on this coming Tuesday.
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: freefourur on December 06, 2017, 09:46:45 AM
During the Weinstein saga - Republicans were all over the Dems to return money that he donated.  Shouldn't Republicans no have to return all money that the received from the RNC since they are supporting a pedophile?  Or is there a different standards for the "family Values" party.
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: YABO713 on December 06, 2017, 09:48:32 AM
Can proudly say that I deleted all of my accounts and information from a couple of the GOP funds that I've donated to in the past.

Their supply of cash to Moore says either:

1. We don't believe the women, or
2. We do but who cares.
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: 327 on December 06, 2017, 09:53:50 AM
Can proudly say that I deleted all of my accounts and information from a couple of the GOP funds that I've donated to in the past.

Their supply of cash to Moore says either:

1. We don't believe the women, or
2. We do but who cares.


It's #2.  What better way to express outrage at the outrage (without exposing yourself to further outrage).
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: freefourur on December 06, 2017, 09:57:11 AM
21 days ago the RNC said that they believed the women.  What has transpired since then to make them believe that they are lying and the Moore is being honest.  I just can't help to wonder how much screaming would be going on if the DNC did this.
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: DarkandStormy on December 06, 2017, 10:11:17 AM
21 days ago the RNC said that they believed the women.  What has transpired since then to make them believe that they are lying and the Moore is being honest.  I just can't help to wonder how much screaming would be going on if the DNC did this.

Nothing.  They just decided they'd rather have his vote than deal with losing a seat to Jones.  I assume all the threats of "We'll expel him if he's elected" was just for show (surprise!) and they don't care now.

Fwiw, Jeff Flake donated $100 to Doug Jones (supposedly - he wrote the check and posted a pic on Twitter).  Romney is obviously anti-Moore.  Ivanka was?  But just about everyone else has flipped, including Ryan, McConnell, and Trump.
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: DarkandStormy on December 06, 2017, 10:12:07 AM
Lol yes, until this bankruptcy-addicted POTUS and spineless Congress, I used to love that the GOP would focus on reducing the deficit.

You mean like the Reagan tax cuts that added to the deficit or the Bush tax cuts that exploded the deficit?
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: YABO713 on December 06, 2017, 11:37:35 AM
Lol yes, until this bankruptcy-addicted POTUS and spineless Congress, I used to love that the GOP would focus on reducing the deficit.

You mean like the Reagan tax cuts that added to the deficit or the Bush tax cuts that exploded the deficit?

The guy is a turd right now, but Newt Gingrich worked brilliantly with President Clinton to reduce spending and compromised on the top tax brackets. GOP led legislatures have done a very good job at this, Exec's not always the same.
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: freefourur on December 06, 2017, 11:52:23 AM
Worth remembering that as Democratic women of the Senate rightfully stand up to call on Al Franken to resign, RNC Chairwoman Ronna McDaniel is funneling hundreds of thousands of dollars to child molester Roy Moore.
https://twitter.com/mattmfm/status/938450167451324418
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: KJP on December 06, 2017, 11:57:21 AM
You earned this image, GOP

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DQUfTXKXUAEanTi.jpg:large)
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: DarkandStormy on December 07, 2017, 09:24:33 AM
https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/doug-jones-is-just-a-normal-polling-error-away-from-a-win-in-alabama/

Senate races - especially special elections - are extremely hard to predict.  Jones and Moore are essentially within the "margin of error" right now.

https://twitter.com/mkraju/status/938599893496684544

Quote
What Roy Moore's spox couldn't answer on @ac360
- whether Moore thinks Obama was born in US
- whether he thinks Muslims should be in Congress
- whether Moore thinks homosexuality should be outlawed
- whether 9/11 happened bc US distanced itself from God

Oh, good.
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: Hootenany on December 07, 2017, 09:50:45 AM
Roy Moore will win this race.  I'm not even convinced that it's going to be close.  The discrepancy between the polling average and the actual result usually favors the morally repugnant candidate.  People are ashamed to say out loud that they will be voting for Roy Moore, but when they are in the privacy of that voting both they will undoubtedly pull the lever for Moore.  This bias was on full display in the 2016 presidential election.

The only chance Doug Jones has is massive voter turnout.  Is he really that inspiring?
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: freefourur on December 07, 2017, 09:54:22 AM
^ I'm not sure if high turnout helps Jones or not.  Since the majority of voters are Republicans are a low turnout could signal not enthusiasm for Moore.  I could be wrong though.
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: Cleburger on December 07, 2017, 02:22:44 PM
So will the Senate seat Roy Moore after he wins? 
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: KJP on December 07, 2017, 07:39:12 PM
Too many gullible idiots...

There's actually a video of Roy Moore in 1997 arguing that kids commit drive-by shooting because they are taught evolution in school: "They're acting like animals because we've taught them they come from animals." https://t.co/YoHZXKfpAl
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: KJP on December 08, 2017, 08:31:23 AM
I'm telling ya. We should have let The South go its own twisted way...

Moore to an African American asking when he last thought America was “great”: “I think it was great at the time when families were united. Even though we had slavery, they cared for one another…. Our families were strong, our country had a direction.”

http://www.latimes.com/politics/la-na-pol-alabama-senate-runoff-20170921-story.html
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: YABO713 on December 08, 2017, 08:42:10 AM
I'm telling ya. We should have let The South go its own twisted way...

Moore to an African American asking when he last thought America was “great”: “I think it was great at the time when families were united. Even though we had slavery, they cared for one another…. Our families were strong, our country had a direction.”

http://www.latimes.com/politics/la-na-pol-alabama-senate-runoff-20170921-story.html

Cannot tell you how frightening it is that this man was a state's highest member of the Judiciary.
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: freefourur on December 08, 2017, 08:51:06 AM
^ I mean... It is Alabama though.
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: Ram23 on December 08, 2017, 12:36:02 PM
The number of people in Alabama who do not believe these allegations likely just increased significantly. This was really the only thing resembling "evidence" that was put forth, and it now appears that it's not entirely authentic:

Roy Moore accuser alters story on yearbook signing, to hold press conference

http://www.al.com/news/index.ssf/2017/12/roy_moore_accuser_alters_story.html#incart_river_index

Beverly Young Nelson, the former Gadsden waitress who presented her high school yearbook she said was signed by Roy Moore, altered the story she originally told regarding the yearbook signature.

Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: freefourur on December 08, 2017, 12:38:01 PM
^ Big deal.  She put the date and location on it. It was obvious that he didn't write that part.

How many times has Moore changed his story now?
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: Cleburger on December 08, 2017, 12:51:05 PM
The number of people in Alabama who do not believe these allegations likely just increased significantly. This was really the only thing resembling "evidence" that was put forth, and it now appears that it's not entirely authentic:

Roy Moore accuser alters story on yearbook signing, to hold press conference

http://www.al.com/news/index.ssf/2017/12/roy_moore_accuser_alters_story.html#incart_river_index

Beverly Young Nelson, the former Gadsden waitress who presented her high school yearbook she said was signed by Roy Moore, altered the story she originally told regarding the yearbook signature.



I don't care 2 flying f**ks about this woman's yearbook.  The man was twice removed from the AL Supreme Court, and was BANNED FROM A SHOPPING MALL.   How many of your friends were banned from malls after the age of 18.....?   
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: freefourur on December 08, 2017, 12:55:24 PM
He admitted to Sean Hannity they he dated teenage girls with their mom's permission.  There is a reason this guy won't do any real interviews, debates or testify under oath. Being a pedophile is not even the worst thing about him.  That says a lot.
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: YABO713 on December 08, 2017, 01:47:30 PM
^ Then he denied it two weeks later, with no backlash from Hannity & Co.
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: freefourur on December 08, 2017, 02:09:41 PM
And this was after Hannity gave him 24 hours to come up with a credible defense, which he didn't.  The GOP, with few exceptions, is showing a lack of courage when they can't even stand up to a pedophile.
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: eastvillagedon on December 08, 2017, 03:03:45 PM
The number of people in Alabama who do not believe these allegations likely just increased significantly. This was really the only thing resembling "evidence" that was put forth, and it now appears that it's not entirely authentic:

Roy Moore accuser alters story on yearbook signing, to hold press conference

http://www.al.com/news/index.ssf/2017/12/roy_moore_accuser_alters_story.html#incart_river_index

Beverly Young Nelson, the former Gadsden waitress who presented her high school yearbook she said was signed by Roy Moore, altered the story she originally told regarding the yearbook signature.


this story is so strange. 1) If, as she says, only the inscription was added by her, why would anyone do something like that? and 2) if Roy Moore's signature is authentic, why won't she release it for handwriting analysis?
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: freefourur on December 08, 2017, 03:04:48 PM
^ They offered to release it for analysis if Roy will testify under oath.  Why won't he testify under oath?
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: eastvillagedon on December 08, 2017, 03:09:19 PM
^why should he? Is he on trial for something?
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: freefourur on December 08, 2017, 03:10:20 PM
^ Why should she turn over the yearbook?  Is she on trial for something?
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: eastvillagedon on December 08, 2017, 03:12:39 PM
^she's making very serious allegations that could destroy someone's life, and a crucial piece of evidence related to those allegations appear to contain inconsistencies, that's why.
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: freefourur on December 08, 2017, 03:15:39 PM
^ She is not the only one making accusations.  4 other women corroborated with 30 sources, a police officer and many others. The guy is a piece of crap whether you want to believe it or not.  Twice removed from the court for not respecting the rule of law.
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: YABO713 on December 08, 2017, 03:19:19 PM
^she's making very serious allegations that could destroy someone's life, and a crucial piece of evidence related to those allegations appear to contain inconsistencies, that's why.

Yeah, Don. That would literally be the last piece of advice any attorney would give their client. There is no discovery process, so the Moore camp could go through 30 handwriting experts before finding one who says it isn't compatible. The other 29 wouldn't have to be disclosed.

The Moore camp initially admitted it was signed, but just said it was signed by his assistant. So the relationship was acknowledged initially anyways.
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: YABO713 on December 08, 2017, 03:20:37 PM
Simple Question, @eastvillagedon ... Do you believe the 9 women accusing Roy Moore of sexual advances while they were in their teens are making it up?
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: freefourur on December 08, 2017, 03:21:19 PM
Moore's stories have more holes than swiss cheese but blind tribalists will find the minor inconsistency in one small part of the accusations and magnify tham.  But that's what tribalists do.
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: YABO713 on December 08, 2017, 03:23:39 PM
I loathe what I am witnessing of the GOP today, my former party, and the party of Reagan and Lincoln.

Picking apart inconsistencies in stories that graphically depict pedophilia, supported by dozens of corroborating witnesses. Instead of focusing on the fact that THE PARTY OF MORALITY IS SUPPORTING A PEDOPHILE who has now had 3 different versions of his own story with the initial accuser.
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: freefourur on December 08, 2017, 03:24:31 PM
^ But they are willing to believe something like pizzagate which never made any sense or had any evidence.
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: eastvillagedon on December 08, 2017, 03:31:00 PM
Moore's stories have more holes than swiss cheese but blind tribalists will find the minor inconsistency in one small part of the accusations and magnify tham.  But that's what tribalists do.

well, maybe you're right. That is what tribalists do --except sometimes those inconsistencies aren't so "minor," are they?

Feminists gave up the high ground in the Bill Clinton era; they can't get it back

by Noemie Emery | Oct 24, 2017, 12:10 AM 

http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/feminists-gave-up-the-high-ground-in-the-bill-clinton-era-they-cant-get-it-back/article/2638413
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: freefourur on December 08, 2017, 03:32:01 PM
^ Instead of defending yourself you go to the whataboutism.  This is getting very predictable. Just admit you're a tribalist and move on. 
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: YABO713 on December 08, 2017, 03:41:56 PM
Yeah, the whataboutism is atrocious. Looked awful on the Dems too for the beginning of the Conyers and Franken scandal, but at least those pinko-libs have come around in that regard.

Roy Moore thinks America is the focus of evil because of gay marriage. Ask yourself if this is the type of guy you'd like to spend moral capital on...
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: Cleburger on December 08, 2017, 03:44:42 PM
Yeah, the whataboutism is atrocious. Looked awful on the Dems too for the beginning of the Conyers and Franken scandal, but at least those pinko-libs have come around in that regard.

Roy Moore thinks America is the focus of evil because of gay marriage. Ask yourself if this is the type of guy you'd like to spend moral capital on...

BUT WHATABOUT MUHHHH DAUGHTUR IN THE LADIES ROOM?   HOW WILL SHE BE SAFE WIT ALL THE PREDUTERS TODUY?
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: freefourur on December 08, 2017, 03:45:22 PM
The GOP is actually better off if Moore loses.   There's no way Jones would hold that seat for a second term so it would only be a dem seat for what 2.5 years?  The fact that they are willing to die on this hill is amazing to me.
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: eastvillagedon on December 08, 2017, 04:00:16 PM
Yeah, the whataboutism is atrocious. Looked awful on the Dems too for the beginning of the Conyers and Franken scandal, but at least those pinko-libs have come around in that regard.



But they really have lost nothing. Conyers' and Franken's seats will be filled (first by appointment and then most likely by special election) by like-minded candidates, since like-minded people are in power to make those appointments. As as far as having regrets about Bill Clinton, it's all just too little, and way too late. The Democrats can do nothing now about the shameful way they remained silent when his disgraceful behavior first came to light, instead attempting to shame the women who were Clinton's victims--the very type of sexual abuse victims they now profess to safeguard and seek justice for. It's just an elaborate dog-and-pony show for them.
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: freefourur on December 08, 2017, 04:02:36 PM
^ You want to focus on how the Dems acted 25 years ago vs. how they are acting today.  Does Clarence Thomas mean anything to you?  Now how about you address your tribalistic defense of a pedophile?

BTW...there are no appointments for House seats.
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: eastvillagedon on December 08, 2017, 04:07:08 PM
^ You want to focus on how the Dems acted 25 years ago vs. how they are acting today. 
I didn't know there was a statute of limitations on truth and reconciliation. Well, maybe for the Democrat party. I can understand why they want to sweep the past under the rug. Sad.
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: freefourur on December 08, 2017, 04:08:29 PM
^ And you want to focus on history instead of the pedophile you support.  I could see why you want to pull that whataboutism.  Explain your support of a pedophile or admit it's just tribalism. 

Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: Gramarye on December 08, 2017, 04:21:21 PM
Yeah, the whataboutism is atrocious. Looked awful on the Dems too for the beginning of the Conyers and Franken scandal, but at least those pinko-libs have come around in that regard.



But they really have lost nothing. Conyers' and Franken's seats will be filled (first by appointment and then most likely by special election) by like-minded candidates, since like-minded people are in power to make those appointments.

How does this not apply in Alabama?  The governor of Alabama is a Republican.  The electorate of Alabama is heavily Republican.  If the Republicans want, they could move to deny Moore his seat if he wins.  I still seriously hope they do, though I'm sure that hope is in vain.  If they do, the Republican governor of Alabama--a woman, Kay Ivey--can appoint Moore's replacement on a temporary basis and a new special election will almost certainly result in a Republican taking the seat.  (If a child molester can win in Alabama just by being a Republican, I'm pretty sure a non-molester Republican will prove reasonably electable.  Unless the Alabama electorate was more impressed by his treatment of women than by his Republicanism.)
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: YABO713 on December 08, 2017, 04:34:28 PM
I didn't know there was a statute of limitations on truth and reconciliation. Well, maybe for the Democrat party. I can understand why they want to sweep the past under the rug. Sad.

.... So then we should pursue credible claims of sexual abuse against children that are 40 years old....
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: E Rocc on December 08, 2017, 07:53:50 PM
Moore's stories have more holes than swiss cheese but blind tribalists will find the minor inconsistency in one small part of the accusations and magnify tham.  But that's what tribalists do.

well, maybe you're right. That is what tribalists do --except sometimes those inconsistencies aren't so "minor," are they?

Feminists gave up the high ground in the Bill Clinton era; they can't get it back

by Noemie Emery | Oct 24, 2017, 12:10 AM 

http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/feminists-gave-up-the-high-ground-in-the-bill-clinton-era-they-cant-get-it-back/article/2638413

This is kind of correct.  If Monica Lewinsky hadn't saved "evidence", she'd be discussed along with Paula Jones.
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: E Rocc on December 08, 2017, 07:58:02 PM
Yeah, the whataboutism is atrocious. Looked awful on the Dems too for the beginning of the Conyers and Franken scandal, but at least those pinko-libs have come around in that regard.



But they really have lost nothing. Conyers' and Franken's seats will be filled (first by appointment and then most likely by special election) by like-minded candidates, since like-minded people are in power to make those appointments.

How does this not apply in Alabama?  The governor of Alabama is a Republican.  The electorate of Alabama is heavily Republican.  If the Republicans want, they could move to deny Moore his seat if he wins.  I still seriously hope they do, though I'm sure that hope is in vain.  If they do, the Republican governor of Alabama--a woman, Kay Ivey--can appoint Moore's replacement on a temporary basis and a new special election will almost certainly result in a Republican taking the seat.  (If a child molester can win in Alabama just by being a Republican, I'm pretty sure a non-molester Republican will prove reasonably electable.  Unless the Alabama electorate was more impressed by his treatment of women than by his Republicanism.)

As I've said, the Alabama GOP chairwoman is a Facebook friend.   She usually talks up their candidates, including Trump.  She hasn't posted a word about Moore. 

There may still be something in the works.   I've heard the way Alabama's election system works, if they withdraw their nomination then if he wins the election it's invalid.

This is a effing mess.  Jones really is that bad, except on guns.
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: freefourur on December 08, 2017, 08:34:45 PM
Moore's stories have more holes than swiss cheese but blind tribalists will find the minor inconsistency in one small part of the accusations and magnify tham.  But that's what tribalists do.

well, maybe you're right. That is what tribalists do --except sometimes those inconsistencies aren't so "minor," are they?

Feminists gave up the high ground in the Bill Clinton era; they can't get it back

by Noemie Emery | Oct 24, 2017, 12:10 AM 

http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/feminists-gave-up-the-high-ground-in-the-bill-clinton-era-they-cant-get-it-back/article/2638413

This is kind of correct.  If Monica Lewinsky hadn't saved "evidence", she'd be discussed along with Paula Jones.

And Anita Hill etc etc etc.
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: DarkandStormy on December 08, 2017, 10:47:28 PM
Yeah, the whataboutism is atrocious. Looked awful on the Dems too for the beginning of the Conyers and Franken scandal, but at least those pinko-libs have come around in that regard.



But they really have lost nothing. Conyers' and Franken's seats will be filled (first by appointment and then most likely by special election) by like-minded candidates, since like-minded people are in power to make those appointments. As as far as having regrets about Bill Clinton, it's all just too little, and way too late. The Democrats can do nothing now about the shameful way they remained silent when his disgraceful behavior first came to light, instead attempting to shame the women who were Clinton's victims--the very type of sexual abuse victims they now profess to safeguard and seek justice for. It's just an elaborate dog-and-pony show for them.

The President has been accused by 19 women of sexual misconduct.

Your party is actively endorsing a child molester.

Get off your high horse.
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: Cleburger on December 09, 2017, 06:39:01 PM
And Trump, ever the slime-bag, had to hold his rally 20 miles from the Alabama border so he could cover his ass no matter how the election turns out.  He's such a loser. 
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: KJP on December 09, 2017, 10:07:12 PM
Ex-congressional Republican and Breitbart spokesperson Kurt Bardella says he’s leaving the GOP over its support of Roy Moore, will become a Democrat: “This is not a party that is trustworthy enough to protect innocent children from sexual predators.” https://t.co/N7xaozrsMt
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: KJP on December 10, 2017, 01:34:19 PM
In the last ten seconds of this video, Roy Moore speaks superb Russian.

No, I’m not kidding.

https://t.co/GDCdmvaNhS
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: freefourur on December 10, 2017, 08:23:31 PM
Roy Moore in 2011: Getting rid of amendments after 10th would 'eliminate many problems'

http://www.cnn.com/2017/12/10/politics/kfile-roy-moore-aroostook-watchmen/index.html

He said this on an anti-American conspiracy theory program.
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: DarkandStormy on December 11, 2017, 09:10:31 AM
Roy Moore in 2011: Getting rid of amendments after 10th would 'eliminate many problems'

http://www.cnn.com/2017/12/10/politics/kfile-roy-moore-aroostook-watchmen/index.html

He said this on an anti-American conspiracy theory program.

Add this to:

Quote
-alleged child molester
-fairly-widely known "creep" (at best) / pedo
-believes gay people should be locked up simply for being gay
-believes Muslims should not be allowed to serve in the U.S. Congress
-honors the Bible over the U.S. Constitution, even as a public servant
-Co-authored a course as recently as 2011 contending that women should not be allowed to run for public office
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: freefourur on December 11, 2017, 09:25:56 AM
Roy Moore in 2011: Getting rid of amendments after 10th would 'eliminate many problems'

http://www.cnn.com/2017/12/10/politics/kfile-roy-moore-aroostook-watchmen/index.html

He said this on an anti-American conspiracy theory program.

Add this to:

Quote
-alleged child molester
-fairly-widely known "creep" (at best) / pedo
-believes gay people should be locked up simply for being gay
-believes Muslims should not be allowed to serve in the U.S. Congress
-honors the Bible over the U.S. Constitution, even as a public servant
-Co-authored a course as recently as 2011 contending that women should not be allowed to run for public office

Also believes America was great during slavery
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: YABO713 on December 11, 2017, 09:27:34 AM
So we all just going to ignore the fact that he admitted to knowing at least 4 of the accusers immediately after the accusations and now denies knowing any of them...
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: freefourur on December 11, 2017, 09:28:59 AM
^ nothing matters anymore. Senate seats are too important to worry about truth and facts.  Jesus would want it that way.
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: DarkandStormy on December 11, 2017, 09:31:10 AM
So we all just going to ignore the fact that he admitted to knowing at least 4 of the accusers immediately after the accusations and now denies knowing any of them...

Honestly, there's so much ****iness to Roy Moore I can't keep up on a daily basis.  It hurts my soul.

https://news.vice.com/story/why-these-alabama-voters-are-sticking-by-roy-moore

Why these Alabama voters are sticking by Roy Moore

^That's a ~7 minute clip on Republican voters who think Roy Moore's accusers are being paid to lie.  In a more "normal" state (just about any other state in this country) Roy Moore would have already been forced to step down or would be polling below 30%.  He has a chance to win tomorrow.

http://www.newsweek.com/after-roy-moore-accused-sexual-assault-pro-trump-group-sends-12-year-old-743798

Quote
A political group backing President Donald Trump has sent a 12-year-old girl to interview embattled Alabama Republican Senate contender Roy Moore.

The America First Project published a video Sunday that showed Millie March—who rose to fame at the age of 11 during the 2016 election due to her support for Donald Trump—interviewing Moore as part of his campaign for election in Alabama.
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: YABO713 on December 11, 2017, 09:36:55 AM
^ He doesn't have a chance to win, he's likely*** to win.

I think the only shot Doug Jones has is if the establishment GOP voters in Alabama get behind that curtain and go with a write-in vote.
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: freefourur on December 11, 2017, 09:41:41 AM
My favorite part of the Vice piece is the women who says that she dated an older man when she was 16 and had never told anyone about it.  Then a few minutes later she says "why did these women wait 40 years to come forward?" 
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: DarkandStormy on December 11, 2017, 09:48:57 AM
^ He doesn't have a chance to win, he's likely*** to win.

I think the only shot Doug Jones has is if the establishment GOP voters in Alabama get behind that curtain and go with a write-in vote.

http://thehill.com/homenews/364221-alabama-newspapers-urge-conservatives-to-write-in-republican-senate-candidate
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: freefourur on December 11, 2017, 09:50:30 AM
The fact that Moore will likely win tells me all I need to know about the "good" people of Alabama. 
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: TBideon on December 11, 2017, 10:14:08 AM
Plenty of Alabamans are horrified by the prospect of this animal winning; it's just that there are a handful more typical anti-liberal, anti-education, anti-gay, anti-woman, pro-ignorance voter out there. Thankfully a couple generations from now, they and their backwards ideologies will be dead - this is just a blip in the overall evolution of the country and morality in general. The one good thing about Moore (an extension of Trump and the Republican/conservative party as a whole) is that it really does expose conservatives as undeniable hypocrites, and younger generations will not forget.

Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: KJP on December 11, 2017, 12:39:42 PM
Wow
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: edale on December 11, 2017, 01:29:54 PM
Plenty of Alabamans are horrified by the prospect of this animal winning; it's just that there are a handful more typical anti-liberal, anti-education, anti-gay, anti-woman, pro-ignorance voter out there. Thankfully a couple generations from now, they and their backwards ideologies will be dead - this is just a blip in the overall evolution of the country and morality in general. The one good thing about Moore (an extension of Trump and the Republican/conservative party as a whole) is that it really does expose conservatives as undeniable hypocrites, and younger generations will not forget.

Yes, they will.
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: DarkandStormy on December 11, 2017, 03:41:01 PM
https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2017/12/8/16754470/roy-moore-campaign-talking-points-debunk-sexual-allegations

These people are disgusting.
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: DarkandStormy on December 11, 2017, 03:41:42 PM
Do you believe Emerson polling (Moore +9)? https://www.realclearpolitics.com/docs/Emerson_College_Alabama_Dec_11.pdf

Or Fox News (Jones +10)? http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2017/12/11/fox-news-poll-enthused-democrats-give-jones-lead-over-moore-in-alabama.html
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: 327 on December 11, 2017, 05:27:50 PM
Plenty of Alabamans are horrified by the prospect of this animal winning; it's just that there are a handful more typical anti-liberal, anti-education, anti-gay, anti-woman, pro-ignorance voter out there. Thankfully a couple generations from now, they and their backwards ideologies will be dead - this is just a blip in the overall evolution of the country and morality in general. The one good thing about Moore (an extension of Trump and the Republican/conservative party as a whole) is that it really does expose conservatives as undeniable hypocrites, and younger generations will not forget.

The nature of conservative belief is that it's always been around.  It's the default.  It's not a blip, we're the blip.  History is a series of small blips catching on. 
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: DarkandStormy on December 12, 2017, 09:09:37 AM
Today is election day in Alabama.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/kayla-moore-anti-semitism-claims-034332383.html

Quote
Moore’s wife sought to address the backlash on Monday. “Fake news would tell you that we don’t care for Jews,” Kayla Moore said. “I tell you all this because I’ve seen it also; I just want to set the record straight while they’re here. One of our attorneys is a Jew. We have very close friends who are Jewish and rabbis, and we also fellowship with them.”

Moore and his wife are using the "we have black friends" defense to explain away their Antisemitism.

https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/everything-you-need-to-know-about-alabamas-senate-election/

https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/what-the-hell-is-happening-with-these-alabama-polls/

Midterm elections are hard to poll - special elections even more.  That's why you have Fox with Jones +10 and Emerson with Moore +9 in the last couple days.
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: freefourur on December 12, 2017, 09:27:31 AM
So Steve Bannon, an elitist former Goldman Sachs trader, goes to Alabama and makes fun of Joe Scarborough for going to University of Alabama.  Bannon is a Harvard and Georgetown alum but the Alabamians eat it up.  I just don't get it. 
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: YABO713 on December 12, 2017, 10:40:11 AM
In the words of Sir Charles Barkley... It is time to stop looking like idiots to the rest of the country.

C'mon Alabama, be on the right side of history today.
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: freefourur on December 12, 2017, 10:41:47 AM
In the words of Sir Charles Barkley... It is time to stop looking like idiots to the rest of the country.

C'mon Alabama, be on the right side of history today.

They won't be on the right side of history because they're Alabama.  They always have to be dragged into the future.  We should let them secede.
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: YABO713 on December 12, 2017, 10:42:46 AM
^I have never once prayed before an election. I prayed last night. A life-long Conservative, praying for a Dem (a moderate at that) to win. What a time
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: freefourur on December 12, 2017, 10:52:30 AM
^ he won't win. but I will get to hang the Roy Moore noose on all of the family values, pro-constitution conservatives.  Yabo, we you are welcome in the Democratic party.  You can bring a conservative/moderate voice and help move the party in your direction.  The GOP is lost.  They are not a conservative party.
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: DarkandStormy on December 12, 2017, 10:57:35 AM
The GOP is lost.  They are not a conservative party.

Sure they are.  They want to "conserve" the Constitution as of 1791.  You know, without women or black suffrage.
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: YABO713 on December 12, 2017, 10:59:57 AM
^ he won't win. but I will get to hang the Roy Moore noose on all of the family values, pro-constitution conservatives.  Yabo, we you are welcome in the Democratic party.  You can bring a conservative/moderate voice and help move the party in your direction.  The GOP is lost.  They are not a conservative party.


Irony bites me in the a**, I was a registered Democrat until 2012. But, I am going to stay independent. The GOP has lost its soul, and the Dems have lost a grip on what is important to most Americans. I would vote for Doug Jones if I could, and I will certainly vote for Sherrod Brown over Mandel or Gibbons and I will support Dettelbach over Yost.

But I supported Portman over Strickland as well.

The downside with me now is that I fear even moderate GOP members will get sucked into the soulless vacuum of populism or face losing their seat. The same goes for many Dems, just not to as significant a degree.

Right now Dem>Gop to me, but I will remain Independent until one of the parties grows the hell up.
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: freefourur on December 12, 2017, 11:06:40 AM
Remember that Dems are now the big tent party.  The GOP is beginning to want to be a "pure" party.  It looks like they are moving to a theocratic, white nationalist populist platform.  The Dems seem to be able to each maintain their own beliefs in the face of the hard left fringe.
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: surfohio on December 12, 2017, 11:13:37 AM
The Dems seem to be able to each maintain their own beliefs in the face of the hard left fringe.

I think you're correct. Though I'd argue that both parties are doing so not out of some deep philosophical belief system, but merely because they view it as their best tactic for winning elections.

Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: Brutus_buckeye on December 12, 2017, 11:15:41 AM
Both parties are leaving a huge gap in the middle of the reasonable level headed portion of the population. It used to be the leadership of each came from the middle. Now the influences on both parties are coming from the lunatic fringe.
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: DarkandStormy on December 12, 2017, 11:16:35 AM
I think you're correct. Though I'd argue that both parties are doing so not out of some deep philosophical belief system, but merely because they view it as their best tactic for winning elections.

Doug Jones is running as a pro-choice, gun-owning Democrat in Alabama.
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: DarkandStormy on December 12, 2017, 11:17:08 AM
Both parties are leaving a huge gap in the middle of the reasonable level headed portion of the population. It used to be the leadership of each came from the middle. Now the influences on both parties are coming from the lunatic fringe.

Who are the leaders of the Democrat party and how are they "lunatic fringe?"
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: YABO713 on December 12, 2017, 11:18:39 AM
Both parties are leaving a huge gap in the middle of the reasonable level headed portion of the population. It used to be the leadership of each came from the middle. Now the influences on both parties are coming from the lunatic fringe.

Who are the leaders of the Democrat party and how are they "lunatic fringe?"

I know dems hate to admit this.... But Bernie Sanders is the figurehead of the party right now. I don't care that there is an (I) next to his name.
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: Brutus_buckeye on December 12, 2017, 11:25:27 AM
^ Nancy is a bit Loony too. She always has been. It is just that when you have nutjobs like Bernie and Liz "Pocohantas" Warren she gets overshadowed.

However as far as leadership goes. I will say Ryan, McConnell, Schumer, and Pelosi  are at least pragmatic in their leadership regardless of their political leanings. They have a tough task keeping their lunatic fringe in line with the more reasonable thinkers of their parties.
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: DarkandStormy on December 12, 2017, 11:41:32 AM
^ Nancy is a bit Loony too. She always has been. It is just that when you have nutjobs like Bernie and Liz "Pocohantas" Warren she gets overshadowed.

1) Stop parroting the racist comment of Pocahontas.  It makes you like petty.

2) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_positions_of_Elizabeth_Warren

Elizabeth Warren is hardly a "nut job."  Some folks on the right might like her anti-TPP stance as well as her opposition to outright legalization of marijuana.  What of her positions makes her a "nut job" to you?
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: TBideon on December 12, 2017, 11:55:07 AM
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5169223/Moore-dismisses-accusations-explains-left-town.html

Let's be honest, if there were a gas leak in the building, America would be far better off.
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: Cleburger on December 12, 2017, 11:56:39 AM
Moore just rode to his polling station on a horse to vote.   So many jokes here....
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: Brutus_buckeye on December 12, 2017, 11:58:36 AM
^ There is nothing racist about calling her Pocahantas. Insulting, yes, but racist no. Time to stop with that narrative, we have already proven it a false narrative on other threads.

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/racism
https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/racist

Lets quit conflating it with something that it isn't. It is a personal insult against someone who lied about her heritage to gain stature. It is not a knock on Native Americans.
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: freefourur on December 12, 2017, 12:00:26 PM
^ It is racist.  Stop.  Nothing has been proven.
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: YABO713 on December 12, 2017, 12:02:48 PM
^ Why don't you both just agree to disagree and end it.
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: Ram23 on December 12, 2017, 12:55:07 PM
Roy Moore arrives at polling place on horseback to vote for himself in special election

http://www.macon.com/news/nation-world/national/article189320314.html#fmp

Former Alabama state judge Roy Moore arrived at his polling station, the Gallant Fire Department, just after 11:30 a.m. eastern time Tuesday.

He showed up on horseback, riding his horse named “Sassy.”


(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DQ3D9zLWkAAOHID.jpg)
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: Gordon Bombay on December 12, 2017, 01:00:50 PM
Very cool. Did he ride the horse to the high school too?
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: Cleburger on December 12, 2017, 01:02:31 PM
Or were their hitchin' posts at the mall? 
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: mu2010 on December 12, 2017, 01:02:47 PM
Is he sexually attracted to the horse too?
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: edale on December 12, 2017, 01:03:36 PM
^ There is nothing racist about calling her Pocahantas. Insulting, yes, but racist no. Time to stop with that narrative, we have already proven it a false narrative on other threads.

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/racism
https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/racist

Lets quit conflating it with something that it isn't. It is a personal insult against someone who lied about her heritage to gain stature. It is not a knock on Native Americans.

It's a racially based insult, is it not? Maybe it doesn't meet the Oxford definition of racism, but it's a clearly racist remark. Imagine calling someone of German heritage Hitler, or a black man Kunta Kinte or something. It's messed up and you know it. But who gives a shit about Native Americans anyways, right? gtfoh
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: E Rocc on December 12, 2017, 01:08:13 PM
^ Nancy is a bit Loony too. She always has been. It is just that when you have nutjobs like Bernie and Liz "Pocohantas" Warren she gets overshadowed.

1) Stop parroting the racist comment of Pocahontas.  It makes you like petty.

2) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_positions_of_Elizabeth_Warren

Elizabeth Warren is hardly a "nut job."  Some folks on the right might like her anti-TPP stance as well as her opposition to outright legalization of marijuana.  What of her positions makes her a "nut job" to you?

There’s so many of us on the right who favor outright legalization that it’s almost not a leftist cause anymore.

It’s correctly “Fauxohontas”, referring to the suspicious nature of her claim to Amerind ancestry.
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: Brutus_buckeye on December 12, 2017, 01:19:45 PM
^ It is racist.  Stop.  Nothing has been proven.

No it is not racist. It has been proven such. Claiming that is just a manufactured talking point on the left which you are all willing to go along with because  you happen to be sympathetic to her politics. Let's call it what it is.
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: freefourur on December 12, 2017, 01:22:05 PM
Nothing has been proven.  Pretending something isn't racist doesn't make it so.
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: freefourur on December 12, 2017, 01:22:56 PM
If Pocahantas is merely and insult, then explain the nature of the insult.
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: Sir2geez on December 12, 2017, 01:27:55 PM
It's racist. Pretty simple to me. Calling someone who claims to be Native American "Pocohantas" is petty and racist. Like someone said up thread, it's like calling a black man Kunta Kinte
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: DarkandStormy on December 12, 2017, 01:29:43 PM
Anyway, @Brutus_buckeye - you never responded as to why you find Warren a "nutjob."
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: Brutus_buckeye on December 12, 2017, 01:48:47 PM
If Pocahantas is merely and insult, then explain the nature of the insult.

Its an insult because he is calling her a fraud. It is saying she held herself up as a Native American to gain tenure and then once she achieved her goal, she quietly dropped those references. It is debatable whether she has Native American ancestry but by calling her Pocahantas, he is essentially forcing her to own up to the fact she held herself up to be a Native American when it was in her best interests and dropped that claim when it suited her best interests later in life.  That is why it is not racist.

It's racist. Pretty simple to me. Calling someone who claims to be Native American "Pocohantas" is petty and racist. Like someone said up thread, it's like calling a black man Kunta Kinte

Not quite. I challenge you to educate yourself on what a racist statement is. Just because you read it somewhere on ThinkProgress or DailyKos does not make the statement accurate. You are allowed to think for yourself on things once in a while.

There is a key difference between a racist statement where you undermine a specific race (i.e. calling someone an "Indian giver" is a racist term because it not only is an insult to the person it is called but it also insults them in a way that demeans the heritage and culture of Native Americans as it implies Native Americans are not honest people in general) whereas, calling someone Pocahantas is not racist because it does not demean Native American heritage but rather references a popular character from history that in general carries no negative connotations about Native Americans as a culture as a whole. It does not disparage Native Americans and only insults the person on who it is intended for. This is the key difference.
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: Sir2geez on December 12, 2017, 02:12:14 PM
^Dailykos, ThinkProgress...I don't read those sites. I'm telling you as a black man if someone called me Kunta Kinte there would be problems. Calling Warren Pocahontas is racist and petty.
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: Brutus_buckeye on December 12, 2017, 02:18:01 PM
Petty yes. Insulting yes. Racist no. 
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: YABO713 on December 12, 2017, 02:19:59 PM
So we can end this Warren debate and get back on topic, she is far left, especially for the Senate:

1. Will not vote to approve any pro-life Judicial nominees
2. $15/hr minimum wage
3. Supports state's compelling Churches to accept money for contraceptives
4. Supports transgender bathroom reform in grade schools (this is a mainstream topic admittedly, but it's an aggressive stance re: kids)
5. Unionizing fast food and part time service workers
6. A clear path for citizenship for any illegal here who is not a threat and hasn't committed a crime.

Mind you, I am conservative, so I know those appear more liberal to me than they may to you. I would also be remiss if I didn't note that she has done a good job compromising in the past - see Glass Steagall reform. But, she is still VERY liberal.
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: DarkandStormy on December 12, 2017, 02:20:17 PM
Delete - meant for Brutus
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: Ram23 on December 12, 2017, 02:20:32 PM
You guys better all hope that Warren doesn't get the presidential nomination in 2020 because if the left exerts this much effort trying to label her assigned nickname as "racist," Democrats will lose middle America in yet another landslide. 
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: freefourur on December 12, 2017, 02:28:02 PM
First of all she won't be the nominee so it's all pointless.  But let's get back to the real nut job that will be in the Senate aka the subject of this thread.
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: Brutus_buckeye on December 12, 2017, 02:36:35 PM
At this point the best hope for GOP is that Moore wins and then the Republicans in the Senate have enough balls to refuse to seat him and make him go back to Alabama after not being able to be seated. THis can teach voters a lesson not to vote for complete clown shows.

This is obviously not the ideal scenario by any means but the only avenue the GOP has left to salvage something out of this.
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: KJP on December 12, 2017, 02:36:59 PM
The GOP is lost.  They are not a conservative party.

Sure they are.  They want to "conserve" the Constitution as of 1791.  You know, without women or black suffrage.

During an appearance on a conspiracy-driven radio show in 2011, Alabama Senate candidate Roy Moore said getting rid of the amendments after 10th would "eliminate many problems" http://cnn.it/2nMKyN3

By the way....

The 13th amendment abolished slavery.
The 15th gave all races the right to vote.
The 19th gave women the right to vote.
The 24th abolished poll taxes.

Just in case you wondered about the importance of today's election.
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: freefourur on December 12, 2017, 02:37:26 PM
At this point the best hope for GOP is that Moore wins and then the Republicans in the Senate have enough balls to refuse to seat him and make him go back to Alabama after not being able to be seated. THis can teach voters a lesson not to vote for complete clown shows.

This is obviously not the ideal scenario by any means but the only avenue the GOP has left to salvage something out of this.

LOL. at any Republicans in Congress growing a spine.
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: DarkandStormy on December 12, 2017, 03:16:23 PM
So we can end this Warren debate and get back on topic, she is far left, especially for the Senate:

1. Will not vote to approve any pro-life Judicial nominees
2. $15/hr minimum wage
3. Supports state's compelling Churches to accept money for contraceptives
4. Supports transgender bathroom reform in grade schools (this is a mainstream topic admittedly, but it's an aggressive stance re: kids)
5. Unionizing fast food and part time service workers
6. A clear path for citizenship for any illegal here who is not a threat and hasn't committed a crime.

Mind you, I am conservative, so I know those appear more liberal to me than they may to you. I would also be remiss if I didn't note that she has done a good job compromising in the past - see Glass Steagall reform. But, she is still VERY liberal.

1. This isn't "extreme."  More Americans identify as pro-choice than pro-life (50-44, according to Gallup).  It is also law according to the Supreme Court under the 14th Amendment (Roe v. Wade).
2. How is this extreme? https://www.cnbc.com/2016/07/21/adjusted-for-inflation-the-federal-minimum-wage-is-worth-less-than-50-years-ago.html "Despite periodic increases, the buying power of the federal minimum wage hasn't kept up with inflation, according to the Bureau of Labor Statistics. Data show that in 1968, the federal minimum was equivalent to $10.90 in 2015 dollars, nearly $4 higher than today's rate."

So now wanting minimum wage to keep up with inflation is "extreme?"  Come on.

3. Not sure where this was explicitly said, but I assume this is related to birth control being covered by employers?  If churches are going to take the stance of "pro life" (which is fine) because they don't fetuses aborted, it's a bit hypocritical to not provide contraceptives and birth control to help ensure unwanted pregnancies don't occur.  You can't scream about abortions and then do nothing to help make sure those unwanted pregnancies don't happen in the first place.

4. https://www.vox.com/2016/5/5/11592908/transgender-bathroom-laws-rights

If you can find any claim anywhere that any of the enacted bathroom laws caused harm, I'll listen. 
Quote
In two investigations, Media Matters confirmed with experts and officials in 12 states and 17 school districts with protections for trans people that they had no increases in sex crimes after they enacted their policies.

Quote
But as PolitiFact reported, none of the examples cited in the US happened after a city or state passed a nondiscrimination law or otherwise let trans people use the bathroom or locker room for their gender identity.

5. I can't find this specific claim.  But now unions, which 6 in 10 Americans support, are "extreme?"

6. From Pew -
Quote
Our June survey found that a large majority of Republicans (70%) think it would be better for the U.S. economy if undocumented immigrants became legal workers. About as many (69%) said undocumented immigrants are “hard workers who should have an opportunity to stay” in the United States.” And fully 76% say it would be unrealistic to deport everyone in the country illegally.

Quote
As many Republicans as Democrats say they’d vote for a law that allowed unauthorized immigrants to eventually become citizens provided that they first fulfill a list of requirements. A Gallup poll conducted June 15-16 found that 86% of Republicans – the same percentage as that of Democrats, said they would back legislation allowing immigrants living illegally in the U.S. to become citizens after a long waiting period if they paid taxes and a penalty, passed a criminal background check, and learned English. The New York Times noted that polls that describe the many requirements an unauthorized immigrant would have to satisfy before gaining citizenship find higher GOP support than polls that do not mention the requirements in detail, or at all.

So how is DACA extreme? Or allowing law-abiding immigrants a path to citizenship?

Sorry, many of those "extreme" points are views held by a majority of Americans, in some cases a "super majority" at that.
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: KJP on December 12, 2017, 03:16:39 PM
Making the rounds on Twitter. If this is true, the Koch Brothers have revealed themselves to be an even worse enemy of democracy than I'd thought....

~Heads up! DISINFORMATION ALERT !!
#VoterSuppression
EVERYONE SHARE ACROSS FACEBOOK, ETC.
"http://AlabamaVotes.org " is Koch Brothers FAKE website !!
Send voters to "http://AlabamaVotes.gov " to find out where they go to vote.
Please Retweet
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: DarkandStormy on December 12, 2017, 03:18:09 PM
http://www.al.com/news/index.ssf/2017/12/in_final-hour_order_court_rule.html

Quote
Alabama is allowed to destroy digital voting records created at the polls during today's U.S. Senate election after all.

Oh, good.
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: Gramarye on December 12, 2017, 03:19:42 PM
It's racist. Pretty simple to me. Calling someone who claims to be Native American "Pocohantas" is petty and racist. Like someone said up thread, it's like calling a black man Kunta Kinte

No, it would be like calling a white man who falsely claimed to be a black man Kunta Kinte.  It doesn't make it tasteful or tactful by any means, but that's still the proper analogy to consider, and it certain ought to cast the mockery in a different light.
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: freefourur on December 12, 2017, 03:20:22 PM
^ and still racist.
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: Gramarye on December 12, 2017, 03:22:51 PM
Why are you so intent on fighting so hard to take almost all the sting out of the word "racism?"  Seriously, do you not understand that that's the effect you're having?  And that the dilution of such words like racism and sexual assault is one thing that enables people like Moore?
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: freefourur on December 12, 2017, 03:24:16 PM
^ Why are you fighting so hard to to make things that are racist not racist.  It's racist.  It's an insult because it's racist.
Moore is POS racist and the only that ones him are dumb republicans.  Don't put his ignorance on me.
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: eastvillagedon on December 12, 2017, 03:25:30 PM
It's racist. Pretty simple to me. Calling someone who claims to be Native American "Pocohantas" is petty and racist. Like someone said up thread, it's like calling a black man Kunta Kinte

No, it would be like calling a white man who falsely claimed to be a black man Kunta Kinte.  It doesn't make it tasteful or tactful by any means, but that's still the proper analogy to consider, and it certain ought to cast the mockery in a different light.

we had real life example of this: Rachel Dolezal. She's about as much African-American as Elizabeth Warren is Native American.
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: Brutus_buckeye on December 12, 2017, 03:28:46 PM
^ and still racist.

Its racist only in your mind and in the progressive snowflake arenas of the world. To the real world and normal Americans, they see it as an insult to Warren and Warren alone.
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: freefourur on December 12, 2017, 03:31:11 PM
Are the normal americans the yokels that vote for kid diddlers?  I want to make sure who we are talking about here.  Or are the normal Americans the super smart people that think a spoiled "billionaire" is a non-elite?  Please enlighten me on "normal"
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: DarkandStormy on December 13, 2017, 09:39:41 AM
Donald Trump lost not once but twice in Alabama.  First, he endorsed Luther Strange.  Then he backed Roy Moore.

https://www.nytimes.com/elections/results/alabama-senate-special-election-roy-moore-doug-jones

Doug Jones defeated Roy Moore by 21,000 votes.

Roy Moore spokesperson literally left speechless by Jake Tapper:
http://www.cnn.com/videos/politics/2017/12/12/roy-moore-campaign-spokesman-swearing-on-bible-tapper-lead.cnn
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: surfohio on December 13, 2017, 09:42:16 AM
Anyone else think that Moore's lawyer being "........a Jew!" may have cost him the election?

Scandalous!

Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: YABO713 on December 13, 2017, 09:43:45 AM
His gardener was a Mexican so Roy is pretty much a certified cholo!

Also, note how she referred to him as "A Jew" and not "Jewish"... big difference.
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: surfohio on December 13, 2017, 09:48:48 AM
His gardener was a Mexican so Roy is pretty much a certified cholo!

Also, note how she referred to him as "A Jew" and not "Jewish"... big difference.

Ha! But in all seriousness I doubt the Moore's would even allow a Mexican near their house/ranch/trailer/etc.

It was her dramatic pause before "......Jew" where I lost it. Like it was some sort a miraculous thing to be associated with such a person.
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: YABO713 on December 13, 2017, 09:55:10 AM
"Roy's lawyer is.... a Jew! That's right, you heard it here first, and let me spell it out for you... Roy's lawyer is a J-O-O Jew."
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: DarkandStormy on December 13, 2017, 10:05:19 AM
Happy Hanukkah to Roy Moore's lawyer!
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: YABO713 on December 13, 2017, 10:18:37 AM
The Onion killed it today.. "Roy Moore loses Senate Seat but stays positive: Looks forward to spending time with other people's kids."
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: Pablo on December 13, 2017, 10:28:42 AM
^So did the NY Daily News:
"Screw You & Horse You Rode In On" "Teen-loving Moore loses Alabama race in big blow to Trump"
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: TBideon on December 13, 2017, 10:40:25 AM
His gardener was a Mexican so Roy is pretty much a certified cholo!

Also, note how she referred to him as "A Jew" and not "Jewish"... big difference.

Eh, that depends on the person. It's like "A Christian" (predicate nominative) vs "Christian" (predicate adjective). Just depends on a person's sensitivity and the tone of how "Christian" or "Jew" is pronounced.

Also, does telling a charming anecdote of Roy Moore going to an underage brothel really inspire voters to believe he isn't a predator? The hell kind of strategy is that? The guy should just eat a bullet (his wife too) and we move on.
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: YABO713 on December 13, 2017, 10:45:32 AM
^ I would say it is more akin to "a person of color" or "a colored person" than the Christian analogy
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: KJP on December 13, 2017, 11:48:04 AM
If black people had voted 68% for a pedophile last night, the media would be spending all day questioning the moral character of black families and communities.

#WhatIsWhitePrivilege
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: DarkandStormy on December 13, 2017, 12:06:46 PM
@GovMikeHuckabee

Roy Moore won’t concede; says will wait on God to speak. God wasn’t registered to vote in AL but the ppl who voted did speak and it wasn’t close enough for recount.  In elections everyone does NOT get a trophy. I know first hand but it’s best to exit with class.
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: Gramarye on December 13, 2017, 12:35:12 PM
Also among the lists of what-ifs the GOP will need to contend with now was the potential of the third potential candidate in the race, Mo Brooks, a House member who is part of the Freedom Caucus and a thorn in McConnell's side (McConnell threw his weight behind forcing Brooks out of the race early to create the runoff between Moore and Strange, which is perhaps understandable given that Brooks' campaign strategy was to make McConnell a punching bag).  That said, Brooks hasn't really been under the microscope like he would have been if he'd survived the first round and gotten into the runoff against Strange, and he ultimately endorsed Moore (which should say a thing or two about his judgment and his political priorities--the GOP should be forgiven for eschewing someone who thinks sticking it to the GOP establishment is more important than even sticking it to the Democrats, to say nothing of advancing principled conservative policy priorities).
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: DarkandStormy on December 13, 2017, 01:52:52 PM
https://shareblue.com/gop-went-all-in-for-pedophilia-and-they-can-never-undo-it/

Quote
Not only did Roy Moore lose Alabama’s Senate race against Doug Jones, but in the process, the Republican Party cemented its status as a safe space for pedophilia.

A moment of moral cowardice will stain the party for years to come.

Despite his sordid past and bigoted present, Moore was able to count on the support of Donald Trump, who used his status as president to aggressively campaign on Moore’s behalf. Trump, who has admitted to sexually assaulting women, was eager to back his fellow Republican, even as credible reports of pedophilia surfaced.

Quote
Thanks to the political maneuvering of its leadership, the linkage of pedophilia and the Republican Party will be cemented, further turning the party that once claimed Abraham Lincoln into one in which serial sexual assault, racism, and now child molestation is no stumbling block in the pursuit of power.

I imagine this is just another instance of why @YABO713 feels politically homeless.
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: YABO713 on December 13, 2017, 02:36:40 PM
https://shareblue.com/gop-went-all-in-for-pedophilia-and-they-can-never-undo-it/

Quote
Not only did Roy Moore lose Alabama’s Senate race against Doug Jones, but in the process, the Republican Party cemented its status as a safe space for pedophilia.

A moment of moral cowardice will stain the party for years to come.

Despite his sordid past and bigoted present, Moore was able to count on the support of Donald Trump, who used his status as president to aggressively campaign on Moore’s behalf. Trump, who has admitted to sexually assaulting women, was eager to back his fellow Republican, even as credible reports of pedophilia surfaced.

Quote
Thanks to the political maneuvering of its leadership, the linkage of pedophilia and the Republican Party will be cemented, further turning the party that once claimed Abraham Lincoln into one in which serial sexual assault, racism, and now child molestation is no stumbling block in the pursuit of power.

I imagine this is just another instance of why @YABO713 feels politically homeless.

lol fact.
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: Ram23 on December 13, 2017, 03:47:29 PM
^^ Roy Moore will be irrelevant in a weeks time - by the next election cycle he will be less significant than the DNC's support of Anything Wiener, and by proxy his wife Huma. I'm actually surprised the DNC didn't make Jones tank at the last second so they could keep playing this card (which, was a pretty good card to play, all things considered). Now they'll just have to go back to bashing Trump in 2018, a strategy that didn't work very well in 2016.
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: YABO713 on December 13, 2017, 04:05:59 PM
^^ Roy Moore will be irrelevant in a weeks time - by the next election cycle he will be less significant than the DNC's support of Anything Wiener, and by proxy his wife Huma. I'm actually surprised the DNC didn't make Jones tank at the last second so they could keep playing this card (which, was a pretty good card to play, all things considered). Now they'll just have to go back to bashing Trump in 2018, a strategy that didn't work very well in 2016.


....And then the guy became President. There is a huge difference between bashing a candidate and bashing a track record in office.
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: westerninterloper on December 13, 2017, 04:53:58 PM
^^ Roy Moore will be irrelevant in a weeks time - by the next election cycle he will be less significant than the DNC's support of Anything Wiener, and by proxy his wife Huma. I'm actually surprised the DNC didn't make Jones tank at the last second so they could keep playing this card (which, was a pretty good card to play, all things considered). Now they'll just have to go back to bashing Trump in 2018, a strategy that didn't work very well in 2016.

Moore was removed from the Alabama Supreme Court several years ago, and then reemerged. He has plenty of supporters in Alabama and across the US. I doubt this is the last we'll hear from him.
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: Cleburger on December 13, 2017, 08:39:23 PM
One thing we won't hear about is Roy Moore filing lawsuits against his accusers.  This will all quietly go away since he won't want all the testimony made public. 
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: E Rocc on December 14, 2017, 05:51:38 AM
@GovMikeHuckabee

Roy Moore won’t concede; says will wait on God to speak. God wasn’t registered to vote in AL but the ppl who voted did speak and it wasn’t close enough for recount.  In elections everyone does NOT get a trophy. I know first hand but it’s best to exit with class.

Well he's not really used to taking "no" for an answer....
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: Hootenany on December 14, 2017, 09:50:49 AM
Apparently Moore is still refusing to concede.  Does that really matter?  Whether he concedes or not Jones will still be seated in the US Senate whenever McConnell decides to allow the democratically elected Senator to serve.  This is really just a matter of etiquette, right?
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: DarkandStormy on December 14, 2017, 01:29:35 PM
https://thinkprogress.org/moore-refuses-to-concede-ad-178dd12e9b93/

Moore has gone off the deep end.  Well, actually, this might be normal for him.
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: DarkandStormy on December 22, 2017, 09:40:02 AM
http://www.businessinsider.com/roy-moore-facebook-posts-not-concede-2017-12

Roy Moore still hasn't conceded and is now going after Doug Jones's son, who is gay.

This is who Donald Trump and the Republican National Committee chose to endorse.  They own that stain forever.
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: YABO713 on December 22, 2017, 09:41:36 AM
http://www.businessinsider.com/roy-moore-facebook-posts-not-concede-2017-12

Roy Moore still hasn't conceded and is now going after Doug Jones's son, who is gay.

This is who Donald Trump and the Republican National Committee chose to endorse.  They own that stain forever.

Something tells me this isn't the first time Roy Moore has pursued a gay man.
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: DarkandStormy on December 22, 2017, 11:21:45 AM
https://twitter.com/calebecarma/status/944213260764577794?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Etweet

Quote
I spoke with James O'Keefe and he said he *actually believes* Roy Moore's accusers, even though he payed a woman to pretend to be a rape victim in a failed effort to discredit the allegations
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: Hootenany on December 22, 2017, 11:26:13 AM
^What the hell is wrong with these people?
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: DarkandStormy on December 22, 2017, 11:29:04 AM
http://money.cnn.com/2017/12/20/media/breitbart-alex-marlow-roy-moore/index.html

Quote
Marlow also stressed that he was personally uncomfortable with the behavior attributed by The Post to Moore, and noted that he did believe the accusations from Leigh Corfman

Breitbart editor admits THEY THOUGHT MOORE WAS A CHILD MOLESTER AND BACKED HIM ANYWAY.  **** these people.
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: KJP on December 28, 2017, 07:42:12 AM
What a d!ck...

Roy Moore files complaint to block Alabama Senate result
http://www.cnn.com/2017/12/28/politics/roy-moore-files-complaint/index.html
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: wpcc88 on December 28, 2017, 09:31:57 AM
What a d!ck...

Roy Moore files complaint to block Alabama Senate result
http://www.cnn.com/2017/12/28/politics/roy-moore-files-complaint/index.html


Are you ok?  Seriously, it's the holiday season and you seem very upset with all these political posts.   
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: KJP on December 28, 2017, 09:58:53 AM
What a d!ck...

Roy Moore files complaint to block Alabama Senate result
http://www.cnn.com/2017/12/28/politics/roy-moore-files-complaint/index.html


Are you ok?  Seriously, it's the holiday season and you seem very upset with all these political posts.   

Thanks for your sincere concern. I'm always upset with American politics. It's a cesspool of inhumanity. But I can always find the humor....

Roy Moore claims to have proof that tens of thousands of underage women voted in the Alabama Senate election.  He is demanding their names, phone numbers, Tinder accounts and parents' work schedules.
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: DarkandStormy on December 28, 2017, 04:28:29 PM
https://twitter.com/josh_weinberg/status/945480986535407616

Quote
wow...according to @JoeTrippi, in the last week of the AL Senate campaign 10,000 bots were generating 65,000 anti-Jones tweets per hour...including the "fake yearbook story"
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: DarkandStormy on January 04, 2018, 09:07:56 AM
(https://www.advocate.com/sites/advocate.com/files/2018/01/03/carson-jones-750x.jpg)
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: DarkandStormy on January 04, 2018, 09:08:30 AM
^For reference, that is the son of Doug Jones, Carson Jones, looking over at Mike Pence.
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: freefourur on January 04, 2018, 09:34:41 AM
he is giving him the malocchio
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: DarkandStormy on January 05, 2018, 03:41:08 PM
http://www.al.com/news/index.ssf/2018/01/roy_moore_accusers_home_burns.html

People are despicable.

Roy Moore accuser's Gadsden home burns; arson investigation underway
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: TBideon on January 05, 2018, 03:58:23 PM
Moore really is the kind of person that doctors and medical personnel should refuse medical care. Let him pray the pancreatic cancer away.
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: KJP on January 07, 2018, 08:46:40 AM
Fire at home of Moore accuser being investigated for arson
http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/367670-fire-at-home-of-moore-accuser-being-investigated-for-arson
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: KJP on January 24, 2018, 10:32:30 PM
When you know that you can’t win by playing by the rules, you change the rules. https://t.co/Od9mnpTpRr
Title: Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
Post by: freefourur on January 24, 2018, 10:34:54 PM
Let it never be forgotten that Trump and the RNC endorsed a credibly accused pedophile.